Should Serini have brought Sunny into Battle?

[Dion]

Sunny seems to have the mental maturity of a child; she doesnt strike as much more than 8 to 10 years old.

Is it really fair for Serini to bring Sunny into a deadly battle? It doesn’t feel right to me.

[hungrycrow]

Sunny seems to have the mental maturity of a child; she doesnt strike as much more than 8 to 10 years old.

Is it really fair for Serini to bring Sunny into a deadly battle? It doesn’t feel right to me.

This is probably the reason Serini didn't try to ambush Xykon. The Order is a bit less dangerous though.

It's hard to guess mental ages. I'd say Sunny acts a lot like early comic Elan, and no one ever questioned bringing him into dangerous battles.

[Ionathus]

I'd agree with the assessment that Sunny seems to be Elan-level of maturity, maybe a little less. Not sure if that's an indicator of being an adolescent, or a point against Elan's faculties :smallbiggrin:

Though, Elan's maturity does fluctuate a little bit depending on the situation. Sometimes it doesn't always "sell" for me: the first panels of #1238, for instance, where Haley's talking to Elan, sound a little too much like Mother-Son dialogue for my tastes.

I can also see Serini being a bit more willing to involve an immature combatant for an "entire world at stake" scenario, if my read on her (Chaotic Neutral) is correct. Not interested in starting the old Serini Alignment Wars up again, just musing that, say, LG Durkon might not involve Sunny were he in Serini's position.

[KorvinStarmast]

It doesn’t feel right to me. I think you are ignoring some context.

1. Serini collected a wide variety of monsters to defend Kraagor's Gate. Deadly, powerful, monsters.
2. Sunny is defending the gate from a threat - that's why he's here in the first place.
3. Thog was also "child like" and was still a competent fighter.
4. Sunny's a freaking beholder. Beholders are powerful monsters. That he's been befriended, taught, and nurtured by Serini (nurture sometimes being greater than nature) over 50-60 years (remember how long it's been since Kraagor died and the Scribblers split up?) may inform how his personality developed.
Sunny isn't "a kid."
5. Sunny is, like Elan, a little bit of an airhead and apparently of friendly disposition. Gee, ya think that may be why Serini calls him Sunny? (Given that he floats, he may be a hydrogen-head or a helium-head). He is also, wait for it, yet another case of BurlewBrand(TM) trope subversion.
6. Elan isn't a kid either; he's been doing adventures that are dangerous for the whole series.

*Jude Judy Voice*
Objection overruled.

[Precure]

In hindsight, Serini's last line (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) was a pretty mean thing to say to someone who calls you "mom".

[KorvinStarmast]

In hindsight, Serini's last line (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) was a pretty mean thing to say to someone who calls you "mom". But in that strip he called her "Boss" rather than 'mom' so I am not sure what that reflects. Need to review the recent strips and get more brain on t his.

OK, I'll guess at "adopted" based on this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html) (Don't call me Mom when we're working => OK, Boss)

Last Thought:

If Sunny is, in fact, the same beholder from strip 0032 (which has 8 eyes) then his relationship with Serini is less than two years old and my idea on their being together for 50-60 years is off base.

[Dion]

It seems mean. Poor Sunny is getting hurt. She’s saying “oww”. She’s acting like an excited and eager 10 year old trying to help.

I’m ok with Xykon and Redcloak exploiting the juvenile MitD, because Xykon and Redcloak are evil, and nobody likes them.

But I want to like Serini, amd her crass exploitation of the juvenile Sunny disturbs me. It makes me not like her as much.

[Rrmcklin]

In hindsight, Serini's last line (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) was a pretty mean thing to say to someone who calls you "mom".

Sunny calling her that isn't the same thing as her reciprocating the feeling.

Anyway, Sunny might be a literal child, but I feel like we should already understand that characters acting or having especially immature quirks is not the same thing as them actually being intended to be read as children or mentally unfit.

[Precure]

Sunny calling her that isn't the same thing as her reciprocating the feeling.

Anyway, Sunny might be a literal child, but I feel like we should already understand that characters acting or having especially immature quirks is not the same thing as them actually being intended to be read as children or mentally unfit.

She said Don't call me Mom when we're working, which means it is acceptable for Sunny to call her mom when they're not working.

[hroþila]

Sunny is more likely to be childish and/or "comic book dumb" than an actual child, but even if they are a child, this is still a fictional fantasy comedy story. It can have children doing dangerous stuff without it necessarily reflecting badly on anyone allowing it, to a point. That child also being a highly competent combatant is one of the things that would probably make it ok in this context.

[RatElemental]

Adults still call their mothers "Mom" all the time, too.

[Precure]

Adults still call their mothers "Mom" all the time, too.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Synesthesy]

I think that while a Beholder is surely an intelligent being, Sunny is more like a talking very smart dog then a talking very smart child (as him being a monster), and you talk to the little pretty Mommy's puppy that way even to big old dogs, why shouldn't they speak back in the same way?

[RatElemental]

What does that have to do with anything?

If people are going to bring up Sunny calling Serini "mom" as evidence of being juvenile or particularly childish, it's pretty relevant that it's pretty normal to call your mom "mom" without being either of those things.

[Blue Dragon]

Yes, she should.

[Rrmcklin]

She said Don't call me Mom when we're working, which means it is acceptable for Sunny to call her mom when they're not working.

Which does not in itself imply that Serini feels the same way, just that she's willing to allow it. The way she's been talking has not generally lead me to believe that she views Sunny in a maternal light. Whether that's just because they're working or not remains to be seen.

[Dion]

Adults still call their mothers "Mom" all the time, too.

True.

But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

Sunny appears to me to be a child.

[Mike Havran]

True.

But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

Sunny appears to me to be a child.We do not know yet whether the crayons were made by Sunny or how old they are.

As for the original question, nobody condemns Roy for hiring Elan even though he is also childish.

[WanderingMist]

This is probably the reason Serini didn't try to ambush Xykon. The Order is a bit less dangerous though.

It's hard to guess mental ages. I'd say Sunny acts a lot like early comic Elan, and no one ever questioned bringing him into dangerous battles.

Bringing him into one battle ended with Roy comparing the pros and cons of getting eaten by a dragon, I'm sure there were some questions raised about bringing Elan into dangerous situations.

[Doug Lampert]

True.

But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html

Sunny appears to me to be a child.

My sister's children are an MD working on a Ph.D. and another Ph.D. student. My sister has crayon drawings from when her children were much younger still on her walls.

IIRC, my mother took down MOST of my childhood scribbles when she and my father moved into their retirement community.

We've seen nothing inconsistent with Sunny being an adult, who went out to look for work a couple of years ago, couldn't get a job because if IP problems in comic 32, and came back home to live with "mom" for a few more years.

[Dion]

We do not know yet whether the crayons were made by Sunny or how old they are.


That’s true, but I’m still making the assumption that the beholder sized bed belongs to the beholder.

And I’m also making the assumption that the crayon drawing of an orange beholder and a half-green humanoid right above the beholder sized bed are meant to represent Sunny and Serini, and also belong to the beholder.

But I leap to conclusions sometimes.

[KorvinStarmast]

We've seen nothing inconsistent with Sunny being an adult, who went out to look for work a couple of years ago, couldn't get a job because if IP problems in comic 32, and came back home to live with "mom" for a few more years.
Yep. When my brother dropped out of law school, he did the same thing for a year or so before he got back on his feet.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd say Sunny's mental maturity could be anywhere from a 10 year old to a 20-something year old. As such, I don't feel like Sunny shouldn't be there unless it is made explicitly clear that Sunny is very young.

[pearl jam]

If we are meant to think that Sunny is too young to appropriately be participating in combat, I'm sure the point will be made much more explicitly.

[Precure]

If people are going to bring up Sunny calling Serini "mom" as evidence of being juvenile or particularly childish, it's pretty relevant that it's pretty normal to call your mom "mom" without being either of those things.

I never said anything about whether I view Sunny as a literal child or not. My main contribution here was calling her mean for saying such a thing to someone who care enough for her to call her "mom".


Which does not in itself imply that Serini feels the same way, just that she's willing to allow it. The way she's been talking has not generally lead me to believe that she views Sunny in a maternal light. Whether that's just because they're working or not remains to be seen.

It's still a mean thing to say whether she accepted Sunny as her child or not. Heck, considering their relationship, it would be mean if Roy said it to Elan.

[Fyraltari]

I never said anything about whether I view Sunny as a literal child or not. My main contribution here was calling her mean for saying such a thing to someone who care enough for her to call her "mom".



It's still a mean thing to say whether she accepted Sunny as her child or not. Heck, considering their relationship, it would be mean if Roy said it to Elan.

I don't see how it is "mean", it's not like she's blaming Sunny for anything.

[Empiar93]

You know, I actually sort of agree, but in a different way; I think the Order, or at least Haley, shouldn’t have been so willing to start harming Sunny. Might have gone a bit of ways to convince Serini that the Order aren’t all too bad:

“I know it’s a monster, but it still seems like a child. Try not to hurt it and go for our invisible attacker if we can!”

I think it was irresponsible to take Sunny into the fight, and it’s also irresponsible of the Order to treat Sunny as a pin cushion.

[pearl jam]

One can always trust the forum to become unduly infatuated with minor side characters at the slightest opportunity. :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

You know, I actually sort of agree, but in a different way; I think the Order, or at least Haley, shouldn’t have been so willing to start harming Sunny. Sunny is the steed of an airborne, invisible enemy who is shooting sharp, pointy, poisoned weapons at the party.
Of course they are going to shoot back.
Also, Sunny is using its/his powers to cast magical/supernatural harmful effects on the characters. It is not nice to try and turn someone into stone.

Have you ever played D&D? I realize that some readers are not D&D players.

[Ionathus]

You know, I actually sort of agree, but in a different way; I think the Order, or at least Haley, shouldn’t have been so willing to start harming Sunny. Might have gone a bit of ways to convince Serini that the Order aren’t all too bad:

“I know it’s a monster, but it still seems like a child. Try not to hurt it and go for our invisible attacker if we can!”

I think it was irresponsible to take Sunny into the fight, and it’s also irresponsible of the Order to treat Sunny as a pin cushion.

I disagree. The Order are caught in an ambush by a powerful, clever attacker and, as far as they can tell, are fighting for their lives. I do not expect them to be weighing the morality of fighting someone who sounds like Elan when their party leader has already been downed by the attackers.

[Empiar93]

Sunny is the steed of an airborne, invisible enemy who is shooting sharp, pointy, poisoned weapons at the party.
Of course they are going to shoot back.
Also, Sunny is using its/his powers to cast magical/supernatural harmful effects on the characters. It is not nice to try and turn someone into stone.

Have you ever played D&D? I realize that some readers are not D&D players.

You do make a good point, but on the other hand, Sunny was initially just an off switch for their magic (i addition to being a flying mount). He didn’t make an attack until the battle had gone on for a few rounds.

And yes, I do play D&D. This is not D&D, as many other forum-users have previously had to remind me, and possibly you, and probably everyone else in this thread. (I’m not being insulting or snarky, promise)


I disagree. The Order are caught in an ambush by a powerful, clever attacker and, as far as they can tell, are fighting for their lives. I do not expect them to be weighing the morality of fighting someone who sounds like Elan when their party leader has already been downed by the attackers.

You bring up a fair point, and now that I think about it, looking back at how Haley acted during DStP, she’s very much a pragmatist before a moralist. Perhaps I should have known better, as her character development has never steered her away from that direction. I think it was more wishful thinking on my part regarding how they can get Serini to stop trying to turn them away.

[dmc91356]

From my perspective, whether it's D&D, a novel, television, a movie, or, heck, the world, anyone who is part of an ambush that involves someone in my group getting shot at with poisoned objects is fair game. If we get to the point where there is no more shooting and there is actual conversing, we can figure out things like motives, etc.

I cannot fault the OOTS at all for trying to take out the only visible enemy, no matter what that person has said or how the words might reflect on them, given everything else that has taken place.

[KorvinStarmast]

You do make a good point, but on the other hand, Sunny was initially just an off switch for their magic (i addition to being a flying mount). When your enemy is mounted and is attacking you, attacking their mount makes sense.


And yes, I do play D&D. This is not D&D,
It is based on D&D, though, otherwise the spells and monsters don't make sense, nor does Rich's entire conceit that 'it ain't easy being green' (the Redcloak motivation) have any context.

(I’m not being insulting or snarky, promise)
No snark received. :smallbiggrin: Thanks.

[Fyraltari]

nor does Rich's entire conceit that 'it ain't easy being green' (the Redcloak motivation) have any context.

I present to you: most of the fantasy genre.

[Jason]

Serini is literally trying to prevent the world from being destroyed by a soul-devouring god-slaying abomination. In her view, Sunny is already being endangered by anyone who may attempt to destroy the gate, like the paladins and the Order of the Stick. Leaving Sunny out of a fight is not going to protect him (her? It?) if the Snarl gets loose because Serini didn't have Sunny's firepower backing her up. Desperate times and all that.

[Ionathus]

Serini is literally trying to prevent the world from being destroyed by a soul-devouring god-slaying abomination. In her view, Sunny is already being endangered by anyone who may attempt to destroy the gate, like the paladins and the Order of the Stick. Leaving Sunny out of a fight is not going to protect him (her? It?) if the Snarl gets loose because Serini didn't have Sunny's firepower backing her up. Desperate times and all that.

Though of course, there is always the risk that they succeed and stop the destruction of the world...but Sunny dies. Worse yet, the risk that it's not even a close match – that Serini gets Sunny killed but she didn't even need her in the first place.

Sure Sunny will 100% die if the world is destroyed, and anything's better than those odds, but it might not be an A/B outcome - there could be something in the middle.

[Jason]

Though of course, there is always the risk that they succeed and stop the destruction of the world...but Sunny dies. Worse yet, the risk that it's not even a close match – that Serini gets Sunny killed but she didn't even need her in the first place.

Sure Sunny will 100% die if the world is destroyed, and anything's better than those odds, but it might not be an A/B outcome - there could be something in the middle.
These are the risks, yes, and the tipping point in Serini's logic appears to be that Sunny is a CR13 (when mature) beholder with 11 hit dice, 26 AC, and a smorgasbord of magic eye beams, not a child of some other species that wouldn't contribute much to a fight.

One wonders how old Mimi is too.

[RatElemental]

Though of course, there is always the risk that they succeed and stop the destruction of the world...but Sunny dies. Worse yet, the risk that it's not even a close match – that Serini gets Sunny killed but she didn't even need her in the first place.

Sure Sunny will 100% die if the world is destroyed, and anything's better than those odds, but it might not be an A/B outcome - there could be something in the middle.

"Sunny dies" isn't even the worst possible outcome. The worst possible outcome is "Sunny lives, but the gate is destroyed, and Sunny's soul is annihilated by the snarl." To Serini, involving Sunny in the fight is probably the best way to avert that outcome, one way or another.

[hungrycrow]

Serini has Sunny call her boss, and the "bottoms up" move seems like a rehearsed maneuver. It doesn't seem like Serini is reluctantly bringing Sunny in as a last ditch effort; more like she considers him an actual member of her defenses.

[Forum Explorer]

Serini has Sunny call her boss, and the "bottoms up" move seems like a rehearsed maneuver. It doesn't seem like Serini is reluctantly bringing Sunny in as a last ditch effort; more like she considers him an actual member of her defenses.

Very much this. Regardless of how parental Serini may or may not be, it's clear that she's actively training Sunny (and perhaps others) to fight.


"Sunny dies" isn't even the worst possible outcome. The worst possible outcome is "Sunny lives, but the gate is destroyed, and Sunny's soul is annihilated by the snarl." To Serini, involving Sunny in the fight is probably the best way to avert that outcome, one way or another.

To be fair, Sunny dying needs not be permanent. There's no reason Raise Dead couldn't be used on a Beholder.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Knowing the author, I think the fact that he's in combat at all can be taken to mean he's an adult in most important senses.


But do you know what adults *don’t* do? They don’t tape up their crayon drawings above their bed, like in panel 3:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.htmlWe can't see them well, that fact that we don't see detail from across the room doesn't mean there isn't detail. Or maybe Sunny (lacking hands) has trouble with the fine motions of art.

Or also, consider the situation: No internet, tv, fresh books, or fresh company; I think an adult might eventually find a box a crayons very interesting.

Yep. When my brother dropped out of law school, he did the same thing for a year or so before he got back on his feet.Also, leaving home upon maturity is strictly a cultural thing.

Especially when circumstances don't allow the young adult to create a comparable home. Like a mixed species family in the north pole, or royals (why hasn't prince Charles gone off and started his own kingdom yet?).

[Liquor Box]

People are ok with more intelligent than usual animal companion combatants, like the bugbear's wolf - who might have a similar level of cognitive capacity. I don't think there's too much to worry about in bringing a beholder with limited mental capacity into combat, especially if Serini thinks the circumstances are dire. For someone willing to kidnap one group and now attack another without any apparent provocation, I don't think it really registers.

[RatElemental]

People are ok with more intelligent than usual animal companion combatants, like the bugbear's wolf - who might have a similar level of cognitive capacity. I don't think there's too much to worry about in bringing a beholder with limited mental capacity into combat, especially if Serini thinks the circumstances are dire. For someone willing to kidnap one group and now attack another without any apparent provocation, I don't think it really registers.

Grayview is not a slightly more intelligent wolf, he's a worg. Worgs are magical beasts that have an int of 6 and are capable of speech without any outside help.

[Liquor Box]

Grayview is not a slightly more intelligent wolf, he's a worg. Worgs are magical beasts that have an int of 6 and are capable of speech without any outside help.

So comparable to how people perceive the beholder then?

[Bookwyrm13]

I do wonder why everyone keeps assigning gender pronouns to Sunny despite none being used in the strip so far. Have we learned nothing from V? :smallwink:

As for the actual question, honestly, probably not, but I imagine she might not have thought the Order was much of a threat--especially since they'd be completely out of magic if everything had gone according to her plan. Not that that justifies it necessarily, but I imagine a whatever-alignment-Serini-is Rogue weighed the risks and rewards and figured it would turn out okay.

Or, as others have rightly pointed out, she views it as a necessary risk to protect the Gate.

[KorvinStarmast]

So comparable to how people perceive the beholder then? Not hardly. Beholders tend to have high intelligence (greater than 11) but the intelligence is usually classified as alien. As they are not in the 3.5 srd, I'll not be able to cite you a number. In 2e they were "exceptional (15-16) and in 5e they are 17. I'll guess that 3.5's closer to 17 than 15. (Anyone who has 3.5 material can confirm or correct that).

I do wonder why everyone keeps assigning gender pronouns to Sunny despite none being used in the strip so far. Have we learned nothing from V? :smallwink: +1 to your point: beholder is a different species, isn't humanoid, and perhaps gender isn't even a thing for beholders.

[Liquor Box]

Not hardly. Beholders tend to have high intelligence (greater than 11) but the intelligence is usually classified as alien. As they are not in the 3.5 srd, I'll not be able to cite you a number. In 2e they were "exceptional (15-16) and in 5e they are 17. I'll guess that 3.5's closer to 17 than 15. (Anyone who has 3.5 material can confirm or correct that).

I meant this particular beholder, who this thread has suggested is less switched on than most (perhaps due to being young)

[Jason]

Not hardly. Beholders tend to have high intelligence (greater than 11) but the intelligence is usually classified as alien. As they are not in the 3.5 srd, I'll not be able to cite you a number. In 2e they were "exceptional (15-16) and in 5e they are 17. I'll guess that 3.5's closer to 17 than 15. (Anyone who has 3.5 material can confirm or correct that).
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18 , Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15, Knowledge (Arcana) +17 and very high Search and Spot (+21 and +22), usually Lawful Evil and CR13 for the MM beholder. Beholder dispositions are described as "hateful", "aggressive," "avaricious," and "xenophobic."

+1 to your point: beholder is a different species, isn't humanoid, and perhaps gender isn't even a thing for beholders.
3.5 beholders are indeed gender neutral biologically, according to Lords of Madness, and they reproduce asexually. Individual beholders like the Xanathar that have lots of dealings with other races have been referred to with gendered pronouns in the past ("he" in the case of the Xanathar).

[Psyren]

Sunny seems to have the mental maturity of a child; she doesnt strike as much more than 8 to 10 years old.

Is it really fair for Serini to bring Sunny into a deadly battle? It doesn’t feel right to me.

Tactically, without Sunny's AMF cone and FTS beam they would have bodied her in three rounds tops. Her poison bluff that worked on Lien wouldn't work on the Order, with two means of removing poison and possibly even the ability to identify it and thus call her bluff, neither of which the paladins had.

Now, as far as whether she was morally justified to use Sunny in a fight, everyone is going to have a different line they draw for that question I suspect.

[JonahFalcon]

I might want to add Serini befriended a beholder, who are canonically lawful evil violently paranoid monsters.

[Peelee]

I might want to add Serini befriended a beholder, who are canonically lawful evil violently paranoid monsters.

In Stickworld? Citation needed.

[elros]

According to Forgotten Realms (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Beholder), beholders reproduction cycle often left abandoned offspring, so I suspect Serini adopted one that was abandoned. I don't think Sunny is dumb, just naive and overly trusting.

[Fergie0044]

On the positive side, Serini does appear to care and value Sunny with comments such as "You doing OK?" and "You're taking too much fire". Given how prepared and competent she's been so far I'd guess Serini has a good grasp of how much punishment Sunny can take before it gets serious. Plus, as others have pointed out, from Serini's point of view Sunny (and the world) will be destroyed by the god eating horror if they fail.

[SkepticalSquid]

I feel like we need to take into account that this is taking place in a fantasy world. While bringing a child (if Sunny is a child) into a fight in real life would be unethical, in this world battle are much more frequent. What are the odds that Sunny, not just a resident of this world, but also a creature that most humanoids would immediately see as hostile, would be able to go their entire life without seeing battle? Serini may feel that it's part of her duty as Sunny's guardian to teach them to handle themself in a fight, because of the high likelihood that Sunny will be in a fight later in life.

It feels almost analogous to, in the real world, a parent teaching a child how to drive a car. Cars are dangerous, accidents are frequent, but in some parts of the world it is necessary to drive a car to go about your daily life (or, at least, it is much easier to live if you can drive). So, in those parts of the world, parents will teach their kids to drive so the kid will be prepared to some day drive a car alone. Some parents start teaching earlier than others. Sure, the legal age to start learning is 15 in my state, but growing up I had classmates at 10 or so who would brag about their parents letting them take the wheel on empty roads or off-road on a large property. I'm guessing that other people in the US have had similar experiences.


This is probably the reason Serini didn't try to ambush Xykon. The Order is a bit less dangerous though.
I agree with this. Serini could be curating fights that she thinks Sunny is ready for, so they can practice. It's like how when learning to drive, you often start in an empty parking lot, rather than going straight to a busy freeway.


Serini does appear to care and value Sunny with comments such as "You doing OK?" and "You're taking too much fire". Given how prepared and competent she's been so far I'd guess Serini has a good grasp of how much punishment Sunny can take before it gets serious.
This also reads to me like Serini is trying to teach Sunny. Serini thinks Sunny is ready for this fight, but is checking in with them, letting them know that she's paying attention to the situation. Unfortunately, fighting will be an inevitable part of Sunny's life, so Serini likely thinks that at least Sunny can learn how to fight back in a controlled environment, with Serini for backup.