Good witches dealing with evil spirits

[Greywander]

I've been playing with a concept for a witch character and even wrote up a homebrew subclass (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632828-Witch-subclass-for-the-warlock) to help accommodate the concept (please I need feedback). One of the things I was thinking about for the character is alignment and how they would interact with evil spirits like fiends or evil fey.

Witches in generally likely lean toward a more neutral alignment, though one could say the same about druids. One of the main differences between witches and druids would probably be that witches aren't afraid to consort with dark powers, not just nature spirits. So while druids are well-respected, they consider witches borderline heretical and unorthodox, despite how much the two overlap.

I generally prefer to play Good characters. And I think I'm more specifically drawn to Lawful Good, just because I suppose that's the idealized version of myself. I've had a few concepts where the character obviously needs to be a different alignment, like an evil overlord Conquest paladin who would be Lawful Evil, but generally if it's not a deliberate choice to go for a different alignment I default to LG.

Where I'm coming into conflict is with the concept of a witch character who has a Good alignment and still consorts with fiends and the like. Maybe I'm just fishing for other perspectives on evil spirits in D&D, where there's a third option after "destroy them all in the name of Good" and "allow yourself to be corrupted by Evil". Perhaps the character would have philosophical beliefs more in line with a Neutral alignment, but generally act in a way that leans more toward Lawful Good.

Is there some frame of reference where you could say that creatures like fiends had some important part in the world, where they provided some kind of benefit to the universe and/or the creatures of the Material Plane? Could you have a positive relationship with them without being subverted to evil? Could you reconcile with them to form a mutually beneficial arrangement? Or, barring that, can they at least be appeased and contained in order to minimize the harm they cause without needing to resort to total destruction?

I think this could be an interesting character to play, in part due to their unconventional philosophy. Having an "good" character with no compunctions against calling up a Devil for help (so long as it won't screw them over) could lead to interesting and wacky situations you wouldn't get with a more dogmatic Good party. Imagine having to find and save a high ranking devil's pet abyssal chicken in order to get a favor from them.

[Kvess]

There is a belief among Devils that the rest of Creation should be grateful to them for keeping the Demons from dragging all planes into the Abyss. There is a measure of truth to this: the Blood War is often considered the only thing keeping either the Devils or Demons from completely overwhelming the forces of the Upper Planes.

It is not unheard of for Good creatures to take a side in the Blood War (and proxy battles on the prime material planes) to prevent the scales from tipping too far in either direction. Perhaps in doing so, you could convince a demon, devil, or yugoloth that it owes you a favour — or that it would be advantageous to make you think it holds you in high regard.

Fair warning: They will try to manipulate you. Be very careful about anything you agree to.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It truly depends on the cosmology and how your DM handles extraplanar beings.

Default Blood War fluff in 5E being what it is, I could see an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type relationship with devils, demons being the common enemy. The devil believes/knows that it's manipulating you, and you believe/know that you're using it for it's knowledge/power. It's a mutually beneficial relationship, but there's always the undercurrent of the devil's true nature running below it. You can trust them on the letter of their word, but not the spirit. They're likely always willing to offer you a little bit more, if you'll just do this one thing...

Demons... yeah, default fluff means that in no way could you really trust them. You could appeal to their better nature (by which I mean point at a bad guy and tell them to smash), but don't expect a long term working relationship.

For something like a Fae of the Winter Court, it could be completely unpredictable. Some might develop a fondness for you, while another might just string you out for 30 years, only to betray you and reveal it's long game at the worst/best possible moment.

Evil "spirit" undead, like Ghosts or Banshees, could likely be reasoned with like any other humanoid, with the added stipulation that you likely hold the power in that relationship (assuming that you've got spells and the like to handle them).

[quindraco]

Is there some frame of reference where you could say that creatures like fiends had some important part in the world, where they provided some kind of benefit to the universe and/or the creatures of the Material Plane? Could you have a positive relationship with them without being subverted to evil? Could you reconcile with them to form a mutually beneficial arrangement? Or, barring that, can they at least be appeased and contained in order to minimize the harm they cause without needing to resort to total destruction?


Yes, absolutely. If you think the Pact Primeval origin story for Asmodeus is the true one (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus#Origin_Story:_Pact_Primeval), Asmodeus is basically a military general who was fired for being too competent, and now he continues the war against the demons he was originally given the job of winning, and for his power source he simply offers mortals temptation - in other words, he does the world an infinite number of favors every time he takes a soul out of circulation and consigns it to hell as a power source and/or soldier. He's a pretty great guy who did nothing wrong, really. Hell of a guy, honestly.

[Havlock]

Hmm.. personally I'd have a hard time seeing my Good aligned character being buddy buddy with a devil.. maybe if we're playing loose with the alignment table and the devil were more mischief and less capital E type Evil.

Though I would readily embrace a good character using a devil as a tool. Summon and force it to do some good dead or whatnot.. sure... just don't go out for pints together afterward.

[Kvess]

Yes, absolutely. If you think the Pact Primeval origin story for Asmodeus is the true one (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus#Origin_Story:_Pact_Primeval), Asmodeus is basically a military general who was fired for being too competent, and now he continues the war against the demons he was originally given the job of winning, and for his power source he simply offers mortals temptation - in other words, he does the world an infinite number of favors every time he takes a soul out of circulation and consigns it to hell as a power source and/or soldier. He's a pretty great guy who did nothing wrong, really. Hell of a guy, honestly.

At the very least, that retelling of the Pact Primeval makes the forces of law and good complicit in eternal torture.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, absolutely. If you think the Pact Primeval origin story for Asmodeus is the true one (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus#Origin_Story:_Pact_Primeval), Asmodeus is basically a military general who was fired for being too competent, and now he continues the war against the demons he was originally given the job of winning, and for his power source he simply offers mortals temptation - in other words, he does the world an infinite number of favors every time he takes a soul out of circulation and consigns it to hell as a power source and/or soldier. He's a pretty great guy who did nothing wrong, really. Hell of a guy, honestly.

Thankfully that whole thing is no longer considered canon. As in 5e makes clear that the good entities do *not* and never did approve of Asmodeus in any way, shape or form, never thought that the threat of eternal punishment was something mortal needed to be good, and that they're happy that the demons are smart or lucky enough to target Hell, which limits what Asmodeus can do in the multiverse.


At the very least, that retelling of the Pact Primeval makes the forces of law and good complicit in eternal torture.

Indeed. Which is why I'm glad 5e dropped that like hot lead.

[Evaar]

Where I'm coming into conflict is with the concept of a witch character who has a Good alignment and still consorts with fiends and the like.

Turning to the Goetia and Lesser Key of Solomon, the would-be demon summoner utilizes the power of the divine to assert authority over and command demons on pain of divine torment. In this theory of magic, the magician is forcing demons to serve the magician using holy power. Said magician is supposed to use this power in furtherance of God's glory; although they are allowed to enrich themselves in the process (so you can make yourself rich and famous as long as you're going to use that wealth and fame to convert people). At least, that's one approach to the Goetia.

But point is - there exist real world theories of magic (inasmuch as any theory of magic can be described as being in the "real world") that justify consorting with demons without requiring the demon summoner to be evil. Establish that the relationship is antagonistic, the evil spirits are being forced to obey because of their weakness to your brand of magic, whatever that happens to be.

[Unoriginal]

Turning to the Goetia and Lesser Key of Solomon, the would-be demon summoner utilizes the power of the divine to assert authority over and command demons on pain of divine torment. In this theory of magic, the magician is forcing demons to serve the magician using holy power. Said magician is supposed to use this power in furtherance of God's glory; although they are allowed to enrich themselves in the process (so you can make yourself rich and famous as long as you're going to use that wealth and fame to convert people).

But point is - there exist real world theories of magic (inasmuch as any theory of magic can be described as being in the "real world") that justify consorting with demons without requiring the demon summoner to be evil. Establish that the relationship is antagonistic, the evil spirits are being forced to obey because of their weakness to your brand of magic, whatever that happens to be.

Indeed. Even in D&D some Warlocks do that, to say nothing to those who use spells to summon fiends.

[MrStabby]

I would be temped to start with the mundane and go from there.

Why do good people consort with bad people? Is evil some kind of binary evil/not evil choice or is it more of a sliding scale? Is there a degree of evil beyond which you will not interact or will actively try and hunt down and kill? Do the evil have rights?

I posit that even a paladin won't just destroy evil people - they might fight them in self defence or to bring them to justice for some specific crime, but outright violence on somewhat of a whim? I would guess not.

I guess I see this extending to more exotic entities. Would you trade with an evil fiend? Or an evil fey? What would you have to have had proven that they had done in order to not deal with them.

Lawful good gets to put weight on proceedure - it isn't enough to be evil, or even demonstrably evil; it must be shown to a sufficient standard of proof that they have committted a specific evil act with sufficient understanding. As a lawful good character this seems a reasonable line to take. Others might believe that fiends are evil and must be destroyed but you can have a code of honour that dictates there must be stronger grounds for suspicion.

[Reach Weapon]

Why do good people consort with bad people?

Some of the better answers to this could work really well in the context of the themes surrounding the historical and mythological witch: marginalization, repression, and various -isms of both the structural and personal variety. Unfortunately, I think there are plenty of tables and settings that would struggle with this.