Making sense of World's Largest Dungeon

[fallensavior]

I am running WLD. Already in progress. Below may contain spoilers.

The handwave nature of the setting and plot left much to be desired and did not make sense in any typical RPG world in my opinion. Rather than rewrite the whole thing, I decided to lean into what was there and combine WLD with World's Largest City to create a giant VRMMORPG world. A video game within a roleplaying game only has to make as much sense as a video game. And the PCs are the avatars of regular people trapped in the game (under pain of death) until they finish it (Ready Player 2 style).

I've omitted some of the hardnosed grognard house rules that the book suggests. So Druids are not banned, Wizards are not hosed on spells, xp is removed instead of nerfed with the PCs leveling every few sessions as long as they are making progress but each region will have a level cap, ​teleportation is nerfed to fixed points instead of banned, summons are not banned...but I think I will do the thing where they are permanent and become uncontrolled and hostile when the duration expires (I am open to suggestions on the summoning thing, this has not come up yet.)

Just allowing retreat to the sandbox of the City and reentry to the Dungeon makes the gameplay more like a west marches game than the endless megadungeon crawl from hell that is advertised.

To add some of that challenge back and be more video gamey I have all of the exits to deeper regions magically sealed until the PCs defeat the boss(es) of a region. Defeating a region boss also raises the level cap for the PCs (assuming it unlocks a deeper region.)

I could use some suggestions for the region boss encounters from those that are familiar with WLD.

...

Here's what I've got so far:
Region A: Longtail is obvious. We already had this boss fight with the imp skulking around and a couple kythons coming through the portal one at a time.
Region B: At first I was thinking Bartleby (the halfling), but Argliss (the doppleganger) seems like a good candidate too. Maybe both. I'm thinking Rod of Cancellation as "the artifact".
Region C: ? Seems like the would-be boss is already slain
Region D: Chtrax the Xill lord? Or Rroliq + Tarrasque? D is a dead end, I guess it doesn't matter too much.
Region E: The natural boss here seems like the inevitables. But there are so many of them. Even if I say it's just the Maruts that need to be defeated, they are way out of a level 6 party's league. There is a noncombat solution to the inevitables in the book, but I don't know how apparent that will be. What's the alternative here? Defeat the barghest and mastiff leaders?
Region F: Seems like a lot of sub bosses here. Maybe the dragonne?
Region G: Definitely Krasveshk the nalfeshnee in the cocoon.
Region H: I could see this one having different good and evil different paths. I generally disallow evil PCs though, so they will probably have to defeat Diantha and Jolinaar instead of destroying the tree and dealing with the ensuing elven wrath.
Region I: Anguish and Madness
Region J: Tyrus the dragon(But is he beatable at level 15 if the DM gives him intelligent tactics?)
Region K: Thorodin the green dragon? Or the hags?
Region L: Release the Kraken!
Region M: Drider kings?
Region N: The World Eater, of course.
Region O: Jardarir, the Frost Giant cleric.

[Efrate]

Is not E the area with all the shadows(exiting north from first area) The necromancer and some shadows seem fitting. Been a long time since I ran it or played it so it's all fuzzy.

[Fizban]

The handwave nature of the setting and plot left much to be desired and did not make sense in any typical RPG world in my opinion. Rather than rewrite the whole thing, I decided to lean into what was there and combine WLD with World's Largest City to create a giant VRMMORPG world. A video game within a roleplaying game only has to make as much sense as a video game. . .
Just allowing retreat to the sandbox of the City and reentry to the Dungeon makes the gameplay more like a west marches game than the endless megadungeon crawl from hell that is advertised.
Unless the dungeon is constantly repopulating itself, it still won't make any sense. Unless the PCs are the only people willing to actually challenge the dungeon I suppose?


PCs leveling every few sessions as long as they are making progress but each region will have a level cap,
Note if you start at 1st level, that the first region is not a 1st level dungeon. It's basically 3rd. I'm pretty sure this is why most groups that try it seems to fail miserably and never look back. Since your group has apparently already finished this region, presumably starting at 1st, this does not bode well for the balance of the rest of the dungeon.

​teleportation is nerfed to fixed points instead of banned
Eh, shouldn't matter much. Once you've cleared/exited an area the only thing you'd have to worry about retracing your steps is the occasional random encounter below your level and the true distances involved are a few minutes at most. Unless the enemies all respawn, in which case having to wait until 7th level before they can enter and exit the dungeon without trouble will put a serious cramp in them returning to town.

You've decided they get to leave and presumably buy items, which means that they're going to be much more perfectly geared, but also that they'll probably want to trawl through every room to get every last gold piece. Since you're going video game conceit, shift most or all of their WBL to quest rewards (which can include items they keep or sell of course).

summons are not banned...but I think I will do the thing where they are permanent and become uncontrolled and hostile when the duration expires (I am open to suggestions on the summoning thing, this has not come up yet.)
I really wouldn't unless you seriously want to have the party abusing it in any and every way they can think of. It's far enough out of the standard DnD rules (and part of the standard Cleric list) that they will do it eventually.

And if you're already using a videogame conceit, you have no need to allow them at all, or make them follow some idea of DnD planar travel limitations.

To add some of that challenge back and be more video gamey I have all of the exits to deeper regions magically sealed until the PCs defeat the boss(es) of a region. Defeating a region boss also raises the level cap for the PCs (assuming it unlocks a deeper region.)
This kinda screws one of the best things about the dungeon: the element of choice. You generally can't get to the other side of a region without facing at least some significant foes, but if you don't like the area you're in and have some awareness of the layout, you can try to skim down the side and into an adjacent region. If you actually "use" the whole thing without culling regions, the players will naturally through their own choices pick a route through the dungeon which could go through or completely ignore certain areas, making their playthrough unique. Meanwhile some areas like the Halls of Flesh, have "bosses" that unlike the unmodified chaff and classed humanoids for most of the dungeon, are instead arbitrarily advanced (and often not CR's at their formula minimum) monstrosities that the PCs couldn't beat until several levels later. And as you note below, some regions don't even have "bosses."

Plenty of the regions are also set up to at least have the veneer of being natural living dungeons with factions that think and have goals rather than just trash mobs. Remove that and you've just got *really* trash mobs.



Region C: ? Seems like the would-be boss is already slain
The super powerful unstatted demon lord or whatever is dead as part of the backstory, yes. There's a bogus series of rooms that once entered will no-save kill anyone in the party who's Evil, possibly even Neutral, that could count as a "boss" :smalltongue:

Region D: Chtrax the Xill lord? Or Rroliq + Tarrasque? D is a dead end, I guess it doesn't matter too much.
The Tarrasque is not only a Tarrasque in a place where the monster is a threat, and a ticking timer, but also a potential win condition. The whole "second half" of the dungeon is open enough the PCs could stumble into most of the endgame areas as early as 11th level, and the mass of giants guarding the big endgame exit is a hell of a barrier. If the PCs can free but don't/can't kill the Tarrasque, it goes on a rampage, and either carves its own exit or blows through the giants.


Region E: The natural boss here seems like the inevitables. But there are so many of them. Even if I say it's just the Maruts that need to be defeated, they are way out of a level 6 party's league. There is a noncombat solution to the inevitables in the book, but I don't know how apparent that will be. What's the alternative here? Defeat the barghest and mastiff leaders?
The noncombat solution is just. . . don't attack the inevitables. They're the "good" guys and if anything should be a safe place to rest and access some old stores of dungeon equipment, for the megadungeon version. Just get rid of the part where one of them wants to conscript people under pain of death, which is dumb anyway and only happens if they enter just the right area. The main problem with this region is that the given celestials and inevitables should have no trouble stomping all the monsters in their region and taking back their wardstaves- they need much stricter charging schedules to actually prevent them from doing so.

There are two packs of barghests and a subregion full of shadows which serve as barriers here. I think there might be another named monster, a medusa or naga or something, which is is league with one of the barghest packs, which could be designated a "boss." But really this region is about backstory, deciding whether or not you should fight things, and entry to either the Maze or Halls of Flesh.

Region F: Seems like a lot of sub bosses here. Maybe the dragonne?
It's a Maze. The boss is getting through the maze, which includes Teleportation Circle traps you can fail to notice. I'm fairly confident in saying no one actually wants to have to hand-map this entire region while actually running those traps as written. The easiest solution is the minotaur tribe which is amenable to talking, you make friends with them and they lead you through the maze. The more hostile tribe has a boss.

Region G: Definitely Krasveshk the nalfeshnee in the cocoon.
Not sure I got through reading this one entirely, but IIRC it also has a problem that the given celestials desperately keeping the zomg demon bound could just kill it themselves. Said fluff problems can somewhat be papered over if you say the demon's power has atrophied/been spent weakening the prison, and you can swap out to weaker celestials.


Region H: I could see this one having different good and evil different paths. I generally disallow evil PCs though, so they will probably have to defeat Diantha and Jolinaar instead of destroying the tree and dealing with the ensuing elven wrath.
It very specifically and intentionally has Moral Choices (dictated by the party's saviness/suspicion/detect magic paranoia and mind control)- and is also either completely skippable or compulsory. The reason the PCs would want to stop is that it's another civillized area, with the major exit which isn't guarded/created by a uber monsters. And then if they don't there's some sort of unspecified apocalypse that happens even worse than the Tarrasque or Worm, IIRC- not the best.

This is where the "second half" of the dungeon becomes apparent, where the milestone just get through leveling suggestion of the earlier dungeons seems to give way to a sandbox style "search and grind until you're good enough" old school dungeon. The PCs can exit out into K or H as low as 11th or 10th according to the given level ranges, but once out can easily reach any of the endgame areas far above their level. The elves' roof exit in H is the easiest one and seems to me the big dividing line, where if the PCs are trying to exist you can end the game there. Or, if you want a few adjacent high level dungeons to crawl through, where the PCs would enter.


Region I: Anguish and Madness
Should be completely unkillable by PCs of the given level in my opinion, their stats are nuts- and if your power level is high enough that they can be, the entire rest of the dungeon is a cakewalk. This region is again, like most, a pass through with interesting bits on the way- after getting out of the creep zone the PCs are meant to either follow the trail of Drow north into M for the rest of their plot, or turn off into J and then follow the lava river through the edges of J, F, and G to reach K or H (or cross the river and try to punch up through J itself). The uberboss with a whole quest to defeat it works only because it is optional.


Region J: Tyrus the dragon(But is he beatable at level 15 if the DM gives him intelligent tactics?)
Again, an uberboss with a quest (pretty sure getting in there requires some specific stuff) that the PCs should come back to rather than scouring the whole region until they've got the levels to win, if they come back at all.


Region K: Thorodin the green dragon? Or the hags?
The whole region is a mass of editing errors. The concept of a dragon that can see over nearly the entire (now open plains of marsh and water) area and must be dealt with to pass is fine, but everything else is a mess.


Region L: Release the Kraken!
The main problem with this region is the depth: the PCs cannot survive at that level without magic that lets them ignore pressure damage. And also that they have no reason to go underwater at all. A videogame giant invisible wall until they dive down and beat the boss actually improves this region, but doesn't fix the first problem. There are some "modified" Necklaces of Adaptation near shore which depending on reading may or may not work for the PCs, but seem intended to let them actually explore this region- except the necklaces are themselves below the pressure damage line and the PCs have no way to know they're there.


Region M: Drider kings?
Region N: The World Eater, of course.
Region O: Jardarir, the Frost Giant cleric.
Naturally. Note that the Drider section is considered a low-key possible dungeon exit, while the World Eater creates one itself. There are exit points for WLD all over since as they point out, they don't really expect anyone to play it all the way from 1st through the giants. The "you must beat the videogame" conceit might seem to conflict with this at first glance, but unless they've been told, the PCs have no way of knowing when the end of the "game" actually is, so there's no need to decide what or where the "end" is up front.


In sum, World's Largest Dungeon is not actually meant for you to stop and scour every region/be locked in until you beat the boss, instead intentionally having multiple optional bosses the PCs are not meant to fight. If you wanted to run it this way I would suggest culling whole sub-regions until each region is actually an adventure that goes from appropriate level to appropriate level- and while doing so you can rewrite all the given foes and bosses to actually work for your party. If they got past the first region starting at 1st, I expect the goblins in one direction or barghests in goblin form in the other followed by drow warriors/fighters or basic minotaurs, are all going to be less than interesting.


Is not E the area with all the shadows(exiting north from first area) The necromancer and some shadows seem fitting. Been a long time since I ran it or played it so it's all fuzzy.
The necromancer is already dead- checking, it seems they were killed by one of the celestials. But the two apprentices lived and now obey a Greater Shadow which is actually in charge of that sub-region. A nifty little reversal, but they occupy only one corner of the map.

[fallensavior]

Thanks for the detailed response!


Unless the dungeon is constantly repopulating itself, it still won't make any sense. Unless the PCs are the only people willing to actually challenge the dungeon I suppose?

Oh, I addressed that. There are different instances of the dungeon. So each adventuring guild/clan/party mostly has its own dungeon to itself. I do want to have at least one surprise moment where they encounter a rival party though.


Note if you start at 1st level, that the first region is not a 1st level dungeon. It's basically 3rd. I'm pretty sure this is why most groups that try it seems to fail miserably and never look back. Since your group has apparently already finished this region, presumably starting at 1st, this does not bode well for the balance of the rest of the dungeon.

What they did was pretty smart. After the slow and painstaking 1st session where they almost died, they went back to the city and started doing side quests until they hit level 3. At which point I told them they're level capped until they beat Longtail the region A boss. Then they started exploring the dungeon in earnest. Now that they beat him (still a tough fight), I think they might be planning to go back to the city until they level cap again though.


Eh, shouldn't matter much. Once you've cleared/exited an area the only thing you'd have to worry about retracing your steps is the occasional random encounter below your level and the true distances involved are a few minutes at most. Unless the enemies all respawn, in which case having to wait until 7th level before they can enter and exit the dungeon without trouble will put a serious cramp in them returning to town.

They left the portal open after the Longtail fight, so I was thinking region A would gradually get more monsters in it that way. But I don't have plans on mass respawns. What I did for getting in and out is add a "teleporter" to the entrance of A and a semirandom room of each other region. As well as one to each city district. Each teleporter can take them to any other teleporter that they've already used. Teleportation magic will be tied to those fixed points. So Ddoor will take them to the teleporter of the current region if they have found it, or otherwise to the on most recently used. And Teleport will take them to their choice of teleporter that they have previously used.


You've decided they get to leave and presumably buy items, which means that they're going to be much more perfectly geared, but also that they'll probably want to trawl through every room to get every last gold piece. Since you're going video game conceit, shift most or all of their WBL to quest rewards (which can include items they keep or sell of course).

I anticipated this and made it very clear from the beginning that this campaign would have the default selling price for loot reduced to 10% instead of 50%.


I really wouldn't unless you seriously want to have the party abusing it in any and every way they can think of. It's far enough out of the standard DnD rules (and part of the standard Cleric list) that they will do it eventually.

And if you're already using a videogame conceit, you have no need to allow them at all, or make them follow some idea of DnD planar travel limitations.

We did end up having a low op druid. So I don't want to screw over summons completely. Maybe just evil summons will be permanent and not controlled at all.


This kinda screws one of the best things about the dungeon: the element of choice. You generally can't get to the other side of a region without facing at least some significant foes, but if you don't like the area you're in and have some awareness of the layout, you can try to skim down the side and into an adjacent region. If you actually "use" the whole thing without culling regions, the players will naturally through their own choices pick a route through the dungeon which could go through or completely ignore certain areas, making their playthrough unique. Meanwhile some areas like the Halls of Flesh, have "bosses" that unlike the unmodified chaff and classed humanoids for most of the dungeon, are instead arbitrarily advanced (and often not CR's at their formula minimum) monstrosities that the PCs couldn't beat until several levels later. And as you note below, some regions don't even have "bosses."

I'm curious what path they take. I don't think they will try to clear every region. but there is that incentive to try to accumulate as much wealth as possible.

I'm guessing I might have to tone down some of those uber bosses.


Plenty of the regions are also set up to at least have the veneer of being natural living dungeons with factions that think and have goals rather than just trash mobs. Remove that and you've just got *really* trash mobs.

I am trying to rp the monsters as if they think the are real. The party made peaceful contact with both the kobolds and the orcs in region A. So I think that's going well so far.


The super powerful unstatted demon lord or whatever is dead as part of the backstory, yes. There's a bogus series of rooms that once entered will no-save kill anyone in the party who's Evil, possibly even Neutral, that could count as a "boss" :smalltongue:

I might fabricate a boss for region C. Any suggestions?


The Tarrasque is not only a Tarrasque in a place where the monster is a threat, and a ticking timer, but also a potential win condition. The whole "second half" of the dungeon is open enough the PCs could stumble into most of the endgame areas as early as 11th level, and the mass of giants guarding the big endgame exit is a hell of a barrier. If the PCs can free but don't/can't kill the Tarrasque, it goes on a rampage, and either carves its own exit or blows through the giants.

That could be interesting...



The noncombat solution is just. . . don't attack the inevitables. They're the "good" guys and if anything should be a safe place to rest and access some old stores of dungeon equipment, for the megadungeon version. Just get rid of the part where one of them wants to conscript people under pain of death, which is dumb anyway and only happens if they enter just the right area. The main problem with this region is that the given celestials and inevitables should have no trouble stomping all the monsters in their region and taking back their wardstaves- they need much stricter charging schedules to actually prevent them from doing so.

The book says
if you get the inevitables to touch the charter, they take damage from it and faced with incontrovertable proof of the error of their ways, they are forced to free the (unwilling) redeemed and reunite the garrison
I would say that is defeating/overcoming the inevitables and counts as a boss win.


There are two packs of barghests and a subregion full of shadows which serve as barriers here. I think there might be another named monster, a medusa or naga or something, which is is league with one of the barghest packs, which could be designated a "boss." But really this region is about backstory, deciding whether or not you should fight things, and entry to either the Maze or Halls of Flesh.

That's the backup plan if they don't catch onto the charter thing.


It's a Maze. The boss is getting through the maze, which includes Teleportation Circle traps you can fail to notice. I'm fairly confident in saying no one actually wants to have to hand-map this entire region while actually running those traps as written. The easiest solution is the minotaur tribe which is amenable to talking, you make friends with them and they lead you through the maze. The more hostile tribe has a boss.

Mapping hasn't been an issue. Since we play on Roll20, I just leave the fog of war down on the areas that they have been and call it an automapping feature of the game. That might "give the game away" on the warp gates though.


Not sure I got through reading this one entirely, but IIRC it also has a problem that the given celestials desperately keeping the zomg demon bound could just kill it themselves. Said fluff problems can somewhat be papered over if you say the demon's power has atrophied/been spent weakening the prison, and you can swap out to weaker celestials.

I was surprised that it was a nalfeshnee. Even if it is an arbitrarily advanced one. Probably a good idea to put weaker celestials there.


It very specifically and intentionally has Moral Choices (dictated by the party's saviness/suspicion/detect magic paranoia and mind control)- and is also either completely skippable or compulsory. The reason the PCs would want to stop is that it's another civillized area, with the major exit which isn't guarded/created by a uber monsters. And then if they don't there's some sort of unspecified apocalypse that happens even worse than the Tarrasque or Worm, IIRC- not the best.

I'm pretty sure the ominous warnings are supposed to refer to the bad stuff brewing in one of the other dungeon regions. World Eater, etc. I think the authors expected the DM to tie it in to the one in whichever direction the PCs go.


This is where the "second half" of the dungeon becomes apparent, where the milestone just get through leveling suggestion of the earlier dungeons seems to give way to a sandbox style "search and grind until you're good enough" old school dungeon. The PCs can exit out into K or H as low as 11th or 10th according to the given level ranges, but once out can easily reach any of the endgame areas far above their level. The elves' roof exit in H is the easiest one and seems to me the big dividing line, where if the PCs are trying to exist you can end the game there. Or, if you want a few adjacent high level dungeons to crawl through, where the PCs would enter.

I think I'm just going to fiat that they have to exit via region O for it to count as a win.


Should be completely unkillable by PCs of the given level in my opinion, their stats are nuts- and if your power level is high enough that they can be, the entire rest of the dungeon is a cakewalk. This region is again, like most, a pass through with interesting bits on the way- after getting out of the creep zone the PCs are meant to either follow the trail of Drow north into M for the rest of their plot, or turn off into J and then follow the lava river through the edges of J, F, and G to reach K or H (or cross the river and try to punch up through J itself). The uberboss with a whole quest to defeat it works only because it is optional.

Again, an uberboss with a quest (pretty sure getting in there requires some specific stuff) that the PCs should come back to rather than scouring the whole region until they've got the levels to win, if they come back at all.

I will evaluate whether I need to tone these bosses down when they get closer to those areas and I have a better idea of how powerful they have become.



The main problem with this region is the depth: the PCs cannot survive at that level without magic that lets them ignore pressure damage. And also that they have no reason to go underwater at all. A videogame giant invisible wall until they dive down and beat the boss actually improves this region, but doesn't fix the first problem. There are some "modified" Necklaces of Adaptation near shore which depending on reading may or may not work for the PCs, but seem intended to let them actually explore this region- except the necklaces are themselves below the pressure damage line and the PCs have no way to know they're there.

I figured there would be a spell for that. If not, they can research one!



Naturally. Note that the Drider section is considered a low-key possible dungeon exit, while the World Eater creates one itself. There are exit points for WLD all over since as they point out, they don't really expect anyone to play it all the way from 1st through the giants. The "you must beat the videogame" conceit might seem to conflict with this at first glance, but unless they've been told, the PCs have no way of knowing when the end of the "game" actually is, so there's no need to decide what or where the "end" is up front.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I already let slip that they need to get to region O for it to count. That was in game though, so I can claim unreliable narrator if I change my mind later.


In sum, World's Largest Dungeon is not actually meant for you to stop and scour every region/be locked in until you beat the boss, instead intentionally having multiple optional bosses the PCs are not meant to fight. If you wanted to run it this way I would suggest culling whole sub-regions until each region is actually an adventure that goes from appropriate level to appropriate level- and while doing so you can rewrite all the given foes and bosses to actually work for your party. If they got past the first region starting at 1st, I expect the goblins in one direction or barghests in goblin form in the other followed by drow warriors/fighters or basic minotaurs, are all going to be less than interesting.

That will be an issue if they backtrack and change direction. If it's really bad, I might just delete encounters willy nilly in the underlevel section and say another adventuring party or something must have come through and cleaned it out.

[Fizban]

There are different instances of the dungeon. So each adventuring guild/clan/party mostly has its own dungeon to itself. I do want to have at least one surprise moment where they encounter a rival party though.
Ah, of course.

What they did was pretty smart. After the slow and painstaking 1st session where they almost died, they went back to the city and started doing side quests until they hit level 3. At which point I told them they're level capped until they beat Longtail the region A boss. Then they started exploring the dungeon in earnest. Now that they beat him (still a tough fight), I think they might be planning to go back to the city until they level cap again though.
. . . I feel like refusing to do the dungeon until you've sidequested enough to do the dungeon only proves how borked region A is (not that you were objecting).

If World's Largest City has that much gameplay support I'd be more afraid they'd just stick to the city, but that's what the escape or die conceit is for.


I anticipated this and made it very clear from the beginning that this campaign would have the default selling price for loot reduced to 10% instead of 50%.
This should be interesting- I've often said that the fix for too much random loot is to reduce the selling price, but I haven't run loot totals, so no idea how much they actually over-loot in WLD (presumably the same amount that they over-xp). I'd fear that with so much loot useless/good loot easily missed, 10% might end up being too low. But that's always easy to fix anyway.

We did end up having a low op druid. So I don't want to screw over summons completely. Maybe just evil summons will be permanent and not controlled at all.
Ah- is that Druid in the "divine" role? 'Cause you'll also find that druid is much worse at that role than advertised, only a couple spells away from my re-classifying them as an arcanist by this point. Lack of Magic Weapon, Protection From Alignment/Magic Circle, Remove Fear, Align Weapon, Remove Paralysis, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Restoration, Spell Immunity/Spell Resistance, and Break Enchantment are all things that can come up with arbitrary MM1 monsters. Particularly in the mind control plot and giant pile of undead sort of areas (Break Enchantment is for un-petrifying but is actually too late for most petrifying monsters [so I add a 3rd level single target version]). Much of this can be mitigated if they're popping back to town whenever, but if they have to pay for those services then the 10% sale price of loot may become a bottleneck.

And as for low-op- well considering how the 3.5 SNA list just went nuts with no justification that I can see, I'm starting to see using them at all as cheese. Splat druid has tons of attack spells, many of which all also busted in my estimation (I've been working on a whole SpC rundown recently), regardless of whatever op-level the base character is at. It should be possible to give the druid "stuff to do" and keep a strict no-summoning rule just fine, if desired (Conjure Ice Beast says lol).


I'm guessing I might have to tone down some of those uber bosses.
You could also just enforce boss barriers at appropriate points, leaving out optional bosses and certain side paths clear. I can definitely see the thought in going "well the dungeon has regions, can't leave region until boss," but since they laid it out as essentially a series of interconnected smaller dungeons some of which cross regions, it just won't line up without a bit of force.

I could certainly see boss barriers-
Preventing travel down the lava river if they entered the Drider kingdom.
Preventing exit from the Maze
Blocking further travel into I without dealing with either the shadows or barghests.
Preventing exit from K or G until dealing with the green dragon or demon pod (at reasonable boss tier)
Preventing exit from L/entry to O without dealing with the Kraken.
Maybe preventing any exit from H once the party interacts with the elves, signifying that "plot" is happening.

I'd skip B and C entirely, though it sounds like your group might have gone there already. Goblins and empty ruins with a huge backstory and no living reminders are just dull (the celestials and inevitables and wardstaves and door to old storage in the Last Stand area are better at least). Note that the Maze only exits into J, which itself I consider a bypass on the way to the marsh of K (unless you hit the maze corner with the lava and ride it to G with the demon pod) since I view the red dragon of J and the path leading to it as an optional boss. So the Maze is only relevant when coming from B or E, and I say to skip B entirely, and the Halls of Flesh in I are more interesting than the Maze so E to I is better. Thus I find the Maze itself superfluous.

But if you're already in B, the Maze is more interesting than C, and very appropriate for the 'ol trapped in a videogame setup.


I might fabricate a boss for region C. Any suggestions?
Nope. That branch of goblins into ruined "lab" was the weakest in a number of ways so I was glad I didn't have to steer my party away. So I don't recall what if any current factions are around to bossify.


The book says
if you get the inevitables to touch the charter, they take damage from it and faced with incontrovertable proof of the error of their ways, they are forced to free the (unwilling) redeemed and reunite the garrison
I would say that is defeating/overcoming the inevitables and counts as a boss win.
Eh, fair enough. My party once again bypassed the annoying part thankfully by chance and teamed up with the celestials first, no need to quibble with the inevitables. Though the night they spent camped out peering under the crack in the door while the marut stomped past was some nice atmosphere.


I'm pretty sure the ominous warnings are supposed to refer to the bad stuff brewing in one of the other dungeon regions. World Eater, etc. I think the authors expected the DM to tie it in to the one in whichever direction the PCs go.
I remember it as allowing that but also having the vague unstoppable one as a default, I'd have to check but eh, if it's not compulsory that's only better.


I figured there would be a spell for that. If not, they can research one!
There are, but not in core. And it's a spot where the Druid does bring an advantage since they get Transformation of the Deeps (Stormwrack) where Clerics don't and Sor/Wiz would have to pay out of spells known. It's at 5th, but also doesn't give any swim speed or remove underwater combat penalties, so more spells are needed. You'd think Airy Water might do something but it makes no mention of pressure.

[Troacctid]

Since you're making it videogamey, one fun thing you might consider doing is having each boss drop an upgrade gem for their HQ, allowing them to gain a Roguelite-style permanent bonus of their choice that helps the whole party. For example, a forge that lets them craft magic items without feats, a training grounds that allows retraining during downtime, a scanner that gives them hints about the next section of the dungeon, or a teleportation circle that allows them to skip sections they've already beaten.

[Endarire]

I recommend avoiding the permanent summons bit because that's asking for abuse. Planar binding is normally considered troublesome in part because of long-term cheap minions. Even if you can mind control them (and charm animal and dominate animal are low-level Druid spells), how many PC-led extra bodies do you want in combat at max?

Otherwise, what you mentioned reminds me of Dark Souls: You have access to X areas until you finish Y criteria, and everything is valuable for something. (Dark Souls has finite EXP/money/souls aside from grinding.) You also don't get all of a foe's gear, but only some soul equivalent of it and sometimes also items.

+1 to Roguelite elements.

[fallensavior]

. . . I feel like refusing to do the dungeon until you've sidequested enough to do the dungeon only proves how borked region A is (not that you were objecting).

If World's Largest City has that much gameplay support I'd be more afraid they'd just stick to the city, but that's what the escape or die conceit is for.

The do seem to prefer WLC to WLD. Which is funny, because over the years I've repeatedly asked the group if they wanted to do a sandbox style campaign. And they always say no, run an adventure module. Even my most enthusiastic player was relieved that this campaign wasn't going to be just one long dungeon crawl. He thought that type of slog would get boring fast.


This should be interesting- I've often said that the fix for too much random loot is to reduce the selling price, but I haven't run loot totals, so no idea how much they actually over-loot in WLD (presumably the same amount that they over-xp). I'd fear that with so much loot useless/good loot easily missed, 10% might end up being too low. But that's always easy to fix anyway.

I went with 10% figuring they'd try to scrape as much GP out of the dungeon as possible. Not sure if that is going to be the case. They are well under WbL for now. I actually started them with stone age gear: bone clubs, stone daggers, wicker armor, etc. Those are effectively -2 weapons. (I also made the humanoids in region A less threatening by giving them all bone or bronze weapons. But the darkmantles in that first session were real dangerous.) Then each session, going by the A&EG, equipment from the next tech level became available to buy in the city. So they feel pretty good about having normal mundane equipment and a few masterwork items at level 4.


Ah- is that Druid in the "divine" role? 'Cause you'll also find that druid is much worse at that role than advertised, only a couple spells away from my re-classifying them as an arcanist by this point. Lack of Magic Weapon, Protection From Alignment/Magic Circle, Remove Fear, Align Weapon, Remove Paralysis, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Restoration, Spell Immunity/Spell Resistance, and Break Enchantment are all things that can come up with arbitrary MM1 monsters. Particularly in the mind control plot and giant pile of undead sort of areas (Break Enchantment is for un-petrifying but is actually too late for most petrifying monsters [so I add a 3rd level single target version]). Much of this can be mitigated if they're popping back to town whenever, but if they have to pay for those services then the 10% sale price of loot may become a bottleneck.

We have a cleric too, but he wants to play it as a beatstick, multiclassing Warblade to prestige into an RKV variant.


And as for low-op- well considering how the 3.5 SNA list just went nuts with no justification that I can see, I'm starting to see using them at all as cheese. Splat druid has tons of attack spells, many of which all also busted in my estimation (I've been working on a whole SpC rundown recently), regardless of whatever op-level the base character is at. It should be possible to give the druid "stuff to do" and keep a strict no-summoning rule just fine, if desired (Conjure Ice Beast says lol).

Yeah, druid is kind of OP by default.


You could also just enforce boss barriers at appropriate points, leaving out optional bosses and certain side paths clear. I can definitely see the thought in going "well the dungeon has regions, can't leave region until boss," but since they laid it out as essentially a series of interconnected smaller dungeons some of which cross regions, it just won't line up without a bit of force.

I could certainly see boss barriers-
Preventing travel down the lava river if they entered the Drider kingdom.
Preventing exit from the Maze
Blocking further travel into I without dealing with either the shadows or barghests.
Preventing exit from K or G until dealing with the green dragon or demon pod (at reasonable boss tier)
Preventing exit from L/entry to O without dealing with the Kraken.
Maybe preventing any exit from H once the party interacts with the elves, signifying that "plot" is happening.

I think I'm going to embrace the "multiple paths to a boss win" approach like I talked about for region E and include more noncombat victory conditions. For example, region I has the ritual of unmaking to "delete" one of the bosses. If the PCs do it twice that can be an autowin. (The book says it can only be done once, but whatever.) If Diantha and Jolinaar are the bosses for Region H, there can be a diplomatic solution where the PCs find out what they are doing and turn the rest of the elves against them for a noncombat victory.



I'd skip B and C entirely, though it sounds like your group might have gone there already. Goblins and empty ruins with a huge backstory and no living reminders are just dull (the celestials and inevitables and wardstaves and door to old storage in the Last Stand area are better at least). Note that the Maze only exits into J, which itself I consider a bypass on the way to the marsh of K (unless you hit the maze corner with the lava and ride it to G with the demon pod) since I view the red dragon of J and the path leading to it as an optional boss. So the Maze is only relevant when coming from B or E, and I say to skip B entirely, and the Halls of Flesh in I are more interesting than the Maze so E to I is better. Thus I find the Maze itself superfluous.

But if you're already in B, the Maze is more interesting than C, and very appropriate for the 'ol trapped in a videogame setup.

They haven't gone farther than A yet. I expect when they return to the dungeon, assuming they don't try to 100% clear region A, that they will make for E. Just because they have stumbled across a few of the exits north and none of the exits east so far.



Nope. That branch of goblins into ruined "lab" was the weakest in a number of ways so I was glad I didn't have to steer my party away. So I don't recall what if any current factions are around to bossify.

I'm not above making up something out of whole cloth, or even borrowing from another published adventure. Just looking for interesting dungeon boss encounter ideas for a 9th level party.


Since you're making it videogamey, one fun thing you might consider doing is having each boss drop an upgrade gem for their HQ, allowing them to gain a Roguelite-style permanent bonus of their choice that helps the whole party. For example, a forge that lets them craft magic items without feats, a training grounds that allows retraining during downtime, a scanner that gives them hints about the next section of the dungeon, or a teleportation circle that allows them to skip sections they've already beaten.

I'm familiar with roguelike. I just had to look up what "roguelite" means. I like the idea though. They don't have a base yet, but the PCs know they can buy real estate in the city when they get enough money. If 10% loot selling turns out to be too low, this might be a good way to have them feel like they earned a higher % without being too on the nose about "you aren't looting enough".


I recommend avoiding the permanent summons bit because that's asking for abuse. Planar binding is normally considered troublesome in part because of long-term cheap minions. Even if you can mind control them (and charm animal and dominate animal are low-level Druid spells), how many PC-led extra bodies do you want in combat at max?

Otherwise, what you mentioned reminds me of Dark Souls: You have access to X areas until you finish Y criteria, and everything is valuable for something. (Dark Souls has finite EXP/money/souls aside from grinding.) You also don't get all of a foe's gear, but only some soul equivalent of it and sometimes also items.

+1 to Roguelite elements.

Yeah. As much as I like idea of tinkering with the laws of magic, I see this change could be wildly problematic now. So I'm leaning toward no blanket ban on summoning, the original prisoners couldn't teleport, etc because of some sort of binding. And maybe some regions/areas will have summoning disabled.