Thor seems pretty chaotic for having lawful clerics

[Da Beast]

He goes aroun knocking up godesses, parties drunk, uses the world as a dartboard for lightning bolts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) and blatantly breaks the rules that govern the world. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) Why would Durkon, one of the most lawful characters we've seen, follow such a chaotic deity?

[Darkspear]

My guess is because his pappy and his granpappy and his great-granpappy and so forth all worshiped Thor.

[Hood]

Durkon doesn't seem to know that Thor does some Chaotic things (like him talking about the storm being a divine sign in the Miko fight no. 1), or else isn't aware that there are any rules Thor is breaking (getting Thor's might on the Azure city wall).

Ignorance is bliss, right?

[mikeejimbo]

I've long considered this. The only thing I can think of is that Thor isn't Chaotic Good, but rather Neutral Good, and would allow Clerics one 'step' away.

[Mad Wizard]

My theory is that either there is no alignment restriction on clerics in the OotS world, or all clerics can be lawful, regardless of alignment (again, in the OotS world).

[MCerberus]

It seems like Thor really really likes getting drunk so some fudging would be in order to get LG clerics if they're dwarves.

[Chronos]

My theory is that either there is no alignment restriction on clerics in the OotS world,This has to be the answer. Not only does Thor have lawful clerics, but Loki has good clerics, too.

Minor SoD spoilers:Before the gods created the XP-fodder races, Loki complains that all of his (first-level) clerics do nothing but make holy water. Under standard D&D rules, evil clerics (and neutral clerics of evil deities) make unholy water, not holy water. And Loki is also confirmed as being evil in the book.

[Querzis]

Minor SoD spoilers:Before the gods created the XP-fodder races, Loki complains that all of his (first-level) clerics do nothing but make holy water. Under standard D&D rules, evil clerics (and neutral clerics of evil deities) make unholy water, not holy water. And Loki is also confirmed as being evil in the book.

Yeah, the giant just took out that silly one step away restriction on cleric. There is lots of different way to play an alignement, I dont see why a guy of any alignement coudnt worship a god of any alignement. If you are really lawfull and if your family (or race) god is chaotic, then its quite obvious your will worship that chaotic god since you, as a lawfull character, uphold tradition and do the duty of your family.

[Angafirith]

Yeah, the giant just took out that silly one step away restriction on cleric. There is lots of different way to play an alignement, I dont see why a guy of any alignement coudnt worship a god of any alignement. If you are really lawfull and if your family (or race) god is chaotic, then its quite obvious your will worship that chaotic god since you, as a lawfull character, uphold tradition and do the duty of your family.

To quote the deva, using chaotic means to fulfill lawful obligations is somewhat neutral. I think that it's fair to say to say that an otherwise lawful cleric that worships and essentially is an agent of a chaotic god would actually work out to be neutral.

Perhaps Thor has a certain code that he follows, that doesn't really mesh with what we'd expect to be law abiding or ordered?

[the_tick_rules]

it's worth noting that Thor is listed in deities and demigods as CG. also if you know much about mytological Thor he acts in what D&D would call a chaotic alignment.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the issue Brennus raises is not "Lawful clerics of Chaotic deities are against teh rules," but rather why would a stolid, Lawful Bland guy like Durkon pick a frat-party god like Thor? My guess is "because it's traditional". After all, in mythology, Thor created the dwarves, didn't he?

[factotum]

Seems to me the choices for dwarven worship are Thor, Loki or Odin--leastways, they're the only three we've definitely seen as being worshipped by them. So, it depends what alignment Odin is--if Durkon is more Good than he is Lawful he definitely wouldn't want to worship an Evil god, so the only question would then be, why didn't he choose to follow Odin?

[EvilJames]

I think the issue Brennus raises is not "Lawful clerics of Chaotic deities are against teh rules," but rather why would a stolid, Lawful Bland guy like Durkon pick a frat-party god like Thor? My guess is "because it's traditional". After all, in mythology, Thor created the dwarves, didn't he?
nope he didn't. I don't quite remenber where the norse dwarves were supposed to have come from, but they were not created by thor (probobly created about the same time as norse giants)

[Tass]

In norse mythology, the dwarfes were shaped from maggots in the flesh of Ymir from whos body the world is build. So there were not created, the sprang into being by them selves, and were only formed by odin and his brothers.

The article on wikipedia is rather good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_dwarves

By the way, in norse mythology loki seems more of chaotic neutral than truly evil.

[Serenity]

Yeah, but then he kills Balder and turns on the gods in Ragnarok. Plus, he is responsible for Fenris, the Midgard Serpent, and Hel.

[dsollen]

you forget every time Thor is chaotic he is also very drunk. Somehow I seem to think that dwarves may be more forgiving then most when it comes to being drunk (the only time dunkon really does something for himself is requesting that giant stein of beer from the forest bandits; cause no dwarf can resist beer.) Perhaps Thor is more neutral then we realize; tending towards lawfull with his farther while sober and only being chaotic when drunk?

of course the real answer would be 'because it's funny' but still...

[Fitzclowningham]

It certainly seems that all the members of Durkon's clan are Lawful, what with all the tradition and such. I'm also curious about how Durkon has a human deity, and yet found the world of humans almost impossibly strange at first.

All in all, I think it was a shortcut on Rich's part - using a god/mythos with which everyone was familiar as opposed to having to set up a whole new pantheon. At this point, it would just take too much work to retcon everything. I think it's just one of those things we should accept as given and move on.

[CatMarieS]

As was previously stated, Durkon is unaware of the true nature of his chosen deity.
Furthermore, it's probably an issue of "do as I say, not as I do," with regards to alignment.

[Querzis]

To quote the deva, using chaotic means to fulfill lawful obligations is somewhat neutral. I think that it's fair to say to say that an otherwise lawful cleric that worships and essentially is an agent of a chaotic god would actually work out to be neutral.

A chaotic leader doesnt make people neutral, otherwise all of Shojo paladins would count as neutral. Using chaotic means to fullfill lawfull obligation also strike me as neutral but there hes using lawfull means (whorshipping a god and do as he say) to fullfill lawfull obligation (his duty) I dont see how he could be more lawfull then that. I really dont see when Durkon ever used chaotic means.

Its not because a king is chaotic that all his loyal knight suddenly become neutral. Duty and loyalty to a chaotic leader (or god) is just as lawfull as duty and loyalty to a lawfull leader if not even more lawfull since, as a lawfull character, you dont agree with most of the things your leader do but you still stay loyal to him!

Durkon follow Thor BECAUSE hes lawfull. Thor is apparently his god and it really seems most of the dwarves worship him so hes not gonna throw away his traditions and his duty as a dwarf to worship the twelves gods.

Beside, all the norse gods are pretty chaotic in the first place so its not like he had any Lawfull god to follow.

[TheElfLord]

I'm also curious about how Durkon has a human deity, and yet found the world of humans almost impossibly strange at first

Thor isn't a human diety. He's a member of the one of the four orignainal divine Pantheons. Those Pantheon's divide the world up by geographic location, not race. The only racial dieties are those of the elves and goblionoids. Thor may look human to us, but whose not to say from the dwarves perspective he isn't just a really big, slightly thin dwarf? After all, the gods go beyond normal sizes and purportions.

[Gaiwecoor]

A chaotic leader doesnt make people neutral, otherwise all of Shojo paladins would count as neutral. Using chaotic means to fullfill lawfull obligation also strike me as neutral but there hes using lawfull means (whorshipping a god and do as he say) to fullfill lawfull obligation (his duty) I dont see how he could be more lawfull then that. I really dont see when Durkon ever used chaotic means.

I think Angafirith was saying that Thor was using Chaotic means to fulfill lawful obligations, thus making Thor a NG deity. With Thor as a NG deity, Durkon could easily worship him as a LG cleric.

[geekyhedgehog]

[QUOTE=dsollen;3522952]you forget every time Thor is chaotic he is also very drunk. Somehow I seem to think that dwarves may be more forgiving then most when it comes to being drunk (the only time dunkon really does something for himself is requesting that giant stein of beer from the forest bandits; cause no dwarf can resist beer.)[QUOTE]

As a question, have we ever actually seen Durkon get drunk?

[Fitzclowningham]

Good point, ElfLord.

[Yendor]

As a question, have we ever actually seen Durkon get drunk?
No. Well, ten beers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html)

[Telonius]

That's the equivalent of, what, grape juice for a human?

[sihnfahl]

That's the equivalent of, what, grape juice for a human?

Pretty much. Dwarves have two livers; you can only guess how fast they get rid of alcohol...

[VetMichael]

Seems to me the choices for dwarven worship are Thor, Loki or Odin--leastways, they're the only three we've definitely seen as being worshipped by them. So, it depends what alignment Odin is--if Durkon is more Good than he is Lawful he definitely wouldn't want to worship an Evil god, so the only question would then be, why didn't he choose to follow Odin?

Thor, Odin and Loki aren't the only one's available worship, since Sir and Freya are shown in HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

So i surmise one of the three possible reasons:

1) Dwarven tradition makes Durkon worship Thor
2) Thor is a God, yes, but he seems to get Drunk a lot (which may be a Deitific tradition) and that makes him a little more Chaotic - remember episodic behavior doesn't count, it's the overall, long run
3) Who will tell a God that they're violating the absolute laws of the alignment structure imposed by mortals? Remember, the Cleric of Freya rejected Elan's application (on the behalf of Banjo) to the Northern Pantheon, much to Odin's disappointment and dismay - thus proving that the "pantheon" as a static idea is a mortal-imposed rule, can not much the same be said about alignment restrictions?
Odin/Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html)

[Sc00by]

All in all, I think it was a shortcut on Rich's part - using a god/mythos with which everyone was familiar as opposed to having to set up a whole new pantheon. At this point, it would just take too much work to retcon everything. I think it's just one of those things we should accept as given and move on.

Rich has actually said as much.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6264#24) and more emphatically here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7283?#21)

[monty]

Thor, Odin and Loki aren't the only one's available worship, since Sir and Freya are shown in HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)


I see Thor, Loki, and who I assume to be one of the Vasir (possibly Freya); I don't see "Sir," though.

[bdh5533]

to me thor only is doing chaotic things when he's drunk.

since we don't see durkon drunk much we don't know if he turns chaotic as well

:smallbiggrin:

just a random thought though. probably more of a story telling device reason why this is. as the saying goes, don't let semantics get in the way of good plot!

[Tass]

I know norse mythologi does not have much to do with the ootsverse - the giant rule, not the Edda. But in the mythologi Thór is no more human than dwarf. Thor is an "As" (in my language... what would you say in english? probably the ancient form... eh... Aesir/Æsir? No that is the plural form, whatever), just one of the many types of beings along with humans and dwarfes, though the most "godlike" of them.

And why is it that he drinks beer all the time? Why not mead?

[Felixaar]

I think its mainly just for comedic purposes, to be honest.

[Khanderas]

Yeah, the giant just took out that silly one step away restriction on cleric. There is lots of different way to play an alignement, I dont see why a guy of any alignement coudnt worship a god of any alignement. If you are really lawfull and if your family (or race) god is chaotic, then its quite obvious your will worship that chaotic god since you, as a lawfull character, uphold tradition and do the duty of your family.
Well put.
and umm... thats all.

[VetMichael]

I see Thor, Loki, and who I assume to be one of the Vasir (possibly Freya); I don't see "Sir," though.

She's the one confronting Thor about a pregnant Freja. Since Sir is Thor's consort, she'd be a bit miffed about Freja's pregnancy.



I know norse mythologi does not have much to do with the ootsverse - the giant rule, not the Edda. But in the mythologi Thór is no more human than dwarf. Thor is an "As" (in my language... what would you say in english? probably the ancient form... eh... Aesir/Æsir? No that is the plural form, whatever), just one of the many types of beings along with humans and dwarfes, though the most "godlike" of them.

And why is it that he drinks beer all the time? Why not mead?


Right on!: I believe Aristotle once said "not at all similar are the race of Gods to the races of man"

[Avardion]

There's another explanation: We only see Thor when his actions radically differ from what Durkon&Co see him as doing, making them funny and therefore fair game for this comic.

[evileeyore]

It is quite possible Thor is NG and not CG. Thus keeping Durkon within a 1 step of his Alignment.

I know the Giant said he judt dropped the Alignment restrictions, but this is a possibility also.

[Arnen]

If I recall, at one point Durkon actually considers his "WWTD" wristband before discarding the thought. Says something about it rarely ever being good advice, I believe, after showing a drunken Thor shooting lightning bolts blindfolded. I don't know, is it really that important to agree with a god's personal lifestyle, compared to their teachings and powers and such? :smallconfused:

[Caledonian]

Durkon stated that WWTD really isn't as applicable as it's supposed to be, after he considered what Thor would do when faced with the Dungeon of Dorukan: shatter it into a million pieces, each no larger than a man's fist, with his power of the thunders, then go off and drink beer with pretty girls.

[Prince_Rohan]

I think of it as Ends & Means, this is how I justify it in my own head.
(Outside of that reality you are on your own...)

Ends:
Good = I want the world to be a better place
Neutral = Live and let live.
Evil = I am all that matters

Means:
Lawful = A structure of rules will secure the end result
Neutral = meh.
Chaotic = Anyway I can get the end result

So if chaotic good Thor says to the Dwarves "Go do good!" and some of them choose to do it in a lawful manner I'm cool with it.

[Greg]

I see Thor, Loki, and who I assume to be one of the Vasir (possibly Freya); I don't see "Sir," though.

Sif is mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html).

[monty]

Sif is mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html).

My point was that Sif wasn't in that picture. Besides, she's Thor's wife, so he wouldn't be worried if he got her pregnant.

[Chronos]

She's the one confronting Thor about a pregnant Freja. Since Sir is Thor's consort, she'd be a bit miffed about Freja's pregnancy.Uh, the one confronting Thor about the pregnant goddess is Loki, and the fertility goddess herself wasn't identified (apparently the Norse have a few fertility goddesses).

[VetMichael]

Uh, the one confronting Thor about the pregnant goddess is Loki, and the fertility goddess herself wasn't identified (apparently the Norse have a few fertility goddesses).

Why would Loki care if Thor got someone pregnant? I think that's Sif (sorry for the previous misspellings) and the default fertility goddess would be Freja. The Giant, at least as far as I can recall, hasn't ever drawn Loki and specifically referenced him as "Loki" (though he did draw Surtur).

[Kish]

Why would Loki care if Thor got someone pregnant? I think that's Sif (sorry for the previous misspellings) and the default fertility goddess would be Freja. The Giant, at least as far as I can recall, hasn't ever drawn Loki and specifically referenced him as "Loki" (though he did draw Surtur).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html

Even without that picture, I wouldn't expect Thor's consort to be a male deity with red eyes. "The default fertility goddess" is also not nearly enough of a basis to assume the goddess is Freya (on the contrary, I'd say--it makes Thor's not knowing she's a fertility goddess more of a stretch).

[Chronos]

Why would Loki care if Thor got someone pregnant?First, because Loki would never miss an opportunity to taunt Thor, regardless of whether it was any of his business or not (or perhaps especially if it's none of his business). Second, apparently one of the Norse fertility goddesses was married to Loki, so that might be Loki's wife with the baby bulge.

[hamishspence]

Which Loki are you doing? Some books do Loki as Thor's Brother, others as Odin/Wotan's brother, and the Odin ones are those that emphasize his role as Father of Monsters and Villain of the Ragnarok story.

I assume Loki is always mildly evil at best, but the early style stories have him as witty, tricky pal of Thors, and they adventure together.

[monty]

Which Loki are you doing? Some books do Loki as Thor's Brother, others as Odin/Wotan's brother, and the Odin ones are those that emphasize his role as Father of Monsters and Villain of the Ragnarok story.

I assume Loki is always mildly evil at best, but the early style stories have him as witty, tricky pal of Thors, and they adventure together.

Most myths I've seen have Loki as the giant that hangs around with the gods and turns against them when Ragnarok comes, so that's the one I usually think of.