Unleash Incarnation

[carrdrivesyou]

Just a quick clarification...

The Echo Knight ability states that "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position."

I assume that this means you can only take this additional attack once per attack action? As in, you couldn't just spam your uses of the ability in one turn?

Is it safe to assume that Action Surge and Haste also grant the chance to use this ability?

[clash]

By reading it I would say your right on both accounts. Whenever you take the attack action on your turn you can make one additional attack. So limited to one per attack action but both action surge and haste can give you an additional attack action. A hasted action surging echo knight at level 5 could make 8 attacks without using their bonus action.

[Unoriginal]

Just a quick clarification...

The Echo Knight ability states that "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position."

I assume that this means you can only take this additional attack once per attack action? As in, you couldn't just spam your uses of the ability in one turn?

Is it safe to assume that Action Surge and Haste also grant the chance to use this ability?

Any time you take the Attack action, the echo gets an attack. Abilities that let you do more than one Attack action let tge echo do just as many attacks.

[Hytheter]

Action Surge allows an extra usage but Haste does not because the spell specifies that you can only make one attack with the action it grants.

[clash]

Action Surge allows an extra usage but Haste does not because the spell specifies that you can only make one attack with the action it grants.

The echo action isn't part of the attack action. I read it as in addition to so not limited by haste. I can see both interpretations though.

[RogueJK]

Haste allows you to use your special additional action to take the Attack action, just with a limitation on the number of attacks specifically granted by that Attack action (basically excluding Extra Attack from applying to Haste's additional Attack action). But that special Haste-granted Attack action can still be used to activate other separate abilities that rely on taking the Attack action to then trigger additional attacks, like Unleash Incarnation, Polearm Master, Two Weapon Fighting, Gloomstalker Dread Ambusher, etc. Haste's restrictions have no effect on those additional attacks from other sources, only on the number of attacks granted by Haste's Attack action alone.

Note that there are other things in some cases that would limit additional attacks. For example, PAM/TWF require you to use your Bonus Action for the additional attack, and even with Haste you still only have one of those per turn. So you couldn't Attack + BA PAM + Haste Attack + BA PAM in one turn since that would require two Bonus Actions, but you could Cast a Spell + Haste Attack + BA PAM in one turn, or Dodge + Haste Attack + BA PAM, using the Haste Attack action alone to trigger PAM. It's still the Attack action.

And because Unleash Incarnation doesn't require a limited resource like your Bonus Action to activate, you could therefore Attack + Unleash Incarnation + Haste Attack + Unleash Incarnation all in one turn.

Similarly, a Hasted Gloomstalker could benefit from the additional attack from Dread Ambusher twice in the first round of combat, since like Unleash Incarnation it is triggered by taking the Attack Action but doesn't require your to expend a limited resource like your Bonus Action. So you can Attack + Dread Ambusher Attack + Haste Attack + Dread Ambusher Attack.

[Hytheter]

The echo action isn't part of the attack action. I read it as in addition to so not limited by haste. I can see both interpretations though.

Nonsense.

"Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo's position."

That's pretty cut and dried to me.

[RogueJK]

You're overlooking that Haste gives you an additional action, which can be used to take the Attack Action a second time in one turn. It's still the Attack Action.

You're a Level 6 Echo Knight that's Hasted. On your turn you take the Attack Action. Then "whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo's position." So that's 1 Attack + 1 Extra Attack + 1 Echo Attack.

You then use your Haste action to take the Attack action, which is limited to 1 weapon attack in that Attack action due to the wording of Haste's Attack action, thereby excluding your normal Extra Attack from applying. Still, "whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo's position." So that's 1 Attack + 1 Echo Attack

In total, you'd get 2 Weapon Attacks (Regular and Haste) + 1 Weapon Extra Attack + 2 Echo Attacks in your turn.

[Hytheter]

I understand how the interaction is supposed to work. What I don't understand is how you think Unleash Incarnation, an additional attack made when you make the attack action, is somehow not part of the Attack action.

[clash]

I understand how the interaction is supposed to work. What I don't understand is how you think Unleash Incarnation, an additional attack made when you make the attack action, is somehow not part of the Attack action.

Extra attack says

"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

It replaces the one attack in the attack action with 2. It redefines the attack action specifically. Unleash incarnation allows an additional attack after taking the attack action rather than changing the number of attacks taken during it. That's how I see it.

[Hytheter]

Extra attack says

"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

It replaces the one attack in the attack action with 2. It redefines the attack action specifically. Unleash incarnation allows an additional attack after taking the attack action rather than changing the number of attacks taken during it. That's how I see it.

Extra Attack redefines and Unleash Incarnation modifies. It's still the same action.

Would you otherwise expect the ability to say "You can make two attacks instead of one, but one of them has to be from the echo's position" and then go on to describe the specific number of attacks you have with each level of extra attack? That would be ridiculous. It obviously makes more sense to just say it grants an additional attack.

[PhantomSoul]

Extra attack says

"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

It replaces the one attack in the attack action with 2. It redefines the attack action specifically. Unleash incarnation allows an additional attack after taking the attack action rather than changing the number of attacks taken during it. That's how I see it.

I think it's definitely in DM territory; I interpret it as being part of the Attack Action (but written in a way to allow it to be compatible with Extra Attack, Fighter-boosted or not) given I would expect them to clarify if it weren't part of the same Action, which means it lets you do things you can normally do requiring an Attack Action unless they're explicitly incompatible. Haste gives a limitation, and the "specific vs. general" would seem to favour Haste (this Attack Action has a restriction not shared by other Attack Actions), but there I think it's entirely a DM call.

[Spiritchaser]

I understand how the interaction is supposed to work. What I don't understand is how you think Unleash Incarnation, an additional attack made when you make the attack action, is somehow not part of the Attack action.

The text does not define it as part of the attack action. Why would you presume to conflate the original trigger and the allowed attack from unleash incarnation?

Even if you did combine them (and we shouldn’t) the echo ability is equally (if not more) absolute in its wording, and equally, (if not more) specific in its scope of application.

The very worst we could say is that if we were to read in language that does not exist, then it would be unclear if it was ok to make the unleash incarnation attack using the hasten attack action as a trigger.

[PhantomSoul]

The text does not define it as part of the attack action. Why would you presume to conflate the original trigger and the allowed attack from unleash incarnation?


Why assume it's not part of the Action when it doesn't say otherwise and when it says "when" (like Extra Attack!)? It's not like it said it's a bonus action, a reaction or that there was no action required!

[CMCC]

To add to the questions here: if you’re a ranged fighter, can you take your two Ranged attacks, draw your melee weapon and attack with that via unleash incarnation?

I don’t see issues with that other than using your free action mid attack action, which should be fine.

[MrStabby]

I think it works with action surge but not Haste.

If it said that when you make the attack action your echo can also make an attack, I would say its fine (apart from the rules carage that would entail). As it specifies YOU are making the attack, but from the echo's position I think it doesn't work.

That said, there might be some leeway around your one attack from Haste being the one made from the echo position.