balance - Ranger w/ smite

[da newt]

Do y'all think there would be any balance issue with giving the Ranger class their own version of divine smite? (yes this will 'step on the toes' of Paladins - taking their signature thing, but otherwise I think it has potential)

Something like Nature's Might:
Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a weapon Attack (max 30' range), you can expend one spell slot to deal acid/cold/fire/lightning/thunder damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage (you choose the damage type when you gain this feature and can change the damage type when you level up). The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8.

Rangers are often archers, so it doesn't make sense for this feature to be melee only, but it would probably be OP if it's range wasn't limited. In order to counter the benefit of increased range, the damage type is more often resisted, and the extra damage die for some creature types is removed.

I think this simple addition could put the class roughly on par with the other 1/2 caster classes. Thoughts?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Do y'all think there would be any balance issue with giving the Ranger class their own version of divine smite? (yes this will 'step on the toes' of Paladins - taking their signature thing, but otherwise I think it has potential)

Something like Nature's Might:
Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a weapon Attack (max 30' range), you can expend one spell slot to deal acid/cold/fire/lightning/thunder damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage (you choose the damage type when you gain this feature and can change the damage type when you level up). The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8.

Rangers are often archers, so it doesn't make sense for this feature to be melee only, but it would probably be OP if it's range wasn't limited. In order to counter the benefit of increased range, the damage type is more often resisted, and the extra damage die for some creature types is removed.

I think this simple addition could put the class roughly on par with the other 1/2 caster classes. Thoughts?

Honestly, I'd probably start with the damage in d6s instead of d8s. Beyond that, while I agree with you that Rangers are lacking, numbers aren't the biggest problem that they face.

[Sorinth]

Personally I'd rather a Ranger smite serve a different purpose. Since many Ranger spells/abilities are AoE focused I'd probably go in that direction. For something simple I would do 1d8 or even 1d6 per spell level but have it deal that damage to any creature of your choice within 5ft of the target. So overall less single target damage but an AoE effect so possibly more damage overall.

[KorvinStarmast]

Do y'all think there would be any balance issue with giving the Ranger class their own version of divine smite? I'd recommend a different damage boost. Let smite remain with Paladins.

In AD&D, Rangers had a damage boost equal to their level against the giant class creatures.

For this edition, I'd reskin that as a damage bonus to their favored enemy equal to their proficiency bonus.

With Tasha's beginning to assign a few more things 'based on proficiency bonus' it will probably scale OK, if not perfectly. Hunter already has a bonus to damage when they use Colossus Slayer (and some chances for damage boosts with Giant Killer and Horde Breaker) so for the Hunter it might be a greater boost than with other sub classes.

(If anyone has already tried this, how did it work out?)

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd recommend a different damage boost. Let smite remain with Paladins.

In AD&D, Rangers had a damage boost equal to their level against the giant class creatures.

For this edition, I'd reskin that as a damage bonus to their favored enemy equal to their proficiency bonus.

With Tasha's beginning to assign a few more things 'based on proficiency bonus' it will probably scale OK. Hunter already has a bonus to damage when they use Colossus Slayer (and some chances for damage boosts with Giant Killer and Horde Breaker) so for the Hunter it might be a greater boost than with other sub classes.

Honestly, I'm super divided on TCoE having more things based off of proficiency modifier. It's a definite buff to multiclassing that it didn't further need, and a direction that I dislike.

On the other hand, it's a slowly scaling number that helps define the tiers of play, giving you more usage the tougher things get.

[J-H]

For this edition, I'd reskin that as a damage bonus to their favored enemy equal to their proficiency bonus.

This is what I have in my houserule set. I also allow the level 20 capstone to apply to all attack rolls against favored enemies, not just once per round.

[luuma]

Is the current ranger still lacking? They look like they're doing fine, to me, and I'd be perfectly happy to play one. In combat they do at least as well as a rogue does imo

All I think they really need is free access to ritual caster and maybe the ability to add new favored terrains/foes with 8 hours study

[Man_Over_Game]

Personally, I'd avoid adding another blanket damage buff option.

Melee combat is inherently a lot more complex and intricate due to Opportunity Attacks, Reach, and managing risk. Having a simple +X damage buff is fair, because it's already a lot to consider.

Ranged combat, on the other hand, is spamming the same attack again and again while moving enough distance away to avoid direct engagement. It's straightforward and fairly bland over time.

If the Ranger got anything like a ranged Divine Smite, I think it should focus more on utility than damage, like make it a piercing shot that either pins the target to an object they're adjacent to or it shoots through the target after hitting or missing to hit another target behind them in a line. Really, anything that adds more gameplay to ranged combat would be excellent.

Yet another extra damage option can be obtained a dozen other ways with the Ranger. The fact that it's difficult to build a Ranger that doesn't have a random 1dX damage boost on an attack is already kinda stupid.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is what I have in my houserule set. I also allow the level 20 capstone to apply to all attack rolls against favored enemies, not just once per round. If we ever get to 20, I'll suggest that ... but I don't see my campaign that has a ranger getting there. Ever.

[Man_Over_Game]

If we ever get to 20, I'll suggest that ... but I don't see my campaign that has a ranger getting there. Ever.

Could always do something that scaled well with level that you got early on.

Like "The first attack you make each round against a Favored Enemy is made with Advantage. If both rolls are less than your Ranger level, the attack is considered a critical hit".

[luuma]

Could always do something that scaled well with level that you got early on.

Like "The first attack you make each round against a Favored Enemy is made with Advantage. If both rolls are less than your Ranger level, the attack is considered a critical hit".

Lovely houserule - especially since ranger is pretty much the only core class in the game without a feature that gives flat benefits as it levels. I'd maybe just change it to "the first attack you make each combat is made with..." just so it doesn't have the old favoured enemy problem of screwing up encounter balance for a certain set of foes and doing nothing elsewhere.

[Witty Username]

Personally, I'd avoid adding another blanket damage buff option.

Melee combat is inherently a lot more complex and intricate due to Opportunity Attacks, Reach, and managing risk. Having a simple +X damage buff is fair, because it's already a lot to consider.

Ranged combat, on the other hand, is spamming the same attack again and again while moving enough distance away to avoid direct engagement. It's straightforward and fairly bland over time.

If the Ranger got anything like a ranged Divine Smite, I think it should focus more on utility than damage, like make it a piercing shot that either pins the target to an object they're adjacent to or it shoots through the target after hitting or missing to hit another target behind them in a line. Really, anything that adds more gameplay to ranged combat would be excellent.

Yet another extra damage option can be obtained a dozen other ways with the Ranger. The fact that it's difficult to build a Ranger that doesn't have a random 1dX damage boost on an attack is already kinda stupid.

So like ensnaring strike, but as a class feature?

[Kane0]

Just dropping in to remind that Searing Smite is now on the Ranger spell list thanks to Tashas

[Man_Over_Game]

So like ensnaring strike, but as a class feature?

Possibly. Could make it like a "Pinning Strike" which grapples/prones the target on a failed DC (Ranger spell save or the damage of the attack, whichever's higher). The grapple effect is isolated to their position, it breaks like any other grapple. Doesn't cost a Bonus Action :)

If it was going to focus on damage, I'd make it something that pays attention to positioning, to create a new dynamic to ranged combat, but also something that can be relevant in melee combat. Which is tricky.

Could make it something like "Double Strike: Once on your turn, you can attack a second enemy as you attack a first, as long as they're both the same distance from you. Crossbows instead add a weapon die to one damage die".

I dunno, just spitballing, might be stupid, kinda high right now

[MrStabby]

Honestly, I'd probably start with the damage in d6s instead of d8s. Beyond that, while I agree with you that Rangers are lacking, numbers aren't the biggest problem that they face.

I think that this perfectly sums up the situation for me.

There is a gulf between ranger and paladin but it isn't the raw amount of damage that generates that issue. The problem is that the paladin gets bucket loads of stuff on top of its very respectable tanking abilities.

Powerful auras, channel divinity, cleansing touch... lots of abilities that don't even use up any of the other resources. That and more good class specific spells.

My advice would be: if you want to add a ranger ability, don't make it do damage and Don't make it use an existing resource.

[Witty Username]

Hm, how about you get a number of bear claw traps each day equal to your wisdom modifier, on trigger they do 2d8 slashing/piercing damage and restrain the target until they make successful strength check, action to set?

[MrStabby]

Hm, how about you get a number of bear claw traps each day equal to your wisdom modifier, on trigger they do 2d8 slashing/piercing damage and restrain the target until they make successful strength check, action to set?

They stick to the sugary confectionary? Though poison damage seems more appropriate.

[Man_Over_Game]

One solution could be to make something that would benefit from both Ranger and Druid multiclassing, similar to how Divine Smite works really well with Sorcerer levels.

For instance, you could have something like "While you are Concentrating on a spell, you get a bonus to your hit and damage rolls equal to the spell slot, up to 1/2 of your Ranger level."

[quindraco]

Do y'all think there would be any balance issue with giving the Ranger class their own version of divine smite? (yes this will 'step on the toes' of Paladins - taking their signature thing, but otherwise I think it has potential)

Something like Nature's Might:
Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a weapon Attack (max 30' range), you can expend one spell slot to deal acid/cold/fire/lightning/thunder damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage (you choose the damage type when you gain this feature and can change the damage type when you level up). The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8.

Rangers are often archers, so it doesn't make sense for this feature to be melee only, but it would probably be OP if it's range wasn't limited. In order to counter the benefit of increased range, the damage type is more often resisted, and the extra damage die for some creature types is removed.

I think this simple addition could put the class roughly on par with the other 1/2 caster classes. Thoughts?

There are exactly 3 half caster classes, and 1 of them has Divine Smite or its equivalent. It's a hard sell for me that giving Rangers Divine Smite But Better (you inverted your resistance analysis - picking from those five types will make it less resisted than Radiant, not more) is what's needed to bring Rangers up to being on par with Paladin and Artificer.

As others have pointed out in this thread, it makes a lot more sense to focus on Rangers thematically and give them something that isn't spending slots for bonus damage, just as Artificers don't have that. You can also look to 1/3 casters for inspiration, if you want - EKs and ATs may have benefits that strike you as Rangerish. Or you can look at Paladins, and copy things that are Rangerish. The original Primeval Awareness can be upgraded by giving it the same scaling as Paladin Divine Sense - i.e. 1+Wis mod per long rest, no slots spent - and all you've done is make Rangers better without making them overpowered, and in a Rangerish way.