Warlock with high STR? Making a Sith.

[Rebecca-47]

EDIT: We are starting at 1st level, point buy!
Though I realize psi warrior is a pretty obvious choice for a "force user," I'd prefer something with a bit more magic to it. ^^
You all are infinitely more helpful, detailed, and attentive than the folks on Reddit. (shocking) Thanks a lot for all your feedback!



This is a repost from Reddit. Contains mild Star Wars Clone Wars/Rebels spoilers.

...

So I'm trying to build a PC that's thematically based on Darth Maul, or possibly Savage Oppress. I don't really care about the double blade, but I do want a heavy melee hitter with decent STR and a bit of mean smitey magic to amp up those weapon attacks. A proper gish. (My most recent long-term characters have been a rogue and a wizard, so I'd like to come back around to a more beefy warrior type for this upcoming campaign.)


For the theme of my character being a pawn to a higher power, I am thinking about multiclassing the Warlock with Vengeance Paladin.

My question is, which one should be my "primary" class, and what Pacts/Patrons fit well with, say, a Greatsword or Glaive user?

I have played a Paladin before, but never a Warlock, and I haven't done a lot of multiclassing in my time so I'm not really sure what my options for build are, especially with the Warlock being such a customizable class. I realize it usually fits better with CHA/DEX, but I was wondering if there are any good CHA/STR builds for this particular multiclass? If not, I might just go for straight Paladin. I'm not crazy about optimization, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with a multiclass if a regular single-class build would work better.

Thematically, this bit of spoilery dialogue serves as inspiration: https://soundcloud.com/mirthfulart/once-i-had-power/

Thanks for reading!

[Mitchellnotes]

As an alternative to paladin, you could do warlock/barbarian. Warlock slots don't provide that much more smiting potential (and you can pick up an invocation to smite with them anyway). Rage gives resistance which pairs well with THP from armor of agathys or from pacts (fiend or undead) and reckless attack pairs well with a str focused character (esp with GWM). Warlocks have a good number of spells that don't require concentration, and you could always drop back and eldritch blast since it is so investment light

[Kvess]

As a Conquest Paladin, you greatly value Charisma — it may be more useful to you than Strength. Charisma is the stat that allows you more reliably frighten enemies and freeze them in place — on top of the standard bonus to saving throws your Aura provides to the party.

A single level in Hexblade grants you the ability to use your Charisma bonus in place of your Dexterity or Strength bonus on attack and damage rolls with a qualifying weapon. This means that instead of Maxing Strength, you could take just enough to allow you to multiclass from Conquest Paladin to Hexblade Warlock. Hexblade grants you spells like Shield and Armor of Agathys — as well as short rest spellslots to power Divine Smite — and if you stick around to Level 3, you can use Pact Weapon to apply Hex Warrior on Polearms.

The bonus action attack on Polearm Master is thematically similar to Darth Maul attacking with both ends of a double lightsaber. As a Paladin, you don’t always get a lot of uses out of your bonus action unless you are casting Smite spells on top of Divine Smite.

Another feat that goes really well with paladins is Elvish Accuracy, which gives you an extra chance to land a critical hit and double your weapon and smite dice. If you want a race that thematically fits Elvish Accuracy and connection to a questionable patron tied to the Hexblade, I would suggest the Shadar-kai.

Since you will be relying on Feats and ASIs, I would suggest Conquest Paladin 4 / Hexblade 4 / Conquest Paladin 8 / Hexblade. You don’t get much after Paladin 7, but the ASI is nice.

[Rebecca-47]

As a Conquest Paladin, you greatly value Charisma — it may be more useful to you than Strength. Charisma is the stat that allows you more reliably frighten enemies and freeze them in place — on top of the standard bonus to saving throws your Aura provides to the party.

I did say Vengeance Paladin, but thank you.

[Kvess]

Apologies! I totally misread that. For Vengeance Paladin, you could go straight Paladin, favouring Strength over Charisma and use Polearm Master to land extra hits for Smite and Hunter’s Mark. Eleven Accuracy is still nice to nab, if you can get it.

Edit: Good catch, Gignere.

[Rerem115]

I've been enjoying a Githyanki Barbarian 2/Psi Warrior X build I saw suggested here a while ago; progression of Barbarian 1 > Fighter 5/6 > Barbarian 2 > Fighter X

Psi Warrior has plenty of magical and pseudo-magical tricks, as well as a a smite effect, and the extra skills and spells from Githyanki is just the icing on the cake. Bonus points for Gith Warrior being one letter removed from Sith Warrior

[solidork]

The Undead Warlock would be pretty fitting for a Darth Maul type character who is supposed to be terrifying to fight against.

What level are you starting as?

Being strength focused means also putting points in Dex or starting in a class that will give you heavy armor proficiency.

[Unoriginal]

This is a repost from Reddit. Contains mild Star Wars Clone Wars/Rebels spoilers.

...

So I'm trying to build a PC that's thematically based on Darth Maul, or possibly Savage Oppress. I don't really care about the double blade, but I do want a heavy melee hitter with decent STR and a bit of mean smitey magic to amp up those weapon attacks. A proper gish. (My most recent long-term characters have been a rogue and a wizard, so I'd like to come back around to a more beefy warrior type for this upcoming campaign.)


For the theme of my character being a pawn to a higher power, I am thinking about multiclassing the Warlock with Vengeance Paladin.

My question is, which one should be my "primary" class, and what Pacts/Patrons fit well with, say, a Greatsword or Glaive user?

I have played a Paladin before, but never a Warlock, and I haven't done a lot of multiclassing in my time so I'm not really sure what my options for build are, especially with the Warlock being such a customizable class. I realize it usually fits better with CHA/DEX, but I was wondering if there are any good CHA/STR builds for this particular multiclass? If not, I might just go for straight Paladin. I'm not crazy about optimization, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with a multiclass if a regular single-class build would work better.

Thematically, this bit of spoilery dialogue serves as inspiration: https://soundcloud.com/mirthfulart/once-i-had-power/

Thanks for reading!

You don't need to multiclass to make a STR Warlock impressive.

Githyanki is the perfect basis for a Sith combatant, giving you greatsword and medium armor proficiency, as well as psionic powers.

Then the Warlock choice is a question of style:

- Celestial Warlock Pact of the Blade, to hit hard (Green Flame Blade with both STR *and* CHA mods to damage starting lvl 6, for example) and be hard to kill (thanks to healing and temporary HPs).

- Fiend Warlock Pact of the Blade, the classic "get temp HPs by killing mooks" warlock, who still hit hard and has many offensive and defensive options.

- Undead Warlock Pact of the Blade, who gets the power to transform into a terrifying, hard to kill and hard-hitting form, while being no slouch without it.

All those combos make for a great gish who benefits from having both herculean strength and circean charisma.



That being said, for Darth Maul I would use a Githyanki Fighter Psi Warrior, possibly starting with 2 levels of Barbarian for the increased resilience and the Reckless Attack.


I've been enjoying a Githyanki Barbarian 2/Psi Warrior X build I saw suggested here a while ago; progression of Barbarian 1 > Fighter 5/6 > Barbarian 2 > Fighter X

Psi Warrior has plenty of magical and pseudo-magical tricks, as well as a a smite effect, and the extra skills and spells from Githyanki is just the icing on the cake. Bonus points for Gith Warrior being one letter removed from Sith Warrior

Plus it really matches Maul's style very well. He was a master at using his aggressive attacks to make his opponents lose their cool and respond in kind, resulting in him being able to dictate the terms of the confrontation to his advantage, and Reckless Attack + Rage + the Psi Warriors options are really good for that.

[Gignere]

Apologies! I totally misread that. For Vengeance Paladin, you could go straight Paladin, favouring Strength over Charisma and use Polearm Master to land extra hits for Smite and Hunter’s Mark. Eleven Accuracy is still nice to nab, if you can get it.

Elven Accuracy does not work with strength builds.

[CMCC]

Making a force user?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623807-The-Force-User-(Jedi-Sith-Kid-in-TLJ-with-Broom)-Build

[RogueJK]

Being strength focused means also putting points in Dex or starting in a class that will give you heavy armor proficiency.

Or, alternately, being a VHuman/CLineage Hexblade who takes the Heavily Armored feat at 1st level. That gets you +1 STR and heavy armor proficiency.

Something like this with Point Buy:
Custom Lineage (Dathomirian) Hexblade 1
STR 15+3 (+2 from race, +1 from racial Heavily Armored feat)
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15
Warlock Skills: Intimidation, Deception
Background Skills: Perception, Athletics
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast (for Sith Lightning ranged backup), Mage Hand (because The Force)
1st Level Spells: Armor of Agathys, Wrathful Smite (for added damage and fear effect)
Wear Heavy Armor and use a Greatsword

Hexblades are the only Warlocks who get Medium Armor proficiency from their subclass, so they're the only ones that could wear Heavy Armor from Level 1 with VHuman/CLineage taking Heavily Armored. But if starting Level 4+, you could do the same with a race that gets racial Martial Weapons and Medium Armor (like Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf) and any other Warlock subclass, just taking the Heavily Armored feat as your Level 4 ASI instead.

[Rebecca-47]

The Undead Warlock would be pretty fitting for a Darth Maul type character who is supposed to be terrifying to fight against.

What level are you starting as?

Being strength focused means also putting points in Dex or starting in a class that will give you heavy armor proficiency.

We are starting at lv 1, so thankfully I do have a bit of time to work out this build. ^^

[TheMango55]

Vengeance paladin 6 / Undead warlock X

Use an elf, use the double bladed scimitar, and take the Revenant Blade feat from the Eberron book.

[Deathtongue]

I have played a Paladin before, but never a Warlock, and I haven't done a lot of multiclassing in my time so I'm not really sure what my options for build are, especially with the Warlock being such a customizable class. I realize it usually fits better with CHA/DEX, but I was wondering if there are any good CHA/STR builds for this particular multiclass? If not, I might just go for straight Paladin. I'm not crazy about optimization, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with a multiclass if a regular single-class build would work better.
Single-classed build would probably work better TBH. If you absolutely have to multiclass for aesthetic reasons, a single level of Undead or Hexblade Warlock will do the trick, but with the STR/CHA constraints I would take most if not all of your levels in Paladin. Warlock really isn't bringing anything to the table for your vision other than some spells.

[Greywander]

I replied to you in the warlock guide thread, but I'll crosspost it here in case you don't see it there.


I've been looking to make a STR-heavy melee warlock, but I'm really not sure how to go about it since I've never played this class before. (Possibly a Paladin multiclass?)
Usually, melee locks go Hexblade so they can be SAD, dumping STR and focusing solely on CHA. If you specifically want to be a STR warlock, then look at some of the other patrons and see what they can offer you. Hexblade is pretty strong, but kind of boring.

You're probably going to be taking Pact of the Blade, as this will give you access to Eldritch Smite, Extra Attack, and adding your CHA mod to damage. A paladin split is also an option; if you go 11 levels in paladin then you don't really need Pact of the Blade, since you already get pretty much everything you'd get from bladepact (although, you can use both Divine Smite and Eldritch Smite on the same attack, for maximum nuking). You could also eschew any form of Extra Attack and instead use Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

Either way, you still play much like a paladin, even if you stay full warlock (although EB gives you a very solid ranged option). You get into melee and smite for big damage. Warlock gets much fewer slots, but gets those slots back on a short rest. Double check with the rest of your party to see how many rely on short rests; if they're mostly a long rest party, consider paladin instead, or a paladin-warlock split (commonly called a padlock).

Hmm, you probably want to dip into paladin anyway, specifically starting as a paladin so you can get heavy armor. Otherwise, with just light or medium armor you'd be splitting between STR and DEX. Alternatively, a cleric dip can also get you heavy armor, and can be done after 1st level. You'll already be MAD as a result of needing both STR and CHA, so you won't be able to grab many feats. One feat you might want, though, is Polearm Master, mostly for that BA attack (doesn't work with BB/GFB, though). With either Lifedrinking or Improved Divine Smite, you get to add extra damage to that BA attack as well. Grab a spear or quarterstaff and you can also take the Dueling style and use a shield, for more damage and AC.
Another build you might look at is a sorcadin. Sorcerer gives you spell slots for days so you can smite to your heart's content. You'll also have quite a bit of magic to emulate force powers, and metamagic lets you do some interesting things. Your basic MO would be to quicken a big spell and then use Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade and smite. The SCAG version of BB can be twinned, while the Tasha's version cannot. Most sorcadins seem to be a paladin 2/sorcerer X split, as this gets you heavy armor and smites, while still getting 9th level spells. Other good times to dip out of paladin are 6 and 11 (this applies to padlock builds, too).

I understand if you're set on warlock, I just wanted to offer this in case you hadn't considered it. Warlocks are pretty cool.

[SLOTHRPG95]

[interesting stuff, snipped for length]

Hexblades are the only Warlocks who get Medium Armor proficiency from their subclass, so they're the only ones that could wear Heavy Armor from Level 1 with VHuman/CLineage taking Heavily Armored. But if starting Level 4+, you could do the same with a race that gets racial Martial Weapons and Medium Armor (like Githyanki or Mountain Dwarf) and any other Warlock subclass, just taking the Heavily Armored feat as your Level 4 ASI instead.

You can also just stick with medium armor and invest a few points in Dex as a Githyanki/Mountain Dwarf/anyone with Moderately Armored. It's not like it's a bad stat to not dump anyways, what with initiative and the prevalence of Dex saves. Something like 16/14/14/8/10/14 on a Mountain Dwarf is a fine start for a Str-based Warlock and doesn't restrict you to Hexblade. Plus, you can't mix heavy armor with rage and Savage Oppress definitely dipped Barbarian.

[Rukelnikov]

I second the barbarian dip, Maul frequently uses the Rage force power, and Savage Oppress definitely uses Reckless Attacks.

Thing is, while raging you can't cast spells or concentrate, so you should look for features that can emulate the force but are not spells.

As many have said already Psi Warrior is almost explicitly made to resemble a force user.

[Unoriginal]

I think for Savage it would be fitting to go further into Barbarian levels, enough to get the Wild Magic Barbarian subclass.

Is there any synergy between Wild Magic Barbarian and Warlock? You can't Rage and cast at the same time, but it's probably fitting for Savage's style.

[Rukelnikov]

I think for Savage it would be fitting to go further into Barbarian levels, enough to get the Wild Magic Barbarian subclass.

Is there any synergy between Wild Magic Barbarian and Warlock? You can't Rage and cast at the same time, but it's probably fitting for Savage's style.

There's a bit of an anti sinergy in that you may not be able to restore your own slots since you have set level slots, if they are 1st level no prob, but if they are 2nd or 3rd you may roll a 1 in your d3 and not be able to regain a slot, and if they are higher than 3 you just can't.

Besides that, Warlock is a decent caster to pair with Barbarian for Armor of Agathys and some of the utility invocations. However... I don't know if wild magic Barbarian is a good fit for Maul or Opress, some of the wild results may be wildly out of flavor for them, and it would imply a serious lack of control over their powers. I like the flavor of the class, but I don't think its fitting here. Others may think differently though.

[RogueJK]

Is there any synergy between Wild Magic Barbarian and Warlock?

Synergy? No. Barbarians don't get much of anything from a Warlock dip, and Warlocks don't get much of anything from a Barbarian dip. But you could make the combo work in a pinch. You'd just have to plan around only casting a single non-concentration spell in the 1st turn of combat, and then Rage + Melee starting on your 2nd turn. But you could potentially buff yourself with something like Armor of Agathys (or Mirror Image/Blink/etc.) and use your BA to trigger something like Hexblade's Curse or Undead's Form of Dread in the first turn, and then operate as a standard melee Barbarian from there. You'd just be giving up the 1st round's melee damage in exchange for having those buffs for the remainder of the fight.

So it's doable, if that's what you really wanted to do. And since you'd primarily be casting just buff spells, which don't care what your spellcasting stat is, you could even get by with just a 13 CHA for multiclassing purposes. Which is probably good, considering you'd already also need a good STR/DEX/CON as a Barbarian anyway.

[Mitchellnotes]

Synergy? No. Barbarians don't get much of anything from a Warlock dip, and Warlocks don't get much of anything from a Barbarian dip. But you could make the combo work in a pinch. You'd just have to plan around only casting a single non-concentration spell in the 1st turn of combat, and then Rage + Melee starting on your 2nd turn. But you could potentially buff yourself with something like Armor of Agathys (or Mirror Image/Blink/etc.) and use your BA to trigger something like Hexblade's Curse or Undead's Form of Dread in the first turn, and then operate as a standard melee Barbarian from there. You'd just be giving up the 1st round's melee damage in exchange for having those buffs for the remainder of the fight.

So it's doable, if that's what you really wanted to do. And since you'd primarily be casting just buff spells, which don't care what your spellcasting stat is, you could even get by with just a 13 CHA for multiclassing purposes. Which is probably good, considering you'd already also need a good STR/DEX/CON as a Barbarian anyway.

I may have to disagree here. Barbarians have a very good resource that regenerates on a long rest (rage) and warlocks have good abilities that regen on short rests. I mentioned earlier that barbs can really make use of THP, and warlocks have a number of ways to generate these. The trick to this build is flexibility. Assess the fight and decide your strategy. Is it worth it to rage? Is it worth it to concentrate on a spell? Is it better to ho melee? Is it better to stay at range?

When i think of a barb/lock, its generally going to be str/cha focused with great weapon master. Progression would be barb 1, warlock 1-5, barb 2 and then from there you could go up to barb 4, then more warlock or pick up more warlock levels. The end goal would be barb 4/warlock 12 with the rest wherever you'd like. Pact would be blade, but patron and barb subclass really could be anything. Invocations you'd want would be thirsting blade, lifedrinker, eldritch mind, improved pact blade (until picking up a magic weapon), agonizing blast, and could pick up a number of others that could be helpful. ASIs would be gteat weapon master then buffing cha and str. Some examples of builds and synergies:

Bear barbarian/fiend warlock - you'd eventually have resistance to all damage while raging (pick up psychic resist from fiend), felling foes gives thp which is doubled through resists

Any barb/undead warlock - rage first turn, 2nd turn use your warlock feature. THP, extra necrotic damage (works well with a high damage dice weapon) and potential to fear on hit

Any barb/fathomless warlock - use tentacle 2nd round, helps you be sticky by slowing movement and can use reaction to reduce damage (which you'd have lots of resists to if you're raging, doubling how effective it is)

Any barb/genie - concentrationless flight, shores up a huge barbarian weakness

You won't have as many rages per day as a single class barbarian, but yiu can choose how you choose to fight. With a small investment (1 spell and 1 invocation) you can still eldritch blast very effectively. If you grab shadows of moil, you can still be a str heavy GWM in melee. There are lots of options available, you just don't do everything, all the time

Quick edit, i think the one thing i wouldnt do with a barb/lock is go hexblade. Barb gives the proficiencies and you won't have as many attacks for the curse. I suppose you could do a beast barb build and try to stack # of hits with extra rage damage and curse damage, but that seems less than ideal

You could even go pact of the chain celestial for THP to start and using your bonus action for your heals (which could be maximized). Rage would in lots of situations double the effectiveness of the healing you get as well

[RogueJK]

I may have to disagree here. Barbarians have a very good resource that regenerates on a long rest (rage) and warlocks have good abilities that regen on short rests. I mentioned earlier that barbs can really make use of THP, and warlocks have a number of ways to generate these. The trick to this build is flexibility. Assess the fight and decide your strategy. Is it worth it to rage? Is it worth it to concentrate on a spell? Is it better to ho melee? Is it better to stay at range?

When i think of a barb/lock, its generally going to be str/cha focused with great weapon master. Progression would be barb 1, warlock 1-5, barb 2 and then from there you could go up to barb 4, then more warlock or pick up more warlock levels. The end goal would be barb 4/warlock 12 with the rest wherever you'd like. Pact would be blade, but patron and barb subclass really could be anything. Invocations you'd want would be thirsting blade, lifedrinker, eldritch mind, improved pact blade (until picking up a magic weapon), agonizing blast, and could pick up a number of others that could be helpful. ASIs would be gteat weapon master then buffing cha and str.


The main problem with trying to be a Barbarian/Warlock "all arounder" like that, who switches back and forth between Rage Melee and Spellcasting/EB, is that it's very MAD. For the type of character you've described, you'd need both a high STR and CHA, along with a decent CON and a 14 DEX. It's even more MAD than something like a Paladin/Padlock/Sorcadin, because they can at least dump DEX and use Heavy Armor so only need STR/CON/CHA, but Barbarians don't get Heavy Armor and can't Rage while wearing Heavy Armor anyway.

So that'd be very tough to pull off with Point Buy, like the OP is using. You'd end up not being as good at anything, since you're having to spend points on 4 different stats off the bat. Plus you'd have to be splitting your later ASIs between boosting both STR and CHA, as well as shoring up your Concentration.

Whereas leaving CHA at 13, focusing on non-Concentration buffs and out of combat utility, and skipping attack/save spells allows it to be (very) slightly less MAD, and you can focus your ASIs more on just STR. That would therefore more realistically achievable with point buy (but still pretty MAD).


However, if you're one of those guys who always seems to manage to roll a stat spread like 18/17/16/16/14/12 in a group that rolls for stats, then knock yourself out with a Warlbarian all-arounder. :smallwink:

[Mitchellnotes]

The main problem with trying to be a Barbarian/Warlock "all arounder" like that is that it's very MAD. For the type of character you've described, you'd need a high STR and CHA, a moderate CON, and a 14 DEX. It's even more MAD than a Paladin (or Padlock/Sorlock) because Paladins can dump DEX and use Heavy Armor, but Barbarians don't get Heavy Armor and can't Rage while wearing Heavy Armor anyway.

So that's very tough to pull off with Point Buy, like the OP is using. You'd end up not being as good at anything, since you're having to dump points and ASIs into 4 different stats, plus shoring up your Concentration.

Whereas leaving CHA at 13 and focusing on non-Concentration buffs instead of attack/save spells allows it to be (very) slightly less MAD, and you can focus more on just STR, and would therefore more realistically achievable (but still quite MAD).

Fair, but assuming standard array half elf, you could start with:

Str: 16 (15+1)
Dex: 14 (13+1) OR 12
Con: 12 OR 14 (13+1)
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 (14+2)

Assuming a build like barb 8, warlock 12, you'd have 5 asi's. A couple decisions would be how badly do you want to max your str and cha. You could max both str and cha and pick up GWM, but that leaves you at 12 con (or 14). Less than ideal, but with a barb start you'd have +prof to con saves already and the focus on getting THP and rages would help mitigate some of the less than stellar con. You could also leave str and/or cha at 18 which gives back a feat or two for use boosting con/dex and all that. Alternatively, you could search for a magic item to boost str (again, that has some drawbacks as well)

I hear the concern, but a str focused paladin/lock isn't going to be much better off. It means not worrying about dex, but you still have the str/cha/con split to worry about

[Witty Username]

I have seen fiend pact paladin suggested, if I remember right dark one's blessing gives health on downing enemies. That can be good for tanking.
Overall though the only start out option is hexblade, but if you're going str all warlocks are equal more or less.