Phantom Rogue subclass; a confused mess?

[JellyPooga]

So I'm not the biggest fan of TCoE (or XGtE for that matter), but I thought I'd take a squint at some more content that I wasn't expecting to like. Namely, my favourite Class, the Rogue. First stop, the Phantom...

...and I can't help but disparage it. Let me break down my thoughts;

1) Theme. I'm not sure who wanted a ghost-themed Rogue to start with, but tacking on supernatural features to a solidly mundane Class feels...odd. It's not like the Totem Barbarian which feels a little more natural in its connection to the supernatural; gaining ritual abilities and mundane improvements from their spiritual connection. The Phantom just doesn't quite gel for me, thematically. If anyone has any insight on the theme, I'm all ears.

2) Features. Ok, so as someone in a different thread mentioned, basically all the Phantom gets is some extra damage and I tend to agree. What a missed opportunity.
2a) Whispers of the Dead. Adding skill proficiency to a Class that already has a focus on skill proficiencies? Er...whut?
2b) Wails from the Grave. Adding bonus damage to a Class that already has a focus on bonus damage? Er...whut?
2c) Tokens of the Departed. Ah...now this is kind of cool and feels like it should be the focus of the subclass, with later level features expanding upon what you can do with it/them. Gating this until 9th level feels like a disservice to the theme and the potential of the Class. If I were designing this subclass, I'd place this solidly in as the 3rd level feature offering the Speak with Dead-lite and Con/Death save bonus. At higher levels, you could present improvements upon the Speak with Dead feature (more questions, force them to tell truth, include additional languages, the ability to communicate with animals and plants, maybe even grant telepathy or a Detect Thoughts feature, etc. Really double-down on being a supernatural interrogator) as well as the option of modular features, like the later Ghost Walk, other spell-like features, or even something vaguely unique like adding (ghostly) reach to your melee attacks, darkvision or other supernatural senses, a fear or other curse effect...there's so much you can do with the theme of ghosts and spirits and they went primarily with...extra damage? Srsly?
2d) Ghost Walk. This I like and I feel like it could have come online earlier, even if in a more limited fashion; something emulating something like Misty Step, Invisibility and/or Blink to represent a closer ghostly connection, perhaps? Way of Shadow Monks get Shadow Step at 6th level and I don't see this as being too far displaced from that, either thematically or power-wise.
2e) Death Knell. Urgh. Pointless numbers-increase. Can it be any less imaginative?

So does anyone have anything good to say about the Phantom in its defence? Any suggestions on how you might improve it or change it to fit your vision? So far, for me, it's just another example of typical Trasha's content-bloat; pointless and lacking vivre.

[Jerrykhor]

Yeah its kind of uninspired, lacking that ghostly or creepy feel that it advertised. Wails of the Grave feels like Greenflame Blade had a child with Sneak Attack. Whispers of the Dead is a powercrept version of Knowledge Clerics CD. Ghostwalk looks neat, until you realise moving through objects is considered difficult terrain. With 10ft flying speed, you only get to move 5ft, which is probably not enough if the wall is 5ft thick or there are objects behind it.

[MrStabby]

So I'm not the biggest fan of TCoE (or XGtE for that matter), but I thought I'd take a squint at some more content that I wasn't expecting to like. Namely, my favourite Class, the Rogue. First stop, the Phantom...

...and I can't help but disparage it. Let me break down my thoughts;

1) Theme. I'm not sure who wanted a ghost-themed Rogue to start with, but tacking on supernatural features to a solidly mundane Class feels...odd. It's not like the Totem Barbarian which feels a little more natural in its connection to the supernatural; gaining ritual abilities and mundane improvements from their spiritual connection. The Phantom just doesn't quite gel for me, thematically. If anyone has any insight on the theme, I'm all ears.

2) Features. Ok, so as someone in a different thread mentioned, basically all the Phantom gets is some extra damage and I tend to agree. What a missed opportunity.
2a) Whispers of the Dead. Adding skill proficiency to a Class that already has a focus on skill proficiencies? Er...whut?
2b) Wails from the Grave. Adding bonus damage to a Class that already has a focus on bonus damage? Er...whut?
2c) Tokens of the Departed. Ah...now this is kind of cool and feels like it should be the focus of the subclass, with later level features expanding upon what you can do with it/them. Gating this until 9th level feels like a disservice to the theme and the potential of the Class. If I were designing this subclass, I'd place this solidly in as the 3rd level feature offering the Speak with Dead-lite and Con/Death save bonus. At higher levels, you could present improvements upon the Speak with Dead feature (more questions, force them to tell truth, include additional languages, the ability to communicate with animals and plants, maybe even grant telepathy or a Detect Thoughts feature, etc. Really double-down on being a supernatural interrogator) as well as the option of modular features, like the later Ghost Walk, other spell-like features, or even something vaguely unique like adding (ghostly) reach to your melee attacks, darkvision or other supernatural senses, a fear or other curse effect...there's so much you can do with the theme of ghosts and spirits and they went primarily with...extra damage? Srsly?
2d) Ghost Walk. This I like and I feel like it could have come online earlier, even if in a more limited fashion; something emulating something like Misty Step, Invisibility and/or Blink to represent a closer ghostly connection, perhaps? Way of Shadow Monks get Shadow Step at 6th level and I don't see this as being too far displaced from that, either thematically or power-wise.
2e) Death Knell. Urgh. Pointless numbers-increase. Can it be any less imaginative?

So does anyone have anything good to say about the Phantom in its defence? Any suggestions on how you might improve it or change it to fit your vision? So far, for me, it's just another example of typical Trasha's content-bloat; pointless and lacking vivre.

I kind of agree.

I think the premise is good and like so many options, I got excied when the Unearthed Arcana was released (based on its potential rather than its form at the time). I actually liked the theme, thought it worked quite well on the rogue but the implimentation in Tasha's Cauldron of Dissapointments is underwhelming.

l totally agree that the level 9 ability is where the resulting theme is stongest and gives its unique flavour. It is a powerful ability but also really cool. As the defining ability I agree it should be earlier; that said, as one of its interactions is with the 3rd level ability it is just hard to switch it round. That and ghost walk.

There ARE cool abilities here, but they just don't feel like they are well integrated into your class when they come online so late.


The class has some features going for it; I like that it can do things other rogues can't. Things that are qualitatively different not just a numbers increase. This makes it feel a bit more engaging than some.

I thought the UA "Audience with death" ability on the Revived rogue was very cool and think it a shame it din't end up in the class.

[Hytheter]

2a) Whispers of the Dead. Adding skill proficiency to a Class that already has a focus on skill proficiencies? Er...whut?

I don't see why a subclass feature that extends the focus of the base class is a bad thing. Yeah, Rogues already have several proficiencies and expertise to boot. This just takes it a step further and gives them a little day-by-day flexibility. I think it's a good feature, myself.

Wails of the grave less so, but not because it "gives more bonus damage to a class focused on bonus damage." I just think it's dumb and out of place.

[Amnestic]

So does anyone have anything good to say about the Phantom in its defence? Any suggestions on how you might improve it or change it to fit your vision? So far, for me, it's just another example of typical Trasha's content-bloat; pointless and lacking vivre.

I don't think your criticisms are entirely fair - a rogue class getting an additional (Floating, changeable) skill proficiency isn't 'bad'. Assassin and Mastermind get tools. Scout gets two skills *and* Expertise in those skills. That's generally rated as a pretty good feature. Being able to flexibly change a skill/tool prof as you need it is pretty thematic for a rogue and it works well with that idea of 'spirit knowledge'. On its face, I do not mind this.

Wails from the Grave isn't 'just' damage, it's damage to a second creature, a pseudo-cleave, which is notable since rogue is normally single-target only (one attack/turn) outside of any aoe spells they get from arcane trickster. Assassin's assassinate isn't bad to have in the class because all it does is boost their damage on a class that does damage, it's bad because it's clunky and hard to make use of.

With that said, while I do feel Phantom performs adequately when stacked up against other rogue subclasses, I do agree that its theming is perhaps not fully fleshed out.

A few thoughts on a potential rewrite if I were using the existing version as a baseline:

Whispers of the Dead moved from 3rd to 9th. You get expertise in the floating skill as well.
Wails from the Grave modified. Allow you to sacrifice necrotic damage dice as you gain levels (eg. 6th, 13th, 17th) to inflict various conditions like 0 move speed, frightened, blind/deaf, or paralyzed on a failed con (Wis?) save.
Tokens of the Departed moved from 9th to 3rd. Move it's Con/Death save stuff to 9th.
Ghost Walk - A few ideas on this one. Could simply boost its flight speed (10' is trash, for reasons above). Could make you full on Ethereal (as the Etherealness spell). Personally, I want to trash it entirely and replace it with a Possession mechanic. Ghosts possess people as one of their notable features in 5e, I think it'd be pretty cool if a player could do that. Capping its duration is probably the easiest to prevent massive abuse, but you could just offer repeated saves every hour/8 hours/24 hours that have a dropping DC to beat the longer the possession goes on.
Death Knell - Incredibly boring subclass capstone. Again, a few ideas for replacements. Since we want to focus on tokens, my initial idea is that you gain a new use for them - shatter one to resummon the spirit of the creature you killed who'll fight for you for a minute. If you want to keep this simple, have them use an existing statblock (eg. ghost, wraith, specter). If you want to get complex, have them use their previous statblock they had in life.


Other ideas include: Shatter token for AoE frightened (meh), shatter token for plane shift to specifically afterlife planes (hmm), shatter token to power word kill (probably not), shatter token to *prevent* anyone from dying nearby (hmm?)

[stoutstien]

Overall it's a bit wordy but it's not bad other than a little slow to get going. just seems a little lackluster sitting next to the other rogue option in the same book.

[neonchameleon]

2) Features. Ok, so as someone in a different thread mentioned, basically all the Phantom gets is some extra damage and I tend to agree. What a missed opportunity.
2a) Whispers of the Dead. Adding skill proficiency to a Class that already has a focus on skill proficiencies? Er...whut?

Almost every single other rogue subclass does this. Just not as flexibly. The assassin gets two kit proficiencies. The mastermind gets three. The scout gets nature and survival.


2b) Wails from the Grave. Adding bonus damage to a Class that already has a focus on bonus damage? Er...whut?

Almost every single rogue subclass gets extra DPR from their subclass. The assassin gets ambush. The Swashbuckler gets easy access to sneak attack.


2e) Death Knell. Urgh. Pointless numbers-increase. Can it be any less imaginative?

This one depends entirely on the DM and, importantly, whether you get the name of the soul when they appear in the soul cage. If you don't it's just numbers. If you do it's plot hook and engagement.

Anyway, the real flavour of the class and why it's highly evocative and terrifying is buried in a short sentence under one of the Soul Token options: "The spirit appears to you and answers in a language it knew in life. It's under no obligation to be truthful, and it answers as concisely as possible, eager to be free." The phantom is a thief/assassin who steals the souls of those they kill, and makes use of them. And why it's especially terrifying? All the resurrection spells except revivify specify that the target must be willing and their soul must be free. You're an assassin who takes souls and traps them in trinkets, preventing resurrection.

[JellyPooga]

I don't see why a subclass feature that extends the focus of the base class is a bad thing. Yeah, Rogues already have several proficiencies and expertise to boot. This just takes it a step further and gives them a little day-by-day flexibility. I think it's a good feature, myself.

Wails of the grave less so, but not because it "gives more bonus damage to a class focused on bonus damage." I just think it's dumb and out of place.

I don't disagree that adding the flexibility of a floating skill proficiency is a nice addition and it sort of makes sense from a thematic point of view. Perhaps I'm just seeing greater potential in the implementation than they gave it and would like to see greater impact from that spiritual connection. Rather than proficiency (which feels like something inherent and trained), perhaps have this offer advantage on a chosen skill or ability check (as if benefitting from the Help action...which is essentially what's going on here). At higher levels I coud see it scaling to offer boons to more than one skill/ability and extend and improve the nature of the boon (whether in the usual sort of ways or something new).

When I'm thinking about this subclass, thematically, I'm envisioning something akin to the abilities displayed by the Necromongers from Chronicles of Riddick. Ghostly aid, whispers in the dark and soul-stealing. Nothing so overt and flashy as something you'd expect from a Warlock or even a Monk, but subtle as a Rogue should be. Perhaps I'm missing the mark here, but if I'm on track then the abilities simply aren't living up to anything I'd want out of that kind of theme. There's an opportunity here to encourage a really dark side to this subclass; if most of the abilities are fuelled by taking the souls of the recently departed, then this is perhaps a place to introduce some truly Evil themes...or indeed to subvert them. Either way, the devs didn't explore the opportunities and three out something bland.

@neonchameleon: 3 out of 9 (let alone 2) does not qualify for "almost all" in my book.

As for the subclasses that offer additional proficiencies, I have an issue with them as well, but for a different reason. Namely that if I want to play an Assassin, for example, I'm going to want to have proficiency in Poisoners Kit before lvl.3, which means my Assassin subclass is actually giving me something that's probably unrelated to being an assassin. The same goes for the Scout and Mastermind; the subclass itself is likely to be giving me redundant features if I'm playing that archetype. The Phantom, at least, doesn't do this, which is a note in its favour.

As for the soul-stealing aspect, I agree, but where I don't is that it should be the front-and-centre focus of the subclass. Imagine if Arcane Trickster didn't offer spellcasting until level 9. Pretty disappointing and misses the mark of what you want the class to do, right?

[jojosskul]

I don't disagree that adding the flexibility of a floating skill proficiency is a nice addition and it sort of makes sense from a thematic point of view. Perhaps I'm just seeing greater potential in the implementation than they gave it and would like to see greater impact from that spiritual connection. Rather than proficiency (which feels like something inherent and trained), perhaps have this offer advantage on a chosen skill or ability check (as if benefitting from the Help action...which is essentially what's going on here). At higher levels I coud see it scaling to offer boons to more than one skill/ability and extend and improve the nature of the boon (whether in the usual sort of ways or something new).

When I'm thinking about this subclass, thematically, I'm envisioning something akin to the abilities displayed by the Necromongers from Chronicles of Riddick. Ghostly aid, whispers in the dark and soul-stealing. Nothing so overt and flashy as something you'd expect from a Warlock or even a Monk, but subtle as a Rogue should be. Perhaps I'm missing the mark here, but if I'm on track then the abilities simply aren't living up to anything I'd want out of that kind of theme. There's an opportunity here to encourage a really dark side to this subclass; if most of the abilities are fuelled by taking the souls of the recently departed, then this is perhaps a place to introduce some truly Evil themes...or indeed to subvert them. Either way, the devs didn't explore the opportunities and three out something bland.

@neonchameleon: 3 out of 9 (let alone 2) does not qualify for "almost all" in my book.

As for the subclasses that offer additional proficiencies, I have an issue with them as well, but for a different reason. Namely that if I want to play an Assassin, for example, I'm going to want to have proficiency in Poisoners Kit before lvl.3, which means my Assassin subclass is actually giving me something that's probably unrelated to being an assassin. The same goes for the Scout and Mastermind; the subclass itself is likely to be giving me redundant features if I'm playing that archetype. The Phantom, at least, doesn't do this, which is a note in its favour.

As for the soul-stealing aspect, I agree, but where I don't is that it should be the front-and-centre focus of the subclass. Imagine if Arcane Trickster didn't offer spellcasting until level 9. Pretty disappointing and misses the mark of what you want the class to do, right?

Do you know where the level 9 ability makes sense to come in as written? Not level 3, but level 6 or 7. Where EVERY other class gets their second subclass feature. A floating skill and proficiency bonus wails of the grave is plenty to tide you over if you'll be getting the level 9 abilities at 6. To me the issue with Phantom isn't the fault of the subclass, but the chassis of the Rogue class itself.

The second subclass ability comes online WAAAAY too late. You feel like you have no progression in your subclass abilities at ALL for the majority of the levels where the game is actually played. The only subclasses that comes to mind where that is NOT true are Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife, since each get a form of pseudo progression from either spells or increased number and size of Psi dice.

I say this as someone who LOVES rogue, even outside of the two subclasses I mentioned above. A lot of the other subclasses give you core class defining features at 3 and make up for it by making the level 9 ability kind of... meh. Thief, for instance. Fast hands can completely define your playstyle. And one of my favorite characters I've ever played was a charlatan snake oil salesman Thief with the Healer feat. Then at level 9, you get a worse version of an ability that infiltrator armorers get for free along with EVERYTHING else they get at 3.

Anyway, mini rant over. If I could I'd move the second rogue subclass ability to 6, and have the second set of expertise come in at 9.

[Kvess]

Anyway, the real flavour of the class and why it's highly evocative and terrifying is buried in a short sentence under one of the Soul Token options: "The spirit appears to you and answers in a language it knew in life. It's under no obligation to be truthful, and it answers as concisely as possible, eager to be free." The phantom is a thief/assassin who steals the souls of those they kill, and makes use of them. And why it's especially terrifying? All the resurrection spells except revivify specify that the target must be willing and their soul must be free. You're an assassin who takes souls and traps them in trinkets, preventing resurrection.
If I understand correctly, the token is not the creature’s soul. It is something precious to the creature created from its life essence. (I would flavour this as maybe a physical representation of a memory or regret or desire?) When the token is destroyed, it summons the spirit of the creature, who is compelled to answer a question and is eager to be free. It doesn’t say the creature has to currently be dead. YMMV.

I think the phantom is an interesting take for a rogue. Rogues are stealthy and get into places that should be impossible to infiltrate, and a connection to unseen and intangible spirits fits with with that.

[jaappleton]

Honestly?

I’m of the opinion most, if not nearly all, Rogue subclasses are a complete mess.

Assassin. One good feature, then a whole lot of nothing. Unless you’re starting at a very high level, who goes full Assassin?

Scout. Using your reaction to move away competes directly with Uncanny Dodge. Skill proficiencies in some very mediocre skills. Meh. With the Ranger improvements this used to be a decent alternative to the feel of Ranger, but now it’s very lackluster and unappealing. At tier 3 you get something worth looking at, but not before. Again, unless you’re starting high level, is this worth plodding through the first two tiers?

Thief. Aside from Use Magic Device, what’s this got going for it? Second story work? So many races have flight or climbing speed.

Swashbuckler. Right off the bat, melee only. The best part used to be not having to worry about qualifying for sneak attack, but with the new use of Cunning Action to get Sneak Attack, what’s the point? Better off hanging back in the distance.

Departed. Hot garbage. Disjointed through and through.

Arcane Trickster, still one of the best and only getting better as more spells come out.

Soul Knife…. I love it conceptually. But strictly RAW it’s a mess. Can’t really utilize magic weapons, can’t use the psychic blades for opportunity attacks. In desperate need of errata to fix some glaring oversights.

[neonchameleon]

@neonchameleon: 3 out of 9 (let alone 2) does not qualify for "almost all" in my book.

Those were examples, not an exhaustive list.


As for the soul-stealing aspect, I agree, but where I don't is that it should be the front-and-centre focus of the subclass. Imagine if Arcane Trickster didn't offer spellcasting until level 9. Pretty disappointing and misses the mark of what you want the class to do, right?

On the other hand level appropriateness is a thing. They give you shreds of the soul abilities at level 3 but you're not going to block 9th level spells at level 3.

[sayaijin]

So I personally loved the idea of a rogue who either outsmarted Death or made some sort of deal with Death. I love the idea of collecting trinkets from victims and those trinkets powering subclass abilities.

As others have said, the trinkets being delayed until level 9 was a horrible decision. I have a rework in my signature that moves those to third level. I also took away all bonus damage the subclass gave and instead leaned into the idea of being unkillable - by giving even more tanky abilities.

If you want to play the class by the book, then I wouldn't bother until level 9. So either look for a game starting at higher level or wait until a higher level character dies off.

[Kvess]

I don’t mind that Tokens of the Departed comes online at level 9. It’s a very flavourful ability, but the boosts it provides are both fairly subtle and fitting for a character at the end of tier 2. I wouldn’t want someone taking a three level rogue dip to get advantage on constitution saving throws.

Wails from the Grave (half sneak attack damage to a second target) and Whispers of the Dead (floating skill or tool proficiency) are pretty decent abilities that will be useful often throughout a rogue’s career. I think the subclass is comparable in power to Arcane Trickster, without being an obvious default choice.

[MrStabby]

I don’t mind that Tokens of the Departed comes online at level 9. It’s a very flavourful ability, but the boosts it provides are both fairly subtle and fitting for a character at the end of tier 2. I wouldn’t want someone taking a three level rogue dip to get advantage on constitution saving throws.

Wails from the Grave (half sneak attack damage to a second target) and Whispers of the Dead (floating skill or tool proficiency) are pretty decent abilities that will be useful often throughout a rogue’s career. I think the subclass is comparable in power to Arcane Trickster, without being an obvious default choice.

I think that it is some of the elements of tokens of the departed that make me want to like the class and somewhat resent how late it is. Other subtle death thmed abilities like being able to cast the Speak With Dead spell come online at level 5. For a class with such a strong death theme to have to wait 4 levels more to have an equally cool, thematic and exceptional ability feels kind of rough.

[Kvess]

You are still a rogue. You’ve got cunning action, expertise, uncanny dodge, and evasion on top of whispers of the dead and wails from the grave. It’s not like you are exactly hurting for actions or ways to contribute to your party (in or out of combat) until you get those tokens.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Part of what feels so bad about the tokens coming at 9th level is the same problem that all rogue subclasses share:

Rogue subclass levels are a hot mess. Having to wait from 3rd level to 9th level just feels awful. That's why it's essential to set up the feel of the class at 3rd, and Phantom... feels kinda lacking. I'd have much preferred a nerfed version of the tokens at 3rd level and the floating skill shoved to 9th. I'd toss the SA boost, but basically every Rogue subclass alters SA at 3rd level in some way, so it can keep it.

[RingoBongo]

I like it as is. This is coming from someone currently playing one (peace cleric 1, phantom 4 - kobold xbe and eventually sharpshooter)

Most lvl 3 rogue features are infact defining, yet limited in power in some way. This one is hard capped by number of uses per long rest, yes. But it is soft capped in the fact that once you hit level 5 you add another necrotic sneak attack die. Not great but still an improvement.

Then look at rogue level 9 features. They are all not great. But this is one rogue level 9 features that kicks butt in comparison to other lvl 9 features. Most rogue's have to wait for 13 for a power boost like phantom's get. Additionally around at the same time proficiency bonus bumps up to 4 (more soul tokens and wails of the grave) AND your sneak attack scales again to an odd number of die and you are adding 3d6 splash (consistently now) while also holding on to con save proficiency..

Long story short. No other rogue gets the boost phantom gets at 9 and it's well suited for a rogue who does not use reaction (typically a ranged attacker).

[PhantomSoul]

(...)
Long story short. No other rogue gets the boost phantom gets at 9 and it's well suited for a rogue who does not use reaction (typically a ranged attacker).

It sounds like you enjoy it because it's potent rather than because the theme fits or is consistent or because the flavour works. Is that accurate?

My big problem... is pretty much entirely the OP. Plus making trinkets just feels wrong -- I want it to be fleeting lights or non-hot flames that float around you... not a random object that appears on a rogue with no apparent connection to anything. And like the OP, I then want this to be what the subclass is built from as a level 3 feature. I'd find getting bonus proficiencies on a freaking rogue less gag-worthy if it at least tied to that mechanic (but really, more proficiencies... on a rogue... what, was there a moment when another character got to do something skill-based / non-magical outside of combat and that was a problem? xD), and making it advantage is nicer (as mentioned above). It's a concept that seemed like it could be really cool... and I just end up being disappointed with basically all of it (and playing with one confirmed it).

Also agreed with the recurring point that getting your second subclass feature at level 9 is disappointing!

[quindraco]

Theme is what you make of it - you can reflavor any class or subclass as you see fit. I don't really care how thematically Phantoms embrace the way Tasha's presents them, because if I play one, I'm going to completely change how I present it. What matters are the abilities.

In that vein, Phantoms only have three poorly conceived abilities:


Wails from the Grave jumping from pb/long rest to infinite use at level 9 is ridiculous. The subclass just doesn't do enough from levels 3 to 8 to make you feel genuinely distinct - from 3 to 8, it's just going to be more fun to be an Arcane Trickster. If you like the ghost theme, just pretend your mage hand and familiar are spoopy. If infinite use at level 9 is balanced, 3/long rest at level 8 is underpowered. This should be, at worst, like Bardic Inspiration is at L5+: ability modifier times per short rest.
The third bullet of Tokens of the Departed is nearly entirely useless - you can only get useful information out of someone willing to cooperate, i.e. usually an ally or perhaps an innocent bystander. You should have more mechanisms to compel the target to provide useful testimony, even if those mechanisms are unreliable (e.g. if the token applied a Zone of Truth to the spirit, so there was at least a chance at an honest answer, and if the use of the token temporarily gave the Phantom proficiency in every language the spirit knew, preventing the target from simply answering in an unknown tongue). Soul Cage has no such problems, I'll point out.
The second bullet of the L17 ability won't do anything in almost any campaign. Long rests include 2 hours of wakeful activity, which is plenty of time to make a token of the departed if you need one, and making one is literally as challenging as eating breakfast. This should really have been letting you collect tokens at infinite range if you dealt the killing blow.


This is how I'd redo it:

L3:
Whispers of the Dead: You can cast Find Familiar as a ritual; when you do so, it has the form of a specter, rather than the forms normally available, and its type is undead. Your familiar is proficient in a number equal to your proficiency bonus of languages, skills, and/or tools. It loses the life drain action and gains the following action:
Invisibility.
The specter magically turns invisible until it attacks, or until its concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). Any equipment the specter wears or carries is invisible with it.
Wails of the Grave: You can cast Hex as a ritual, with a spell level equal to 1/4 your Rogue level. Your Hex only adds extra necrotic damage to your Sneak Attacks.

L9:
Tokens of the Departed's benefits:

Advantage on Con and Death saves while you have a token on you.
You can spend a token to cast Hex at its normal casting speed without any components at a spell level equal to 1/4 your Rogue level. You can also spend a token to select a new creature to Hex, as per the spell's rules; doing so does not cost you a bonus action and lets you change which ability your Hex is targeting. Your Hex is otherwise unchanged.
As an action, destroy a token and telepathically ask the trapped soul a question; it automatically understands you when you do so. You receive a telepathic answer, which you can understand regardless of the language used. The soul knows only what it knew in life, but it must answer you truthfully and to the best of its ability. Once its answer is complete, it departs.


L13:
While in ghost form, you have vulnerability to radiant damage, and you make no sound unless you choose to. Otherwise, keep the current version.

L17:

You can collect tokens at any range, provided you dealt the killing blow.
The extra necrotic damage your Hex inflicts is now equal to half your Sneak Attack dice, rounded up.

[MrStabby]

It sounds like you enjoy it because it's potent rather than because the theme fits or is consistent or because the flavour works. Is that accurate?

My big problem... is pretty much entirely the OP. Plus making trinkets just feels wrong -- I want it to be fleeting lights or non-hot flames that float around you... not a random object that appears on a rogue with no apparent connection to anything. And like the OP, I then want this to be what the subclass is built from as a level 3 feature. I'd find getting bonus proficiencies on a freaking rogue less gag-worthy if it at least tied to that mechanic (but really, more proficiencies... on a rogue... what, was there a moment when another character got to do something skill-based / non-magical outside of combat and that was a problem? xD), and making it advantage is nicer (as mentioned above). It's a concept that seemed like it could be really cool... and I just end up being disappointed with basically all of it (and playing with one confirmed it).

Also agreed with the recurring point that getting your second subclass feature at level 9 is disappointing!

Advantage would be good. I do like the idea of a ghostly mentor taking the help action.

I don't mind the trinkets though - not sure why. I guess some kind of physical item just... appearing somewhere is pretty spooky. Also the ability for a good DM to describe the item in a way that adds to the character of the dead or to the world is quite nice.

[Kvess]

Plus making trinkets just feels wrong -- I want it to be fleeting lights or non-hot flames that float around you... not a random object that appears on a rogue with no apparent connection to anything.


Stealing valuables is fairly archetypal for a rogue. I like the idea of a rogue who found a way to steal something intangible from spirits, and the flavour for the class suggests that they are servants for a god who is essentially a cosmic magpie that oversees death.

[Catullus64]

Tokens of the Departed really seems like the meat of the subclass, both crunch and fluff-wise; without Soul Tokens to spend, the class's resources feel stingy, a particular sin for a subclass of the largely resource-less Rogue. As it is, I think the class looks really good at Level 9+, but before that is quite lackluster. I feel like a lesser version of Tokens of the Departed should have been folded into 3rd Level, possibly incorporating or replacing the uninspired Whispers of the Dead.

I've got no problem with Wails from the Grave; most Rogue subclasses include some mild iteration on baseline Sneak Attack, and allowing a little multi-target add for a heavily single-target class seems like a good idea, though perhaps it could have been made more interesting.

Death Knell may not be very fancy, but Rogue subclass capstones are already all over the place. It's not in the "game-changing awesome" category of Thief's Reflexes or Sudden Strike, but nor is it in the "one-off trick that may or may not actually work" realm of Death Strike or Spell Thief. It's about on par with Eye for Weakness or Master Duelist.

I definitely agree that two additional magic Rogues is starting to feel crowded; Tasha's also added three magic Fighters and two magic Barbarians. I hope that future publications put more investment into mundane subclasses for the mundane classes, although the poor Barbarian needs it more than anyone, since the only nonmagical Barbarian subclasses are the much-maligned Berserker and the everyone-forgets-it-exists Battlerager (which, unlike the Bladesinger, didn't see a reprint for some reason).

[PhantomSoul]

Stealing valuables is fairly archetypal for a rogue. I like the idea of a rogue who found a way to steal something intangible from spirits, and the flavour for the class suggests that they are servants for a god who is essentially a cosmic magpie that oversees death.

Stealing is, and stealing souls is cool... but stealing souls that somehow takes the form of a random object that just conveniently appears? Meh. That's is a book of "here's a magic item as a (sub)class feature", and they didn't just have you create vials or soul jars or special objects for THIS? It just feels like they missed the way I'd plausibly tolerate (magic item as a subclass feature) and the way I'd enjoy (lean into this being weird and creepy and a soul to make something more interesting and flavourful than a random object that may or may not force your DM to come up with something appropriate when they're in the middle of running combat).

I love the potential of the Phantom... but it basically just becomes inspiration for homebrew to me.


EDIT:

... and the everyone-forgets-it-exists Battlerager (which, unlike the Bladesinger, didn't see a reprint for some reason).

I guess the devs forgot it exists too!

[Catullus64]

Stealing is, and stealing souls is cool... but stealing souls that somehow takes the form of a random object that just conveniently appears? Meh. That's is a book of "here's a magic item as a (sub)class feature", and they didn't just have you create vials or soul jars or special objects for THIS? It just feels like they missed the way I'd plausibly tolerate (magic item as a subclass feature) and the way I'd enjoy (lean into this being weird and creepy and a soul to make something more interesting and flavourful than a random object that may or may not force your DM to come up with something appropriate when they're in the middle of running combat).


Lots of subclasses have this problem, where the flavor text is steeped in so much abstraction that it feels meaningless. I think a much better wording that would have given a stronger theme is that these objects are replications of important items from the memories of the slain. It would fit in better with the theme of stealing knowledge from the dead, and would provide a good guideline for DMs to improvise what the items are.

[Waazraath]

So does anyone have anything good to say about the Phantom in its defence? Any suggestions on how you might improve it or change it to fit your vision? So far, for me, it's just another example of typical Trasha's content-bloat; pointless and lacking vivre.

Yeah - you have some decent point, but the overall judgement is far too harsh afaic. As for the feel, yeah, somehow it's weird that the supernatural abilities come from seemingly nowhere, but on the other hand, that really isn't that obvious in the spellcasting monks, in the arcane archer, or any bard, for that matter. Personally, I like to have a character to be a bit coherent, so when I play one I'll take a dhampir lineage, and have the supernatural powers come from there (and it synergizes well with rogue), but it's no biggy.

Compared to other rogues, the niche is more interesting than for example the mastermind (whose abilities don't really cover what it should be imo) or the scout (which overlaps with the ranger too much for my taste. I think the PHB caut the 3 archetypes for the rogues really well, anything new will be probably less archetypical, but that doesn't mean its less interresting.

As for the abilities, I think they are very interesting, especially the lvl 9 one. Yeah, it's a bit late, and I can see why people would have wanted some of it at 3, but then again: they are really, really strong, and flavorful - I don't mind waiting. What they get at 3 is fine - a slightly raising damage increase fitting the theme, and a flavored floating skill or tool, again, decently given the fluff. I don't understand why you look down on number increases - that's exactly what other rogue subclasses get as well at some point when gaining levels, if they wouldn't get them the subclass would be lacking in damage.


So it's fun, and atm at the top of my lists of rogues I'd like to play.

[Person_Man]

Honestly?

I’m of the opinion most, if not nearly all, Rogue subclasses are a complete mess.

I agree, though it pains me to say this, because I conceptually love the 5E Rogue and it has many of my favorite class features.

Sneak Attack is a straight forward and flexible at-will damage bonus that scales with levels and encourages teamwork. (Whereas most other classes have to stack a bunch of different features together, sometimes in unintuitive ways). Expertise lets you pick a few key skills much more effective. Cunning Action makes you much more mobile and gives you something useful to do with your Bonus Action other than TWF. Assassinate gives you a huge first round damage bump and strongly encourages parties to actually plan ambushes. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are great defenses. And there are a few other gems I’m sure I’m forgetting

BUT, after level 7ish the class just doesn’t keep up with most others in power or versatility, and the subclasses are just a mess, as most clearly demonstrated by Phantom Rogue.

For this reason, I’m very liberal about allowing homebrew fixes for non-full casters. For Rogue specifically, I just let players pick class features of the appropriate level as they progress (rather than locking them into a subclass), and if they’re weak let them pick an extra where needed.

[Catullus64]

I agree, though it pains me to say this, because I conceptually love the 5E Rogue and it has many of my favorite class features.

Sneak Attack is a straight forward and flexible at-will damage bonus that scales with levels and encourages teamwork. (Whereas most other classes have to stack a bunch of different features together, sometimes in unintuitive ways). Expertise lets you pick a few key skills much more effective. Cunning Action makes you much more mobile and gives you something useful to do with your Bonus Action other than TWF. Assassinate gives you a huge first round damage bump and strongly encourages parties to actually plan ambushes. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are great defenses. And there are a few other gems I’m sure I’m forgetting

BUT, after level 7ish the class just doesn’t keep up with most others in power or versatility, and the subclasses are just a mess, as most clearly demonstrated by Phantom Rogue.

For this reason, I’m very liberal about allowing homebrew fixes for non-full casters. For Rogue specifically, I just let players pick class features of the appropriate level as they progress (rather than locking them into a subclass), and if they’re weak let them pick an extra where needed.

I don't agree that the subclasses themselves are overall flawed, though some, like Assassin and Mastermind, are in fact deeply flawed. I think the uneven spacing of subclass features is much more to blame, particularly that long gap between 3rd and 9th level.

As for the overall class's performance at the higher levels, I don't think Rogue is at all weak, it's just that their power curve is far smoother and more gradual than just about any other class; they don't have the spikes that full casters or even other martials have, so it can feel like they're not getting anything too special. But their damage output, even if it never outperforms damage-maximized builds, is always respectable, and scales evenly, and a high-level Rogue is surprisingly difficult to kill in spite of low numerical defenses. Reliable Talent keeps Rogues as the premier high-level skillmonkey. Other classes increase their effectiveness more drastically, but Rogue already has such a rock-solid foundation in the early and mid levels that it doesn't really need to.

[MrStabby]

I don't agree that the subclasses themselves are overall flawed, though some, like Assassin and Mastermind, are in fact deeply flawed. I think the uneven spacing of subclass features is much more to blame, particularly that long gap between 3rd and 9th level.

As for the overall class's performance at the higher levels, I don't think Rogue is at all weak, it's just that their power curve is far smoother and more gradual than just about any other class; they don't have the spikes that full casters or even other martials have, so it can feel like they're not getting anything too special. But their damage output, even if it never outperforms damage-maximized builds, is always respectable, and scales evenly, and a high-level Rogue is surprisingly difficult to kill in spite of low numerical defenses. Reliable Talent keeps Rogues as the premier high-level skillmonkey. Other classes increase their effectiveness more drastically, but Rogue already has such a rock-solid foundation in the early and mid levels that it doesn't really need to.

Honestly, the damage thing depends on DM style. If the DM is handing out +2 weapons then the fighter with pole arm mastery is going to pull ahead... really anything with two attack is going to like that kind of game and the rogue will fall behind. I don't think the rogue falls that far behind in at-will damage though but at higher levels the other martial characters get more ways and more resources to boost damage. Paladins get more spell slots in addition to improved divine smite and spells like magic weapon, divine favour and elemental weapon. Monks (a modest damage class at high levels) can flurry more often, barbrians rage more, battlemasters get more superiority dice...

Personally I think the rogue sufers due to lack of a niche. It does a bundle of things really well that spells can do ust a bit better and it can fight pretty well but not rivalling half of the classes in the game. I think it is really well designed, for a different game. It is a great class in a world where the options that step on its toes a bit too hard don't exist.

Whilst the power gap is real, that doesn't bother me much. In any list that isn't totally homogenious there will be some class or other comming bottom by some metric. I do agree to your point about the gap in levels though and think that is the bigger issue. That and the relatively low power boost from the subclass at low levels. A paladin, for example will get two channel divinity options at level 3, domain spells at levels 3 and 5 and 9 and a subclass ability at level 7. So many levels give a boost to the theme and they are a major part of the class.

[neonchameleon]

I definitely agree that two additional magic Rogues is starting to feel crowded

Before Tasha's we had one magic rogue in the Arcane Trickster and six non-magic ones; two from the PHB and four from Xanathar's. I think that the rogue might be finished until the 10th/50th anniversary edition in 2024 when I hope it gets a polish. There are two things the rogue could get that went to other classes; Ninja (monk) and Trapsmith (artificer)


BUT, after level 7ish the class just doesn’t keep up with most others in power or versatility, and the subclasses are just a mess, as most clearly demonstrated by Phantom Rogue.

I'd have said the rogue hung in there until level 11. At level 8 it gets an ASI which, fair enough. The non-casters should also get an extra to go with their ASIs as the casters get more spells. At level 9 it's subclass feature and some of these (like Soulknife) are good. Others (like Assassin) aren't but that's not a problem with the base class - although that this isn't a L7 thing rather than L9 is. At level 10 they get an extra ASI and your third ASI is the last of your really good ones; two to take your core stat to level 20 and a third for your first feat. It's only with your second feat that wasn't something you wanted first that they really drop off. And at level 11 Reliable Talent is awesome. After that? Not so much.

[sayaijin]

Personally I think the rogue sufers due to lack of a niche. It does a bundle of things really well that spells can do ust a bit better and it can fight pretty well but not rivalling half of the classes in the game. I think it is really well designed, for a different game. It is a great class in a world where the options that step on its toes a bit too hard don't exist.



The rogue's niche is skills. However important the DM makes skills, the more important having a rogue is. Yes, there are other ways to get expertise, but the rogue is the most dedicated to skills. I've actually thought a few times that rogues should get a scaling version of reliable talent earlier in the game, but I digress.

Since rogues are all in on skills, they are severely hurt by the lack of skill content in the books, but I understand the purpose of 5e is simplicity.

For me, if I have a rogue in my party and I'm a spellcaster, I will probably stop preparing skill-related spells. Let the rogue pick the locks and convince people with crazy persuasion.

[Deathtongue]

The rogue's niche is skills. However important the DM makes skills, the more important having a rogue is. Yes, there are other ways to get expertise, but the rogue is the most dedicated to skills. I've actually thought a few times that rogues should get a scaling version of reliable talent earlier in the game, but I digress.I feel the exact opposite. 5E D&D -- and really, 3E D&D -- should've never made a 'I'm good at ALL THE SKILLS' class. Because one of these things happens.

A) The game designers/individual DM/book balances things around the skill monkey. This means that if you don't have a bard or rogue or something weird like a Peace Domain Cleric with Martial Adept: Tactical Assessment + Commanding Presence your party ends up being skill-gated by a bunch of things. Encouraging murderhoboism or begging spellcasters to circumvent challenges entirely.

B) The game designers/individual DM/book balances things around the non-skill monkeys. If someone plays a skill-monkey they end up crushing the challenges. This encourages the DM to make skill checks less consequential for the same reason why games which actually let you play an 'actually, I win all of the combats, because I'm awesome' character like EDGE or Dungeon World have simple combat systems and don't make it the end-all, be-all of adventure progression.

Having archetypes or classes that are unstoppable at certain, non-gamewinning aspects of the game is one thing. I think the wizard being the go-to character if you want to crush Arcana checks is fine in theory. Having a class who is unstoppable at broad aspects of the game like skill checks is not fine. It either ends up making the game too hard when you don't have the class or encourages DMs to make that part of the game unimportant.

[Abracadangit]

Having archetypes or classes that are unstoppable at certain, non-gamewinning aspects of the game is one thing. I think the wizard being the go-to character if you want to crush Arcana checks is fine in theory. Having a class who is unstoppable at broad aspects of the game like skill checks is not fine. It either ends up making the game too hard when you don't have the class or encourages DMs to make that part of the game unimportant.

Hear, hear. I've always found it silly that a bard or a rogue can, with very little effort, be better than the wizard at Arcana, better than the cleric at Religion, better than the ranger at Survival, etc, etc. It's like... how can we even call the non-combat parts of the game "pillars" if there are classes that can walk all over it. Personally, I think anyone should be allowed to buy expertise in a skill at the cost of two skill proficiencies, and that every char in the game should get one Reliable Talent at level one so there's one skill check where you feel like you're safe. Maybe it even says something about the character, like a bookworm's Talent is History, right. BUT. This is sort of controversial and not everybody's bag.

I think part of the problem with the Phantom isn't just the mechanics - it's that their whole kit feels tonally garbled and scattershot. So they've got this ability to start that lets them insta-acquire a skill/tool proficiency from... who, exactly? A benevolent ghost that's like "Oh hey, I used to be a mason, here you go, it's all in the wrist"? I thought the Phantom's schtick was soul manipulation, weaponization, etc, not learning skills from the damned. This feels like something that should belong to a Grave Cleric or Spirits Bard or something similar - someone who communicates with spirits to ease their suffering, not some scowling assassin who harvests souls. Then we've got the necrotic splash sneak attack, which is like - ok. I can't even really visualize that. The wails of the dead are attacking the other guy? Or something? Wat. Why not just have an ability which momentarily charges your weapon with spectral energy, giving your sneak attack bonus necrotic damage AND the ability to strike into the ethereal plane AND some kind of Chill Touch rider so they can't heal this turn, or similar necrotic-themed debuff? I'm just spitballing here, but I feel like a wraithblade-type strike FEELS way more in line with what they were going for than... wails of the dead splash necrotic whatever.

And then we get the soul trinkets, which honestly I'm not that jazzed about, but other people like them, so why not. Then a ghostwalking ability? Is that really necromantic? And then yeah, subclass capstone is meh.

They really just need to finally get the Thief and the Assassin their own dang classes, then they can make a third-caster necromancy/divination spec subclass for Assassin, call it Phantom, and then this will all click way sharper. THAT would be cool, right? Like an assassin that either studies necromancy on the side, or straight-up WORKS for a death extraplanar (a la warlock patron) who grants them these gnarly powers. But right now, it's jumbled, confused, and thematically tangled up.

[sayaijin]

I feel the exact opposite. 5E D&D -- and really, 3E D&D -- should've never made a 'I'm good at ALL THE SKILLS' class. Because one of these things happens.

A) The game designers/individual DM/book balances things around the skill monkey. This means that if you don't have a bard or rogue or something weird like a Peace Domain Cleric with Martial Adept: Tactical Assessment + Commanding Presence your party ends up being skill-gated by a bunch of things. Encouraging murderhoboism or begging spellcasters to circumvent challenges entirely.

B) The game designers/individual DM/book balances things around the non-skill monkeys. If someone plays a skill-monkey they end up crushing the challenges. This encourages the DM to make skill checks less consequential for the same reason why games which actually let you play an 'actually, I win all of the combats, because I'm awesome' character like EDGE or Dungeon World have simple combat systems and don't make it the end-all, be-all of adventure progression.

Having archetypes or classes that are unstoppable at certain, non-gamewinning aspects of the game is one thing. I think the wizard being the go-to character if you want to crush Arcana checks is fine in theory. Having a class who is unstoppable at broad aspects of the game like skill checks is not fine. It either ends up making the game too hard when you don't have the class or encourages DMs to make that part of the game unimportant.

There are several different ways to overcome in-game obstacles. I generally lump them into three categories like you have in the portion of your comment I bolded: brute force, magic, and in the case of rogues - skills. Now, unless the player is using some crazy uber skill monkey build, they will likely have proficiency in 2 skills from their background and 4 from their class. If they take feats, (part of the uber skill monkey build), they can get to 9-10 which is about half of the skill list. As others have pointed out in this thread, they're not leading in damage, or tanking, or controlling the battlefield. Their niche is dominating those 6 skills. At session zero, if there's a rogue player, figure out what those skills are/should be so the rest of the party can avoid stepping on each other's toes. Have a wizard? Then maybe don't expertise arcane. Have a bard who plans to sweet talk their way into and out of trouble? Don't expertise persuasion.

As a DM, I just need to know what they expertised until level 11, then I need to know what all they're proficient with. By level 11, my wizard is figuring out how to rewrite the world around them, so why can't my rogue do the same?

Back to the Phantom in particular, don't play it until your character is at least level 9 or use some homebrew version of the subclass.