Eloquence Bard Build Suggestions?

[Verble]

I had planned for a character for an upcoming game would be an Abberant Soul Sorcerer/Eloquence Bard multiclass, however the DM may have decided against multiclassing at all after being exposed to some powerful builds by other players. I like strong and interesting mechanics and often multiclass but I wouldn't quite classify myself as a 'Min Maxer' though the DM has called me such. And I am here looking for your thoughts, so maybe he's not wholly wrong.

We usually start characters around levels 2-5 and I'm trying to put together my rough idea of the character. Obviously this is subject to change during the Session 0 as I'm looking for my character to be a party face, control and debuff type with access to thieves tools. The character is sort of a spy and propagandist for the nation that exiled him. I took some inspiration from Garak of Star Trek DS9 if that helps.

Now I had my character mostly planned out as a bard/sorcerer and I'm trying to reconfigure him to work as a single class Eloquence Bard. Our rolled stats tend to be pretty high so I am more open to taking interesting feats as mentioned below. In the setting we are using there are some spells and cantrips added. One that I get from my homebrew race is

Pummelstone -60 ft range
Make a ranged spell attack as you create and hurl a chunk of stone. On a hit deal 1d6 bludgeoning and the target must roll a d4 when it makes an attack roll or ability check during it's next turn, subtracting the result of the d4 from the attack or check roll

This is similar enough to vicious mockery that I'd just not take VM at all. I may not even use an instrument and just defer to a component bag(unless it's one of the Instruments of the Bard). I won't be taking Performance as a skill. I would probably take prestidigitation and minor illusion for bard cantrips, but I would really like access to Mind Sliver(great debuff on top of my unsettling words debuff)and another setting cantrip called Puff of Smoke

Puff of Smoke - 30ft range
Bonus action
Target makes a Dex save or be blinded until the start of your next turn.

Which is very cool as a bonus action cantrip, meaning I can use it pretty often(basically most of the time I'm casting cantrips or doing anything besides inspiring allies or casting leveled spells). It would also allow me or my allies advantage to attack the target(the great support I'm going for).

Mind Sliver and Puff of Smoke are not on the bardic spell list however, so I'm looking at taking Magic Initiate: Sorcerer at level 4, gaining those two cantrips and a first level spell. I'm a bit divided between mage armor, absorb elements, and shield. As a pure bard I get light armor and may take the Moderately Armored feat for medium armor plus shield, so mage armor is probably out. Shield spell would definitely get more use and protect my squishyness but my AC is likely to be so low that even a +5 from the shield spell might not help(until I get medium armor and shield). Absorb Elements seems really great but it didn't seem to come up very often in previous games. Since I get a free casting of the spell I'm leaning towards the shield spell. Any other spells worth considering?

Besides Magical Initiate I am also interested in Moderately Armored, Inspiring Leader, and Resilience: Constitution. There's a chance I may be able to start with an 18 Charisma so I may only need one ASI to max it. Won't know for sure until we roll up our characters. I know maxing the casting stat is often suggested to be taken first but I'd probably take the Magical Initiate feat first and maybe even Moderately Armored at 8 instead of a +2 Cha.

When I was looking at the bard with sorcerer dip I gained 4 first level spells known for Aberrant Sorcerer(arms of hadar, dissonant whispers, absorb elements, and shield). This helped shore up my defenses as a mid range character and left me free to take Command, Healing Word, Bane, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter as bard spells.

Changing to single class bard I'm looking at this for first level spells I want

Command,
Healing Word,
Bane,
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Dissonant Whispers
And possibly Detect Magic or Comprehend Languages depending on the other classes that people choose. Comprehend Languages really comes into its own at level 6 where it allows me to understand others and the Eloquence Bard ability allows me to make other creatures understand me so I can make use of my powerful persuasion and deception skills(I'll be unable to get below a 17 assuming a 16 Charisma).
Also as a bard I can use Comprehend Languages as a ritual which might make it worthwhile to keep.

My last character was a cleric and I loved the Bless spell to help my melee heavy party so I'm curious to see how helpful Bane might be, particularly when combined with the Mind Sliver and Unsettling Words debuff to make it harder for enemies to make the save. I see great potential here as a controller/debuffer.

I haven't sat down and looked at second levels spells I'd like yet as I still have no idea what level we'd be starting at yet. Anything stick out for spells I'd want? I have used hold person to great effect in the past even without Mind Sliver to weaken enemy saving throws.

I'm committed to this homebrew race(a version of Dragonborn) which grants me resistance to acid, proficiency in persuasion, the Pummelstone cantrip and +2 Cha/+1 Con (we don't use Tasha's stat swaps). My skills are persuasion from race, Deception, arcana, and insight from Bard class and Perception and history from his background. Deception and Persuasion will be expertised. History isn't ideal mechanically but it does suit his background as a high born individual who twists the truth of historical events. Maybe Deception would represent that better? I'm pretty okay with it.

Any feedback you folks can offer on my concepts above(feats/spell selection) or Eloquence Bards in general? Any magic items that would support my build concept? I'm thinking now I should remind the DM that while this character will Excell at social encounters but that high rolls don't guarantee success. Just so he doesn't think I'm breaking the game or anything.

[RogueJK]

Mind Sliver can be tough to utilize efficiently, unless your character has access to the Quickened Spell metamagic, or the party contains another save-based caster with whom you can work in tandem. Unsettling Words is a much more efficient save debuff, from an action economy standpoint.

Yes, your Bard with Magic Initiate could potentially stack Bane, Unsettling Words, and Mind Sliver on one enemy for a big negative to one save-or-suck spell. But that would take three entire rounds to set up. Plus, most save-or-suck spells are Concentration, which is already taken up by Bane in that scenario. And Mind Sliver works on the very next save the enemy makes, so you'd better hope that the enemy isn't subjected to any save effect between the 2nd and 3rd round.

Like I said, not very efficient.

Personally, between Unsettling Words for immediate use in the same turn that you cast your save-or-suck spell that you really want to stick, and access to Bane for times when you want debuff a group over the course of a whole combat, I wouldn't bother with spending a feat to get Mind Sliver too. Instead, spend that feat on Metamagic Adept, to get a bit of the Sorcerer that you're missing due to not being able to multiclass. Even though it only gets you a couple Sorcery Points, a couple Subtle Spells per day is very handy for a spy/propagandist/manipulator, for sneaky use of spells like Suggestion, Dominate Person, etc.

[meandean]

If your DM thinks you're a min-maxer and doesn't like it, is it really gonna help if you're a single-class character... in a very powerful class/subclass (undoubtedly one appropriate for your character concept, but still super-powerful)... who takes a feat that replicates the class in which you would otherwise multiclass... and who uses a homebrew race and spells?

Just as another way to look at it (and, I admit, ignoring some of the things that you explicitly said you wanted), consider a simpler character that still fits your basic concept without as many bells and whistles. You could be e.g. a changeling Rogue, or a (pick any pre-existing +CHA race) Warlock with Mask of Many Faces. My overall concern is that being on the same page as your DM is more important than optimization.

[KorvinStarmast]

My overall concern is that being on the same page as your DM is more important than optimization. + thirty three. :smallsmile:
Straight eloquence bard will do fine.

[Verble]

Mind Sliver can be tough to utilize efficiently, unless your character has access to the Quickened Spell metamagic, or the party contains another save-based caster with whom you can work in tandem. Unsettling Words is a much more efficient save debuff, from an action economy standpoint.


A fair point, I still like Mind Sliver + Puff of Smoke as way to weaken saves and blind an enemy in the same turn.




Yes, your Bard with Magic Initiate could potentially stack Bane, Unsettling Words, and Mind Sliver on one enemy for a big negative to one save-or-suck spell. But that would take three entire rounds to set up. Plus, most save-or-suck spells are Concentration, which is already taken up by Bane in that scenario.


It was never my intent to stack all three. While I was curious how Bane would do(having never used it) especially compared to Bless which I've found very helpful. Bane would likely get swapped out as I level and get better concentration spells. Its just a bit different than Faerie Fire that I've taken on previous bards. If the party goal is to focus fire on a big baddie I'd lay down Unsettling Words and hit them with a Hold Person(for example) and follow up on my next turn with Mind Sliver and Puff of Smoke(depending if there are other casters flinging spells).




And Mind Sliver works on the very next save the enemy makes, so you'd better hope that the enemy isn't subjected to any save effect between the 2nd and 3rd round.


This does depend on other characters and their own abilities. I'm trying to juggle ideas.




Personally, between Unsettling Words for immediate use in the same turn that you cast your save-or-suck spell that you really want to stick, and access to Bane for times when you want debuff a group over the course of a whole combat, I wouldn't bother with spending a feat to get Mind Sliver too.


I really want both Puff of Smoke and Mind Sliver, and Shield. Bane is mainly for loser level spell slot use. As I get better concentration spells I'd likely drop Bane and keep my low level slots for Healing Word or Shield.



Instead, spend that feat on Metamagic Adept, to get a bit of the Sorcerer that you're missing due to not being able to multiclass. Even though it only gets you a couple Sorcery Points, a couple Subtle Spells per day is very handy for a spy/propagandist/manipulator, for sneaky use of spells like Suggestion, Dominate Person, etc.

That's a good point. I'd meant to lean on my high persuasion and deception skills(I don't like Charm Person letting the target know they'd been charmed). I had definitely thought about picking up Suggestion so I'll consider the feat.



If your DM thinks you're a min-maxer and doesn't like it, is it really gonna help if you're a single-class character... in a very powerful class/subclass (undoubtedly one appropriate for your character concept, but still super-powerful)... who takes a feat that replicates the class in which you would otherwise multiclass... and who uses a homebrew race and spells?


The Spells are actually from a 3rd party setting book. Some of the races are from the setting and some are translated from older editions. But I take your point.

My original idea would be to ask him if he's open to me making my case for allowing multiclassing but I thought it would be better to just concede this as a mark of respect for him DMing. It would also mean getting bard abilities sooner and we rarely play into tier 3 or 4.



Just as another way to look at it (and, I admit, ignoring some of the things that you explicitly said you wanted), consider a simpler character that still fits your basic concept without as many bells and whistles. You could be e.g. a changeling Rogue, or a (pick any pre-existing +CHA race) Warlock with Mask of Many Faces. My overall concern is that being on the same page as your DM is more important than optimization.

The last character I played was an Arcana Cleric, one before that was an Arcane Trickster/GOO Warlock who made good use of Mask of Many Faces. One of the goals with the Bard was to actively be the party face as I'm a bit shy about improv play and it would force me to work on that. It also let me play a less damaging type of character which I was curious to do.


+ thirty three. :smallsmile:
Straight eloquence bard will do fine.

I'm probably overplanning. I think I'm just excited by the character.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm probably overplanning. I think I'm just excited by the character.
I am frequently guilty of that. I love that you are excited to play the character. Have fun! :smallbiggrin: