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Frosty
2007-11-14, 06:52 PM
I'm looking to build a Druid who can definitely take care of himself but doesn't cheese out to the point where the other group members are redundant. I don't know who else will be in the group so I want to able to do a bit of everything (summoning, casting, crushing things in wildshape). I'm going straight Druid, so that's easy, but I need some help with Feats and spell selection. I'm starting off with a Fleshraker companion.

I have this stat array to mess around with [10] [14] [15] [16] [16] [18] and we're starting at level 7 so we have one point to spend on a stat. I'm not sure what race to go for.

I'm thinking of definitely getting Spell Focus (Conj) and Augment Summoning, Natural Spell (duh), and Leadership (getting a Druid Cohort who brings his own Fleshraker Companion).

Not sure what to get next. Either Wild Cohort for a Companion lite, Extend Spell for buff spells and over-time damage spells, Exalted Wildshape to be able to turn into a Blink Dog and DD all over the place, or maybe dragon wildshape to be able to fly above the battlefield and rain death from above while gaining dragon immunities.

Nebo_
2007-11-14, 06:54 PM
Level 1: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Level 3: Augment Summoning
Level 6: Natural Spell
Level 9: Nothing else
Level 12: matters, because
Level 15: you win
Level 18: at D&D.

Seriously...

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 18
Cha 15

Natural Bond to give your companion that extra edge.
Greenbound Summoning if you really want to make your DM frustrated.
Extend spell is a great buff and summon augment.

MCerberus
2007-11-14, 06:55 PM
Summing Dire Bears + Being a Dire Beard = profit.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-14, 07:03 PM
As with a cleric, much of your optimization comes in at what spells you choose to prepare (or what broken form you're allowed to wildhshape into. *Cough*Fleshraker*Cough*)

Temp
2007-11-14, 07:04 PM
Being a Dire BeardTypo or not, that is awesome.

Also, Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE) and Greenbound Summoning (Something of Faerun... I can't think of it now...) are nice boosts.

Summon Elemental (CC) is great; it's like a free disposable party member.

MCerberus
2007-11-14, 07:10 PM
Yes I think it's a plant shape that makes you able to strangle people if they decide they'd look stylish wearing the beard.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 07:11 PM
As with a cleric, much of your optimization comes in at what spells you choose to prepare (or what broken form you're allowed to wildhshape into. *Cough*Fleshraker*Cough*)

What spells are really good for Druid? I heard about a spell called Creeping Cold or something but I don't know what it does.

I don't have Unapproachable East and it won't fit my RP flavor to change my summons into plants. Will my summons be underpowered with just Augment Summoning?

And do I really want to shift into a Fleshraker? I've already got two under my command thanks to my Druid cohort.

tyckspoon
2007-11-14, 07:13 PM
Wait, what? You plan to have a Fleshraker companion, use Leadership to gain another Druid as a Cohort, take feats that let you get even more impressive Wildshape options, and you don't want cheese? The cognitive dissonance, it is giving me a headache.

Temp
2007-11-14, 07:13 PM
You always want to turn into a Fleshraker.


...Or some sort of Monkey with a Fell Drain-ed Flame Blade... that's a good 'un too.

MCerberus
2007-11-14, 07:16 PM
Entangle
Abuse your spontaneous casting as much as possible (at level 7 you can have an incredibly large amount of creatures in the field with trip/grapple attacks)
Faerie Fire is great against certain types of opponents... oh and BAM
Obscuring Mist - combine with the above
Plus you have healing spells



... and that's just level 1.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 07:23 PM
Wait, what? You plan to have a Fleshraker companion, use Leadership to gain another Druid as a Cohort, take feats that let you get even more impressive Wildshape options, and you don't want cheese? The cognitive dissonance, it is giving me a headache.

Well it's just that the some of the others say they'll be optimizing, and I want to be competent, but not quite overshadowing the others. The ones that will definitely try to optimize are the Favored Soul, Hexblade, and Fighter/Monk

ocato
2007-11-14, 07:24 PM
I like to turn into a bear. It isn't super powerful or optimipwning or anything. I just feel like Dire Bear is classic druid. I'm thinking about submitting a halfling druid to a high level game on the pbp section who rides his dire lion, summons loads of animals, and only wild shapes when absolutely necessary. Is it t3h awesome? Meh. I'd enjoy it.

tyckspoon
2007-11-14, 07:28 PM
Well it's just that the some of the others say they'll be optimizing, and I want to be competent, but not quite overshadowing the others. The ones that will definitely try to optimize are the Favored Soul, Hexblade, and Fighter/Monk

Unless they know some secret dark art of optimization that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere yet, you're probably already achieving your desired level of competency just by being a Druid.

Temp
2007-11-14, 07:29 PM
Well it's just that the some of the others say they'll be optimizing, and I want to be competent, but not quite overshadowing the others. The ones that will definitely try to optimize are the Favored Soul, Hexblade, and Fighter/MonkA Favored Soul, Hexblade and Fighter/Monk?

And you're:
1)playing a Druid
2)with a Fleshraker companion
3)and the Leadership feat
4)for a Druid cohort

...so-as not to be overshadowed?

That is what we call overkill.

greenknight
2007-11-14, 07:37 PM
I'm looking to build a Druid who can definitely take care of himself but doesn't cheese out to the point where the other group members are redundant.

There's your problem. Nearly all full spellcasters (with only a few exceptions not including Druid) are made of cheese, so unless the rest of the party are also full spellcasters then at the mid to high levels it's going to be very hard not to completely outshine them.

So, if you don't want to outshine them and they aren't all spellcasters, I suggest you don't take Natural Spell, you don't have an Animal Companion of any kind, and you only use Wild Shape for combat. Also, do not take Leadership, unless you have something like a Fighter or Monk as your Cohort (and even that might be too much of a boost to your already awesome abilities).


I don't know who else will be in the group so I want to able to do a bit of everything (summoning, casting, crushing things in wildshape). I'm going straight Druid, so that's easy, but I need some help with Feats and spell selection. I'm starting off with a Fleshraker companion.

Do all that, and add the feats you mentioned, and you're almost certainly going to outshine the non-spellcasters. At your starting level, you'll probably even outshine the other spellcasters, at least for a little while.


I have this stat array to mess around with [10] [14] [15] [16] [16] [18] and we're starting at level 7 so we have one point to spend on a stat. I'm not sure what race to go for.

Go for Half-Orc, since of all the standard races that one gives the least benefit to a Druid. Do not be a Human, since that powers up the Druid class even more.


Not sure what to get next. Either Wild Cohort for a Companion lite, Extend Spell for buff spells and over-time damage spells, Exalted Wildshape to be able to turn into a Blink Dog and DD all over the place, or maybe dragon wildshape to be able to fly above the battlefield and rain death from above while gaining dragon immunities.

Exalted Wildshape might be the least powerful of those choices, so that's the one you should go for if you're trying to reduce the Druid's power - especially if you don't have Natural Spell.

Gerrtt
2007-11-14, 07:38 PM
Is Spell Focus really beneficial to summon monster spells, or am I missing something? I know they are conjuration spells but I didn't think Spell Focus did anything except change DCs, which there aren't any for Monster Spells....right?

Edit:

Nevermind, missed that Augment Summoning was in there. My bad.

ocato
2007-11-14, 07:59 PM
Don't castrate yourself, that won't help you or them. I understand toning it down, but certainly don't make obviously detrimental decisions either, like a race with a penalty to wisdom or only casting goodberry and shillelagh. Try taking an animal companion from the SRD suggested ones, like a wolf or something. They're effective and classic without being t3h pwnzor. Augment Summoning is a good feat for a middle of the road druid. If you have races of the wild, you might like the halfling substitution levels if halfling seems like a good race to take. You get some nice little additives to your pet in terms of riding him, you get a few spontaineous castings of good spells to share with your mount like protection from energy and jump, and your wildshape is minorly nerfed. Pretty much your base wild shape is small and tiny, then you get large and diminuitive later. Skip natural spell and take some light metamagic like extend spell. You'll be better than a few members of the party, but the sky won't spin on your whimsy.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 08:43 PM
but the sky won't spin on your whimsy.

Isn't there a Druid spell that does that? :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2007-11-14, 08:45 PM
A Favored Soul, Hexblade and Fighter/Monk?

I understand that the Monk needs work (the player wanted to be a martial artist), but what's wrong with the Favored Soul and Hexblade?

MCerberus
2007-11-14, 08:49 PM
Isn't there a Druid spell that does that? :smallbiggrin:

Storm of Vengeance isn't very whimsical.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 08:52 PM
Maybe I can take non-optimal feats like Improved Toughness.

AlterForm
2007-11-14, 08:54 PM
Maybe I can take non-optimal feats like Improved Toughness.

Fixed it for you.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-14, 09:12 PM
Don't castrate yourself, that won't help you or them. I understand toning it down, but certainly don't make obviously detrimental decisions either, like a race with a penalty to wisdom or only casting goodberry and shillelagh. Try taking an animal companion from the SRD suggested ones, like a wolf or something. They're effective and classic without being t3h pwnzor. Augment Summoning is a good feat for a middle of the road druid. If you have races of the wild, you might like the halfling substitution levels if halfling seems like a good race to take. You get some nice little additives to your pet in terms of riding him, you get a few spontaineous castings of good spells to share with your mount like protection from energy and jump, and your wildshape is minorly nerfed. Pretty much your base wild shape is small and tiny, then you get large and diminuitive later. Skip natural spell and take some light metamagic like extend spell. You'll be better than a few members of the party, but the sky won't spin on your whimsy.
Broken is made by a large power differential between players, not a matter of a very powerful character. In a party with three core-only monks, the fourth player taking spells from thirty different books to play a druid is broken. In a party with a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Druid who all powergame up the ying-yang, the core-only Monk is broken.

This may sound odd, but you do want to gimp your character to the level of the party. Now, you may not know how strong your party is going in - so do this mostly by spell selection. First few times out, load up on nothing but buff, debuff, and utility spells that will help the rest at the table shine - Barkskin for everybody, Greater Magic Fang for the Monk, Dispel Magic, healing spells, bull's strength, and so on. Keep the hard-to-change portion of the build strong (your feats, skills, and stat selection - take, for instance, a Dwarf with Spell Focus(Conjouration), Augment Summoning, and Natural Spell) but don't use it much; leave the easily changed portions of your build (spell selection and animal companion) focused on helping out everyone else. If you find you're not doing as well as others at the table, pick a good Wildshape form and self-buff, or Summon something fight for you. The next day, you can just change your selection. It's one of the benefits of a primary caster - you can re-tool to fit the situation on fairly short notice... including the metagame situation.


Storm of Vengeance isn't very whimsical.
How about Control Weather?

Fishy
2007-11-14, 09:30 PM
Friends Don't Let Friends Take Leadership.

My advice to you is to go and do whatever the heck you want, and forget *everything* you've ever read either here or on the CharOp boards. Just enjoy your game.

Hawriel
2007-11-14, 10:33 PM
Isn't there a Druid spell that does that? :smallbiggrin:

no its a potion of courage, aka bottle of wisky.

Temp
2007-11-14, 10:34 PM
I understand that the Monk needs work (the player wanted to be a martial artist), but what's wrong with the Favored Soul and Hexblade?The Favored Soul is inferior to the Cleric in nearly every way. It needs two statistics to cast spells (and it doesn't even get Turn Undead to fuel Charisma Synergy), it limits its spell list--removing one of the major strengths Divine Casters have, it has access to fewer spells and loses the few class abilities Clerics do get(no Domains for spells or abilities).

The Hexblade is a Full base attack class, which is nice, but its spell list is incredibly limited. It also has a nice case of MAD between Charisma (curses, spells, saves), Strength (damage, attacks), Dexterity (Light Armor only) and Constitution (Bad Fort saves and Light Armor). It's weak for a gish and its spell list doesn't synergize well with its melee role.

Neither are bad classes, but both have to work hard to meet the power of an unoptimized Druid. Using Leadership and Wild Shape cheese won't help them.

DSCrankshaw
2007-11-14, 10:47 PM
Well, if you want to tone down the druid without totally gimping it, try taking the PHB2 alternate class features. You give up wild shape, natural spell, spontaneous summon, and animal companion. What you get is a more limited form of shapeshifting at will (which is not compatible with natural spell), and spontaneous rejuventation (fast healing for self and all allies in range). It actually works pretty nice, and the druid's no longer so overpowered.

You can also combine it with a couple of levels of swordsage.

Turcano
2007-11-14, 10:49 PM
I don't have Unapproachable East and it won't fit my RP flavor to change my summons into plants. Will my summons be underpowered with just Augment Summoning?

RES pretty much puts a template on air elementals (giving them a 1/day use of cone of cold) and earth elementals (which gives them the Engulf ability).

And no, you probably won't be underpowered with just Augment Summoning; summon nature's ally is already slightly more powerful than summon monster (at least with elementals).

You don't have much to worry about; it's really hard to screw up a druid.

Frosty
2007-11-15, 12:01 AM
I guess one way to Gimp myself would be to put 11 is Wisdom, but that just doesn't make sense thematically.

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 12:04 AM
Druid? I have one of those. I roll a D[impossibly large], and the result is the feat I take, from the alphabetical master list at Wizard's. Psionic Body and Agile were my first two choices... and I'm still better then everyone else, which shows you how obviously better I am at D&D than everyon else. Like Rogue, sorry "rouges" in World of Warcraft- which I have a level 70 night elf tier 6 on Stupidgamehammer Sever. Because I'm so incredibly awesomer then everyone.

*resists urge to kill himself out of hyberbolic sarcasm*

Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 12:23 AM
You're looking to build a druid and you want help not making him suck?

*hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah*

Oh wait, you're serious let me laugh harder.

*HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*

Step 1: Don't put the 10 in wisdom.
Step 2: Don't take Profession (Village Idiot) as one of your skills.
Step 3: Actually, that doesn't matter either. Druid's don't use skills. Not even Concentration or Spellcraft is truly necessary.
Step 4: Don't take Skill Focus (Speak Language) as one of your feats.
Step 5: None, nevermind. Not even Natural Spell is required for druids to be good characters. Waste your feats all you want.
Step 6: I guess really the only advice I can give is don't wear metal armor. Seriously. That's all you need to do. For some reason scimitars are okay though...

Frosty
2007-11-15, 12:24 AM
I sense much anger in you over World of Grindcraft.

In any case, how beneficial is Spellcasting Prodigy to a Druid?

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 12:55 AM
I sense much anger in you over World of Grindcraft.

In true sportsman like conduct I hate the player(s) not the game, and then only those players whose conduct is mirrored in my statement.

leperkhaun
2007-11-15, 01:00 AM
Honestly....just play it right. Just because you CAN turn into a fleshraker and make the fighter cry, doesnt mean you HAVE too.

take natural spell......maybe.....imp natural weapon (bite) (i think thats it, makes your natural attack 1 size category larger)... and imp grapple.

While the fighter is taking out enemies, lock down one opponent with grapple and take them out. Augment that with healing for the party and you got a decent druid.

Frosty
2007-11-15, 01:15 AM
In an honest assesment, does the Druid really outperform the Fighter in terms of bashing peoples' heads in?

Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 01:22 AM
In an honest assesment, does the Druid really outperform the Fighter in terms of bashing peoples' heads in?

Yes. But only with good feat selection and spells. Actually, you just don't need to pick bad feats and spells. Anything half-decent will outperform the fighter.

Temp
2007-11-15, 01:23 AM
In an honest assesment, does the Druid really outperform the Fighter in terms of bashing peoples' heads in? Yes. The Druid loses 5 Base Attack. In exchange, it gets buffs, Wild Shape, an Animal Companion and Summons.
Buffs mean the Druid doesn't have to rely on his Wizard buddy to be useful.
Wild Shape means a Druid has better stats than the Fighter and always has the appropriate ability for the job.
The Animal Companion is a powerful force on its own; more so with Share Spell (when you want to fight) and the mass Buffs you'll likely be casting on Summons (when you want something else to fight).
And The Summons let you create a formidable melee force on the battlefield without risking your own well-being.

greenknight
2007-11-15, 03:02 AM
In an honest assesment, does the Druid really outperform the Fighter in terms of bashing peoples' heads in?

Maybe, maybe not. Your animal companion might not be quite as good as the party Fighter on it's own anymore, but if you've chosen a decent (combat worthy) one and just give it a couple of buffs, it's still pretty good at level 7. And if you add in your own Wild Shape and one or two (augmented) Nature's Allies, you should be able to lay down a smackdown the Fighter can't match.

But the thing which will really make the Fighter cry is that Druids are fairly useful even outside combat. Your character can help with scouting, healing, travel and Druids have some decent skill choices as well. So not only do you match (or maybe even beat) the Fighter at the only thing the class is really good for, you can do a whole lot more as well.

Leon
2007-11-15, 03:39 AM
I'm looking to build a Druid who can definitely take care of himself but doesn't cheese out to the point where the other group members are redundant. I don't know who else will be in the group so I want to able to do a bit of everything (summoning, casting, crushing things in wildshape). I'm going straight Druid, so that's easy, but I need some help with Feats and spell selection. I'm starting off with a Fleshraker companion.

I have this stat array to mess around with [10] [14] [15] [16] [16] [18] and we're starting at level 7 so we have one point to spend on a stat. I'm not sure what race to go for.

I'm thinking of definitely getting Spell Focus (Conj) and Augment Summoning, Natural Spell (duh), and Leadership (getting a Druid Cohort who brings his own Fleshraker Companion).

Not sure what to get next. Either Wild Cohort for a Companion lite, Extend Spell for buff spells and over-time damage spells, Exalted Wildshape to be able to turn into a Blink Dog and DD all over the place, or maybe dragon wildshape to be able to fly above the battlefield and rain death from above while gaining dragon immunities.

You say you dont want to cheese out.
Youve failed at the first hurdle with Natural Spell on the list of feats, fallen at the second for the Fleshraker abuse and are stumbling toward the third with crazy wildshape tangents



My advice to you is to go and do whatever the heck you want, and forget *everything* you've ever read either here or on the CharOp boards. Just enjoy your game.

QFT


Here's How i'd go about it

Human Shapeshift Druid 7
Feats
1st - Focus: Conjuration
Human Bonus - Augment Summoning
3rd - Wild Cohort
6th - Improved Natural Attack (Bite)

Stats
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 10

Gear
DragonHide Breastplate/Barding

Swooper
2007-11-15, 04:03 AM
Wow, this thread is almost as good as the 'Is swordsage really better than monk!?' thread a couple of days back :smallbiggrin:

I think Leon got it smack-on: Get the shapeshift variant from PHB2. And stay away from Leadership, especially to get another druid.

Frosty
2007-11-15, 11:30 AM
Sounds like a druid is so strong that even with stats of 8; 8; 8; 8; 15; 8 he can do well.

Setra
2007-11-15, 11:39 AM
Sounds like a druid is so strong that even with stats of 8; 8; 8; 8; 15; 8 he can do well.
Couldn't he do well with 8's across the board?

Or is Wisdom needed for Wildshape/Animal Companion?

Frosty
2007-11-15, 11:49 AM
Well it really depends on whether spellcasting is needed for druids.

Setra
2007-11-15, 12:00 PM
Well it really depends on whether spellcasting is needed for druids.
From what I can tell, Wildshape and animal companion alone let him dominate most other classes.

Frosty
2007-11-15, 12:01 PM
Anything that doesn't cast anyways.

Nevar
2007-11-15, 12:17 PM
My suggestion, since you are starting at lvl 7 multiclass a little. Check out splat books for combinations that will make you intesting and fun.

Races of the Wild:
Arcane Hierphant
Regular multiclassing
Druid/Cleric mix
Druid/Wizard mix
Druid/Sorcerer mix
Druid/Fighter
Druid/Barbain

All thouse could be fun it all depends on how the game is played out.

Frosty
2007-11-15, 12:42 PM
What about Beastmaster?

Leon
2007-11-16, 09:03 AM
This collection of Variants is good too (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58604/)

Overlard
2007-11-16, 09:27 AM
Sounds like a druid is so strong that even with stats of 8; 8; 8; 8; 15; 8 he can do well.
He could do with a good Con. His hit points don't benefit from his improved Con when wildshaped anymore.

Frosty
2007-11-16, 10:16 AM
I've decided to waste some feat slots on flavor stuff like Skill Focus (Handle Animal). Meh. I guess I won't have to worry about failing when teaching my AC any new tricks.

Temp
2007-11-16, 12:45 PM
Wait, wait...

You don't need to sabotage your build to avoid cheese. Just don't use Item Familiars, Fleshrakers, Leadership or Fell Drain-type feats. Optimization isn't an all-or-nothing issue.

If the rest of the group is optimizing as much as you originally claimed, keep the Druid class, keep Natural Spell, keep Augment Summoning, keep Quicken Spell and take a couple other good--not broken--feats like Natural Bond, Track, Extend Spell or Persistant Spell.

Frosty
2007-11-16, 07:45 PM
1) What is Fell Drain?

2) Persistent Spell isn't broken?

tyckspoon
2007-11-16, 07:54 PM
1) What is Fell Drain?

2) Persistent Spell isn't broken?

Fell Drain is a metamagic that attaches a level-drain effect to your spells. You already know that Enervation is a good spell (at least, you should know this) because level draining is such an efficient debuff; Fell Drain lets you attach that kind of effect to all of your spells.

And no, Persistent Spell isn't especially broken if you're paying full price for the level adjustment. Using Divine Metamagic to Persist things is broken, because you can use it to Persist spells long before you would normally be able to and (more importantly) you can use it to Persist spells that would otherwise have an adjusted spell level of 10 or greater and be therefore be unpersistable until you went Epic.

Temp
2007-11-16, 11:00 PM
Fell Drain isn't even particularly broken; just a bit strong if you're worried about outshining other party members. A third or fourth level spell (a Fell Drain-ed Produce Flame or Flame Blade) is going to do a bit of damage and each attack that hits is going to add a negative level to the enemy. It [probably] won't kill anything outright, but it's a nice boost.


2) Persistent Spell isn't broken?If you have a couple 1st-3rd level spells running all day at level 13-20, it's not really not going to be a big deal. You'll probably have magic items producing the same effects anyway.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-16, 11:41 PM
In an honest assesment, does the Druid really outperform the Fighter in terms of bashing peoples' heads in?

It depends on a number of DM rulings - but in general, yes, the Druid can.

Take a Human Druid vs. a Human Fighter.

Let's give them both the same stat array - say, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

At 1st, the Fighter with a Greatsword, putting the 18 in strength and taking Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, and... err... Improved Initiative (14 Dex, 16 Con, we don't care about his mental stats too much).
Initiative: +6
Attack: +6 for 2d6+6 or Power Attack for +5 for 2d6+8; 13 HP, AC 12+armor.

The Riding Dog attacks at +3 for 1d6+3, AC 16+armor, 13 HP.

If we get the Riding Dog trained for War (so it has barding proficiency) and drop it in some Hide Barding (30 gp, +3 Armor, +4 Max Dex) the dog is working with AC 19.

If we get the Fighter in Studded Leather (25 gp, +3 armor, +5 Max Dex) the Fighter is working at AC 15.

If the two go head-to-head in a slugfest, the Riding Dog hits on a 12 (45% chance) for an average damage (ignoring crits) of 2.925 damage per round.
The Fighter hits the Riding Dog on a 13 (40%, or 14 at 35% when Power Attacking) for an average of 5.2 (5.25 when Power Attacking) damage per round. Dog expects to go down in the third round, Fighter expects to go down in the fifth round. There's a slight issue, though - the Druid is still unaccounted for.

If the Druid Flanks the Fighter (let's say the Druid put the 18 in Wis, the 16 in Con, 14 Dex, 12 Str, 10 Int, 8 Cha) with, oh, a Club, hide armor, and a heavy wooden shield, then the Druid is attacking at +1 for 1d6+1, AC 17. Flanking, the Dog now hits on a 10 (55%) while the Druid hits on a 12 (45%) for an average damage per round (to the Fighter) of 5.6 damage per round. Fighter now goes down... on the third round - just like the Riding Dog that's flanking him (leaving the Druid).

Alternately, the Druid could simply cast Cure Light Wounds on the Riding Dog a few times.

Or, in other words, yes, the Druid has a decent chance to out fight a Fighter, from level 1 on, provided the Druid can make use of decent strategy while the Fighter has issues doing so.

Frosty
2007-11-17, 06:09 PM
How does a spell like Decomposition (Spell Compendium) which does damage every round work with Fell Drain? Does it drain a level each time damage is dealt?

Temp
2007-11-17, 06:36 PM
Actually, upon rereading the feat, it probably doesn't.

It's still an unnecessary boost for a blaster-type Druid and if it's allowed, it's sure to start arguments over its stacking.

KIDS
2007-11-17, 06:54 PM
Man, what the hell? Keep your hands off Fell Drain? If you keep asking about it, you're not going to totally cheese out the game, you're going to bury it under several metric tonnes of stinking, rich cheddar. With some gouda on top. And a dairy farm on top of it. Seriously.

Use PHB2 Shapeshift variant and you'll still be very strong but not cheesy or powerful. But no matter what, Leadership for Druid and Fleshrakers as companions or shapes are doom. I seriously doubt a Hexblade is optimizable to a level of even your animal companion. Let it go and your life will be happier...

Kizara
2007-11-17, 08:17 PM
Drd 1 Companion Spell (PHB2), Natural Bond (CAdv)
Drd 2
Drd 3 Skill focus (handle animal) (you will see why)
Drd 4 (get your fleshraker)
Drd 5 (now you can wildshape into a fleshraker also)
Beastmaster 1 (Cdiv) (now you have 2 fleshrakers) Natural Spell
Drd 6
Drd 7
Drd 8 Power Attack

Notable buffs: Animalistic Power (PHB2), Magic Fang, Greater (+1 to all attacks version), Thorn Skin (CArc)

You can probably do even better if you raid the spell compendium, but there's power in a halfshell. I'm not even sure you CAN take leadership to get more fleshrakers, but if that actually works, that would be a very viable 9th level feat.

I'm aware my build loses 1 level of casting, but I think 2 fleshrakers (at full bonuses) is wroth it.

Kizara
2007-11-17, 08:19 PM
It depends on a number of DM rulings - but in general, yes, the Druid can.

Take a Human Druid vs. a Human Fighter.

Let's give them both the same stat array - say, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

At 1st, the Fighter with a Greatsword, putting the 18 in strength and taking Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, and... err... Improved Initiative (14 Dex, 16 Con, we don't care about his mental stats too much).
Initiative: +6
Attack: +6 for 2d6+6 or Power Attack for +5 for 2d6+8; 13 HP, AC 12+armor.

The Riding Dog attacks at +3 for 1d6+3, AC 16+armor, 13 HP.

If we get the Riding Dog trained for War (so it has barding proficiency) and drop it in some Hide Barding (30 gp, +3 Armor, +4 Max Dex) the dog is working with AC 19.

If we get the Fighter in Studded Leather (25 gp, +3 armor, +5 Max Dex) the Fighter is working at AC 15.

If the two go head-to-head in a slugfest, the Riding Dog hits on a 12 (45% chance) for an average damage (ignoring crits) of 2.925 damage per round.
The Fighter hits the Riding Dog on a 13 (40%, or 14 at 35% when Power Attacking) for an average of 5.2 (5.25 when Power Attacking) damage per round. Dog expects to go down in the third round, Fighter expects to go down in the fifth round. There's a slight issue, though - the Druid is still unaccounted for.

If the Druid Flanks the Fighter (let's say the Druid put the 18 in Wis, the 16 in Con, 14 Dex, 12 Str, 10 Int, 8 Cha) with, oh, a Club, hide armor, and a heavy wooden shield, then the Druid is attacking at +1 for 1d6+1, AC 17. Flanking, the Dog now hits on a 10 (55%) while the Druid hits on a 12 (45%) for an average damage per round (to the Fighter) of 5.6 damage per round. Fighter now goes down... on the third round - just like the Riding Dog that's flanking him (leaving the Druid).

Alternately, the Druid could simply cast Cure Light Wounds on the Riding Dog a few times.

Or, in other words, yes, the Druid has a decent chance to out fight a Fighter, from level 1 on, provided the Druid can make use of decent strategy while the Fighter has issues doing so.

Nitpick: Why would the fighter have studded leather instead of Scale Mail? Not questioning your point, but that detail bugged me.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-17, 09:21 PM
Nitpick: Why would the fighter have studded leather instead of Scale Mail? Not questioning your point, but that detail bugged me.Because he's spending 50 gp on his Greatsword, and has less than 100 gp in his weapon/armor budget at first level.

Alternately, because he doesn't want the speed hit on Medium Armor (the 10 foot reduction for the Riding Dog gets him down to 30, which is fairly standard and so doesn't hurt).

This is, of course, ignoring that the Riding Dog, trained for War, gets a free trip attack with every successful bite, which seriously puts a crimp in the Fighter's day when it succeeds (even though it's only around a 30% chance of success, as the Fighter is stronger; Prone: -4 AC in melee, -4 attack (unless using a Crossbow), standing up provokes AoO's from both Druid and Riding Dog).

Frosty
2007-11-18, 12:18 PM
Man, what the hell? Keep your hands off Fell Drain? If you keep asking about it, you're not going to totally cheese out the game, you're going to bury it under several metric tonnes of stinking, rich cheddar. With some gouda on top. And a dairy farm on top of it. Seriously.

Use PHB2 Shapeshift variant and you'll still be very strong but not cheesy or powerful. But no matter what, Leadership for Druid and Fleshrakers as companions or shapes are doom. I seriously doubt a Hexblade is optimizable to a level of even your animal companion. Let it go and your life will be happier...

I'm not planning on taking it. I'm just curious actually.

As for the beastmaster, I am not sure about whether or not I actually get a second animal companion if I already have one, or whether it just powers up my existing one by +3.

and if I do get two animal companions, and I keep on leveling druid after that, do I get to advance both of my companions? Again, just curious.

Temp
2007-11-18, 01:02 PM
Honestly, after Beastmaster level 1, there's not a whole lot of good advancing that class is going to do you.

1st level Beastmaster just powers up your current companion if you have one.

And no, once you do get two companions from the class (by taking 4+ levels), Druid won't advance them.