How do you make a good reoccurring big bad? [Archive]

Man_Over_Game

2021-07-30, 05:32 PM

So say you have a boss you want the players to get involved with and recognize. Maybe he's likable, maybe your players want to rip out his guts, whatever.

How do you get the boss to interact with the players to create that relationship? I've been mulling it over in my head, and they all seem to have some concerns:

Strahd (of 5e) is a great reoccurring villain, but he makes the players feel powerless each time he sees them. What if that's not the kind of dynamic you want?
Having escape plans are a great solution, but how often are they entertaining for the player?
And most solutions would involve an enemy that uses magic to escape. How would you implement one that didn't?

And for the sake of simplicity, how would you do this without playing 4d chess? Like, if you're just not an intelligent DM, what's a solid solution that doesn't require you to plan 4 steps ahead?

Actually, going to move this to the General RPG thread. I'm sure there's a bunch of grognards who have some good advice on this.

Tvtyrant

2021-07-30, 05:52 PM

Kvess

2021-07-30, 06:28 PM

Seclora

2021-07-30, 06:53 PM

I've been running a Night Hag as the primary antagonist for a level 8 party with no utility casters. She harasses their dreams, tricks other monsters into attacking them, and is dedicated to morally corrupting one of the characters. She would also die in about a single round of combat. She knows this, and so she stays out of their reach. She can't cause them any serious harm, but she does make it so that they can't trust their own dreams.

Now, they are embarked on a whole quest just to find her name so they can force her into the open, and I didn't even have to convince them to want it.

da newt

2021-07-30, 07:03 PM

Puppeteers and masterminds make great villains because they make things happen, but don't do it themselves. They are too smart to expose themselves in that way so they use pawns and emissaries and mercs and the gullible/charmed/controlled to do their bidding. Direct confrontation is for chumps.

A really bad guy gives the 'heroes' a reason to be emotionally involved - do something terrible to someone's mom, little sister, favorite NPC, etc.

MrCharlie

2021-07-30, 07:09 PM

After dealing with several parties and many players for several years as a DM, I have come to one conclusion about how to keep the recurring evil guy alive.

Complete immortality is the only thing that works.

Innocent bystander possession? The party tries to trap his soul. Killing him has a failure condition? Mission failed, who cares. He interacts through dreams and visions? The party will attempt to weaponize their dreams to hurt the bastard.

Unless you outright say he's immortal, the party will try to subvert his recurring villain status at every turn, showing considerable and shocking innovation to do so, and you'll have to railroad or directly confront the players to keep him alive-and it's not worth the effort.

That's why I've generally tried to include either more organizations as threats, or taken to using big bads so powerful that the party will simply fail to kill them.

Sigreid

2021-07-30, 07:13 PM

The classic answer is the players know who the big bad is, but he's a trusted confidant of the king and therefore untouchable until they can out him.

EggKookoo

2021-07-30, 07:54 PM

In one game (currently on hold), the PCs are in an abandoned, devastated kingdom trying to figure out a way to take down a warlord that has taken over a portion of it. They're trying to avoid the warlord's roving bands, who outclass the PCs power-wise (for now), while they gather their strength and work out a strategy. At one point they came across a former friend of theirs. This is an NPC but he's based on a PC from a long time ago (the player isn't playing with us any more) named Devan. Devan has lost all his magic and power, and is convinced the warlord is the key to getting it back. When the party found him, he had this ridiculously optimistic/foolish plan to fight his way into the warlord's base, something the party wasted no time in explaining to him.

So, Devan kind of joined the party as what amounted to a mascot. I mean he isn't useless but he isn't on par with the PCs, and they often need to help him out or make sure he's safe and stuff like that. As you might have guessed, Devan is the warlord in disguise, and he conquered the kingdom at some point after he stopped being a PC. I'm waiting for a good time to reveal it to the party, assuming they don't get me to reveal it accidentally. I'm thinking the best time is after they've brought the fight to the warlord (something Devan keeps urging them to do) and maybe just as they think they have the drop on him in his chambers or throne room.

DigoDragon

2021-07-31, 06:37 AM

Practical Guide to Evil uses mindcontrolled body puppets and it works. If you kill one you murdered an innocent individual, but foiled their local plan. If not you let the plan succeed. Inspires deep hatred.

For a less morally gray option, your big bad could create a siraculum to show up as the puppet. Gives your players a cathartic release when they destroy it and you can ham it up by having the duplicate laugh maniacally as it melts into snow or whatever it was made from. :3

Satinavian

2021-07-31, 06:49 AM

Vahnavoi

2021-07-31, 07:04 AM

The first questions are, what is the Big Bad doing and why? The second, related questions are, why would the player characters want to kill them?

Because the Big Bad doesn't need to be someone who must be killed in the first place.

To cross this topic over with "losing a fight versus losing the game" topic, the Big Bad could be manager or captain of a rival sportsteam. They could be a corrupt member of a panel of judges. Or an esteemed religious leader. The important point here is that murdering the Big Bad, even just fighting the Big Bad, is beyond legal rights of the player characters and antithetical to their basic goals. You don't get ahead in the sports tournament by murdering your rival; the legal proceeding won't turn in your favor if you murder one of the judges, it will just make you liable for a brand new crime; killing a religious leader (even better: your own religious leader) might be much worse than redeeming that leader or otherwise swaying them to your side.

Now, even a well-crafted scenario won't stop your players from being stupid. They may still attempt to kill the Big Bad, out of sheer lack of imagination. Let them. Seriously. Let them. Let them be stupid and then suffer the consequences for it. The point isn't to remove the option of killing the Big Bad, it's to make it a losing option. If your players get the hint, it will be a more impactful message going forward than simply making the Big Bad indestructible.

KineticDiplomat

2021-07-31, 09:00 AM

Since you’ve chosen D&D, you’ve really limited your avenues to making this work. As always, my number one advice is to ditch the concrete shoes keeping you on the bottom of the river…

But since the is probably won’t do that, how do you make a good recurring BBEG within the D&D paradigm?

1. They need to be powerful enough to go toe to toe for several rounds. Like it or not, your players are going to try to kill said bad guy. And as ROFLSTOMPing murderhobos who bend reality and carry around more wealth than the average minor noble, they really don’t care about societal checks. Doesn’t mean you should push for combat confrontation, but you need to be prepared for it. Also, in D&D asskicking = authority (or vice versa) most of the time anyhow, particularly with evil folks.

In D&D this also means your BBEG is going to be some version of magical/fantastical since martials are both cannon fodder and boring in combat.

2. Create a confrontation sandwhich (or a sine wave of you prefer). Story segment BBEG related event with confrontation - story segment culminating without the BBEG, but related (allies, minions, related investigatory aside, whatever - back to BBEG with a new power dynamic. It’s as predictable as a three act structure, but like having three acts, it’s predictable because it works.

Narratively this lets you build up repetitions while both being impressed by and scoring wins against the BBEG without killing him, ending in a climactic show down.

Mechanically, it lets you pull out basically every encounter trick. The one where a super bad guy is seen in a distance? First time. Where you run like hell? 2nd time. Where you work to foil his plans while he is fighting something else, where he runs away, where he would finish you if he didn’t have other pressing business…you can use them all, and then have a classic crawl-boss against one of his schemes in between.

Kvess

2021-07-31, 09:37 AM

They need to be powerful enough to go toe to toe for several rounds. Like it or not, your players are going to try to kill said bad guy. And as ROFLSTOMPing murderhobos who bend reality and carry around more wealth than the average minor noble, they really don’t care about societal checks.
D&D's weirdness cuts both ways. If your band of murderhobos slays someone important in an extralegal assassination, there's nothing stopping the crown/church/organization from ponying up diamonds, casting Raise Dead, and putting the villain on the witness stand of a murder trial.

If death isn't always permanent, then just killing someone isn't really a solution.

Edit: Short of a Level 11 Wizard casting Disintegrate + Gust of Wind.

Man_Over_Game

2021-07-31, 06:41 PM

vasilidor

2021-07-31, 07:52 PM

Lex Luther is not dead because he is a popular villain. the same with a lot of other villains.
A recurring villain in D&D needs 1 (or more) of 3 things.
1. be straight up to powerful to kill.
2. escape plans.
3. resurrection plans.

Never count on the players to let him escape, or live.

That said, I think if I ever wrote a Batman story with the joker in it, I would have some random dude kill the joker upon spotting him. Just kill him dead in the street, and as long as it was my story, he would remain dead.

Trask

2021-07-31, 08:49 PM

Look at Palpatine in Star Wars, in both his Emperor and Chancellor forms. Hes a villain who appears each movie of his respective trilogies and acts as the overarching villain of the entire saga. Not a bad place to start. But in both trilogies, Palpatine doesnt actually do anything directly until the climax of the last movies and yet he still inspires dread, so maybe the key to a good recurring bad guy is good press rather than frequency of appearance. By the time the PCs confront this guy, they should absolutely not be asking questions like "Who are you?!" anymore, their ears should be well accustomed to his name. Just being around for a long time can make a villain better.

As the Emperor, (Lich) we as the audience see him pretty early on as a giant holographic head that Darth Vader (Death Knight) is kneeling to. Because Vader, (extremely intimidating figure) KNEELS to this person, we automatically think more of him as a villain without the movie actually having to put him onscreen. Extrapolated into D&D terms, having your villain appear in smoky visions, illusions, or as a booming voice from the sky, or as a name said in fear by otherwise fearless villains can heighten their mystique and intimidation factor without you having to put them in harms way or bully the low level PCs.

As the Chancellor, its a more political setup. Darth Sidious is his true form and Chancellor Palpatine is just an alter ego. Whether the players know that the friendly NPC is the villain or not doesn't really matter, but it will make the reveal all the more shocking if they truly believed he was their good friend. This is more like banking a great reveal that will make a villain memorable in retrospect rather than setting one up from the start, but those kinds of reveals can be powerful.

And of course in the disney trilogy he returns from the dead to terrorize the galaxy once more but I'm not sure I would call that a good example of making a recurring bad guy :smalltongue:

Time Troll

2021-07-31, 11:04 PM

A couple of ways:

1. Remove the villain from combat. If you have any NPC walk over to any average murderhobo Pc, they will simply get attacked. So never ever have the villain do that. Keep the NPC out of reach and a non combatant.

For combat, that is what the henchmen are for....just make a "leader' for the Pcs to fight.

2.Security Total lock down hard core common sense security. Lots of body guards. Lots of defenses. And the somewhat obvious: the PC never get within a mile of the NPC without being disarmed and dismagiced. Having all the PCs strip down to commoner clothing is a must and all armor, weapons and items are taken from them. Spellcasters have their arms ti and are gagged. Or must wear a pair of anti magical shackles. Plus have divinations or mind reading used on them to see if they wish to harm the NPC. Once you get past the mundane and simple magic, the sky is the limit for effects: The NPC only meets with the PCs after they have reduced in size to one inch tall, a ghost freindly to the NPC possesses each PC, or NPC only meets people by projected illusion.

3.Defences You can do mundane defences, but really you will need magic here. Something like a quick teleport away works best. You can do mundane secret doors and such, but it will take a LOT of detail to make it work.

4.Non Creature Foes-The NPC is not only not human, but they are...for example....an Evil River. Not a "water elemntal" but they are the spirit of the 65 mile long river that runs through the kingdom. They could also be a tree or a rock or a item like a ring.

5.Endless Puppets Fit along with the one above if you feel you "must" have a human to talk to the PCs one on one. They are nothing but animated puppets. Lord Zok is just some random poor human who drank water from the Evil River. If he is killed, the Evil River just picks another body.

This goes along with doppelgangers, clones, copies, duplicates, illusions and such.

6.The Replacement Kill the big bad NPC foe....and there is always a Starscream waiting to move up and take that spot.

7.The Unknown They are out there, but no one knows where or even who they are. Maybe they act by agents or a illusion of a floating eye. Or maybe they just stay out of things in mundane ways.

8.The Good Villain They are a good person, maybe even doing a good things....but they still oppose the PCs. So how foes a good PC murderhobo a good person?

9.The connected Foe This is a VERY tricky one to pull off AND you need players that care about the game and story and all.

10.The Money Train This villain simply put is worth more to the PCs alive. You can do politics or drama IF your players care about such things. Or you could just go straight up bribe: the villain gives the PCs each a potion of +100 to hit, and gives them one each week. Few players would kill an NPC that got them such potions

11.The Group of villeins D&D like a lot of RPGs is a group of players vs a single foe....and even then the game rules get wonky. So make a bad group, with a villain or two for each PC.

12.The Comeback They come right back if killed. There are plenty of ways to do it in the rules. EVEN if they are killed, they can STILL come right back as an UNDEAD: this is right in the rules too.

Slipjig

2021-08-01, 07:09 PM

Have the first few meetings between the PCs and BBEG be non-hostile. If he's a king, maybe the PCs have hit a group of bandits so nasty that they are on track for a TPK, then the king and his retinue come around the bend and rescue them. That both puts the PCs in his debt AND establishes that he isn't somebody to mess with.

Make it ambiguous whether the King is actually bad, or just has wicked minions. Does Prince John REALLY know what the Sheriff of Nottingham is doing with his authority? If the PCs collect evidence of the Sheriff's crimes, the Prince will throw him to the wolves, and thank the PCs for helping root out corruption in his realm. Also, mix in a few encounters where the BBEG genuinely DOESN'T know about some of the shenanigans his minions are up to.

If you've got a player willing to go along with it, make him a love interest for one of the characters. Bonus points if they have a kid together before the PCs figure out he's a villain.

Give him a sympathetic overarching goal, but have him be willing to take increasingly risky and damaging goals to achieve them. To crib from the Magicians, maybe he wants to bring a beloved child or lover back to life, but his plan for doing so involves breaching the gates to the underworld, and who knows what ELSE will come through? "You're not evil, you're just a deluded jackass!"

Also, give him something that returns him to life, but don't tell the PCs about it until it happens. And even after it happens, don't tell them WHAT it is (let alone how to break that effect) until they've done some serious questing or research to figure it out. And the first time the PCs think they have it figured out, have them be wrong.

DrewID

2021-08-01, 09:06 PM

Be warned, though: much of the advice on how to keep the big bad coming back reads an awful lot like the "How to frustrate your players with the feeling that nothing they do matters" list. I think a safer way (some posts have touched on this) is to run a series of adventures, with a defeat-able big bad, but in the mop-up after each adventure, drop clues that there was Someone Else behind that particular big bad; that they were taking orders from Someone Else. After a few of these, when the PCs chose to investigate, lead them to the conclusion that it was the same Someone Else. Given the predominant paranoia among most PCs, you may no longer need to drop hints. The PCs will start assuming that your Someone Else is behind everything.

DrewID

Kvess

2021-08-01, 09:44 PM

Be warned, though: much of the advice on how to keep the big bad coming back reads an awful lot like the "How to frustrate your players with the feeling that nothing they do matters" list.

That is only the case if the thing they want to do is kill their adversary. Some problems might not be solvable with steel and fire, and I think that’s not only okay, it broadens the scope of the game.

Quertus

2021-08-02, 09:58 AM

Practical Guide to Evil uses mindcontrolled body puppets and it works. If you kill one you murdered an innocent individual, but foiled their local plan. If not you let the plan succeed. Inspires deep hatred.

And thus are born the orphaned murderhobo party, with no connection to the world, that doesn't care about the innocent kill count. Soon, they take to preemptively killing everyone vulnerable to mind control, until the puppeteer has no puppets left, and is forced to get their own hands dirty, to their doom.

Then, the GM can run the confused citizens, trying to overthrow what they believe to be tyrants (possibly tyrants supported by the crown). In other words, they'll get to have their recurring bad guy: it's the party!

That said, I think if I ever wrote a Batman story with the joker in it, I would have some random dude kill the joker upon spotting him. Just kill him dead in the street, and as long as it was my story, he would remain dead.

Hear, hear! That would probably be my favorite Batman story.

Xervous

2021-08-02, 10:37 AM

Hear, hear! That would probably be my favorite Batman story.

Well there is that section of a Batman comic where a random dude kills Batman. (Killing joke?)

I’ve found that some of the best villains are the ones the players make for themselves. Seeding multiple potential conflict driving NPCs allows you to cultivate the ones that survive and draw proper reactions from the players.

Parnell of Parnell Shipping and Salvage Co. is my latest success in that regard. The players arrived at a new port and heard about a ship’s log (ship sank 70 years ago carrying Mcguffin) showing up in the hands of a 3rd party. Parnell sent his butler to arrange for the purchase of the log but that didn’t pan out. Players stole the log, copied it and sold a copy to the butler to secure salvage gear. At this point they didn’t trust Parnell and associates simply because of the competition over the mcguffin but they’re not going to arbitrarily kill someone they disagree with.

Then of course they beat his crews to the wreck and got the mcguffin. Parnell later offers to buy this magical WMD off them, presumably to sell it to someone else. Party refuses, Parnell has some goons send a message.

Flicker forward and more unsavory business ties are revealed, and the party really detests Parnell. The dwarf has only ever showed his face to them once, but even a whisper of his involvement draws blame because the players placed him on this pedestal of esteemed villainy. And what do I do B as a GM? I feed their expectations. News of his death? They 100% believe it’s faked (indeed it is). The important part is it confirms their expectations and grows the villain’s stature in the players eyes.

So a good recurring villain? Find a personal reason for the players to hate the villain. A devil worshipper gets executed when he’s revealed by anyone, so the players might find justification for early violence. The guy who is a business competitor? Less moral justification for the murder hoboing, more incentive to try creative solutions.

Man_Over_Game

2021-08-02, 10:40 AM

8.The Good Villain They are a good person, maybe even doing a good things....but they still oppose the PCs. So how foes a good PC murderhobo a good person?
12.The Comeback They come right back if killed. There are plenty of ways to do it in the rules. EVEN if they are killed, they can STILL come right back as an UNDEAD: this is right in the rules too.

I was just mulling over the idea of combining these just before I read your post. I have this idea for a good guy that's being used as a puppet by an unknown big bad. He doesn't want to be doing bad things, but he does them anyway. Killing him is just a temporary setback, as he's always there again the next time a big bad plot is coming together. The players have to find a way to release the curse for good, or they have to find out who the big bad is based on outside information (like putting together what his plans are) and take him out.

Psyren

2021-08-02, 12:42 PM

Strahd (of 5e) is a great reoccurring villain, but he makes the players feel powerless each time he sees them. What if that's not the kind of dynamic you want?
Having escape plans are a great solution, but how often are they entertaining for the player?
And most solutions would involve an enemy that uses magic to escape. How would you implement one that didn't?

Instead of constantly contriving miraculous and unlikely escapes, you can just plain make them killable. Death doesn't have to be the end, or even much of a speedbump, for a truly scary recurring villain; all you need is some reason why they won't stay down until the heroes complete some kind of plot milestone (or fail.)

Some examples of this type of recurring baddie include Ba'alzamon from Wheel of Time, Kel'thuzad from Warcraft (or any lich really), Harbinger from Mass Effect, Nemesis and Jack Baker from Resident Evil, Naraku from Inuyasha, Buu/Cell/Garlic Jr from Dragonball, Glory from Buffy, the list goes on.

EggKookoo

2021-08-02, 01:19 PM

Well there is that section of a Batman comic where a random dude kills Batman. (Killing joke?)

Not Killing Joke. That's the retelling of Joker's origin, painting him as a more or less normal (if a bit neurotic) guy who just has a series of terrible, horrific things happen to him over the course of one day. Joker attempts to make the point that deep down he's like everyone else, and anyone who had gone through what he did would end up like him (Gordon more or less proves him wrong by the end). This was the (in)famous story where Joker ambushes Barbara and shoots her in the back, paralyzing her. Then he strips her naked and poses her (bleeding and all) for lurid photos, then captures Gordon, strips him naked, ties him up, and bombards him with these same photos in an attempt to break him.

You know, good wholesome family fun.

BRC

2021-08-02, 01:55 PM

The key in my mind is to make the villain's presence Felt, even if they themselves are not Present.

Have a clear sense of their capabilities and methods, and how those capabilities filter down to their henchmen and schemes.

Let the PC's piece together an image of their foe from the outline of what they do, how they do it, and how they are talked about.

Then, you just have them show up once or twice to complete the picture. Make sure that everything they do falls under one of a handful of strong, easily memorable themes.

If your Villain is a Powerful Spellcaster, have that show up everywhere their hand does. Maybe they taunt the PC's with Sending spells, or their minions are mostly spellcasters and summoned constructs.

if your Villain is a deadly swordmaster, then their Henchmen might be students of the blade who are enthralled by their Master's deadly skills. They might be spoken about in hushed whispers as one whose skill with a blade is transcendent.

One of my most memorable BBEG's was a Bard, and one of his core themes was that he was super persuasive. He had agents everywhere, people he'd convinced to work for him, and his armies were a coalition of groups that wouldn't have worked together at all, except that he had managed to convince each one to work with him "For the Time Being".

Each group had a reason they were working with him, even if it was just an Alliance of Convenience for now. One of his Themes was being persuasive and building coalitions.

Another one of his themes was Desperation and Recklessness, a lot of his followers were ordinary people turned into super soldiers through reckless magical experimentation, fighting against the established armies of the land.

He showed up in-person like twice in the campaign. Once in disguise, tricking the party into delivering him to a Macguffin. And later on at the end, when he convinced the PC's to work with him to achieve his immediate goals (The ones he was personally invested in), in exchange for his help against a greater threat, which I thought was a great culmination to a "Diplomancer" BBEG.

vasilidor

2021-08-02, 05:40 PM

The first encounter with him should not be with the BBEG, but actually his minions.
you should be prepared for your characters to pull off a kill if you stick him in the same room as the party, if they know him to be an enemy.

I have never really had much issue with murderhobos in my game though, it all sounds weird to me, but as that seems to be the normal for everyone else...

Actually, I think I have only had one player behave like that.

back on subject; you should also be prepared for the party to join him if you he is persuasive enough.

MR_Anderson

2021-08-03, 02:06 AM

So I started my players at 0-Level and the big baddie has been around since then.

They originally worked for him, enjoyed the good pay, but then realized they were getting screwed.

The party hates him as he always means problems and bad times, but he always has the solution or means to get what they want, but never in the way they expect, and he gets what he wants.

He is Lawful Evil, has never lied to them, but never tells them the full truth; he far overpowers the party, but he seems to not have an interest in killing the party, and has a connection to the family members of some of the players.

I haven’t decided if he’s going to actually be the father of the one player or not, but he could fit the role of the Darth Vader if need be, and it would just piss off the players even more.

The best enemy is the one you need to keep alive. This is why the Loki character became loved, Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars movie, and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade excelled in areas the others lacked.

Establish a baddie that has a reason to let the party live, even when it could destroy them in an instant if they wanted too. This helps develop a reason why the bad guy gets close.

Understand the secret of creating a great story arc. The players will overcome a few things making the heroes, but make sure you place someone there to help them; then they will have to face their past and what it might mean for them; then if they overcome their past they can then help others to overcome and become the next generation of heroes.

If the heroes fail and take the dark path, instead of getting a Return of the Jedi type of ending you get Revenge of the Sith ending.

As for how to keep the big baddie around...

...an evil party that backs up the big baddie actually makes good in the case of rescue missions.

EDIT: Oh it is also interesting to place a bigger problem or bigger baddie in the story and force the party to team up with their enemy to overcome.

The best enemies are the ones that are the closest to you. I recommend watching the movie U.S. Marshals and TV show Agents of Shield. Robert Downey Jr, makes a great bad guy and the guy who plays Grant Ward keeps coming back as the bad guy over and over after he burns them.

Yora

2021-08-03, 05:31 AM

Something I found is that it's impossible what the players consider to be cool and latch on to. You'll never know if any specific NPC will be memorable and interesting to them, even when you think you made someone who looks really good on paper.
Creating amazing big bads and making them stick immediately is very hard, but you've got a lot more chances with their lieutenants. You can have a couple of those and let the players encounter them, and if they really get invested in one of them, that one can become the one that the players will be encountering more often.
A great lieutenant can often work much better than the actual boss. Worked out amazingly for Darth Vader.

Bulhakov

2021-08-03, 03:15 PM

Things that worked in my campaigns:
- although the players assumed it was a single BBEVG I had prepared a stereotypical shadowy cabal of necromancers with an evil plan the players needed to figure out and stop (basically it was an undead wraith/zombie apocalypse the bad guys planned to unleash on kingdoms they were exiled from centuries earlier)
- speaking through undead minions made for interesting chatter with the players, especially post-combat (e.g. communicating through a severed head of a defeated minion)
- once the players tracked the BBEVG I let them deafeat him, only to figure out he definitely wasn't working alone
- the next BBEVG (this time a chick) goes "you killed my brother, now it's personal"
- the next one, "you wounded my beloved, you'll pay" and so on...

Overall I propose a big bad that does not chat with the players directly, but through magical communications (talking corpses, mirrors, animals?), or more mundanely through letters, messengers and minions. Experienced high-level players just have too many tricks at their disposal to get at an opponent if he directly reveals himself.

P.S.Edit: I always find physical quirks and or comparisons to pop-culture figures make for the most memorable NPCs - "the peg-legged dwarf", "the elf with bleeding eyes", "the goth Arwena" "the Danny-davito hobbit"

Melayl

2021-08-03, 05:24 PM

Another way to look at the problem is to find your favorite BBE/antagonist(s) in book/comic/tv/etc. What makes you like them so much or love to hate them so much? What makes them successful in the story?

What about your players' favorite villains? Sample from all of that material, and you'll have a great basis for your top baddie.

Witty Username

2021-08-04, 11:03 PM

I ask my players to make characters for their next game.:smallwink:

Pauly

2021-08-05, 02:54 AM

The recurring part has been dealt with, but to answer the question if what makes a “good villain”, i.e. one the party enjoys being in the same story with.

I read years ago about a likability index for characters in fiction and I find it works for BBEGs. I’ll try to write up what I can from memory.. You don’t need to hit every point, but a solid majority of them is necessary.

It is important to show this in game. You can’t rely on NPCs saying “the BBEG is so [X]” The characters need to see the BBEG do it him or herself.

1) Are they Physically attractive. For villains this is basically “does he look like a badass?”. For TTRPGs this is limited somewhat by the theater of the mind., but aids like a miniature or drawing can help.

2) Are they hard working? People like it when success is earned not given.

3) Are they funny? People like humor. Think Hades in Disney’s Hercukes. You don’t want slapstick or too many gags.

4) Are they intelligent? Again this is something that has to be shown by their clever plans and responses. Not GM fiat of declaring hey the BBeG had a counterplan, or saying he has an INT stat of 20.

5) Are they in control of their emotions? Especially their temper. Think Kyli Ren -v- Darth Vader. Darth Vader executes people who fail to follow the plan, Kylo Ren slaughters stoomptroopers who were unlucky to be in his vicinity when he gets some bad news. If you have a villain like Professor Ratigan in Basil the Great Mouse Detective, it’s OK for the BBEG to lose it and go feral when all his o,ans have been thwarted and defeat stolen from the jaws if victory, but there is some foreshadowing that he does have a temper but he is keeping it under control.

6) Are they competent? Can they do what they set out to achieve? Compare Darth Vader’s plans in Star Wars + basically everything he does should by rights have worked. Admiral Hux’s plan in the Rian Johnson hot garbage film relied on “we have a magic new technology item that poppeed into existence at a plot convenient time”. And can you imagine how long Poe would have lasted if he tried the Bart Simpson prank call?

7’ Are they consistent? Someone who follows a code is more likable. It may be a screwed up code like the Joker,

Easy e

2021-08-09, 05:33 PM

A good BBEG (or character or NPC)needs a "rooting interest". These are parts of their character that makes them worth hoping to succeed.

This could be anything really, but often takes the form of:
1. Is bad, but is surrounded by people much worse. He keeps them in check.
2. He does not kill indiscriminately
3. He helps out the orphanage/animal shelter too!
4. He has a bad background, but lifted himself out of it.

No matter what it is, the BBEG has to have a chance to interact with the PCs either before it is known he is a villain or some other way. If the PCs do not know anything about them, they will never be compelling.

Mutazoia

2021-08-09, 10:09 PM

A smart BBEG never puts himself anywhere near harm's way. He works through trusted lieutenants and bamboozled rubes. If he must take personal action, he does so only after ensuring his own personal safety.

Others have already mentioned simulacrum and illusions, but even something as low-tech (low-magic) as having a minion pretend to be him (think Ironman 3's fake Mandarin) while he passes himself off as a low-level flunky who is quick to flip on his "boss" to save his own ass (or even pretends to be a "good guy" who has been duped by the "BBEG").

Yeah, I know you didn't want to play 4D chess, but you can't really get away from it when you have heroes who can go toe-to-toe with a Dragon and come out on top.

As a related side note:

You may have seen this already (it's been around since the 80s at least (depending on who you believe says they created it)), but this list is always a good read when designing your BBEG (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html).

Calthropstu

2021-08-10, 02:25 PM

The Immortal has you covered!

The Immortal is not evil. He merely has a goal of surviving beyond time itself. There is only one of The Immortal, and yet there are many. The immortal ranges from pathetically weak to nigh unkillable.

Each of The Immortal has a portion of The Immortal's memories. He has lived so long he has forgotten much. Each copy of The Immortal is always on a quest to gain immortality. The Immortal will approach vampires to be turned, seek out lichdom, Even place himself in Stasis. One The Immortal even bound his essence to multiple planes of existence so that The Immortal cannot be killed without destroying the multiverse.

The Immortal is neither male nor female, but at the same time can be either or both. The Immortal can manifest anywhere, in any system.

The fun part is, killing The Immortal does nothing. Because The Immortal is many. But The Immortal can be any level. Eliminating The Immortal is not automatically required to stop him. Usually, his goal will be some artifact which will act as yet another layer of immortality. Stopping him merely consists of eliminating what The Immortal is after.

Stonehead

2021-08-11, 12:34 PM

Ok, how i make good recurring villains.

- They need a motivation. A motivation that the players can learn, understand and emphasize with. This allow the players to think and talk about him, guess his strategies, consider diplomacy etc. even in scenes when he is not actually present.

- Use plots where he is only a side character. Maybe the boss of the week had his backing, maybe he got involved in other peoples conflicts, maybe he is only there to opportunistically exploit the chaos, maybe he usews middlemen. This allows you to have conflics where he has real motivation not to deploy his whole power and which also produce unfinished buissness.

I think the first point here is really important, but I'd add a little more. The villain needs a well defined motivation, and that motivation shouldn't be to defeat the PCs. If the party and the villain are diametrically opposed, the only way for the villain to survive is by defeating the players (making them feel helpless) and then running away for whatever reason. However, if the villain wants to ascend the throne for example, there are plenty of ways for them to encounter the players and leave without either side definitively defeating the other. Just a few examples off the top of my head, the villain could try to marry into the royal family, assassinate everyone ahead of himself in the line of succession, convince the current king to name him an heir, or if all else fails, stage a bloody coup. All but the last of these allow either side to win without killing the other.

Maybe a better way to put it is that the villain's plan needs to be accomplishable in stages, and those stages shouldn't spell death for either side.

Stonehead

2021-08-11, 12:42 PM

4) Are they intelligent? Again this is something that has to be shown by their clever plans and responses. Not GM fiat of declaring hey the BBeG had a counterplan, or saying he has an INT stat of 20.

I think it's worth pointing out that the opposite can be true too. Incredibly stupid characters are usually very likeable. As an example, which of these two characters was more endearing? https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2824823964/6e95a63ffdee9189caf60090cf87d524_400x400.jpeg

Pauly

2021-08-11, 05:32 PM

I think it's worth pointing out that the opposite can be true too. Incredibly stupid characters are usually very likeable. As an example, which of these two characters was more endearing? https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2824823964/6e95a63ffdee9189caf60090cf87d524_400x400.jpeg

As I said the lust sn’t meant to ge “tick all boxes”, just tick most boxes.

Kronk is
1) good looking
2) hard working
3) funny
5) in control of his emotion
6) competent at the things he is supposed to be competent at. Incompetent at following complex evil villain instructions doesn’t make him incompetent, because that isn’t his job description.
7) Consistent.

He hits most of the likability factors. And only really misses on one.

Yzma on the other hand only really hits on (4) intelligent.
Her character design isn’t scary or intimidating
She isn’t hard working as she keeps on passing work off onto Kronk, even tasks she knows he isn’t good at. She consistently misses details that a competent villain would notice.
Her jokes fall flat.
Is always losing her temper or on the edge of losing her temper.
Pretty well fails at every task she attempts.
Has a lot of changes of plan. You never really know what she’s going for or why.

And it doesn’t really matter because that movie is the most racist piece of trash that makes Song of the South look like a perfectly fine representation of it’s characters.

Stonehead

2021-08-11, 07:45 PM

It could be that being stupid is an easy shortcut to being funny, but personally I think there's a little more to it. I see the rise of the term 'himbo' as evidence of this.

And besides, I just said I thought it was worth bringing up, no issues with any of the original points.

Xervous

2021-08-12, 09:24 AM

And it doesn’t really matter because that movie is the most racist piece of trash that makes Song of the South look like a perfectly fine representation of it’s characters.

Well that’s a new one. Did this line of thinking stem from 280 characters or 280000?

Max_Killjoy

2021-08-12, 10:05 AM

Man_Over_Game

2021-08-12, 05:53 PM

Well that’s a new one. Did this line of thinking stem from 280 characters or 280000?

I just came back to see what developments happened on my thread. Apparently it is now about Disney movies and racism. Glad to see the internet hard at work.

Xervous

2021-08-13, 07:25 AM

If I was to focus on one key detail that defines the most of Kronk’s adversarial relationship it would be that he’s not explicitly trying to kill Kuzco. Rather than being a Skeletor who directly opposes the protagonist, he is an individual who happens to find himself in conflict with Kuzco. Orcus wants to destroy everything and remake it in undeath. The player characters are generally going to oppose Orcus regardless of circumstances, making Orcus more akin to a natural disaster. The corrupt vizier who would be perfectly happy if the PCs didn’t stick their nose in his business, or if they worked for him? That’s a villain the players earn through their choices. I can throw Orcus on a campaign and it sets the theme. But when players earn their villain it can get personal and memorable.

Stonehead

2021-08-13, 10:49 AM

The only way to ensure that the PCs don't kill a villain is to not put the villain in a position where the PCs could possibly kill them. Things you think will stop the PCs from killing them, shouldn't actually be counted on to keep the villain safe, from social backlash in-setting, to the risk of losing the fight, to escape plans for the villain, to whatever.

First step to a recurring villain to survival.

Surviving to fight another day is only half the equation though. You can only fight another day if you actually fought the first day. It doesn't really feel like a recurring villain if all they do is throw henchmen at the party from the shadows (although I doubt you were suggesting anything that extreme). I think an important part of the recurring villain is actually interacting back-and-forth with the party.

I think you're usually better off just hedging your bets, and accepting when that doesn't work. The dice could always crit, and players always act unexpectedly, but you can account for these things to a certain extent as a dm. Personally, I think it's worth it to let them interact. A villain getting away when it was possible to catch them makes me hate them way more than if it's actually impossible.

The key is to just roll with the punches when your plans don't unfold the way you were expecting. After all, a game about Aladin living as an exile after killing Jaffar on sight sounds pretty fun too.

Calthropstu

2021-08-13, 12:16 PM

Surviving to fight another day is only half the equation though. You can only fight another day if you actually fought the first day. It doesn't really feel like a recurring villain if all they do is throw henchmen at the party from the shadows (although I doubt you were suggesting anything that extreme). I think an important part of the recurring villain is actually interacting back-and-forth with the party.

I think you're usually better off just hedging your bets, and accepting when that doesn't work. The dice could always crit, and players always act unexpectedly, but you can account for these things to a certain extent as a dm. Personally, I think it's worth it to let them interact. A villain getting away when it was possible to catch them makes me hate them way more than if it's actually impossible.

The key is to just roll with the punches when your plans don't unfold the way you were expecting. After all, a game about Aladin living as an exile after killing Jaffar on sight sounds pretty fun too.

Beware the awakened raven druid with a summon 5 scroll.

Pauly

2021-08-13, 03:56 PM

Well that’s a new one. Did this line of thinking stem from 280 characters or 280000?

This will take some time to unpack.

1) Character names.
Cuzco is a place not a person. {Scrubbed}.
Pacha is the name of the Earth Goddess. Wrong gender and not a person’s name.
Chicha (Pacha’s wife) translates as beer or beverage.
Kronk. Is European (specifically Germanic) sounding.
Yzma. Sounds nothing like Quechua, Aymara or Nazca the three main languages used in the {Scrubbed}. It sounds more like {Scrubbed} or some other Central American language. {Scrubbed}
Not a single major character has a name that is culturally correct.

2) Pacha’s character design.
Kronk and Cuzco are actually not too bad. Yzma, I have no idea what she’s supposed to be, but whatever it is, it ain’t {Scrubbed}.
Pacha is meant to be a quechua. Quechua are short and stocky, not big and fat. Quechua gave small rounded noses, not aquiline noses. Quechua skin coloring is brown with rosy cheeks, the rosiness coming from altitude. There is a whole school of art known as the Cuzco school, the defining characteristic of which is depicting {Scrubbed}figures with quechua coloring. The Quechua personality is typified by cheerfulness in the face of adversity, not sighing and moaning acceptance.
The residents if the altiplano have a highly developed textiles industry. The signature if which is brightly colored and many colored cloths with intricate designs.
Pacha does not look like the people he comes from. He doesn’t act like the people he comes from. He doesn’t dress like the people he comes from.

3) When Kronk and Yzma go to Pacha’s village.
Pacha’s kids hit them as piñatas.{Scrubbed}
4) The inciting incident.
Pacha receives a summons on paper. The {Scrubbed}did not have paper or a written language. Famously they had quipus.
The Emperor’s summer place is a real place. I’ve been there. It is high in the mountains to avoid heat. Not down in the jungle where it’s hotter and humid.

5) After Cuzco is turned into a llama.
He is out in Pacha’s wagon which rolls away.
{Scrubbed}never developed the wheel.
Llamas are famous for sitting down and stubbornly refusing to move the instant they are overloaded by just 1 gram, let alone the weight of another llama.

6) The animals
Jaguars are spotted like leopards not black like panthers.
Llama is pronounced “Yama”.
Grey squirrels do not exist in Peru. However there are 2 famous rodents from there the cuy (better known in English as the guinea pig) and the capybara.
Peru has caymans and crocodiles, not alligators. In any event they live in the Amazonia, not the altiplano where the Incas had their capital.

7) The scenery.
The grass is the wrong color, it should be more khaki than green.
The mountains are the wrong shape. They should be jagged not smooth.
{Scrubbed}architecture is famously for close fitting intricately and precisely cut stonework. None of which is seen.
Pacha’s village has free standing houses and open fields. {Scrubbed}villages had houses close up against each other like Italian or Spanish villages and are famous for terraced fields.
Pacha’s house gas wooden shelves on the walls. Inca houses used alcoves.

I could go on, but I hope this gives you a small idea of just how wrongly wrong and offensive this movie is.
To make it worse everything they got wrong in The Emperor’s New Groove they got right in Saludos Amigos in 1942.

Seclora

2021-08-13, 06:55 PM

This will take some time to unpack.

1) Character names.
Cuzco is a place not a person. It would be like having “Empower Tokyo” of Japan or “Czar Moscow” of Russia.
Pacha is the name of the Earth Goddess. Wrong gender and not a person’s namr.
Chicha (Pacha’s wife) translates as beer or beverage.
Kronk. Is European (specifically Germanic) sounding.
Yzma. Sounds nothing like Quechua, Aymara or Nazca the three main languages used in the Inca Empire. It sounds more like Aztec, Tlascalan or some other Central American language. But hey, everything south of the Rio Grande is just one culture.
Not a single major character has a name that is culturally correct.

Pacha’s character design.
Kronk and Cuzco are actually not too bad. Yzma, I have no idea what she’s suppised to be, but whatever it is, it ain’t Inca.
Pacha is meant to be a quechua. Quechua are short and stocky, not big and fat. Quechua gave small rounded noses, not aquiline noses. Quechua skin coloring is brown with rosy cheeks, the rosiness coming from altitude. There is a whole school of art known as the Cuzco school, the defining characteristic of which is depicting biblical figures with quechua coloring. The Quechua personality is typified by cheerfulness in the face of adversity, not sighing and moaning acceptance.
The residents if the altiplano have a highly developed textiles industry. The signature if which is brightly colored and many colored cloths with intricate designs.
Pacha does not look like the people he comes from. He doesn’t act like the peopke ge comes from. He doesn’t dress like the people he comes from.

When Kronk and Yzma go to Pacha’s village.
Pacha’s kids hit them as piñatas. A Mexican tradition. But hey it’s fine because everything south if the Rio Grande is just one culture.

The inciting incident.
Pacha receives a summons on paper. The Incas did not have paper or a written language. Famously they had quipus.
The Emperor’s summer place is a real place. I’ve been tgere. It is high in the mountains to avoid heat. Not down in the jungle where it’s hotter and humid.

After Cuzco is turned into a llama.
He is out in Pacha’s wagon which rolls away.
Incas never developed the wheel.
Llamas are famous for sitting down and stubbornly refusing to move the instant they are overloaded by just 1 gram, let alone the weight of another llama.

The animals
Jaguars are spotted like leopards not black like panthers.
Llama is pronounced “Yama”.
Grey squirrels do not exist in Peru. However there are 2 famous rodents from there the cuy (better known in English as the guinea pig) and the capybara.
Peru has caymans and crocodiles, not alligators. In any event they oive in the hungoes, not the altiplano where the Incas had their capital.

The scenery.
The grass is the wrong color, it should be more khaki than green.
The mountains are the wrong shape. They should be jagged not smooth.
Inca architecture is famously for close fitting intricately and precisely cut stonework. None of which is seen.
Pacha’s village has free standing houses and open fields. Inca villages had houses close up against each other like Italian or Spanish villages and are famous for terraced fields.
Pacha’s house gas wooden shelves on the walls. Inca houses used alcoves.

I could go on, but I hope this gives you a small idea of just how wrongly wrong and offensive this movie is.
To make it worse everything they got wrong in The Emperor’s New Groove they got right in Saludos Amigos in 1942.

And that right there is why it's not okay. If you got it right in the past, in a time where nobody expected you to do it right, it's pretty stupid looking when you do it wrong now.

Also, Izma is an ArabicUrdu name meaning Greatness or High/Esteemed Position. I don't know if they're related, but it would fit the character. Very much not Inca though.

Pauly

2021-08-13, 08:26 PM

And that right there is why it's not okay. If you got it right in the past, in a time where nobody expected you to do it right, it's pretty stupid looking when you do it wrong now.

Also, Izma is an ArabicUrdu name meaning Greatness or High/Esteemed Position. I don't know if they're related, but it would fit the character. Very much not Inca though.

Thanks for that. I’ve fixed most of the typos. Very useful information about Izma, which fits the character perfectly, which makes me think it isn’t a coincidence.

Max_Killjoy

2021-08-14, 01:04 AM

The making of that movie was a mess.

Beyond that, probably also entirely off topic for the thread and forum.

https://www.vulture.com/article/an-oral-history-of-disney-the-emperors-new-groove.html
https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/24/21301603/the-emperors-new-groove-streaming-disney-david-spade-john-goodman-eartha-kitt

Xervous

2021-08-16, 07:05 AM

Tanarii

2021-08-16, 12:46 PM

Instead of finding a way for a villain to survive an attack from the heroes, find a way to make killing the villain a failure condition. Think about why Superman doesn’t just kill Lex Luthor.

Maybe the villain is a corrupt political figure protected by plausible deniability and the rule of law? Maybe the villain is a brilliant sage that the heroes need to acquire an alchemical formula from? Maybe the villain is a Githzerai Anarch responsible for keeping an entire settlement in Limbo hospitable?

If the villain has legal protection, the heroes need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the villain is responsible for his crimes. If the villain is essential, the heroes have to find a way to replace the villain. If the villain has an amazing reputation, the heroes need to find a way to discredit them. These scenarios might be more interesting than assassination.

The classic answer is the players know who the big bad is, but he's a trusted confidant of the king and therefore untouchable until they can out him.
I don't use intentionally recurring BBEG exactly because players will often totally ignore reasons rational people in the real world wouldn't just stab a guy.

And not only that, for a certain kind of player, they're totally justified in their own minds that it was the heroic thing to do. Because in books and movies, that's what "true heroes" d9. Stab the evil guy even though they'll have to pay consequences.

Calthropstu

2021-08-16, 02:53 PM

I don't use intentionally recurring BBEG exactly because players will often totally ignore reasons rational people in the real world wouldn't just stab a guy.

And not only that, for a certain kind of player, they're totally justified in their own minds that it was the heroic thing to do. Because in books and movies, that's what "true heroes" d9. Stab the evil guy even though they'll have to pay consequences.

The paladin suddenly loses his powers, land held by the party is confiscated and an arrest warrant has been issued. Guards will be at your base in moments. What do you do?

At that point, the campaign switches from being heroic to "escape the kingdom with your lives" and turns into murderhobo territory. You can try and salvage it by allowing the pcs to prove guilt after the fact, but that could be difficult.

vasilidor

2021-08-16, 03:47 PM

live action Mulan was an insult to anyone who knows anything about tactics and warfare.

Back on topic: it is ok for your players to hate your big bad and want them dead. gives them motivation to see the campaign through.

Tanarii

2021-08-16, 05:11 PM

The paladin suddenly loses his powers, land held by the party is confiscated and an arrest warrant has been issued. Guards will be at your base in moments. What do you do?

At that point, the campaign switches from being heroic to "escape the kingdom with your lives" and turns into murderhobo territory. You can try and salvage it by allowing the pcs to prove guilt after the fact, but that could be difficult.
And yet despite that, there are plenty of players that will still stab a bad guy, and have fun playing the resulting fallout. Some of them still heroes in their own mind all the while.

Calthropstu

2021-08-16, 10:53 PM

And yet despite that, there are plenty of players that will still stab a bad guy, and have fun playing the resulting fallout. Some of them still heroes in their own mind all the while.

As his coconspirators pick up the pieces,and carry the plan to fruition without him, ultimately resulting in gis ultimate victory. Because what is a bbeg without a backup plan.

StragaSevera

2021-08-17, 01:28 PM

Hmm, about this problem - "How to ensure PCs don't just kill a Big Bad"... I have an idea. They don't kill him because he is dead.
No, not "dead", like a lich, death knight or any other undead - literally dead. Somebody like a Cave Johnson from Portal 2, or Girard Draketooth turned up to eleven. A person who left a lot of plans and pre-recorded messages and then died.
You cannot do anything to him - you are just destroying an "illusion stone" left by a long time ago. You need to disrupt his plans, using the fact that he is, well, dead, and cannot adjust them to the crazy tactics that PCs are inventing - the living pawns and minor agents are capable of deviating from his plans, but they lack the complex information that he had.

Of course, PCs may try to somehow ressurrect him to interrogate him (or something equally as stupid and cool), but in general... I think such a plot would be very interesting, because personally, I was hugely emotionally involved in the Cave Johnson despite him being a posthumous character =-)

(And, about the "Disney racism" discussion - it saddens me to see how widespread the presumption of guilt is nowadays).

Mutazoia

2021-08-21, 06:28 PM

Witty Username

2021-08-21, 09:54 PM

I would try to make Big Bads that can be negotiated with:
Villains with motivations and goals, can sometimes end up with the party and the villain having aligned goals or non-conflicting goals. This can make for a game where the villain is more like an NPC until the party and the villain reach a breaking point where their conflicts must be resolved with violence.

Stonehead

2021-08-22, 02:48 PM

You really shouldn't have the PCs fight the BBEG over and over. That just turns your BBEG into a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Think about it.

Reaching to my "Deck of Grognard Things" I'll draw the "Thundercats" card.

The BBEG of the series was Mum-Ra, a sorcerer bent on world domination and destroying the titular heroes. Every week he would be in the middle of some dastardly plan and Lion-o would show up to stop him. Mum-Ra would fight for a bit, then transform into a super mummy when things stopped going his way. Then Lion-o would stroke his sword to make it bigger, summon the rest of the party and they would kick his ass. Every week you knew Mum-Ra was going to get his bony butt kicked (or every other week if it was a two-part episode). He was neither scary nor intimidating. The Thundercats didn't even take him seriously. The comic relief character was the only one who was afraid of him, but then he was afraid of his own shadow half the time.

Now, if this is the feeling you are going for in your campaign, by all means, keep throwing your BBEG at your party and having his ass handed to him. But your players won't be taking him seriously for very long. How can they? Every time he shows up they curb-stomp him and he runs off with his tail (actual or metaphorical) between his legs. How can you be expected to fear someone that you beat up on a weekly basis?

Your BBEG should show up once, near the start of your campaign, and almost TPK your PCs before they manage to run away (or some Deus Ex Machina such as a collapsing bridge saves their keisters).

After that, depending on the plot of your campaign he should either be ignoring them until they gain enough power (levels) to become an actual threat or constantly chasing them (while they barely stay ahead of him) as they try to keep the MacGuffin out of his hands, for example. But they should never fight him (seriously) until they are capable of taking him down, and he shouldn't be putting in any personal appearances until that time.

I think one key point about the Thundercats example, is that the big bad does zero lasting damage (or so it seems based on your post, that show was before my time). If the BBEG's encounters leave the players worse off than they found him, they'll pretty quickly come to react to his coming. Whether that's fear or anger depends on the group. Importantly, HP damage doesn't count as worse-off, unless you're playing a system with lasting injuries, which no dungeon-fantasy game is.

The BBEG needs to kill NPCs, or steal/destroy equipment, or level cities. It's tough to give system agnostic advice here, because what is lasting and what is transient really depends on the system. In GURPS, hp damage would probably take weeks to heal, so that's probably enough. In DnD, even severed limbs can be grown back, so you kind of need to target their wallets.

One thing that does transcend system is people and places the characters actually care about, but you have to be careful there. If you destroy everything the PCs start to care about, they usually respond by stopping caring about anything, not with repeated emotional reactions.

Bohandas

2021-08-24, 11:28 AM

I’ll keep my vote on the 280 characters. Inaccurate butchering of cultures filtered through modern concepts? Sure, that’s the Disney MO. Recent live action Mulan fell short of expectations in China because they blended styles and fashions from different regions and time periods. Shoddy work? For certain. But to have such a low bar as “things I find disagreeable” for racist nothing short of an historically accurate representation would be acceptable. SotS pushed harmful stereotypes and messages, New Groove is merely incompetence being mistaken for malevolence.

I'm not sure I'd even call it incompetence, IIRC as the setting of that movie is rather incidental to the plot and so it doesn't particularly behoove them to get it right anyway. It's a little bit like an architect complaining that the buildings painted on the backdrop at a play don't look structurally sound

Mutazoia

2021-08-25, 01:06 AM

I think one key point about the Thundercats example, is that the big bad does zero lasting damage (or so it seems based on your post, that show was before my time). If the BBEG's encounters leave the players worse off than they found him, they'll pretty quickly come to react to his coming. Whether that's fear or anger depends on the group. Importantly, HP damage doesn't count as worse-off, unless you're playing a system with lasting injuries, which no dungeon-fantasy game is.

The BBEG needs to kill NPCs, or steal/destroy equipment, or level cities. It's tough to give system agnostic advice here, because what is lasting and what is transient really depends on the system. In GURPS, hp damage would probably take weeks to heal, so that's probably enough. In DnD, even severed limbs can be grown back, so you kind of need to target their wallets.

One thing that does transcend system is people and places the characters actually care about, but you have to be careful there. If you destroy everything the PCs start to care about, they usually respond by stopping caring about anything, not with repeated emotional reactions.

The whole point is that if your PCs are constantly beating up your BBEG and making him run away, he's not going to be very scary for long.

Look at Darth Vader. In the original trilogy, the heroes run from him and watch him kill Obi-Wan as they try to escape. The first time Luke actually tries to fight him, he gets his ass beat and comes away minus a hand. It's not until the very last movie (the end of the campaign) that Vader can be confronted directly.

If, in every movie, they consistently beat the snot out of Vader and he ran for the hills, he wouldn't be the menacing figure he is seen as today. He would be just like General Hux. A sad, sorry little beeyotch.

Oliver

2021-08-25, 05:58 AM

From my experience, the best Vilains and Big Bad Guys Tm are... created by the actions of the PCs.

Directly or indirectly.

-Ok, so you get rid of this local death cults wich assassinate random peoples for apparently poor/no reasons ?

And if regular sacrifices were necessary to prevent the doors to hell to re-open (again) ?

-You see this little orc kid screaming vengeance on the corpse of his very dead father ?

Now, you don't see him. Because he is following you, learning from you, studying your vulnerabilities... He will come back to the remains of his tribe, rich of a unique experience, wll rally other clans, make alliances with local monsters and uncanny powers...

You won't see again him before it's too late.

- You you have been paid to find this cursed relic for a sinister magican

=> Will you keep it for you, gaining a very pissed off, well connected and dreadly powerfull mage as an ennemy ?

=> Of will you give it back for an effty sum. Enjoy your gain quickly, as he turns the sky black, hide the sun, , invoque Great Old ones, and take the soul of every first born in the country.

Of course, you have noticed that the said cursed relic had a peculiar vulnerability, but your ennemy is now even more dreadly powerfull...

Not only is it funnier that way, but PCs to handle way more personally vilains, people, monsters or consequences that are directly linked to THEM.

So, there's nothing wrong with the mustache twingling vilain abducting the Princess trope , but things get wayyyyy more interesting if the said princess is your actual girlfriend , and if the mustache guy is your rival since 6 scenario.

(or your unofficial mustachio lover, as PC may have various tastes ).

Bohandas

2021-08-25, 02:05 PM

A good way to create a villain whose face you just want to smash in is to make them sanctimonious, like the evil politician from Elysium or Col.Jessup from A Few Good Men or the slaver guy from the Fallout 3 DLC The Pitt

Calthropstu

2021-08-25, 03:15 PM

Stonehead

2021-08-27, 09:45 AM

The whole point is that if your PCs are constantly beating up your BBEG and making him run away, he's not going to be very scary for long.

Look at Darth Vader. In the original trilogy, the heroes run from him and watch him kill Obi-Wan as they try to escape. The first time Luke actually tries to fight him, he gets his ass beat and comes away minus a hand. It's not until the very last movie (the end of the campaign) that Vader can be confronted directly.

If, in every movie, they consistently beat the snot out of Vader and he ran for the hills, he wouldn't be the menacing figure he is seen as today. He would be just like General Hux. A sad, sorry little beeyotch.

Yeah, exactly, who's the one running away makes a huge difference in the tone of the villain.

I will say though, player characters are (in my experience at least) the single least likely entities to flee from combat. If you still want an intimidating villain, there are ways to separate characters that involve neither running away. Maybe his plan is time sensitive, and he doesn't have time to deal with the PCs, he created a portal that's closing quickly. Or maybe he delegates the party to one of his underlings, bosses love to delegate.

-Ok, so you get rid of this local death cults wich assassinate random peoples for apparently poor/no reasons ?

And if regular sacrifices were necessary to prevent the doors to hell to re-open (again) ?

-You see this little orc kid screaming vengeance on the corpse of his very dead father ?

Now, you don't see him. Because he is following you, learning from you, studying your vulnerabilities... He will come back to the remains of his tribe, rich of a unique experience, wll rally other clans, make alliances with local monsters and uncanny powers...

You won't see again him before it's too late.

- You you have been paid to find this cursed relic for a sinister magican

=> Will you keep it for you, gaining a very pissed off, well connected and dreadly powerfull mage as an ennemy ?

=> Of will you give it back for an effty sum. Enjoy your gain quickly, as he turns the sky black, hide the sun, , invoque Great Old ones, and take the soul of every first born in the country.

I'd be careful with these, it seems really easy for any of them to feel like a bait and switch "gotcha" moment. If the first quest is to go fight some orks who kidnapped some farmers, the players are going to go along with it mostly out of genre expectations and not wanting to be disruptive. If it's presented to them as a world where you're expected to kill orks, they're going to go around killing orks. It's pretty unsatisfying then to pull the "Hah! You didn't think about the consequences of your actions!" card. The players followed your plot hook to be nice to the dm and go along with the story you prepared, I don't think it's a good idea to routinely punish them for doing that.

It doesn't feel like a "You (the characters) fell into my (the ork's) trap" and more like a "You (the players) fell into my (the dm's) trap".

Bohandas

2021-08-29, 02:34 AM

I mean, the real solution to that last scenario is to hand the artifact over and then double cross the villain and take the artifact back using weapons purchased with the reward money

Calthropstu

2021-08-29, 06:19 PM

HidesHisEyes

2021-09-19, 11:09 AM

It may well have been mentioned already, but check out Justin Alexander’s stuff on “the principles of RPG villainy”:

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/36383/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots-you-will-rue-this-day-heroes-the-principles-of-rpg-villainy

It boils down to two crucial points:

1) Don’t plan a “BBEG” for your campaign from the start. Instead throw in a ton of villains. The PCs will kill or otherwise deal with most of them. Whoever survives gets to keep causing problems for the party and organically becomes the BBEG.

2) More relevant to OP’s question: Find ways for the villain to threaten the PCs and the things they care about from afar. They can send their agents after the PCs, they can wreak havoc in the world, burning down villages, killing important NPCs, turning people against the party and so on.

Especially with respect to the first point, it’s important to understand that this approach to villains fits into a broader approach to GMing in general that strictly forbids planning any kind of plot. If you’re wedded to the idea of the GM as storyteller, crafting a narrative in advance and leading the players through it, you will need to find another solution for your villain.

And on the Darth Vader subject, Justin Alexander uses him in an example of his principles, asking what would have happened if Vader had been killed in the first half of the first film. And the answer is that Peter Cushing’s character would have taken over as the big villain, being fanatically anti-Jedi and embodying an ideal of fascist bureaucracy as the ultimate form of power instead of the dark side of the force. You would have a completely different story. Would he be a less iconic villain than Vader? Yes, almost certainly, but he would have emerged as the villain organically because of the players’ actions, and that’s the magic of RPGs.

HidesHisEyes

2021-09-19, 11:17 AM

I'd be careful with these, it seems really easy for any of them to feel like a bait and switch "gotcha" moment. If the first quest is to go fight some orks who kidnapped some farmers, the players are going to go along with it mostly out of genre expectations and not wanting to be disruptive. If it's presented to them as a world where you're expected to kill orks, they're going to go around killing orks. It's pretty unsatisfying then to pull the "Hah! You didn't think about the consequences of your actions!" card. The players followed your plot hook to be nice to the dm and go along with the story you prepared, I don't think it's a good idea to routinely punish them for doing that.

It doesn't feel like a "You (the characters) fell into my (the ork's) trap" and more like a "You (the players) fell into my (the dm's) trap".

I think this problem only exists if your group expects you to expect them to go along with your campaign. If you don’t have a pre-existing campaign and instead make it very clear from the outset that “the campaign” is simply what happens at the table, then the expectation that there are things they’re “supposed to do” goes away, and players will start to respect the consequences of their actions. This is a holistic approach to playing an RPG though, you can’t fake it or only include one aspect of it.

(Sorry for the double post, just came back to this site for the first time in years and I’m trying to get the hang of how forums work again).

Tanarii

2021-09-19, 01:27 PM

As his coconspirators pick up the pieces,and carry the plan to fruition without him, ultimately resulting in gis ultimate victory. Because what is a bbeg without a backup plan.
I agree there are, or at least should be, consequences for PC actions. It's just that there are a lot of players that don't think them through, and have been thoroughly trained by movies and books to think that stabbing the bad guys is the best solution, even if it's actually digging them into a bigger hole. Piling on excessive and unlikely consequences isn't the solution, unless you're trying to railroad them into a 'plot'. Assuming this wasn't just a glib answer to get in the last word.

HidesHisEyes

2021-09-20, 02:10 AM

I agree there are, or at least should be, consequences for PC actions. It's just that there are a lot of players that don't think them through, and have been thoroughly trained by movies and books to think that stabbing the bad guys is the best solution, even if it's actually digging them into a bigger hole. Piling on excessive and unlikely consequences isn't the solution, unless you're trying to railroad them into a 'plot'. Assuming this wasn't just a glib answer to get in the last word.

I think as long as you’re *not* trying to railroad them into a plot, there’s no need to pile on tons of contrived consequences with the intention of, like, teaching them a lesson. You just introduce the consequences that seem natural and right for the campaign. If the players understand that it’s not a railroad situation they will intuitively get what’s going on, in my experience.

In a railroad campaign, the campaign is already there in your notebook/Google doc/published product, and any consequences of the players’ actions are this external thing that you’re adding in, which can feel frustrating because it’s getting in the way of doing what you’re supposed to be doing (ie following that railroad). But in a non-railroad campaign the consequences of the players’ actions just *are* the campaign, and dealing with them *is* what they’re supposed to be doing.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-20, 03:43 PM

D&D's weirdness cuts both ways. If your band of murderhobos slays someone important in an extralegal assassination, there's nothing stopping the crown/church/organization from ponying up diamonds, casting Raise Dead, and putting the villain on the witness stand of a murder trial.

If death isn't always permanent, then just killing someone isn't really a solution. Which is why I dismembered the corpse of, and burned in a hot fire, my nemesis in a recent campaign. (We are not sure if True Resurrection even works in this world ...)

I think the first point here is really important, but I'd add a little more. The villain needs a well defined motivation, and that motivation shouldn't be to defeat the PCs. Our Tier 3 campaign has that structure: BBEG wants to ascend to god hood / demigod hood. And we are trying to stop them.

Maybe a better way to put it is that the villain's plan needs to be accomplishable in stages, and those stages shouldn't spell death for either side. And PC failure needs to be possible.

First step to a recurring villain to survival. D&D provides this with a liche and their freaking hard to find phylacteries. :smallyuk: (We just fought the same lich for the third time, and now her boss decided to off her ... and to destroy her phylactery).

If I was to focus on one key detail that defines the most of Kronk’s adversarial relationship it would be that he’s not explicitly trying to kill Kuzco. Rather than being a Skeletor who directly opposes the protagonist, he is an individual who happens to find himself in conflict with Kuzco. Orcus wants to destroy everything and remake it in undeath. The player characters are generally going to oppose Orcus regardless of circumstances, making Orcus more akin to a natural disaster. The corrupt vizier who would be perfectly happy if the PCs didn’t stick their nose in his business, or if they worked for him? That’s a villain the players earn through their choices. I can throw Orcus on a campaign and it sets the theme. But when players earn their villain it can get personal and memorable.

live action Mulan was an insult to anyone who knows anything about tactics and warfare. Only if they were promised a movie about tactics and warfare. Which they were not. They were offered a fairy tale/legend about a magical warrior. (Or a warrior who has/had/developed magical powers).

You really shouldn't have the PCs fight the BBEG over and over. That just turns your BBEG into a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Think about it. Oddly enough, the lich I mention further up after we beat her the first, and second times took on a little bit of that character, as regards the obscene phone calls sendings we kept getting from her, threatening to kill us and our little dog too.

Your BBEG should show up once, near the start of your campaign, and almost TPK your PCs before they manage to run away (or some Deus Ex Machina such as a collapsing bridge saves their keisters). That's one way to introduce them.

But they should never fight him (seriously) until they are capable of taking him down, and he shouldn't be putting in any personal appearances until that time. Mulls over the problems in Curse of Strahd ... :smallfrown:

I would try to make Big Bads that can be negotiated with:
Villains with motivations and goals, can sometimes end up with the party and the villain having aligned goals or non-conflicting goals. . This is neat when it can be pulled off.

It's a little bit like an architect complaining that the buildings painted on the backdrop at a play don't look structurally sound That made me smile.

Tanarii

2021-09-20, 07:21 PM

I think as long as you’re *not* trying to railroad them into a plot, there’s no need to pile on tons of contrived consequences with the intention of, like, teaching them a lesson. You just introduce the consequences that seem natural and right for the campaign. If the players understand that it’s not a railroad situation they will intuitively get what’s going on, in my experience.
Completely agree that consequences are not a punishment.

The feeling I was getting from the response was that these weren't natural consequences. They were something being created on the spur, with the intent to punish the players, for being totally not nice 'heroes', just like the style of many movies and books.

But if I'm way off base, and what don't seen like natural consequences to me are fully natural consequences at another table ... then I'm way off base.

Either that or my dislike of the internet rabbit hole of "what ifs" scenario chains is making me see things that aren't there :smallamused:

HidesHisEyes

2021-09-21, 01:16 AM

Completely agree that consequences are not a punishment.

The feeling I was getting from the response was that these weren't natural consequences. They were something being created on the spur, with the intent to punish the players, for being totally not nice 'heroes', just like the style of many movies and books.

But if I'm way off base, and what don't seen like natural consequences to me are fully natural consequences at another table ... then I'm way off base.

Either that or my dislike of the internet rabbit hole of "what ifs" scenario chains is making me see things that aren't there :smallamused:

Yeah I see what you mean. I think the examples people have listed in this thread seem unnatural because they are, because they’re examples in a forum thread. Hopefully in the context of a real campaign they’re just part of the tapestry, so to speak, and don’t feel like gotchas.

Bohandas

2021-09-21, 01:36 AM

This will take some time to unpack.

1) Character names.
Cuzco is a place not a person.

Do you also take issue with Indiana Jones?

EDIT:
or better yet, here's some real names of real people you may have heard of: Cuba Gooding Jr., Georgia O'Keefe, China Miéville, Denzel Washington...

Stonehead

2021-09-21, 10:37 AM

I think this problem only exists if your group expects you to expect them to go along with your campaign. If you don’t have a pre-existing campaign and instead make it very clear from the outset that “the campaign” is simply what happens at the table, then the expectation that there are things they’re “supposed to do” goes away, and players will start to respect the consequences of their actions. This is a holistic approach to playing an RPG though, you can’t fake it or only include one aspect of it.

(Sorry for the double post, just came back to this site for the first time in years and I’m trying to get the hang of how forums work again).

I would disagree, regardless of playstyle, almost everyone still comes into the game with genre expectations. No matter how sandboxy your campaign is, no matter how few long-term plans you prepare, your average player is still going to assume it's ok to kill orcs. When you break expectations like that, it should be done ahead of time, not as surprise consequences for player actions. And originally, my point was that you should be extra careful in these situations, not that they should never be done.

I will agree that you have to be consistent. If in session 1, orcs are mindless combat fodder, but in session 2 are an oppressed outgroup, you've ruined the consistency of your game world.

Yeah I see what you mean. I think the examples people have listed in this thread seem unnatural because they are, because they’re examples in a forum thread. Hopefully in the context of a real campaign they’re just part of the tapestry, so to speak, and don’t feel like gotchas.

That's probably true. Still, I think it's worth pointing out that it's easy to make players upset if you try something like this and fail.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-21, 10:41 AM

Do you also take issue with Indiana Jones?

EDIT:
or better yet, here's some real names of real people you may have heard of: Cuba Gooding Jr., Georgia O'Keefe, China Miéville, Denzel Washington...
And even Washington Irving. :smallsmile:

A good BBEG: a Planetar (D&D 5e version) served by a Celestial Warlock (NPC warlock, reskin as needed any of the Volo's Warlock NPCs) and a whole bunch of veterans / scouts / soldiers / knights / champions / bards / priests / acolytes (NPCs, I am thinking White Cloaks in Wheel of Time, sort of).
The cult is spreading (something LG belief wise) into new areas via crusade and or other energetic efforts to proselytize in the region where the PCs are / care about.
And this proselytizing coalition doesn't tend to take no for an answer.
A little bit of Robert Jordan's white cloaks, a little bit Reconquista, and a little bit Charlemagne all mixed together among the earthly servants of this Planetar whose own boss is (pick the suitable deity from your world).

HidesHisEyes

2021-09-22, 02:04 AM

I would disagree, regardless of playstyle, almost everyone still comes into the game with genre expectations. No matter how sandboxy your campaign is, no matter how few long-term plans you prepare, your average player is still going to assume it's ok to kill orcs. When you break expectations like that, it should be done ahead of time, not as surprise consequences for player actions. And originally, my point was that you should be extra careful in these situations, not that they should never be done.

I will agree that you have to be consistent. If in session 1, orcs are mindless combat fodder, but in session 2 are an oppressed outgroup, you've ruined the consistency of your game world.

That's probably true. Still, I think it's worth pointing out that it's easy to make players upset if you try something like this and fail.

Sure, players will have expectations of some kind. I do think it’s less of a concern these days that people will automatically assume orcs are cannon fodder, because a lot more people have started playing RPGs and not all have the familiarity with video games and earlier experiences with D&D that we assume more experienced players to have. There’s a bit more of a sense of “it’s interactive storytelling, it could be anything” these days, or at least that’s my impression.

I do think setting expectations in session 0 or before is really important. I just meant that once the game gets going, if everyone’s on the same page, consequences can feel very natural and organic and not like a punishment. But I think we broadly agree about expectations.

Xervous

2021-09-22, 06:44 AM

And even Washington Irving. :smallsmile:

A good BBEG: a Planetar (D&D 5e version) served by a Celestial Warlock (NPC warlock, reskin as needed any of the Volo's Warlock NPCs) and a whole bunch of veterans / scouts / soldiers / knights / champions / bards / priests / acolytes (NPCs, I am thinking White Cloaks in Wheel of Time, sort of).
The cult is spreading (something LG belief wise) into new areas via crusade and or other energetic efforts to proselytize in the region where the PCs are / care about.
And this proselytizing coalition doesn't tend to take no for an answer.
A little bit of Robert Jordan's white cloaks, a little bit Reconquista, and a little bit Charlemagne all mixed together among the earthly servants of this Planetar whose own boss is (pick the suitable deity from your world).

Pelor the Burning Hate!