The Angriest Possible

[Dragonsworn]

Hello everyone

So after a long hiatus I am once again delving in D&D. I was checking some random ideas when I came upon a thread about Barbarian (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm)/Berserk (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/berserk/index.html)/Frenzied Berserker (https://dndtools.net/classes/frenzied-berserker/) and another one (or it could be the same) dicussing Primeval (https://dndtools.net/classes/primeval/). While I was aware of all those classes and I had even tried to combine them in the past, I came up with an interesting idea

To combine all Rage-like abilities in one character

Which has probably been attempted before, but I found no extensive references, so here we go

As I was googling for all relative abilities it quickly became apparent that to fit them all in would take a character well into the epic levels , so I instead changed it to a gestalt build to justify the existence of so many levels in one build.

For the sake of argument, let's don't get too hung up on properly qualifying :smallbiggrin: for all the PrCs you are about to see (or assume your early entry cheese of choice), I am just trying to fit everything properly into 20 (gestalt :smallwink:) levels

Barbarian 1/Primeval (https://dndtools.net/classes/primeval/) 9/Frenzied Berserker (https://dndtools.net/classes/frenzied-berserker/) 10//Sohei (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/sohei/index.html) 1/Bear Warrior (https://dndtools.net/classes/bear-warrior/) 10/Berserk (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/berserk/index.html) 1/Wildrunner (https://dndtools.net/classes/wildrunner/) 2/Fist of the Forest (https://dndtools.net/classes/fist-of-the-forest/) 1/(Swordsage (http://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseTob/swordsage.html) or Warblade (https://dndtools.net/classes/warblade/)) 1/Bloodclaw Master (https://dndtools.net/classes/bloodclaw-master/) 1/(hopefully) Were (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm)-Badger (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/badger.htm) (1 RHD + 2 or 3 LA)/(hope never dies) Weretouched Master (https://dndtools.net/classes/weretouched-master/) (Tiger if 1 level or Wolverine if 3)/X +Y

Now, the issues here and my reasons for posting (apart for obviously being completely unable to meet prerequisites)

For starters, race: Wildrunner demands Elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm) or Half-elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm), but I would [I]looooove it if I could go Shifter (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/races/racesEberron.html) for an extra Rage-like ability

Also, let's talk about the inpiration behind this idea, namely Rage. There are 4 Rage variants [five, if you count the Berserker something (Strength?) form PH II, but that one is not under player control - no daily uses, sure, but doesn't seem to go with the other slew of Rage abilities here so...] that I am aware of: the standard one that Barbarians (and some others) get, Whirling Frenzy (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm) that everyone cheeses chooses, Ferocity (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) which is very interesting and the Goliath substitution ability Mountain Rage (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCore/barbarian.html). While I would have liked to include each and everyone of them, it is sadly not possible. WF has a clause precluding it from being used with any other rage-like ability, which seems rather stupid but if it is not hand-waived then cannot be used with the entirety of this build! Mountain Rage requires Goliath, and while Stoneblessed (https://dndtools.net/classes/stoneblessed/) can take care of that, it will probably eat too many levels - plus Ferocity is also Barbarian-only (as opposed to regular Rage), so much like WF is unusable. That leaves us with normal Rage and Ferocity, so I am thinking......Ferocity Barbarian and make that last level Druidic Avenger (https://dndtools.net/classes/druidic-avenger/)? Does that seem alright? Can anyone come up with a way of adding in the rest? one of our Rage abilities (otherwise this can get completely ridiculous) we should designate for it one of the standard or racial Rages (see below) so that we can retain the higher (+4 instead of +2) bonus to Dexterity by Ferocity

In the same venue, Were-Badger. A normal Badger has 1 HD, so a Were-Badger would have one RHD and +2 LA if afflicted or +3 LA if natural, correct? And I believe LA can be bought off, but RHDs stick for ever (even with Savage Progressions), so am I right to assume that (if RHDs and LAs are allowed to be put on one half of a gestalt) this could be worked to consume one level on one side of a build? In which case, Weretouched Master (Wolverine) adds another Rage-like ability [note that a badger has a -2 Strength, which for a lycanthrope would carry on in animal or hybrid form BUT while raging (which is not under character control and only happens after you take damage-no daily cap though :smallamused:) would gain a +4 STR through Rage, netting a +2 bonus which Weretouched Master can increase by an additional +2]

Need Swordsage or Warblade (or 3 feats, but lets try and pretend that this build is somewhat playable :smallwink:) for Bloodclaw master (taken at the latest possible to allow highest level manuevers, obviously) - which do you think would work best for such a character?

As a side note, we can also use some templates. Going for only +0 LA ones, the only one I could find (which is oftencase mentioned in these forums) and gives Rage is Proto-creature from Bestiary of Krynn page 80. It might not be a WotC product per se, but in general Dragonlance options tend to be rather balanced to a point where they are sometimes more difficult to use (plus I am unfathomably in love with that setting, so I am hardly irked by anything originating from there)

Finally, can you think of anything else to put on top of all of these? Especially more Rage abilities?



Edit: Added links

Edit 2: And I just realised, lycanthrope doesn't work! As per the SRD:

A lycanthrope’s hybrid form does not gain any special attacks of the base animal. A lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form.
A badger's Rage is listed under "special attacks", which means only the animal and not the hybrid form can access it. This is bad because initially, hybrid form was going to be used to gain back the use of human-like arms that Primeval might have lost. And at any rate, this forces natural attacks.

Anybody knows how to solve this? Or is it back to the drawing board?

[Dragonsworn]

Post reserved

[Dragonsworn]

Post reserved #2

[mattie_p]

Celebrant of Sharess (Player's Guide to Faerun) has a rage like ability too.

List of stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553) to help you.

Rage
Barbarian
Half-Orc Paragon 2, ecl 2, Unearthed Arcana
Beserker - faerun...
Geomancer 7 (stage 4 drift), ecl 13, Complete Divine
Eye of Gruumsh 1, ecl 7, Complete Warrior
lyncanthropy with badger or wolverine
Weretouched Master 3 (Wolverine), ecl 8, Eberron Campaign Setting, see text
Kinslayer 1, 5, 9/10, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark


Similar to Rage
Bear Warrior, ecl 8, Complete Warrior, shift into a bear
Frenzied Berserker, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - gains Frenzy, stacks on top of rage, see text
Rage Mage, ecl 6, Complete Warrior - gains spell rage, works in conjunction with rage, Tireless Rage at level 9, see text
Berserk 1, ecl 6, Deities and Demigods - called "Battle Fury", stronger than standard rage, see text
Corrupt Avenger 1, ecl 7, Heroes of Horror, "sworn foe" sort of a cross between rage and Favored enemy, see text
Barbarian 1, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement, "Ferocity", bonus to Str and Dex, see text
Barbarian 1, class variant, PHB2, see text
Shifter, race, Eberron Campaign Setting or Monster Manual 3, see text
Bloodclaw Master 1, 3, 5/5, ecl 7, Tome of Battle, "shifting" bonus to Str and gain claws, see text
Wildrunner 1, ecl 6, Races of the Wild, "Primal Scream"
Fist of the Forest 1, 3/3, ecl 5, Complete Champion, "Feral Trance" bonus to dex
Outcast Champion 3, ecl 8, Races of Destiny, "desperate fury", affects allies at level 5


stacks for rage
Eye of Gruumsh, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - stacks for number of uses
Champion of Gwynharwyf, ecl 7, Book of Exalted Deeds, free intimidate against anyone within 30' at level 4
Geomancer 7 (stage 4 drift), ecl 13, Complete Divine
Runescarred Berserker, ecl 8, FR: Unapproachable East - not quite stack, but gives extra rage, also gain Greater Rage at level 8 (ecl 15)
Black Blood cultist, ecl 6, FR: Champions of Ruin - stacks for everything
Rage Mage, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, not stack but grants addition uses of normal rage, plus Tireless Rage at level 9
Battlerager 1, 3, 5/5, ecl 6, Races of Faerun


Produces rage/frenzy/boost/etc. in allies
Warchief 1, ecl 4, Miniatures Handbook
Orc Warlord 5, ecl 11, Races of Faerun
Frenzied Berzerker 6, ecl 12, Complete Warrior
Virtuoso 7, ecl 14, Complete Adventurer
Warrior Skald 10, ecl 16, Races of Faerun
Dawncaller 10, ecl 16, Races of Stone


Special Mention
Extend Rage, feat, Complete Warrior, rage lasts +5 rounds
Extra Rage, feat, Complete Warrior, extra 2 rages
Intimidating Rage, feat, Complete Warrior
Instantaneous Rage, feat, Complete Warrior
Righteous Wrath, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, foes are shaken, see text



Let me know if I need to delete this, sorry.

[Dragonsworn]

Celebrant of Sharess (Player's Guide to Faerun) has a rage like ability too.

List of stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553) to help you.

Rage
Barbarian
Half-Orc Paragon 2, ecl 2, Unearthed Arcana
Beserker - faerun...
Geomancer 7 (stage 4 drift), ecl 13, Complete Divine
Eye of Gruumsh 1, ecl 7, Complete Warrior
lyncanthropy with badger or wolverine
Weretouched Master 3 (Wolverine), ecl 8, Eberron Campaign Setting, see text
Kinslayer 1, 5, 9/10, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark


Similar to Rage
Bear Warrior, ecl 8, Complete Warrior, shift into a bear
Frenzied Berserker, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - gains Frenzy, stacks on top of rage, see text
Rage Mage, ecl 6, Complete Warrior - gains spell rage, works in conjunction with rage, Tireless Rage at level 9, see text
Berserk 1, ecl 6, Deities and Demigods - called "Battle Fury", stronger than standard rage, see text
Corrupt Avenger 1, ecl 7, Heroes of Horror, "sworn foe" sort of a cross between rage and Favored enemy, see text
Barbarian 1, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement, "Ferocity", bonus to Str and Dex, see text
Barbarian 1, class variant, PHB2, see text
Shifter, race, Eberron Campaign Setting or Monster Manual 3, see text
Bloodclaw Master 1, 3, 5/5, ecl 7, Tome of Battle, "shifting" bonus to Str and gain claws, see text
Wildrunner 1, ecl 6, Races of the Wild, "Primal Scream"
Fist of the Forest 1, 3/3, ecl 5, Complete Champion, "Feral Trance" bonus to dex
Outcast Champion 3, ecl 8, Races of Destiny, "desperate fury", affects allies at level 5


stacks for rage
Eye of Gruumsh, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - stacks for number of uses
Champion of Gwynharwyf, ecl 7, Book of Exalted Deeds, free intimidate against anyone within 30' at level 4
Geomancer 7 (stage 4 drift), ecl 13, Complete Divine
Runescarred Berserker, ecl 8, FR: Unapproachable East - not quite stack, but gives extra rage, also gain Greater Rage at level 8 (ecl 15)
Black Blood cultist, ecl 6, FR: Champions of Ruin - stacks for everything
Rage Mage, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, not stack but grants addition uses of normal rage, plus Tireless Rage at level 9
Battlerager 1, 3, 5/5, ecl 6, Races of Faerun


Produces rage/frenzy/boost/etc. in allies
Warchief 1, ecl 4, Miniatures Handbook
Orc Warlord 5, ecl 11, Races of Faerun
Frenzied Berzerker 6, ecl 12, Complete Warrior
Virtuoso 7, ecl 14, Complete Adventurer
Warrior Skald 10, ecl 16, Races of Faerun
Dawncaller 10, ecl 16, Races of Stone


Special Mention
Extend Rage, feat, Complete Warrior, rage lasts +5 rounds
Extra Rage, feat, Complete Warrior, extra 2 rages
Intimidating Rage, feat, Complete Warrior
Instantaneous Rage, feat, Complete Warrior
Righteous Wrath, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, foes are shaken, see text



Let me know if I need to delete this, sorry.

Wow, fast reply. Much Appreciated

You list a lot of stuff. Some I have already included. Others I will loook into

I opted not to use a wolverine but a badger due to lower RHD

Why would you need to delete it? :smallconfused:

[mattie_p]

I posted not knowing you were reserving posts. If you needed more I would have interrupted the flow of your post.

[Dragonsworn]

I posted not knowing you were reserving posts. If you needed more I would have interrupted the flow of your post.

Nah, thanks for the consideration but I reserved 2 just in case,doubt I will need them both

'tis okay

[ShurikVch]

Some more:

Firestorm Berserker PrC (Dragon #314)

Primal Rager PrC (Dragon #295)

Bloodrager template (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised) got Rage (on injury); LA +2

Carcass Eater animal (Libris Mortis): Blood Frenzy - on damaging an enemy; 1 HD

Gutworm symbiont (Fiend Folio)

Sword, Berserking (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#swordBerserking)

Involuntary Rage feat (Savage Species)

White Dragon Lineage feat (Dragon Magic)

Tainted Fury [tainted] feat (Heroes of Horror)

Short Temper flaw (Dragon #328)

Spells:
Rage
Burning Rage
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I made a character like this a while back. Not gestalt, and didn't manage to cram as many different forms of rage in, but thought I'd share:


I present to you, one of the angriest characters in all of D&D.

Asura, Nature's Wrath
Chaotic Shifter (longtooth) Were-Wolverine
Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Wolverine 4HD/ Warshaper 3/ Weretouched Master (wolverine) 4/ Frenzied Berserker 5/ Berserk 1

Capable of raging/frenzying/battle-furying 5 times simultaneously. He can even end some of these voluntarily. Throw in Morphic Body - which arguably applies twice if you are both in wolverine form and shifting - and your total bonus to strength (before items or even initial stats) is +42 or +46.

If using the LA thread assigned LA of +1, you've got more damage resistance and an extra level to play with. Another level of Warshaper nets you fast healing 2. The Feral Creature template gives some lovely stat boosts, though it appears the special attacks it grants only apply in humanoid or hybrid form, while the wolverine rage only applies in wolverine form. Barbarian 2 gives some nice options (my favorite is usually Wolf Totem for Improved Trip into Knock-Down, but this build is probably too feat-starved without flaws). And of course many more.

Speaking of feats:
1. Longtooth Elite (with flaws Improved Unarmed Strike and Extra Rages)
2. Track (B)
3. Power Attack
6. Cleave
9. Intimidating Rage
10. Shifter Savagery (B)
12. Destructive Rage, Ragewild Fighting (B)
13. Diehard (B)
15. Improved Unarmed Strike
18. Leap Attack

Edit: you probably don't actually need Improved Unarmed Strike, since them taking that attack of opportunity just guarantees two of your rages will proc if they haven't already. That in mind, bumping Leap Attack to level 15 and taking Shifter Multiattack or Extra Rages at 18 is probably the better call, for effectively +3 to all natural weapons and shifting +1/day or 2 extra rages respectively.

[Rebel7284]

Barbarian 1/Illithid Savant 10 gets you 4 rages in 11 levels. Becoming the correct race either costs 15ECL or cheese.

edit: normally I don't recommend the ridiculousness that's Illithid Savant, but in this case, you are literally interested in cherry picking class features which the class does super well.

[Dragonsworn]

Celebrant of Sharess (Player's Guide to Faerun) has a rage like ability too.

List of stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553) to help you.

Rage
Barbarian
Half-Orc Paragon 2, ecl 2, Unearthed Arcana
Beserker - faerun...
Geomancer 7 (stage 4 drift), ecl 13, Complete Divine
Eye of Gruumsh 1, ecl 7, Complete Warrior
lyncanthropy with badger or wolverine
Weretouched Master 3 (Wolverine), ecl 8, Eberron Campaign Setting, see text
Kinslayer 1, 5, 9/10, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark


Similar to Rage
Bear Warrior, ecl 8, Complete Warrior, shift into a bear
Frenzied Berserker, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - gains Frenzy, stacks on top of rage, see text
Rage Mage, ecl 6, Complete Warrior - gains spell rage, works in conjunction with rage, Tireless Rage at level 9, see text
Berserk 1, ecl 6, Deities and Demigods - called "Battle Fury", stronger than standard rage, see text
Corrupt Avenger 1, ecl 7, Heroes of Horror, "sworn foe" sort of a cross between rage and Favored enemy, see text
Barbarian 1, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement, "Ferocity", bonus to Str and Dex, see text
Barbarian 1, class variant, PHB2, see text
Shifter, race, Eberron Campaign Setting or Monster Manual 3, see text
Bloodclaw Master 1, 3, 5/5, ecl 7, Tome of Battle, "shifting" bonus to Str and gain claws, see text
Wildrunner 1, ecl 6, Races of the Wild, "Primal Scream"
Fist of the Forest 1, 3/3, ecl 5, Complete Champion, "Feral Trance" bonus to dex
Outcast Champion 3, ecl 8, Races of Destiny, "desperate fury", affects allies at level 5


stacks for rage
Eye of Gruumsh, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - stacks for number of uses
Champion of Gwynharwyf, ecl 7, Book of Exalted Deeds, free intimidate against anyone within 30' at level 4
Geomancer 7 (stage 4 drift), ecl 13, Complete Divine
Runescarred Berserker, ecl 8, FR: Unapproachable East - not quite stack, but gives extra rage, also gain Greater Rage at level 8 (ecl 15)
Black Blood cultist, ecl 6, FR: Champions of Ruin - stacks for everything
Rage Mage, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, not stack but grants addition uses of normal rage, plus Tireless Rage at level 9
Battlerager 1, 3, 5/5, ecl 6, Races of Faerun


Produces rage/frenzy/boost/etc. in allies
Warchief 1, ecl 4, Miniatures Handbook
Orc Warlord 5, ecl 11, Races of Faerun
Frenzied Berzerker 6, ecl 12, Complete Warrior
Virtuoso 7, ecl 14, Complete Adventurer
Warrior Skald 10, ecl 16, Races of Faerun
Dawncaller 10, ecl 16, Races of Stone


Special Mention
Extend Rage, feat, Complete Warrior, rage lasts +5 rounds
Extra Rage, feat, Complete Warrior, extra 2 rages
Intimidating Rage, feat, Complete Warrior
Instantaneous Rage, feat, Complete Warrior
Righteous Wrath, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, foes are shaken, see text



Let me know if I need to delete this, sorry.

So upon closer inspection on the ones I hadn't included from here, these only stack with rage and don't add an additional ability. Could be made to work if the build started with other base classes first (like Sohei) and took the barbarian level after PrCs, but a)this seems too convoluted and b)some PrCs require rage (which in theory could be satisfied with racial rages, but it seems even more irky.......)

The ones that did offer new abilities are the Celebrant of Sharess (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/celebrant-of-sharess/index.html), Outcast Champion (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/outcast-champion/index.html) and Corrupt Avenger (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/corrupt-avenger/index.html). Selebrant is solid, have to find a way to add it to the list! The others' abilities are too situational or restricted - I am looking for more all around Rage

Still have not gone through the list


Some more:

Firestorm Berserker PrC (Dragon #314)

Primal Rager PrC (Dragon #295)

Short Temper flaw (Dragon #328)

I try to avoid Dragon magazine, though I suppose the option does exist


Bloodrager template (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised) got Rage (on injury); LA +2


Good find, but I am trying to avoid LAs....if however there ends up being some wiggling room in the build, that is a strong candidate


Carcass Eater animal (Libris Mortis): Blood Frenzy - on damaging an enemy; 1 HD


I will check it out, but if you look at my OP I have allready included badger......not sure I can have 2 animals in there!


Gutworm symbiont (Fiend Folio)


Hmmmm:smallconfused:.....this sounds...weird. Will look into it


Sword, Berserking (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#swordBerserking)
]

And it would seem like I just found the first piece of equipment for this guy :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: AWESOME :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin: Many thanks


Involuntary Rage feat (Savage Species)


That is good -has to be included.......I dread the moment I will have to sit down and figure out the feats this guy is supposed to have :smalleek:


White Dragon Lineage feat (Dragon Magic)


Trying to avoid spells for this, but if for some reason they are included I am adding this


Spells:
Rage
Burning Rage
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage

Same as above


Tainted Fury [tainted] feat (Heroes of Horror)


Not really a Rage ability

[Dragonsworn]

I made a character like this a while back. Not gestalt, and didn't manage to cram as many different forms of rage in, but thought I'd share:


Seems nice

[Dragonsworn]

Barbarian 1/Illithid Savant 10 gets you 4 rages in 11 levels. Becoming the correct race either costs 15ECL or cheese.

edit: normally I don't recommend the ridiculousness that's Illithid Savant, but in this case, you are literally interested in cherry picking class features which the class does super well.

True, but it still seems too much :smalltongue:


Becoming the correct race either costs 15ECL or cheese.

Care to elaborate?

[Dragonsworn]

In addition, does anyone have a clear ruling on whether the were-badger thing actually works?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Barbarian 1/Illithid Savant 10 gets you 4 rages in 11 levels. Becoming the correct race either costs 15ECL or cheese.

edit: normally I don't recommend the ridiculousness that's Illithid Savant, but in this case, you are literally interested in cherry picking class features which the class does super well.

Sir, it appears you have mentioned the Illithid Savant class in a forum. This is a federal offense liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory administrative penalties. Your memory shall now be erased in order to avoid repeating such an issue. Please comply.

[Rebel7284]

Sir, it appears you have mentioned the Illithid Savant class in a forum. This is a federal offense liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory administrative penalties. Your memory shall now be erased in order to avoid repeating such an issue. Please comply.

That sounds like an Illithid Savant trying to trick me into letting them eat my brain. I don't think so, good sir!


Care to elaborate?

Sure: Polymorph Any Object can be made permanent with a 9+ Duration factor and spellcasting services section means there is a specific market rate for getting someone else to cast it on you.

Playing an Elan with 19 Int qualifies you automatically (edit: 11 points actually, so you can drop the Int part), although you can also use low level spells like Aberrate and Fox's Cunning to massage any base race into an appropriate target.

Note that this is Permanent and not instantaneous, so it CAN be dispelled* and thus probably doesn't change your LA, but you also are an Illithid with almost all Illithid abilities and can likely take Illithid Savant if you level with PAO still in effect.

*There are steps you can take to make it exceedingly difficult to dispel.

[Dragonsworn]

Sure: Polymorph Any Object can be made permanent with a 9+ Duration factor and spellcasting services section means there is a specific market rate for getting someone else to cast it on you.

Playing an Elan with 19 Int qualifies you automatically (edit: 11 points actually, so you can drop the Int part), although you can also use low level spells like Aberrate and Fox's Cunning to massage any base race into an appropriate target.

Note that this is Permanent and not instantaneous, so it CAN be dispelled* and thus probably doesn't change your LA, but you also are an Illithid with almost all Illithid abilities and can likely take Illithid Savant if you level with PAO still in effect.

*There are steps you can take to make it exceedingly difficult to dispel.

oh, that's what you meant.....I didn't realise you were talking about the correct race for the Illithid Savant and thought you meant there was a way to be a shifter (as I want) and also qualify as an elf for Wildrunner (or possibly other races for similar problems)

I have seen this trick in these forums before, but I am still trying to avoid such cheese, and your suggestions keep getting cheesier with every post :smalltongue:

[Dragonsworn]

If anyone is still interested, I have concluded through some more online searching that the problem I mentioned with animal special attacks being inaccessible in hybrid form (I even found references on this forum) actually stands

I also found the solution

Black Blood Hunter (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/black-blood-hunter/index.html) gives you at level 3 the very ability needed - to use animal special attacks in hybrid form (as if this build had so much level room already available)

I also came up with Moon Guardian (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/moonguardian.shtml) for anyone with a similar problem running into alignment issues (spells are slowly becomming more and more prevalent in this thread.......)

[Dragonsworn]

Lastly, I found a thred (sadly didn't keep a link and now I can't find it again) that claimed that if the animal form has a penalty at a (physical) ability score it doesn't carry over when changing to its hybrid form - only positive ones do

Does anyone know if this is true or false?

[loky1109]

Reckless Rage feat. RoS.

[Rebel7284]

oh, that's what you meant.....I didn't realise you were talking about the correct race for the Illithid Savant and thought you meant there was a way to be a shifter (as I want) and also qualify as an elf for Wildrunner (or possibly other races for similar problems)

I have seen this trick in these forums before, but I am still trying to avoid such cheese, and your suggestions keep getting cheesier with every post :smalltongue:

I mean, you explicitly asked me to elaborate on what I meant by "cheese", so no surprise that it got cheesier :smallwink:


As far as counting as multiple races, changelings have the racial emulation feat, although what happens to prestige classes once you no longer qualify is pretty contentious on these forums.

[vasilidor]

How angry can the character get? All the Anger.
so how much can stack is what I am now wondering, don't have the books or articles for half of these. If it all stacks, just wow.

[ShurikVch]

Bands of Blood Rage (Magic Item Compendium) allow to enter a Blood Rage (for 5 rounds, 3/day)

Other magical items:

Weapon Special Abilities:
Berserker (Magic Item Compendium) +1d8 damage while raging; +1
Fury (Heroes of Battle) +1d6 damage while raging; +1
Furious (Oriental Adventures) while raging, you got +6 Str, +6 Con, and +3 on Will saves; if you have Greater Rage - then +8 Str, +8 Con, and +4 on Will saves; +2

Bear Helm (Magic Item Compendium) while raging, 1/day, you can negate 50% of damage from Sneak Attack or Critical Hit; 1500 gp
Cloak of Predatory Vigor (Magic Item Compendium) 2/day, as a swift action, allow to heal number of hp = your HD; not just possible to use in Rage, but actually required Rage to work; 1400 gp


Feats:
Blazing Berserker (Sandstorm) gain Fire subtype while raging
Channeled Rage (Races of Destiny) - spend your daily use of Rage, add your Str bonus to your Will save; required Half-orc
Cobalt Rage (Magic of Incarnum) - invest essentia to the feat, and gain Insight bonus on damage rolls and Will saves equal to essentia invested; lasts 24 hours (but bonuses active only while raging)
Destructive Rage (Complete Warrior) while raging, +8 on Str check to break down doors or break inanimate, immobile objects
Dragon Rage (Eberron Campaign Setting) while raging, +2 natural AC, and +10 to energy resistance of your Dragon Totem
Dragonmark Rage (Dragonmarked) while raging, get fast healing - depends on the strength of your dragonmark (up to 3)
Ettercap Berserker (Unapproachable East) +2 on saves versus poison; while raging, +6 Con - or +8 (if Greater Rage)
Frantic Rage (Faiths of Eberron) at the start of your Rage, can choose to improve your Dex instead of your Str; required access to the Madness domain
Ice Troll Berserker (Unapproachable East) while raging, +2 natural AC - or +4 (if Greater Rage)
Instantaneous Rage (Complete Warrior) - Rage as a free action, even if you're flat-footed, even if it's not your turn
Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior) while raging, can demoralize a single foe within 30' as a free action
Mad Foam Rager (Player's Handbook II) while raging, you can chose to delay effect of a single attack, spell, or ability until the end of your next turn (1/Rage)
Rampaging Bull Rush (Races of Stone) while raging, if you take -4 penalty on a bull rush check, you can automatically trip an enemy which you successfully bull rushed; required Large+ size or Powerful Build

[Dragonsworn]

Hey everyone, sorry for the long interval, was on vacation


I mean, you explicitly asked me to elaborate on what I meant by "cheese", so no surprise that it got cheesier :smallwink:

True, true.......can't blaim you on that one :smalltongue:


As far as counting as multiple races, changelings have the racial emulation feat, although what happens to prestige classes once you no longer qualify is pretty contentious on these forums.

I have considered this, and while it may solve the problem of qualification (and that's a big "may") the main problem with race is I want this build to be a Shifter for their racial traits...which a Changeling (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/races/racesEberron.html) cannot copy even with the Racial Emulation (https://dndtools.net/feats/races-of-eberron--10/racial-emulation--2348/) feat


How angry can the character get? All the Anger.
so how much can stack is what I am now wondering, don't have the books or articles for half of these. If it all stacks, just wow.

It is a pain to fit everything into a build (and I have been carefully avoiding the sore subject of meeting qualifications for everything :smallredface:) but I assure you, every ability chosen stacks with all the others


Bands of Blood Rage (Magic Item Compendium) allow to enter a Blood Rage (for 5 rounds, 3/day)

Other magical items:

Weapon Special Abilities:
Berserker (Magic Item Compendium) +1d8 damage while raging; +1
Fury (Heroes of Battle) +1d6 damage while raging; +1
Furious (Oriental Adventures) while raging, you got +6 Str, +6 Con, and +3 on Will saves; if you have Greater Rage - then +8 Str, +8 Con, and +4 on Will saves; +2

Bear Helm (Magic Item Compendium) while raging, 1/day, you can negate 50% of damage from Sneak Attack or Critical Hit; 1500 gp
Cloak of Predatory Vigor (Magic Item Compendium) 2/day, as a swift action, allow to heal number of hp = your HD; not just possible to use in Rage, but actually required Rage to work; 1400 gp


Feats:
Blazing Berserker (Sandstorm) gain Fire subtype while raging
Channeled Rage (Races of Destiny) - spend your daily use of Rage, add your Str bonus to your Will save; required Half-orc
Cobalt Rage (Magic of Incarnum) - invest essentia to the feat, and gain Insight bonus on damage rolls and Will saves equal to essentia invested; lasts 24 hours (but bonuses active only while raging)
Destructive Rage (Complete Warrior) while raging, +8 on Str check to break down doors or break inanimate, immobile objects
Dragon Rage (Eberron Campaign Setting) while raging, +2 natural AC, and +10 to energy resistance of your Dragon Totem
Dragonmark Rage (Dragonmarked) while raging, get fast healing - depends on the strength of your dragonmark (up to 3)
Ettercap Berserker (Unapproachable East) +2 on saves versus poison; while raging, +6 Con - or +8 (if Greater Rage)
Frantic Rage (Faiths of Eberron) at the start of your Rage, can choose to improve your Dex instead of your Str; required access to the Madness domain
Ice Troll Berserker (Unapproachable East) while raging, +2 natural AC - or +4 (if Greater Rage)
Instantaneous Rage (Complete Warrior) - Rage as a free action, even if you're flat-footed, even if it's not your turn
Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior) while raging, can demoralize a single foe within 30' as a free action
Mad Foam Rager (Player's Handbook II) while raging, you can chose to delay effect of a single attack, spell, or ability until the end of your next turn (1/Rage)
Rampaging Bull Rush (Races of Stone) while raging, if you take -4 penalty on a bull rush check, you can automatically trip an enemy which you successfully bull rushed; required Large+ size or Powerful Build

Hmmm...some interesting choices here. Some of the feats are really good (though I doubt I will have any more of these left if I try to actually qualify for all the things I want to take), others I don't much like, but I am very interested in some of the items, especially the weapon enhancements which seem like they would go really well with a Berserking Sword (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#swordBerserking) (thanks ShurikVch)

[Dragonsworn]

ShurikVch, you are turning out to be even more helpful

While looking at your suggestions, I found even more stuff

The Fury (https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/weapon/Fury) weapon enchantement, which along with Furious (https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/weapon/Furious) could prove to be confusing, but is so fiting

Also, even more prestiges :smalltongue::smallbiggrin: Singh Rager (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/singh-rager/index.html), which gives another coveted Rage ability, Hida Defender (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/hida-defender/index.html), who again stacks with Rage but does not give it on its own (but as mentioned can be worked around :smallwink:) and Moto Avenger (https://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/moto-avenger/index.html) who sadly not only doesn't stack with Rage but isn't even gained as a feature if you already have it but boosts it when against Shadowlands creatures - too narrow of a situation, but good to know (and also might still be work around-able)

[Dragonsworn]

This looks more and more like it is about to go tri-stalt (now if I could fix that stupid race problem :smallfurious:)

[liquidformat]

So some random things: Anthropomorphic Badger (should calculate this one yourself most things are wrong on the table for this guy) and Wolverine also get rage though you couldn't be a shifter then.

If you are adding in Druid avenger you should also do the other UA druid variant that trades armor proficiency and wild shape.

There is also a raging monk variant which trades flurry for rage, I think that might be a better fit for your build but it might be Dragon Mag which you said is a no go. The second plus with dipping monk is for 2 level dip you can get 2 bonus feats to help you qualify for everything...

Arms and Equipment Guide also has some barbarian necklaces that give you extra rage but afb so can't give you specifics on them.

a dip in Ruathar RotW will also allow you to take Wildrunner

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well, it takes yet another PrC, but Changeling w/ Racial Emulation into Bloodclaw Master 1 now has Shifting and counts as a Razorclaw Shifter.

[ShurikVch]

This looks more and more like it is about to go tri-stalt (now if I could fix that stupid race problem :smallfurious:)
What's the "race problem"?
I know you want Shifter, but - what's the problem?



Arms and Equipment Guide also has some barbarian necklaces that give you extra rage but afb so can't give you specifics on them.
Necklace of the Marauding Beast - all three variants (Raging Bear, Frenzied Shark, and Rampaging Boar) give +1 round for duration of Rage
I don't mentioned them because they're kinda expensive - from 11840 to 12440 gp
If somebody thinks their Rage don't lasts enough, there are some cheaper options:
Mask of Blood (Magic Item Compendium) costs 3300 gp, gives +1 round for duration of Rage, and ranged (30') touch attack for 4d6 damage 2/day
Brash weapon special ability (Magic Item Compendium) gives +3 rounds for duration of Rage, immunity to fear; and just +1 bonus



So some random things: Anthropomorphic Badger (should calculate this one yourself most things are wrong on the table for this guy) and Wolverine also get rage though you couldn't be a shifter then.
Also, Symbiotic and Tauric templates should give Rage too (and keep the race).
Problems: Symbiotic Creature required specific sizes (can you make your Shifter Large?), and Tauric Creature - with Dire Wolverine (or Frenzy Dog (https://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a)) is +5 racial HD (on top of LA +3). Speaking of Frenzy Dog - may be not so bad, considering 10/day Rage with +4 on saves vs enchantment spells and effects...


Past Life template (Dungeon Master's Guide II) can allow to use Greater Rage 1/day (as 11th-level Barbarian). I don't mentioned it earlier because LA +5 is rather high

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Also, Symbiotic and Tauric templates should give Rage too (and keep the race).
Problems: Symbiotic Creature required specific sizes (can you make your Shifter Large?)

Better off using the Shifter (or Changeling) as the guest and a Dire Wolverine with enlarge animal cast on it as the host. This will also let you cram a lot more levels in with some stinky, stinky cheese (the guest's ECL doesn't contribute at all to the ECL of the Symbiotic Creature by RAW, so you could bolt a full 20 gestalt levels onto a 5RHD Dire Wolverine for the price of +1 LA, giving you a final ECL of 6).

If you're going the Changeling route, you would also need to take Human Heritage as your first-level feat in order to continue being able to change into humanoids after the template is applied.

[Dragonsworn]

Again, sorry for long absence, RL keeps getting in the way :smalltongue::smallwink:


So some random things: Anthropomorphic Badger (should calculate this one yourself most things are wrong on the table for this guy) and Wolverine also get rage though you couldn't be a shifter then.


That is why I made this build a lycanthrope - gets the benefits of actual race (Shifter) with animal abilities [Rage from badger (chosen for less RHD) or wolverine] though as mentioned it requires three levels of Black Blood Hunter to work


If you are adding in Druid avenger you should also do the other UA druid variant that trades armor proficiency and wild shape.

That was added only to get another Rage ability, but would you happen to remember what it gives so that I may see if it would fit the build?


There is also a raging monk variant which trades flurry for rage, I think that might be a better fit for your build but it might be Dragon Mag which you said is a no go. The second plus with dipping monk is for 2 level dip you can get 2 bonus feats to help you qualify for everything...

I considered it because it would also give Flurry of Blows which would help with an extra attack, but sadly it is indeed Dragon Magazine material :smallfrown: As for the feats, as you can see in the OP the build is pretty starved for levels (I even considered going tristalt to cram everything in!!!!!) otherwise the same could be achieved with Fighter (or a number of other dips)


a dip in Ruathar RotW will also allow you to take Wildrunner

Ummmm.......I just checked that (as it would be a tremendous help) and it doesn't say so anywhere! Are you sure you have seen somewhere that it can indeed work like that or was it just a houserule in a game?


Well, it takes yet another PrC, but Changeling w/ Racial Emulation into Bloodclaw Master 1 now has Shifting and counts as a Razorclaw Shifter.

Correct me if I am wrong, but while that would indeed allow entry to (potentially) both Weretouched Master and Wildrunner it does not allow the use of racial abilities, eg the Shifter's Shifting ability [do note that a Shifter Bloodclaw Master actually has two Shifting abilities, one from race and one as a class feature (same name, same fluff, mechanically almost identical, technically two separate abilities and so can stack with each other!)]


What's the "race problem"?
I know you want Shifter, but - what's the problem?

The problem is how to be a Shifter and still qualify for Wildrunner


Necklace of the Marauding Beast - all three variants (Raging Bear, Frenzied Shark, and Rampaging Boar) give +1 round for duration of Rage
I don't mentioned them because they're kinda expensive - from 11840 to 12440 gp
If somebody thinks their Rage don't lasts enough, there are some cheaper options:
Mask of Blood (Magic Item Compendium) costs 3300 gp, gives +1 round for duration of Rage, and ranged (30') touch attack for 4d6 damage 2/day
Brash weapon special ability (Magic Item Compendium) gives +3 rounds for duration of Rage, immunity to fear; and just +1 bonus

Duration is not a problem, if all these abilities go off at the same time the duration bonus from Constitution alone will be massive (though the weapon ability is enticing)


Also, Symbiotic and Tauric templates should give Rage too (and keep the race).
Problems: Symbiotic Creature required specific sizes (can you make your Shifter Large?), and Tauric Creature - with Dire Wolverine (or Frenzy Dog (https://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a)) is +5 racial HD (on top of LA +3). Speaking of Frenzy Dog - may be not so bad, considering 10/day Rage with +4 on saves vs enchantment spells and effects...


Past Life template (Dungeon Master's Guide II) can allow to use Greater Rage 1/day (as 11th-level Barbarian). I don't mentioned it earlier because LA +5 is rather high

Too high LAs both, sadly. I do not know much about Symbiotic creatures, but I have seen some TO builds with it where things got.......messy (granted, it was TO, but still)


Better off using the Shifter (or Changeling) as the guest and a Dire Wolverine with enlarge animal cast on it as the host. This will also let you cram a lot more levels in with some stinky, stinky cheese (the guest's ECL doesn't contribute at all to the ECL of the Symbiotic Creature by RAW, so you could bolt a full 20 gestalt levels onto a 5RHD Dire Wolverine for the price of +1 LA, giving you a final ECL of 6).

I believe that is the basis of the aforementioned problem...this could essentially result in a quadstalt (which, in this case, could prove beneficial, but it seems so abusive and cheaty!!!!!)


If you're going the Changeling route, you would also need to take Human Heritage as your first-level feat in order to continue being able to change into humanoids after the template is applied.

Could you clarify that please?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Correct me if I am wrong, but while that would indeed allow entry to (potentially) both Weretouched Master and Wildrunner it does not allow the use of racial abilities, eg the Shifter's Shifting ability [do note that a Shifter Bloodclaw Master actually has two Shifting abilities, one from race and one as a class feature (same name, same fluff, mechanically almost identical, technically two separate abilities and so can stack with each other!)]


Bloodclaw Master has a sidebar devoted to Shifter entries. Instead of gaining the class's Shifting mechanic, they gain a daily use of racial Shifting at 1st and 5th level. So, theoretically, while Racial Emulating a Shifter you get a single use of the racial Shifting mechanic!


Could you clarify that please?

Actually, it looks like I was misremembering. I though Racial Emulation only worked for your type (so you'd need to stay Humanoid), but it appears to apply only to Humanoid forms regardless of your actual type. So Symbiotic Creature turning you into an Aberration isn't a problem.

[Morty_Jhones]

If your still concidering Weir creature,

you can get round the magic limitation with Natural Spell caster (druid only) or Alternate Spellcaster (Shapshifter Only)
they both allow speel casting without hands or Voice using claw/tentical gesters and raws and calls as apropreat for your new body shape.

this opens up all the magic 'Rage' affects. of which thee are meny

[ShurikVch]

The problem is how to be a Shifter and still qualify for Wildrunner
The most RAW way:
Be a Shifter;
Pay for Contingent Spell (Reincarnate);
Kill yourself;
Check if you reincarnated as an Elf (if no - pay for Wish to revert back to Shifter);
If yes - become a Wildrunner; then - pay for Wish to revert back to Shifter...
Simpler - but less RAW - variant: claim your Shifter is a descendant from Elves (rather than Humans): Half-Elves are legal for Wildrunner...

[Dragonsworn]

Bloodclaw Master has a sidebar devoted to Shifter entries. Instead of gaining the class's Shifting mechanic, they gain a daily use of racial Shifting at 1st and 5th level. So, theoretically, while Racial Emulating a Shifter you get a single use of the racial Shifting mechanic!



Actually, it looks like I was misremembering. I though Racial Emulation only worked for your type (so you'd need to stay Humanoid), but it appears to apply only to Humanoid forms regardless of your actual type. So Symbiotic Creature turning you into an Aberration isn't a problem.

:smalleek:

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek:

I CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THAT
I mean, I must have read that class a bazillion times, and I had seen that sidebar! And when I decided to look stuff up, I went over it in a heart bit.......damn, I need to rethink the whole build

................actually....No, I don't! Since Shifter and Bloodclaw master don't stack (well, they do, but not the way I want) and I can't have both abilities, no need to be a Shifter. Or a Changeling for that matter! I could be a *regular* lycanthrope Elf and go into Weretouched Master the normal way, then onto Wildrunner and the like.

So that's solved! No more race issues


If your still concidering Weir creature,

you can get round the magic limitation with Natural Spell caster (druid only) or Alternate Spellcaster (Shapshifter Only)
they both allow speel casting without hands or Voice using claw/tentical gesters and raws and calls as apropreat for your new body shape.

this opens up all the magic 'Rage' affects. of which thee are meny

By Weir I assume you mean Were-, as in lycanthrope, and I guess Alternate Spellcaster is Surrogate Spellcasting (https://dndtools.net/feats/savage-species--47/surrogate-spellcasting--2853/)? I am not trying to avoid spells for the inability to cast them (after all, lycanthropes can cast in hybrid form), but just for the simplicity of things as well as the score of non-spell related Rage-like abilities from classes that do not advance spellcasting, which would not let such a character reach high level spells

But since you mentioned it, just how many spell-originated Rage effects are there? I was aware of only a few (please note I do not count battle-enhancing spells such as Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/dragon-magic--62/ferocity-of-sanguine-rage--1070/index.html) or Burning Rage (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/burning-rage--3001/index.html) as Rage effects, despite what their names would lead you to think! The actual Rage (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/rage--2570/index.html) spell, especially in its (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/deities-and-demigods--39/rage--986/index.html) 3.0 version (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/defenders-of-the-faith-a-guidebook-to-clerics-and-paladins--38/rage--952/index.html) is ok, since it sypposedly imitates the very Barbarian class feature. They need to work as the Barbarian's Rage. Assume that at least one ability score must receive a bonus to count)


The most RAW way:
Be a Shifter;
Pay for Contingent Spell (Reincarnate);
Kill yourself;
Check if you reincarnated as an Elf (if no - pay for Wish to revert back to Shifter);
If yes - become a Wildrunner; then - pay for Wish to revert back to Shifter...

I have seen that trick rehashed many times. Not only is it not guaranteed to work (like, ever), but it is adequately time, level and gold consuming (even if you are a combination of classes that can give you access to both those spells) to send you straight to level 1 (from which ever level you started), with no gold, in a form you do not want and cannot retry because you are broke and at the start of your adventuring career

Also is wayyy too high in my cheat-o-metre


Simpler - but less RAW - variant: claim your Shifter is a descendant from Elves (rather than Humans): Half-Elves are legal for Wildrunner...

Apart from obvious fluff, I believe no form of RAW or RAI can support that

[Dragonsworn]

Ah, crap. Just reread Weretouched Master and it requires Shifter. So I guess a Changeling is the only option

So, for those of you more knowledgeable on Changelings than I am, can a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat qualify for any PrC race requirement it wants? And what about for Shifter feats?



Edit: wait.....as per the aforementioned sidebar, can a normal character who went into Bloodclaw Master now qualify as a Shifter? As in, for feats and PrCs? 'Cause that greatly simplifies things!

[ShurikVch]

But since you mentioned it, just how many spell-originated Rage effects are there? I was aware of only a few (please note I do not count battle-enhancing spells such as Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/dragon-magic--62/ferocity-of-sanguine-rage--1070/index.html) or Burning Rage (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/burning-rage--3001/index.html) as Rage effects, despite what their names would lead you to think! The actual Rage (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/rage--2570/index.html) spell, especially in its (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/deities-and-demigods--39/rage--986/index.html) 3.0 version (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/defenders-of-the-faith-a-guidebook-to-clerics-and-paladins--38/rage--952/index.html) is ok, since it sypposedly imitates the very Barbarian class feature. They need to work as the Barbarian's Rage. Assume that at least one ability score must receive a bonus to count)
Abyssal Frenzy (Fiendish Codex I)?
Beastland Ferocity (Spell Compendium)?
Righteous Fury (Spell Compendium)?
Valiant Fury (Spell Compendium)?

Enrage Animal (Spell Compendium) and Enrage Animals (Champions of Ruin) are definitely should count.
And Blood Frenzy (Spell Compendium) is literally "spend 2nd-level spell to use Rage one more time"



I have seen that trick rehashed many times. Not only is it not guaranteed to work (like, ever)
And why it is?
Sure, there is no guaranty it would work the first time, but give it enough attempts - and why it wouldn't work (spiteful DM aside)?


but it is adequately time, level and gold consuming (even if you are a combination of classes that can give you access to both those spells) to send you straight to level 1 (from which ever level you started), with no gold, in a form you do not want and cannot retry because you are broke and at the start of your adventuring career
Last Breath (Spell Compendium) works exactly like Reincarnate - except no level loss, and even cheaper (same level, and 500 gp of material component - vs 1000 gp for Reincarnate)


Also is wayyy too high in my cheat-o-metre
Hey, you wanted to play classes with different racial prerequisites at the same character!
I suggested some "2in1" templates, but you declined them all (not like you can't - I just pointing)

Sure, Half-Elves are can count as both Elves and Humans (sometimes), and Stoneblessed PrC allow to count as a Dwarf, Gnome, or Goliath - but it's exceptions, not a common occurrences

The only other method I can think of is to use Aleam Valassar the Paladin/Assassin (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215125/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060609a) logic, and possess a Shifter with some elven fiend (Vhaerath (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101150327/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040818a)?)


Apart from obvious fluff, I believe no form of RAW or RAI can support that
Forgotten Realms have Lythari - special kind of elven werewolves which can't transmit their lycanthropy to any non-Elf. Sound like a good (Chaotic Good - to be exact) progenitors for our supposed Shifter...

[JoeNapalm]

Wouldn't you need Wildrunner 2 to gain Primal Scream?


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Ah, crap. Just reread Weretouched Master and it requires Shifter. So I guess a Changeling is the only option

So, for those of you more knowledgeable on Changelings than I am, can a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat qualify for any PrC race requirement it wants? And what about for Shifter feats?



Edit: wait.....as per the aforementioned sidebar, can a normal character who went into Bloodclaw Master now qualify as a Shifter? As in, for feats and PrCs? 'Cause that greatly simplifies things!

I believe the consensus is that Changeling with Racial Emulation qualifies for any (humanoid) racial PrCs, feats, and substitution levels/ACFs, as long as they meet all the other requirements. Whether or not you keep those benefits when you change your disguise is goes back to the debate on what happens when you lose a prerequisite in general (which is extremely contentious and not a topic for this thread), but if we assume that they do keep them then yes, you should be able to meet all your prerequisites with Racial Emulation.

The racial shifting benefit of Bloodclaw Master is specifically for Shifter characters, so no, only Shifters and Changelings w/ Racial Emulation.

[Dragonsworn]

Abyssal Frenzy (Fiendish Codex I)?
Beastland Ferocity (Spell Compendium)?
Righteous Fury (Spell Compendium)?
Valiant Fury (Spell Compendium)?

Enrage Animal (Spell Compendium) and Enrage Animals (Champions of Ruin) are definitely should count.
And Blood Frenzy (Spell Compendium) is literally "spend 2nd-level spell to use Rage one more time"

:smalleek: WOW :smalleek:

I have only read up on casters with emphasis on their casting (BFC, CC, general problem-solving abilities) and a little bit on gishes, but I hadn't realised the depth of their buff potential (I new it was deep, but I didn't know there were so many abilities to replicate Rage alone!) - apart form Enrage Animal, which I believe cannot affect a lycanthrope even in his animal form, since they lack the beast type, correct?


And why it is?
Sure, there is no guaranty it would work the first time, but give it enough attempts - and why it wouldn't work (spiteful DM aside)?


Last Breath (Spell Compendium) works exactly like Reincarnate - except no level loss, and even cheaper (same level, and 500 gp of material component - vs 1000 gp for Reincarnate)

I said that with the Reincarnate table in mind (PH p.270), which I remembered a lot bigger than it actually is (and even has a DM's choise clause on a natural 100, so with some DM cooperation... :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:). Now that I look at it again you get to be a Half-elf on a roll of 43-52 (for some reason I thought you needed a roll of 1 to 2 numbers, not 10 :smallredface:), so even though you still might get completely unwanted results the odds are much better than what I initially thought. Apologies

The Last Breath trick actually can be done ad infinitum until the desired result is met. I was not aware there was an updated version in Spell Compendium, it couldn't with the old version as it did entail a level loss. Kudos, thank you.


Hey, you wanted to play classes with different racial prerequisites at the same character!
I suggested some "2in1" templates, but you declined them all (not like you can't - I just pointing)

Sure, Half-Elves are can count as both Elves and Humans (sometimes), and Stoneblessed PrC allow to count as a Dwarf, Gnome, or Goliath - but it's exceptions, not a common occurrences

Uhm, I get my constant calling your methods cheesy might be a bit insulting, but believe me that was not my intention! You have been very helpful and I am still trying to incorporate some of your suggestions to the build. Again, I apologise if it came off that way, you have done nothing but try to help out, I am just trying to figure a more down-to-earth approach (to my defence I was not actually trying to be both races, just to overcome a prerequisite :smallwink:)


The only other method I can think of is to use Aleam Valassar the Paladin/Assassin (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215125/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060609a) logic, and possess a Shifter with some elven fiend (Vhaerath (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101150327/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040818a)?)


Forgotten Realms have Lythari - special kind of elven werewolves which can't transmit their lycanthropy to any non-Elf. Sound like a good (Chaotic Good - to be exact) progenitors for our supposed Shifter...

Wow, you are clearly very knowledgeable in this stuff. This looks like it could actually happen, but since I found out combining Shifter with Bloodclaw Master does not offer extra benefits (apart from daily uses) I am less inclined to include it


Wouldn't you need Wildrunner 2 to gain Primal Scream?


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Whoops, I thought I had cleared such errors.....fixed it


I believe the consensus is that Changeling with Racial Emulation qualifies for any (humanoid) racial PrCs, feats, and substitution levels/ACFs, as long as they meet all the other requirements. Whether or not you keep those benefits when you change your disguise is goes back to the debate on what happens when you lose a prerequisite in general (which is extremely contentious and not a topic for this thread), but if we assume that they do keep them then yes, you should be able to meet all your prerequisites with Racial Emulation.

The racial shifting benefit of Bloodclaw Master is specifically for Shifter characters, so no, only Shifters and Changelings w/ Racial Emulation.

So I cannot enter Weretouched Master without being a Changeling, but I could enter Bloodclaw master as an Elf, right?

Still, seems like Changeling is the only way

[ShurikVch]

Found some more things:

Ghoul Rage - from the Blood Ghoul template (Ghostwalk Web Enhancement (https://web.archive.org/web/20160123064844/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a); Download link doesn't works, but you can get it there (https://www.tsrarchive.com/3e/Ghostwalk%20Web%20Enhancement.pdf))

Rageclaws soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum)

Also, I know you "try to avoid Dragon magazine", but Dragon #280 was published by Wizards of the Coast (rather than Paizo), and has Red Rager alchemical salve, which gives +2 Str/-4 Dex for a hour; using more than 2/week may cause 1 Cha drain; 50 gp

[Dragonsworn]

Found some more things:

Ghoul Rage - from the Blood Ghoul template (Ghostwalk Web Enhancement (https://web.archive.org/web/20160123064844/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a); Download link doesn't works, but you can get it there (https://www.tsrarchive.com/3e/Ghostwalk%20Web%20Enhancement.pdf))

Rageclaws soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum)

Also, I know you "try to avoid Dragon magazine", but Dragon #280 was published by Wizards of the Coast (rather than Paizo), and has Red Rager alchemical salve, which gives +2 Str/-4 Dex for a hour; using more than 2/week may cause 1 Cha drain; 50 gp

Again, interesting choises

The Blood Ghoul template lists a CR increase but no LA increase. Does that make it a +0 one?

I don't know if I can fit Incarnum into the build. Maybe with the feat, but I have yet (intentionally) to check how many feats it would take to qualify for everything else.......

The item is interesting, could pile even more boni on top of the ones from the class features

[ShurikVch]

The Blood Ghoul template lists a CR increase but no LA increase. Does that make it a +0 one?
It was released in the end of 3.0 era (about a month before the 3.5) - and LA was uncommon back then
Thus, technically, it should be up to DM
But, since the official 3.5 update (https://web.archive.org/web/20150328170920/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a) don't changed it, you can claim it's +0

[Kuulvheysoon]

It was released in the end of 3.0 era (about a month before the 3.5) - and LA was uncommon back then
Thus, technically, it should be up to DM
But, since the official 3.5 update (https://web.archive.org/web/20150328170920/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a) don't changed it, you can claim it's +0

I don't feel like that's exactly kosher. I'd take something with a complete lack of an LA line as LA: –, not LA +0. And that 3.5E update only covers the book itself, not the web enhancement, so it wouldn't be in there anyways.

Given that it's a temporary template (which is weird as all heck, not going to lie), I'd guess that the lack of LA wasn't a mistake.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Again, interesting choises

The Blood Ghoul template lists a CR increase but no LA increase. Does that make it a +0 one?

I don't know if I can fit Incarnum into the build. Maybe with the feat, but I have yet (intentionally) to check how many feats it would take to qualify for everything else.......

The item is interesting, could pile even more boni on top of the ones from the class features


I don't feel like that's exactly kosher. I'd take something with a complete lack of an LA line as LA: –, not LA +0. And that 3.5E update only covers the book itself, not the web enhancement, so it wouldn't be in there anyways.

Given that it's a temporary template (which is weird as all heck, not going to lie), I'd guess that the lack of LA wasn't a mistake.

By strict RAW, anything not mentioned by a template is unchanged. That means a template that doesn't mention LA doesn't change it, and is therefore essentially +0 on a base creature that's not already LA: --.

However, most of those templates were pretty clearly written without considering that rule, and were intended to be LA: --. Ask your DM unless you're just theory-crafting, and most of the competitions on this board explicitly forbid such templates as LA: --.

Since you are theory-crafting, though, it's technically legal! The best kind of legal.

[Endarire]

I thought that an immortal Illumian Cancer Mage with Festering Anger would be the angriest possible being in existence, especially if it were some sort of rage deity incarnation.

[ShurikVch]

Wildren - from Planar Handbook - have Fury, which explicitly stacks with Rage and similar effects

Waveservant PrC (Faiths and Pantheons) at 4th level gets Sahuagin Rage

Proto-Creature template (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised) gets Rage (their racial HD count as "virtual Barbarian levels") which activates when they damage somebody; LA +0

If items from the Dragon are OK, #356 have Demonhair Shirt: by spending two daily uses of Rage, you get demonic fury - profane bonus on Str (+6), AC (+2), and speed (+10'); your weapons - natural or not - count as chaotic to overcoming DR; you take 2 nonlethal damage each round; effects stack with Rage or/and Frenzy; 26000 gp

Also, some substitution levels:
Awesome Charge - 5th level of Fangshields Barbarian (Champions of Valor): while raging, at the end of the charge you can make Awesome Blow (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow) - even without prerequisites
Insightful Rage - 5th level of Half-Orc Barbarian (Races of Destiny): +4 to disbelieve illusions while raging
Menacing Rage - 11th level of Barbarian Planar Substitution Levels (Planar Handbook): Outsiders and extraplanar creatures withing 20' of raging Barbarian should make Will save, or get -2 on attacks, checks, and saves against the Barbarian
Unholy Fury - 1st level of Chaotic Evil Barbarian (any alignment change would switch this to "regular" Rage; Exemplars of Evil): during the Rage, Barbarian can Smite non-CE enemy once (it doesn't end the Rage)

[Dragonsworn]

I thought that an immortal Illumian Cancer Mage with Festering Anger would be the angriest possible being in existence, especially if it were some sort of rage deity incarnation.

Yes, if you let that anger fester for a lot and if you are just interested in the high strength yield. I am trying to combine many different but similar abilities so you can be all types of angry


Wildren - from Planar Handbook - have Fury, which explicitly stacks with Rage and similar effects

Waveservant PrC (Faiths and Pantheons) at 4th level gets Sahuagin Rage

Proto-Creature template (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised) gets Rage (their racial HD count as "virtual Barbarian levels") which activates when they damage somebody; LA +0

If items from the Dragon are OK, #356 have Demonhair Shirt: by spending two daily uses of Rage, you get demonic fury - profane bonus on Str (+6), AC (+2), and speed (+10'); your weapons - natural or not - count as chaotic to overcoming DR; you take 2 nonlethal damage each round; effects stack with Rage or/and Frenzy; 26000 gp

Also, some substitution levels:
Awesome Charge - 5th level of Fangshields Barbarian (Champions of Valor): while raging, at the end of the charge you can make Awesome Blow (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow) - even without prerequisites
Insightful Rage - 5th level of Half-Orc Barbarian (Races of Destiny): +4 to disbelieve illusions while raging
Menacing Rage - 11th level of Barbarian Planar Substitution Levels (Planar Handbook): Outsiders and extraplanar creatures withing 20' of raging Barbarian should make Will save, or get -2 on attacks, checks, and saves against the Barbarian
Unholy Fury - 1st level of Chaotic Evil Barbarian (any alignment change would switch this to "regular" Rage; Exemplars of Evil): during the Rage, Barbarian can Smite non-CE enemy once (it doesn't end the Rage)

I had never heard of Wildren! Will have to look it up

Waveservant is solid, though it requires at least three divine caster levels. Still, it gives the required ability!

I have already added the Proto-creature template, but I am having second thoughts about it since it says that if you have Barbarian levels it stacks with them rather than give a new ability :(

That shirt would be sick with that character and its concept in mind, but I am very much trying to avoid magazine material......though in this case I might make an exception.....

Those substitutions are interesting. I especially like the Fangshield's Awesome Blow, but I will be hard pressed to fit 5 Barbarian levels

Does anyone have a definite answer to whether Proto-creature stacks with everything else?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Worth noting that you cannot take the Fangshields Barbarian substitution level if you're a Humanoid. It explicitly calls out that you must be nonhumanoid.

[Dragonsworn]

Worth noting that you cannot take the Fangshields Barbarian substitution level if you're a Humanoid. It explicitly calls out that you must be nonhumanoid.

So far the most possible race selection seems to be a Changeling with Racial Emulation....could that sneak enter Fangshields?

[Kuulvheysoon]

So far the most possible race selection seems to be a Changeling with Racial Emulation....could that sneak enter Fangshields?

Nope. Racial Emulation only works within the Humanoid type, allowing you to assume their subtypes. It doesn't do anything to change your base type.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

So far the most possible race selection seems to be a Changeling with Racial Emulation....could that sneak enter Fangshields?

If you've got a template that changes you to another type (e.g. Symbiotic Creature with a Dire Wolverine), Racial Emulation will still work and you'll qualify for Fangshields. Which is kind of hilarious when you think about it, since they can't change their body type.

[Dragonsworn]

If you've got a template that changes you to another type (e.g. Symbiotic Creature with a Dire Wolverine), Racial Emulation will still work and you'll qualify for Fangshields. Which is kind of hilarious when you think about it, since they can't change their body type.

Well, I am planning to have this guy be a lycanthrope, but although fluff- and appearance-wise it makes you (look like) a monstrous humanoid, you only gain the shapechanger subtype.....probably not enough for Fangshields