Can a non-good character possess Exalted feats?

[Khatoblepas]

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

I'm thinking up an interesting build and I'm a bit stuck on something. The core is:

Human Ranger 4/Spirit Lion Totem Hunter Barbarian 1/Windwalker 2/Divine Crusader (Portal) 1/Harper Paragon 2/Windwalker +8

1) Power Attack
FE) Arcanists
Flaw1) Sacred Vow
Flaw2) Vow of Obedience
R1) Track
Urban Companion) Alertness
B) Lightning Reflexes
3) Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
FE2) Undead
6) Favored Power Attack
9) Improved Bull Rush
12) Shock Trooper
15) Leap Attack
18) Dimensional Jaunt??

The crux of this build is mostly to be a charger that has some other interesting abilities as well, using Harper Paragon's Favored Enemy: Evil and Favored Power Attack to deal out the damage while remaining mobile and free. The problem comes when Harper Paragon, while it doesn't require Good Alignment, DOES require Exalted feats. Divine Crusader for Shaundakul requires CN, as well, but gets Air and Travel spells on their spell list for it. BoED states that:


Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures. These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are). A character must have the DM’s permission to take an exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).

Only an Exalted GOOD character can acquire these feats, and you lose them if you ever commit an evil act, but what if your heart is filled with neutrality? If we look at the description of Neutral in the SRD:


Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good-evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.

What if the character started out with Good intentions, but was a coward and when faced with real, actual choice between sacrificing themselves and continuing to live, they balked? Is that really an evil act? You lose exalted feats when you commit an evil act, but if you just become slightly less Good, is that grounds for losing the benefits of your exalted feats? Nowhere in them does it say that you need to have the Good Alignment to keep them, only acquire them. Am I missing something here?

[noob]

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

I'm thinking up an interesting build and I'm a bit stuck on something. The core is:

Human Ranger 4/Spirit Lion Totem Hunter Barbarian 1/Windwalker 2/Divine Crusader (Portal) 1/Harper Paragon 2/Windwalker +8

1) Power Attack
FE) Arcanists
Flaw1) Sacred Vow
Flaw2) Vow of Obedience
R1) Track
Urban Companion) Alertness
B) Lightning Reflexes
3) Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
FE2) Undead
6) Favored Power Attack
9) Improved Bull Rush
12) Shock Trooper
15) Leap Attack
18) Dimensional Jaunt??

The crux of this build is mostly to be a charger that has some other interesting abilities as well, using Harper Paragon's Favored Enemy: Evil and Favored Power Attack to deal out the damage while remaining mobile and free. The problem comes when Harper Paragon, while it doesn't require Good Alignment, DOES require Exalted feats. Divine Crusader for Shaundakul requires CN, as well, but gets Air and Travel spells on their spell list for it. BoED states that:



Only an Exalted GOOD character can acquire these feats, and you lose them if you ever commit an evil act, but what if your heart is filled with neutrality? If we look at the description of Neutral in the SRD:



What if the character started out with Good intentions, but was a coward and when faced with real, actual choice between sacrificing themselves and continuing to live, they balked? Is that really an evil act? You lose exalted feats when you commit an evil act, but if you just become slightly less Good, is that grounds for losing the benefits of your exalted feats? Nowhere in them does it say that you need to have the Good Alignment to keep them, only acquire them. Am I missing something here?

You are not enough an optimiser: you should just use the right spell to trade alignments as wanted instead of needing "actions".

[Khatoblepas]

I mean, do you know any spells that'd turn someone CN from CG without performing an evil act?

[daremetoidareyo]

Maybe two oath hammers from champions of valor could help?

[noob]

I mean, do you know any spells that'd turn someone CN from CG without performing an evil act?

http://dndtools.org/spells/spell-compendium--86/programmed-amnesia--4661/
Basically unaligned mind rape.
Also available if you are seeking in the player manual (possibly the most broken manual) there is the atonement spell option called "Redemption or Temptation" which can actually bring you to the alignment of any character able to cast it on you if you wish to provided they have an alignment opposing yours.(so you might need multiple castings for going from cg to cn maybe go from CG to LN then to CN or something like that(LN might or might not count as opposing CG))

[Twurps]

Pure RAW? You need to be good to acquire them, and only lose them upon committing an evil act. As long as you don't commit any evil acts, (or commit them but atone for them in the proper manner), al should be good(pun intended).

So if this is TO, do as you like, and interpret as you like, it doesn't matter. If this is for an actual table: Ask your DM. I know it's a bit of a boring platitude, but it's a platitude for a reason, and it's even more true now. It's spelled out in the text you quoted and all.

If this was at my table? No way.
The 'highest moral standards' part means you strive to be 'gooder* than good', Neutral doesn't even come close.

*gooder, because more good doesn't equal better.

[daremetoidareyo]

Why not take heretic of the faith?

[Khatoblepas]

Why not take heretic of the faith?

Because Heretic of the Faith's alignment relaxing only applies to Clerics:


you can grossly violate your deities code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities.

It's actually super weird that Exalted feats only have the restriction for acquiring them, while Vile feats have an alignment restriction for using them.


Only intelligent characters of evil alignment can use vile feats.

But does that mean that nonevil characters can acquire vile feats, just not be able to use them?

[Thurbane]

As well as Programmed Amnesia, there is also the Compel spell (Shaman 8, Ancestor domain 8) from OA. The sole purpose of the spell is to force an alignment change (to an alignment of the casters choosing) on a failed Will save. It's permanent duration, so may be vulnerable to Dispel etc.

Also, drawing the Balance card from a Deck of Many Things. Risky, at best. never mind, it states has to be a radically different new alignment, so CG to CN probably doesn't qualify.

There's also the Evangelist PrC (CD) and it's Convert the Unfaithful ability. If you fail a save, you act is if Charmed, and temporarily change alignment to match the Evangelist. At the end of the duration, you can choose to remain the new alignment, if you wish.

[JNAProductions]

I think you'd be better off asking the DM to relax alignment restrictions. Whether that's on the Exalted feats or the PrCs you want, whichever, but I really do feel that asking "Can we houserule to make this work?" will go over better than something that might be RAW, but is pretty clearly not RAI.

[the_tick_rules]

It's strictly my perception but I would say if you were neutral you could acquire them with a wish, limited or reg. I would say only one feat could be conjured from thin air and the rest would have to be done when you acquire them through levels ups and a wish. For an evil character I would say only if you came up with a very impressive justification.

[Rebel7284]

Bypass the problem completely by replacing Harper Paragon with Stalker of Kharash? You get the same Favored Enemy[Evil] with full BAB progression. You can take Windwalker later if you want to since it has full caster progression.

So:
Human Ranger 4/Spirit Lion Totem Hunter Barbarian 1/Stalker of Kharash 2/Divine Crusader (Portal) 1/Windwalker 10
Note that you max out Divine Crusader progression before finishing Windwalker, so I assume that last level progresses ranger.

Problem solved?

edit: Favored of the Companions is also an exalted feat.... problem not solved. BAH

[Crake]

I think you'd be better off asking the DM to relax alignment restrictions. Whether that's on the Exalted feats or the PrCs you want, whichever, but I really do feel that asking "Can we houserule to make this work?" will go over better than something that might be RAW, but is pretty clearly not RAI.

Hard agree.

[ciopo]

Harper paragon itself doesn't have an alignment restriction.

So, once you qualify, you don't need to stay "gooder than good" . You lose the benefits of the feats, but you still have them. You just can't use them. So by a technicality you still qualify for harper paragon even if you aren't bigG anymore.

Not elegant, and I would frown, but there you have it. I'll parrot the "ask your dm"

[ShurikVch]

Savage Species to the rescue:
Emancipated Spawn PrC: if you had [exalted] feats in life, you would regain them at the very 1st level (presuming you're not Evil currently)
Symbiotic Creature template: guest's feats are bonus feats - thus, requirement-free

Also, Hellbreaker PrC (Fiendish Codex II) got the Steal Supernatural Ability CF - thus, would be able to get [exalted] feats from other characters

For a rather specific example - Sworn Slayer PrC (Dragon #324) gets Nemesis as bonus feat

[redking]

Aren't exalted feats unobtainable for even 'good' aligned characters that fail to live up to 'exalted' standards? This being the case, I doubt that characters of other alignments to take exalted feats.

[Jowgen]

This seems to relate to a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629681-Ways-to-get-both-Vile-and-Exalted-feats) from a little ago where I contributed to, and a follow up (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630133-quot-But-I-didn-t-do-anything!-quot-Falling-to-Evil-without-taking-actions#post25020240) I did on the moral side of it

[Zanos]

You wouldn't lose your prestige class features from losing your feats. Per the DMG, you only need to meet the requirements to take the first level.

[Thurbane]

You wouldn't lose your prestige class features from losing your feats. Per the DMG, you only need to meet the requirements to take the first level.

That's a bit of a can of worms: a lot of groups apply the rules from some of the Complete books that losing PrC reqs means you lose access to PrC features, similarly to how losing reqs for feats works.

Hotly debated, to be sure, but something that may vary from table to table.

[Vaern]

There are a number of reasons why you probably won't be able to get away with keeping [Exalted] feats on a non-good character.

1.) The description of Exalted feats says they're only obtainable by a good character. Per the definition of Exalted feats, one could reasonably argue that a good alignment is a prerequisite to take the feat, and therefore losing your good alignment causes you to lose the benefit of the feat. The fact that this alignment prerequisite isn't directly written into each individual feat description seems to be the only foothold for your argument that you should be able to keep an Exalted feat after shifting to neutral, but the argument is likely to be simply brushed aside. Exalted feats are literally defined by this trait, and the prerequisite can be inferred simply by nature of having the [Exalted] tag.

2.) Gaining an Exalted feat requires that a celestial entity grant you power. As a character of the highest moral standards you swear an oath to act as an agent of Good. If they see that you lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others, they could likely revoke the power they've granted you as easily as they could if you were to commit an evil act. You no longer stand as a beacon of Good as you have sworn to do. You have failed on your end of the bargain, so they are no longer obligated to uphold their end.

3.) The Book of Exalted Deeds, as a whole, is intended for people who want to create the Good-est of Good characters fully committed to Good. Any reasonable DM is simply going to say "No, that's not going to fly. What? No. I don't care if you haven't technically done anything evil. You're not Good any more. You're not keeping the feat. What do you mean, it doesn't say you can't turn neutral? Look, Exalted characters aren't just good. They're paragons of Good that exemplify their alignment. Do you really think I'm going to let you keep the powers of an exemplar of good without being good? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works."

4.) Exalted feats explicitly require DM permission to take. DM giveth, DM taketh away. (See #3.)

Sometimes the argument that "I should be able to get away with this because RAW doesn't specifically say that I can't" manages to find its place at a table, but I can't imagine this would be one of those times when it slides.


I mean, do you know any spells that'd turn someone CN from CG without performing an evil act?

Atonement has a function specifically for this. It's noted as existing purely for the sake of allowing for an in-game explanation for a character's alignment to shift dramatically in a very short amount of time.
Evangelists have an ability that converts people to their own alignment for the duration, and then gives the subject the option of willingly accepting the new alignment permanently once the duration expires. This effectively functions as the atonement spell.
And you don't necessarily have to commit an evil act to turn neutral. All you really need to do is say something like, "Hey, DM, I think my character should shift into neutral. By now he's getting tired of always put himself on the line for everyone else just to be the butt of the bard's jokes at the end of the day. Making sacrifices to help complete strangers is turning into a thankless and unrewarding chore."
Your alignment represents your character's motivations and priorities, not the sum of his actions. Some good or evil acts might leave a sort of lasting impression on your character that can be detected via magic, but you shouldn't regard your character's alignment as some sort of point system where doing X good acts cancels out X bad acts and leaves you at neutral at the end of the day.

[Khatoblepas]

That's a bit of a can of worms: a lot of groups apply the rules from some of the Complete books that losing PrC reqs means you lose access to PrC features, similarly to how losing reqs for feats works.

Hotly debated, to be sure, but something that may vary from table to table.

Yeah, I really don't like that reading of the rules, as the game seems to be written with the assumption that losing prerequisites loses you the class, and a lot of build competitions run with this.


1.) The description of Exalted feats says they're only obtainable by a good character. Per the definition of Exalted feats, one could reasonably argue that a good alignment is a prerequisite to take the feat, and therefore losing your good alignment causes you to lose the benefit of the feat. The fact that this alignment prerequisite isn't directly written into each individual feat description seems to be the only foothold for your argument that you should be able to keep an Exalted feat after shifting to neutral, but the argument is likely to be simply brushed aside. Exalted feats are literally defined by this trait, and the prerequisite can be inferred simply by nature of having the [Exalted] tag.

But Exalted feats don't have the same wording as Vile feats, which explicitly call out in the description of Vile feats that in order to Use them, you must be evil, and that the higher powers that granted you them can take them away if you displease the ones who gave them. Exalted feats are a gift, Vile feats are a debt. Exalted feats have text that says when you lose them - when you perform an Evil act.



4.) Exalted feats explicitly require DM permission to take. DM giveth, DM taketh away. (See #3.)
I mean, yeah, but the DM can also say that your character now has a sphere of annihilation for a pancreas. Thought experiments like these assume a neutral DM that simply follows the rules.


Emancipated Spawn PrC: if you had [exalted] feats in life, you would regain them at the very 1st level (presuming you're not Evil currently)
Symbiotic Creature template: guest's feats are bonus feats - thus, requirement-free
I've always wanted to do something with Emancipated Spawn, it's a very interesting class, but I can't think of any spawned undead without a crippling amount of LA.

And the idea of an evil host with an exalted guest tickles me. Would a host with Vow of Poverty as a bonus feat lose the feat if they used equipment, or could the guest have no equipment and grant the benefits to the host?

[ShurikVch]

I've always wanted to do something with Emancipated Spawn, it's a very interesting class, but I can't think of any spawned undead without a crippling amount of LA.
Ghoul Lord - from Denizens of Dread - is just LA +2
Bodak Creature, Ghastly Creature, and Ghoulish Creature - from Dragon Compendium - are kinda LA +0


And the idea of an evil host with an exalted guest tickles me.
Then how about the Neutral host with Evil tendencies?
Besides, some creatures are "count as Evil" without being actually Evil:
Hellbred
(Lesser) Tiefling
Creature with "Evil" subtype
In some settings, clerics may stray farther than "one step" on alignment grid, but detected as their patron's alignment

Would a host with Vow of Poverty as a bonus feat lose the feat if they used equipment, or could the guest have no equipment and grant the benefits to the host?
The latter - just like host would also benefit from the [initiate] of St. Cuthbert feat, despite not being a worshiper (or, maybe, even of Lawful alignment)

[Vaern]

I've always wanted to do something with Emancipated Spawn, it's a very interesting class, but I can't think of any spawned undead without a crippling amount of LA.
I'm actually having difficulty finding any spawn with a LA. Vampires are listed as having a +8, but vampire spawn have no LA.
Wights are listed as having no LA and spawn wights under their command.
Ghasts spawn ghouls, with no LA.
Dread wraiths spawn wraiths, with no LA.
Spectres spawn more spectres, with no LA.
Shadows spawn more shadows, with no LA.
Morghs spawn zombies, which isn't particularly useful here since they have no intelligence score... unless they were awakened, in which case they have no LA.

MM2's Spawn of Kyuss create more Spawn of Kyuss. They have no listed LA in the book, though a 3.5 update has given them a +5 LA.
Famine spirits spawn more famine spirits. No LA, but their 32 racial hit dice are going to put them waaaaay out of reach as far as ECL goes. They have a vorpal bite that decapitates anything up to large size on a critical hit*, though, which sounds fun.
*Not just on a natural 20, as a regular Vorpal weapon

MM4's whisper demons can create allips (per MM1) which have no LA. In order to qualify for emancipated spawn, though, the whisper demon itself would have to somehow become undead and retain its create spawn ability.


Ghoul Lord - from Denizens of Dread - is just LA +2
Bodak Creature, Ghastly Creature, and Ghoulish Creature - from Dragon Compendium - are kinda LA +0
Bodaks don't have a create spawn ability and their death gaze doesn't refer to the bodak it creates as a "spawn," so I don't think they'd be a valid choice. All three of those creature templates also appear to retain all of the base creature's feats, saves, abilities, and whatnot, so even if they could qualify I don't think they'd get much out of the class... though, if they were available to begin with, the emancipated spawn class would be kind of pointless.

*Edit*
Actually, I just realized that you regain the full benefits of all of your previous class levels upon reaching emancipated spawn 3, but you don't immediately regain all of your hit dice from those levels and still technically only have 3 class levels despite your ECL being bumped up. You might be able to cheese your way into delaying your access to epic levels if you wanted to for some reason. Usually people are trying to cheese their way into accessing epic content earlier, but someone might have a use for this...

[ShurikVch]

I'm actually having difficulty finding any spawn with a LA. Vampires are listed as having a +8, but vampire spawn have no LA.
By the monstrous class in Libris Mortis, Vampire Spawn is LA +4 (because 8 levels, but only 4 HD)


Wights are listed as having no LA and spawn wights under their command.
For a Wights from MM - yes; but corresponding template is LA +4


Ghasts spawn ghouls, with no LA.
By the monstrous class in both Libris Mortis and Savage Species, LA +3


Dread wraiths spawn wraiths, with no LA.
Once again, for MM - yes; but corresponding template is LA +7


Spectres spawn more spectres, with no LA.
Spectral Creature template is LA: —


Shadows spawn more shadows, with no LA.
By the monstrous class in Savage Species, LA +7


MM2's Spawn of Kyuss create more Spawn of Kyuss. They have no listed LA in the book, though a 3.5 update has given them a +5 LA.
Favored Spawn of Kyuss (Dragon #336) still have no listed LA (despite being well into 3.5 era)


Bodaks don't have a create spawn ability and their death gaze doesn't refer to the bodak it creates as a "spawn," so I don't think they'd be a valid choice.
True.


All three of those creature templates also appear to retain all of the base creature's feats, saves, abilities, and whatnot, so even if they could qualify I don't think they'd get much out of the class... though, if they were available to begin with, the emancipated spawn class would be kind of pointless.
Regain your [exalted] feats (which you lost by becoming an "Evil Dead")?

[Thurbane]

I was going to bring up Gravetouched Ghoul (IMHO, the second most playable undead template in 3E), but their fluff indicates they are self-spawning, not spawn of another being.

[Vaern]

Oof. I've never looked much into SS except to check specific feats and such that people have mentioned. I didn't realize that it revised so many core creatures o.o


Regain your [exalted] feats (which you lost by becoming an "Evil Dead")?

Oh, right. That was literally the entire point of the thread, wasn't it?