Palard: Leveling order?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm trying to figure out what order to level my Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X in Rime of the Frostmaiden. (Strength based VHuman with PAM)
My rule of thumb is generally get one class to level 5 (or 6) as fast as possible, but this character might be an exception.
In either case I'm definitely starting with Paladin.
Option A: Paladin 1/ Swords Bard 6/ Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. Advantages are that I get 2nd and 3rd level spells and multi-attack more quickly. Disadvantage is that I delay smite until 8 total levels. Note that total caster level isn't improved as I round down for paladin 1.
Option B: Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. Advantage is getting Smite and Fighting Style quickly, but delay higher level spells and multi-attack.

In either case I wouldn't say the character is 'online' until it gets both multi-attack and smite, so 8 total levels. In the mean time am I more helpful with higher level spells (but equal slots) and multi-attack at 7th? Or getting smite and fighting style right away but delaying higher level spells and multi-attack by a level? I do think it's worth at least considering breaking my rule of thumb for this one, probably in part because caster level isn't disadvantaged by taking the second martial level. I also will get a 2nd (and maybe 3rd) chance to smite per round with PAM, so extra attack doesn't seem that critical.

[Waazraath]

I'm trying to figure out what order to level my Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X in Rime of the Frostmaiden. (Strength based VHuman with PAM)
My rule of thumb is generally get one class to level 5 (or 6) as fast as possible, but this character might be an exception.
In either case I'm definitely starting with Paladin.
Option A: Paladin 1/ Swords Bard 6/ Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. Advantages are that I get 2nd and 3rd level spells and multi-attack more quickly. Disadvantage is that I delay smite until 8 total levels. Note that total caster level isn't improved as I round down for paladin 1.
Option B: Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. Advantage is getting Smite and Fighting Style quickly, but delay higher level spells and multi-attack.

In either case I wouldn't say the character is 'online' until it gets both multi-attack and smite, so 8 total levels. In the mean time am I more helpful with higher level spells (but equal slots) and multi-attack at 7th? Or getting smite and fighting style right away but delaying higher level spells and multi-attack by a level? I do think it's worth at least considering breaking my rule of thumb for this one, probably in part because caster level isn't disadvantaged by taking the second martial level. I also will get a 2nd (and maybe 3rd) chance to smite per round with PAM, so extra attack doesn't seem that critical.

I don't think it matters that much, to be honest, in power, but if I would build a melee pally/bard, I would like to have at least smite as soon as possible. And you mention you consider the build online when having both extra attack and smite. But extra atttack is only available at 5 (single class) or 7 (your alternative build); given that, your pally 2/ sword bard x is as much as possible onine at level 2-6 (compared with you other build), or at 2-4 (compared with single class paladin). If you go the other route, your character will only be only at level 8 (having smite and extra attack). So from that perspective, I'd go pally 2/ bard x.

By the way, if you use a polearm, doesn't that let your fighting style from sword bard go to waste (since they can only pick dueling or dual wielder)?

[MrStabby]

I would pick Paladin 1 then bard 6 as you suggest. Becomeing a strong melee character requires quite a lot of levels due to the multiclassing and the delayed extra attack on the bard. Being a solid (nearly) pure caster in the interim is a great fallback plan. Heavy armour and shield from the paladin is still a good compliment for a caster looking to keep concentration.

When you hit level 6 you will have 3rd level spells. At level 7 you have a major transition to being a viable melee fighter and at level 8 you can take your 2nd level of Paladin for extra melee presence and you can switch up your weapon configuration then.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about Pole Arm Master as a priority. Boost charisma (more flourishes, better spells) and get decent (ish) strength first.

As you transition into more of a fighter you may want to swap out a lot of your spells. Some spells will be tough to cast in battle without warcaster (at low levels you can sit back with shield in one hand, other one free for spellcasting); I think that the better polearms are going to be quarterstaff and spear for you so you can keep concentration/offset the slightly lower hit die of the bard and so you can make use of the dueling fighting syle. This isn't a problem - a big flashy concentration spell like hypnotic pattern to open. Maybe buffs like mirror image if you get time before a fight... then burning some spell slots on smiting a bit later.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't think it matters that much, to be honest, in power, but if I would build a melee pally/bard, I would like to have at least smite as soon as possible. And you mention you consider the build online when having both extra attack and smite. But extra atttack is only available at 5 (single class) or 7 (your alternative build); given that, your pally 2/ sword bard x is as much as possible onine at level 2-6 (compared with you other build), or at 2-4 (compared with single class paladin). If you go the other route, your character will only be only at level 8 (having smite and extra attack). So from that perspective, I'd go pally 2/ bard x.

By the way, if you use a polearm, doesn't that let your fighting style from sword bard go to waste (since they can only pick dueling or dual wielder)?

Thanks for the thoughts. Thinking Spear and Shield for PAM, so Dueling still works.

[RogueJK]

I'd definitely go Paladin 2 first. Having earlier access to Smite is well worth the additional level delay to your Bard spells.

[CheddarChampion]

I also think Paladin 2 is the way to start.

Divine Smite, in addition to PAM, will give you plenty of damage.
Defensive fighting style (or Blind Fighting fighting style) strengthens your ability to AC tank. Paladin spells help further.

Even though you learn Bard spells one level later, you have the same number of spell slots as the other option.
You also get 3-4 Paladin spells prepared, that's more variety in spells you can cast.

[RogueJK]

Defensive fighting style (or Blind Fighting fighting style)

Or even Blessed Warrior fighting style for a ranged backup option like Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead (if you have a decent CHA), plus something like Guidance.

STR-based Paladins that dump DEX typically struggle against ranged or flying enemies. And Bards only get Vicious Mockery as a ranged cantrip, which is rather lacking.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I also think Paladin 2 is the way to start.

Divine Smite, in addition to PAM, will give you plenty of damage.
Defensive fighting style (or Blind Fighting fighting style) strengthens your ability to AC tank. Paladin spells help further.

Even though you learn Bard spells one level later, you have the same number of spell slots as the other option.
You also get 3-4 Paladin spells prepared, that's more variety in spells you can cast.

Those were the 2 choices for fighting style I was thinking of (on top of Dueling for Swords Bard). I can get Pyrotechnics to block vision. Anything else you see that a bard could do to take advantage of Blindfighting? Of course it's a team game and whether or not others will be able to help with this tactic or be hindered by it is up in the air. I'm imagining RotFM would have some white-out conditions (no spoilers here please) and even if it doesn't as written I'd imagine our DM for this adventure would lean into poor conditions, so Blindfighting might be useful anyway. Of course Defensive is always a safe bet.
Good point on the more variety. I tend to undervalue that I think, so didn't factor that in. Another reason to get the 2nd level of Paly right away.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Or even Blessed Warrior fighting style for a ranged backup option like Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead (if you have a decent CHA), plus something like Guidance.

STR-based Paladins that dump DEX typically struggle against ranged or flying enemies. And Bards only get Vicious Mockery as a ranged cantrip, which is rather lacking.

I wonder if this is something I should take initially then swap out down the road (I believe this is now OK; there have been so many rule changes/ adds) Reason being I agree with your points at low level, but as the character levels up it seems like he will have lots of options for a round of leveled spell buffs, attacks, or something else useful if combat starts ranged. Our table tends not to kite for a whole battle, and this character is definitely comfortable closing.

[Corran]

Option A: Paladin 1/ Swords Bard 6/ Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. Advantages are that I get 2nd and 3rd level spells and multi-attack more quickly. Disadvantage is that I delay smite until 8 total levels. Note that total caster level isn't improved as I round down for paladin 1.
Option B: Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. Advantage is getting Smite and Fighting Style quickly, but delay higher level spells and multi-attack.
Option A2: Paladin 1 -> paladin 1/bard 5.
Third level spells and inspiration on short rest is too good not to prioritize imo (also you'll probably need some feat -warcater/resilient/mobile- sooner than later to cover for defense).
After that, see if you need nova or dpr/improved grappling more and prioritize accordingly when to take the 2nd paladin level.

[Quietus]

I did a dex-based version of this where I went bard3/paladin2/bard X; that worked out very well, but I certainly felt the lack of Extra Attack through early tier 2. For an explicitly melee version of this, I'd definitely look to grab Paladin2 right off the bat, and just pour in Bard afterward. Paladin 1 gives very little outside of armor, so if you're taking that first, may as well grab smite and a fighting style while you're there.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I did a dex-based version of this where I went bard3/paladin2/bard X; that worked out very well, but I certainly felt the lack of Extra Attack through early tier 2. For an explicitly melee version of this, I'd definitely look to grab Paladin2 right off the bat, and just pour in Bard afterward. Paladin 1 gives very little outside of armor, so if you're taking that first, may as well grab smite and a fighting style while you're there.

I thought about this build, and it definitely changes things a bit (for good and bad). Good is that, as you say, it enables you to start Bard as you don't need the armor. I'd probably stick with Bard until 6 if I did it. Bad is that it definitely makes a MAD character as I can currently dump Dex (A benefit of Str based is enhanced for me since we've taken the Dex benefit off of initiative at our table). Needing Chr, Con, Str, and Dex with point buy is punitive.
I'd be interested in what you did for fighting style: S+B or 2 weapon? 2 weapon seems like it would to some extent solve the issue of lack of extra attack as you'd have a second chance to smite. PAM with spear seems to me to be the best of both worlds in that you get a shield and still have the bonus action attack.

[CheddarChampion]

Anything else you see that a bard could do to take advantage of Blindfighting?

For bards specifically, it would mostly allow you to cast spells which require you to see your target on creatures that would be hidden, invisible, or heavily obscured (like in a blizzard). It would also help your defenses against such creatures.

As a Swords Bard, you could use mobile flourish to keep enemies in or move enemies into things like fog cloud or darkness. If you have extra attack, you could knock them prone or grapple them while they're inside. If they stay within they're blinded, if they move then you get an opportunity attack against them.

This is best used against mages. If you only do this to one enemy at a time then you're still a team player. It becomes more potent if you take the Sentinel feat.

[Goji_64]

Paladin 2, then see where the game takes you imo.

But then again, I do have a bias for paladins and never played a bard :smallbiggrin:

[Quietus]

I thought about this build, and it definitely changes things a bit (for good and bad). Good is that, as you say, it enables you to start Bard as you don't need the armor. I'd probably stick with Bard until 6 if I did it. Bad is that it definitely makes a MAD character as I can currently dump Dex (A benefit of Str based is enhanced for me since we've taken the Dex benefit off of initiative at our table). Needing Chr, Con, Str, and Dex with point buy is punitive.
I'd be interested in what you did for fighting style: S+B or 2 weapon? 2 weapon seems like it would to some extent solve the issue of lack of extra attack as you'd have a second chance to smite. PAM with spear seems to me to be the best of both worlds in that you get a shield and still have the bonus action attack.

I took S+B style; Defensive from Paladin, and Dueling from Bard. The MADness was actually the point, my wife and I were going into an AL game, she was playing a sorcadin and I wanted to do something similar but different. I have greater experience with optimization, so I chose to focus Dex specifically because it would make my stats tighter. In the long run, I actually had no issues with this, I went with a half-elf with the urchin background so we'd have lockpicks, plus a solid collection of skills available. I think I had a stat line of something like 13/16/14/9/8/16, and though we only reached level 11, I was raising Charisma first, because my role typically boiled down to casting one spell to shape the combat, and falling back on melee (or non-concentration spells) for round 2+. I always felt like I had something to contribute to the group, and even in that awkward level 5-7 gap, bards have plenty of spells that can redefine how a combat will play out.

If you don't have to worry about dex, that opens up 5 PB points that can be put into not having such noteworthy holes in your mental defense; your race will likely determine where that's best used. But I had a great time with the character, six skills with expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics made for a neat and unusual presence in both RP and in combat. With a Paladin-first Strength build, you could still do something similar, and your stats are more free to bump up abilities you want for RP; you could make this build work with more or less any race, it's just a matter of picking out what fits your concept best.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I took S+B style; Defensive from Paladin, and Dueling from Bard. The MADness was actually the point, my wife and I were going into an AL game, she was playing a sorcadin and I wanted to do something similar but different. I have greater experience with optimization, so I chose to focus Dex specifically because it would make my stats tighter. In the long run, I actually had no issues with this, I went with a half-elf with the urchin background so we'd have lockpicks, plus a solid collection of skills available. I think I had a stat line of something like 13/16/14/9/8/16, and though we only reached level 11, I was raising Charisma first, because my role typically boiled down to casting one spell to shape the combat, and falling back on melee (or non-concentration spells) for round 2+. I always felt like I had something to contribute to the group, and even in that awkward level 5-7 gap, bards have plenty of spells that can redefine how a combat will play out.

If you don't have to worry about dex, that opens up 5 PB points that can be put into not having such noteworthy holes in your mental defense; your race will likely determine where that's best used. But I had a great time with the character, six skills with expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics made for a neat and unusual presence in both RP and in combat. With a Paladin-first Strength build, you could still do something similar, and your stats are more free to bump up abilities you want for RP; you could make this build work with more or less any race, it's just a matter of picking out what fits your concept best.
1/2 Elf made a lot of sense here for you; the stat line would have been impacted with any other choice. Your description of your roll is pretty much what I had in mind, so sounds like my character should work. Spells will help cover the ranged issues that most Str based paladins have. Definitely a challenge in the level range you mention, but I think there is enough versatility there to cover delaying multi-attack and 3rd level spells.

[Quietus]

1/2 Elf made a lot of sense here for you; the stat line would have been impacted with any other choice. Your description of your roll is pretty much what I had in mind, so sounds like my character should work. Spells will help cover the ranged issues that most Str based paladins have. Definitely a challenge in the level range you mention, but I think there is enough versatility there to cover delaying multi-attack and 3rd level spells.

That's really the saving grace of those levels, yes. You have spells - not the most powerful ones yet, but perfectly useful ones. Hold Person stood out because I was in a module, but Command, Blindness/Deafness, and Faerie Fire were all equally useful. Also remember your Paladin spells will bump things up a little as well, getting you access to things like Bless and Wrathful Smite. That latter was HUGE in many fights. And by 5th, you might not have Extra Attack, but you do have flourishes; you need to use them sparingly at that level, but they ramp up quickly. Even without the Shield spell, and if you have to use Splint instead of full plate, you're looking at a base of 19 AC with splint and shield, and can add a d6 on top of that while increasing your foot speed; that's all incredibly handy. And at 7th level you have Hypnotic Pattern, which can straight shut down 3/4 of a fight pretty easily.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

That's really the saving grace of those levels, yes. You have spells - not the most powerful ones yet, but perfectly useful ones. Hold Person stood out because I was in a module, but Command, Blindness/Deafness, and Faerie Fire were all equally useful. Also remember your Paladin spells will bump things up a little as well, getting you access to things like Bless and Wrathful Smite. That latter was HUGE in many fights. And by 5th, you might not have Extra Attack, but you do have flourishes; you need to use them sparingly at that level, but they ramp up quickly. Even without the Shield spell, and if you have to use Splint instead of full plate, you're looking at a base of 19 AC with splint and shield, and can add a d6 on top of that while increasing your foot speed; that's all incredibly handy. And at 7th level you have Hypnotic Pattern, which can straight shut down 3/4 of a fight pretty easily.

Good point on the Bless; that's always a good one, particularly for a 1/2 caster as Cleric mostly wants to be using concentration for other things by 5th. Agreed also on AC; I tend to think Shield spell gets over-rated a bit on forums, particularly for 1/2 and 1/3 casters. You just don't have that many resources and if you don't have a 5 min adventuring day (we don't) then calculating AC based on Shield is optimistic at best.

[heavyfuel]

Getting Smite at 2 isn't worth getting Extra Attack only at 8. Go Bard 6 / Pally 2 / Bard X

Plus, Flourishes + Font of Inspiration is arguably better than Divine Smite anyway.

(sidenote: For some reason "Palard" sounds like a fish name. Like "You won't believe it, but we caught a 50 pound palard on the trip!" :smallbiggrin:)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Getting Smite at 2 isn't worth getting Extra Attack only at 8. Go Bard 6 / Pally 2 / Bard X

Plus, Flourishes + Font of Inspiration is arguably better than Divine Smite anyway.

(sidenote: For some reason "Palard" sounds like a fish name. Like "You won't believe it, but we caught a 50 pound palard on the trip!" :smallbiggrin:)

I think you might have missed my original post. I'm going Strength Based with a full Dex dump and need heavy armor so Pal 1 will be my first level. The Dex based discussion was regarding another poster's character.

[Quietus]

Good point on the Bless; that's always a good one, particularly for a 1/2 caster as Cleric mostly wants to be using concentration for other things by 5th. Agreed also on AC; I tend to think Shield spell gets over-rated a bit on forums, particularly for 1/2 and 1/3 casters. You just don't have that many resources and if you don't have a 5 min adventuring day (we don't) then calculating AC based on Shield is optimistic at best.

Your Concentration slot is definitely under strong competition, and Bless does eventually run out of steam, I find. But when it's only competing with level 1 or 2 spells, it holds up well, and it's memorized on the Paladin side, so if you decide you don't like it, it's a long rest to change it out. Very handy.