Spell or Item, to give Advantage or force Disadvantage?

[reddir]

Has anyone homebrewed a spell or item which, like the 5e mechanic, either gives Advantage (roll twice, take the better result) or forces Disadvantage (roll twice, take the worse result)?

Limited Wish allows:
Produce ... a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
This seems pretty absolute, like "Take-20" on the positive side, and almost an auto-fail on the negative side.

But it is Spell Level 7. Is there a less powerful version of this for D&D 3.5, something where the rolling still happens?

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EDIT -- added needed "prefix" to the topic

[GeoffWatson]

There's true strike and foresight which give Advantage on one roll or everything.

Blur gives enemies Disadvantage on attack rolls.

[reddir]

There's true strike and foresight which give Advantage on one roll or everything.

Blur gives enemies Disadvantage on attack rolls.

Ah, I am looking for things specific to D&D 3e. What your wrote seems to be from 5e.

Although... can this be a guideline for their use in 3e?

In 3e Blur is also Spell Level 2. Would you suggest that is a proper level for a Disadvantage spell?
And True Strike is a cantrip in 5e, and only Spell Level 1 for a +20 in 3e. Would you suggest cantrip is the proper level for an Advantage spell?

[GeoffWatson]

Oh, I thought you were asking for 5e since you asked about advantage and didn't mention the edition.

How powerful it is depends on what it is giving Advantage or Disadvantage to.

True strike is bad, as it takes an action and only improves one attack, so it's low level.

Something that gave enemies Disadvantage on saving throws would be really powerful, so would be high level.

It seems like you are looking for something that could give adv/disad to anything and everything, which would be really powerful.

[reddir]

Oh, I thought you were asking for 5e since you asked about advantage and didn't mention the edition.
My bad, I am not used to posting away from 3e-focused forums.


Something that gave enemies Disadvantage on saving throws would be really powerful, so would be high level.

It seems like you are looking for something that could give adv/disad to anything and everything, which would be really powerful.

Right now, I am trying to find an easy way to bring this mechanic into 3e through a spell or item - there seems to be a kind of excitement from rolling twice rather than once at decisive moments.

I remember Eberron had Action Points, but I am more accustomed to spells/items.

[Kuulvheysoon]

My bad, I am not used to posting away from 3e-focused forums.



Right now, I am trying to find an easy way to bring this mechanic into 3e through a spell or item - there seems to be a kind of excitement from rolling twice rather than once at decisive moments.

I remember Eberron had Action Points, but I am more accustomed to spells/items.

Eh, Action Points added a smaller dice to the result of your d20, didn't replace it entirely.

There actually exists at least one example of something similar to the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic in 3.5E - Shadow Blade Technique, from the Book of 9 Swords. It specifies that you roll 2d20, and if the lower result would also hit, you deal bonus damage. So it's kinda in the same vein?

[Quixotic1]

There are multiple examples of this in 3rd, 3.5 and Pathfinder 1e. Anything that allows you to re-roll a d20 is effectively the same mechanic, but slightly more streamlined and ever-so-slightly less potent.
The cleric's Luck domain comes to mind as the prime example.

Rolling an extra d20 in these editions has vastly different implications than it does in 5th, though. In 5th, attack vs AC and save vs DC are very similar situations, regardless of level.
In 3.X and Pathfinder, attack versus AC is often stacked heavily to one side, especially after a few levels. Saves vs DC are less so, but still experience this trend. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I would bet that dis/advantage on attack rolls wouldn't be that significant, compared to dis/advantage on saving throws.

Also, I would argue that rolling two dice at those important moments is *less* exciting/tense than rolling one. At least when you're taking the highest, anyway. Then it's just added security and producing less swingy results.

[icefractal]

In PF1, the Witch hex Fortune does exactly this - on one roll each round, roll two dice and take the higher. It's limited to 1/day, but it can be extended by Cackle, even made to last hours with preparation.

[Oerlaf]

Complete Champion (p. 99) contains the Sanctified One prestige class. One of the sanctified abilities is the Luck of Battle: once per day, you can choose to roll twice for any roll normally requiring 1d20 and use the higher of the two results.

[ngilop]

Luck feats and spells are basically advantage "roll twice take the best" Unless advantage has changed since i did the playtest like 9 years ago.

[Breccia]

Has anyone homebrewed a spell or item which, like the 5e mechanic, either gives Advantage (roll twice, take the better result) or forces Disadvantage (roll twice, take the worse result)?

Kind of. I "homebrewed inspiration" back in the early 2000's. Players who had really good ideas or RP moments could take a Luck or Skill card. Skill cards were +2 to a roll, Luck cards were rerolls.

It's not quite what you were going for.

[Shockwave]

1st, you do you, it's your game. I'm saying this because what is below, is basically me tell you not to.

One of the (Many) things that lead me to chose 3.5 over 5e (Despite buying 5e Core for £115) when I decided to drag myself out of the stone age of 2e, Is the mechanic of Advantage/ Disadvantage. On my very first read of this mechanic I went "wait what?" and re-read three times to make sure I hadn't misunderstood how it worked. Without doing the Maths I within 30 seconds worked out that it was at least as good as a 4 point swing (Ie a +-4 to the dice) I have since found out that it's almost a 5 point swing, about a 4.7 or 4.8 in effect.

Now, if you are okay with a roll of 16+ on the dice being now basically a Nat20 because of disadvantage, then as I said at the beginning, it's your game, you do you. But, IMO such an effect is extremely powerful, too powerful even.

[Maat Mons]

The only existing ability that comes to mind is the Choose Destiny spell. It's a 9th-level spell that, for 1 round/level, lets you roll twice and take the better result on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws. It's eligible for the Persistent Spell metamagic feat, which means the right character could make each casting last 24 hours, instead of the normal duration.

[JNAProductions]

1st, you do you, it's your game. I'm saying this because what is below, is basically me tell you not to.

One of the (Many) things that lead me to chose 3.5 over 5e (Despite buying 5e Core for £115) when I decided to drag myself out of the stone age of 2e, Is the mechanic of Advantage/ Disadvantage. On my very first read of this mechanic I went "wait what?" and re-read three times to make sure I hadn't misunderstood how it worked. Without doing the Maths I within 30 seconds worked out that it was at least as good as a 4 point swing (Ie a +-4 to the dice) I have since found out that it's almost a 5 point swing, about a 4.7 or 4.8 in effect.

Now, if you are okay with a roll of 16+ on the dice being now basically a Nat20 because of disadvantage, then as I said at the beginning, it's your game, you do you. But, IMO such an effect is extremely powerful, too powerful even.

As compared to something like a second level spell giving +20, for instance? Seems pretty tame compared to that.

[Shockwave]

As compared to something like a second level spell giving +20, for instance? Seems pretty tame compared to that.

I don't know what spell you are referring to (Still learning 3.5), so without context I can't counter your point, and it might very seem/ be tame compared to that. Doesn't mean it isn't BAF.

[JNAProductions]

I don't know what spell you are referring to (Still learning 3.5), so without context I can't counter your point, and it might very seem/ be tame compared to that. Doesn't mean it isn't BAF.

Guidance Of The Avatar is a second-level Cleric spell, and grants +20 to a skill check.
Glibness is a third-level Bard spell, and grants +30 to Bluff checks made to lie for 10 minutes per level.

Hell, a level one PC can have +13 to a skill at level one in core only, with basic feat selection, while another PC could have -1.

4 (Ranks)+4 (Ability Mod)+3 (Skill Focus)+2(Skill Feat, like Negotiator or similar)

Basically, while I won't tell you you're wrong to prefer 3.5 to 5E... Your given statement seems contrary to what the numbers actually show. There is a VASTLY bigger gulf between a skilled individual (be it in skills, saves, attacks, whatever) in 3.5 than there is in 5E. I'm pretty sure that, by level two, you can make two PCs where one can always succeed on a skill check (barring a houserule that nat 1s always fail) and a second would always fail (barring houserules, again).

PC Schmuck has an 8 in the relevant stat, and no bonuses outside that. -1 modifier.

PC Pro has a 20 in the relevant stat, for +5. We'll say this is Charisma, and the skill is Diplomacy. They have Skill Focus, for +3. The appropriate skill feat, Negotiator, for +2. Five ranks each in Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), and Sense Motive, for +2 each from Synergy. Which is, admittedly, only 17 points better-not quite enough. But in three more levels, their bonus from ranks is now +8, taking them to +19. A DC 20 Diplomacy check is now something the Pro cannot fail, and the Schmuck can never succeed on.

Notably, this is going purely off the SRD. Given other sources, magic items, or temporary bonuses, it'd be easy as heck to pump up to +19 at level 2.

[Kuulvheysoon]

In a similar vein, we have true strike, a 1st level spell which gives a frankly absurd +20 to hit on an attack and wraithstrike, which is even worse, basically letting you ignore AC completely by turning all of your melee attacks into melee touch attacks. Second level spell.

Both of these have absurdly short durations, yes, but the second one especially is super vulnerable to cheese. 3.5e is a game about numbers; the more the better. Its what happens when opponents can have ACs that hit the mid-40s if not higher.