Need a ruling on Undead Warlock’s lv6 ability

[jaappleton]

Your patron’s powers have a profound effect on your body and magic. You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.

In addition, once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack roll and roll damage against the creature, you can replace the damage type with necrotic damage. While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes.
——
That’s the ability.

Here is my question:

Due to the wording of the final sentence, is ALL my damage were to be Necrotic damage somehow, and I were using Form of Dread, is that additional damage die still limited to once per turn?

[Unoriginal]

Due to the wording of the final sentence, is ALL my damage were to be Necrotic damage somehow, and I were using Form of Dread, is that additional damage die still limited to once per turn?

Yes and yes, in my opinion.

[Kvess]

The effect is capped to “once per each of your turns.” You could convert one of the necrotic damage rolls to… necrotic damage… and add an extra damage die to that one roll.

Starting off with necrotic damage doesn’t appear to have any extra effect.

*Assuming your question was meant to be “if ALL my damage were to be Necrotic damage somehow, and I were using Form of Dread, is that additional damage die still limited to once per turn?”

[jaappleton]

The effect is capped to “once per each of your turns.” You could convert one of the necrotic damage rolls to… necrotic damage… and add an extra damage die to that one roll.

Starting off with necrotic damage doesn’t appear to have any extra effect.

Once per each of my turns I can change the damage to necrotic.

If the final sentence were the beginning of a separate paragraph, would you believe the extra damage to be limited to once per turn?

[bid]

Once per each of my turns I can change the damage to necrotic.

If the final sentence were the beginning of a separate paragraph, would you believe the extra damage to be limited to once per turn?
Is the non "once-per-turn" damage necrotic?

[jaappleton]

Is the non "once-per-turn" damage necrotic?

Let’s try it this way.

If somehow all my Eldritch Blast rays were Necrotic, and I’m in Form of Dread

Is each EB ray 2d10 or is only one of them 2d10?

[bid]

Let’s try it this way.

If somehow all my Eldritch Blast rays were Necrotic, and I’m in Form of Dread

Is each EB ray 2d10 or is only one of them 2d10?
I think so, yes.

It all depends on what meaning "the target" has. Is it the once-per-turn target, or the extra attack target. Which is right depends on how easy it is to write that last sentence unambiguously.

I believe they didn't use "you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage for that attack" because that's not what they meant.

[Kane0]

It says 'the' necrotic damage, not 'all' or 'any', so i would have lumped it in woth the previous line and thus once per turn apply the extra die of necrotic damage to whatever youre changing to necrotic damage

Edit: but the first line im not sure if all the damage should become necrotic or just the original damage of the attack and not any other riders you may have

[Unoriginal]

If the final sentence were the beginning of a separate paragraph, would you believe the extra damage to be limited to once per turn?

I would, personally.

[Kvess]

The first sentence says, “once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack and roll damage against the creature.”

For the sake of argument, let’s say that your Eldritch Blast always deals necrotic damage. Each Eldritch Blast ray is still a separate attack roll, damage roll, and potential hit.

The second sentence reads: “While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes.”

“The target” appears to be the target of the converted attack from the first sentence.

This would lead me to believe the target can only take one additional necrotic damage die, once, on each of your turns. Casting a necrotic Eldritch Blast-like spell wouldn’t change that.

[jaappleton]

The first sentence says, “once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack and roll damage against the creature.”

For the sake of argument, let’s say that your Eldritch Blast always deals necrotic damage. Each Eldritch Blast ray is still a separate attack roll, damage roll, and potential hit.

The second sentence reads: “While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes.”

“The target” appears to be the target of the converted attack from the first sentence.

This would lead me to believe the target can only take one additional necrotic damage die, once, on each of your turns. Casting a necrotic Eldritch Blast-like spell wouldn’t change that.

Ahhh, I see this reasoning.

[da newt]

It is worded poorly, but it seems clear that the intent is once per turn, one extra damage die of necrotic damage. IMO - Interpreting the language in any other way would be trying to force extra out of the feature.

[Rukelnikov]

I think the extra damage is limited to once per round, and here's why.

The sctructure of the text is:


"Your patron's powers have a profound effect on your body and magic. You don't need to eat, drink, or breathe.

In addition, once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack roll and roll damage against the creature, you can replace the damage type with necrotic damage. While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes."


If the intention was for that to apply to all necrotic damage rolls while in FoD, then "While you are..." should be in a separate line:


"Your patron's powers have a profound effect on your body and magic. You don't need to eat, drink, or breathe.

In addition, once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack roll and roll damage against the creature, you can replace the damage type with necrotic damage.

While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes."

[Kvess]

The kicker is extra dice added in this way are not doubled during a critical hit.

[TheMango55]

It's clearly intended to be once per turn because it was notibly changed from the UA where it wasn't once per turn and people found it to be overtuned.


In addition, when you hit a creature with an
attack and roll damage against the creature, you
can replace the damage type with necrotic
damage. While you are using your Form of
Dread, you can roll one additional damage die
when determining the necrotic damage the
target takes

[MrCharlie]

The first sentence says, “once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack and roll damage against the creature.”

For the sake of argument, let’s say that your Eldritch Blast always deals necrotic damage. Each Eldritch Blast ray is still a separate attack roll, damage roll, and potential hit.

The second sentence reads: “While you are using your Form of Dread, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes.”

“The target” appears to be the target of the converted attack from the first sentence.

This would lead me to believe the target can only take one additional necrotic damage die, once, on each of your turns. Casting a necrotic Eldritch Blast-like spell wouldn’t change that.
As a counterpoint, damage inherently has an associated target of that damage.

Either reading appears valid, but I'd say that the "Once per turn, period" interpretation is favored.

[MrCharlie]

The kicker is extra dice added in this way are not doubled during a critical hit.
...Source? That does not appear to follow from the text for critical hits in any way, which double all dice associated with an attack.

[Rukelnikov]

...Source? That does not appear to follow from the text for critical hits in any way, which double all dice associated with an attack.

I think his point is, its not "add an extra die of damage" but instead "you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage", which is similar to the wording of Brutal Critical: "you can roll one additional weapon damage die when determining the extra damage".

I'm not really sure if that's the correct reading or not, I assume the intent is for them to be doubled on a crit, but I can't help but wonder why didn't they go with the "extra damage" wording which is used for every other class feature in the game, sans Brutal Critical. Likely just a case of a non-consistent wording.

[Kvess]

The genie warlock adds extra damage equal to proficiency bonus once on their turn. That feature isn’t dice and can’t be doubled on a Crit. This ability provides roughly equivalent damage.


As a counterpoint, damage inherently has an associated target of that damage.

Either reading appears valid, but I'd say that the "Once per turn, period" interpretation is favored.
Let's assume that's a correct interpretation of the term "target." The sentence still says, "you can roll one additional damage die when determining the necrotic damage the target takes.” The necrotic damage refers to the specific damage inflicted in the previous sentence, and not "necrotic damage" -- in such a way that it would leave the reader open to interpreting it as any or all necrotic damage.

I would say it would be challenging to interpret the extra damage rider in a way where it applies multiple times in a turn.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is each EB ray 2d10 or is only one of them 2d10? Each EB is a separate attack roll. Does that help to clarify how to walk through the rules to get an answer?

once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack roll How many times on your turn, if you cast Eldritch Blast at level 11, do you make an attack roll?

[Gignere]

Even if we agreed with the tortured reading why would any DM in their right minds allow it to apply to every necrotic EB hit?

I mean if you want to play an I win character just ask your DM to give you an I win button. So everytime you use it you win, solo CR 30 creatures at level 1.

[Rukelnikov]

The genie warlock adds extra damage equal to proficiency bonus once on their turn. That feature isn’t dice and can’t be doubled on a Crit. This ability provides roughly equivalent damage.

Genie's Wrath is always on, the extra damage of Grave Touch is only applied while you are in your Form of Dread, if we were to compare the features on a vacuum (which we shouldn't since they are parts of subclasses), then it would stand to reason that Grave Touch's extra damage should be higher.

[Kvess]

Genie's Wrath is always on, the extra damage of Grave Touch is only applied while you are in your Form of Dread, if we were to compare the features on a vacuum (which we shouldn't since they are parts of subclasses), then it would stand to reason that Grave Touch's extra damage should be higher.
It's an perk to Form of Dread, which in addition to an extra 1d10 points of necrotic damage at Level 6 also provides:


At Level 3: Temporary hit points, fear on your attacks, immunity to the frightened condition;
At Level 10: Immunity to necrotic damage;
At Level 14: Healing half the amount of necrotic damage dealt by the attack.

Do you feel Form of Dread is hurting for another buff, compared to similar subclass effects like Genie's Wrath? Does it need to provide a powerful debuff, give you immunity to Necrotic Damage, and do significantly more damage than any other Warlock?

Why not pair it with a couple levels of Sorcerer (for Quicken) and Fighter (for Action Surge) to do 12d10+12d10+12d6+60 damage in a round? There are consequences to letting it stack like that.

[Rukelnikov]

It's an perk to Form of Dread, which in addition to an extra 1d10 points of necrotic damage at Level 6 also provides:


At Level 3: Temporary hit points, fear on your attacks, immunity to the frightened condition;
At Level 10: Immunity to necrotic damage;
At Level 14: Healing half the amount of necrotic damage dealt by the attack.

Do you feel Form of Dread is hurting for another buff, compared to similar subclass effects like Genie's Wrath? Does it need to provide a powerful debuff, give you immunity to Necrotic Damage, and do significantly more damage than any other Warlock?

Why not pair it with a couple levels of Sorcerer (for Quicken) and Fighter (for Action Surge) to do 12d10+12d10+12d6+60 damage in a round? There are consequences to letting it stack like that.

For starters your comparison is wrong, Genie's Wrath is only a part of Genie's Vessel, so if you are stating the rest of the abilities of Form of Dread, you should also compare it to the rest of the abilities of Genie's Vessel, at the very least, which include a extradimensional apartment. It would be more appropriate to compare it to all the subclass features of Genie 1 and 6, since you listed all the subclass features Undead get, sans the no need for eat, sleep, breath. So we are comparing it to concentration free flight speed, and damage resistance. I think Genie is stronger at 6, and definitely at 14, Limited Wish is quite possibly the best class feature in the game after "Spellcasting".

Second, Sorlock is already the most consistent damage dealer in the game (post lvl ~7), this subclass doesn't change anything, and it wouldn't be 12d10, it would be 5d10, 4d10 "standard" lvl 17, plus 1d10 from the Grave Touch.

A lock 6/Ftr2/Sorc9 would indeed be doing 5d10+4d10+4d10+60, you can add an extra 24d8 to that if concentrating on Spirit Shroud, so... the difference that extra 1d10 would make on crits is completely negligible. Sorlock was extremely powerful from the get go, Spirit Shroud is what made it ridiculous. (YMMV depending on how many slots you can blow per encounter of course, but the baseline spending 2 SP per round is already comparable or better than anyone elses baseline)

Undead is pretty powerful, but no more than Genie, and for sure less disrupting than Hexblade and many of the subs in Tasha's.