Does anyone still use Mystic occasionally, or has it been pretty much given up on?

[Phhase]

I ask because personally, I love many of the things that Mystic represents, and can do. It is true that you can do pretty much anything - but I find that you do have to be stingy using your psi, since the tank runs dry pretty quick if you don't hold back.

For me, part of it is the flexibility it offers in fleshing out a character concept. I'm currently running a single classed Thri-Kreen Mystic with the Wu Jen aspect who mainly uses Mastery of Air and Mastery of Fire for fighting and flight, and uses the arcane flexibility that Wu Jen offers to bolster my defenses through Counterspell and Dispel Magic.

In completely different vein, I'm creating an Awakened mystic I'm calling Faceless Morrison who specs into the more mental aspects of the class, with things like Psychic Disruption and Assault flavored as tv-static-like energy. He's a detective that uses his head, both for deduction, and for fighting, and his face is always obscured in a tv-static cloud by Disguise Self (Probably through Mask of Many Faces).

Of course, I absolutely concede that there are some blatantly overpowered aspects of the class. Things like Nomadic Mind's Proficiency In Everything, and the ability to just entirely warp someone's personality with a failed check or two. But I think just scrapping the whole thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Once aberrant disciplines are pared away, what remains is still halfway decent, at least, for me. Anyone else?

[Dork_Forge]

I ask because personally, I love many of the things that Mystic represents, and can do. It is true that you can do pretty much anything - but I find that you do have to be stingy using your psi, since the tank runs dry pretty quick if you don't hold back.

For me, part of it is the flexibility it offers in fleshing out a character concept. I'm currently running a single classed Thri-Kreen Mystic with the Wu Jen aspect who mainly uses Mastery of Air and Mastery of Fire for fighting and flight, and uses the arcane flexibility that Wu Jen offers to bolster my defenses through Counterspell and Dispel Magic.

In completely different vein, I'm creating an Awakened mystic I'm calling Faceless Morrison who specs into the more mental aspects of the class, with things like Psychic Disruption and Assault flavored as tv-static-like energy. He's a detective that uses his head, both for deduction, and for fighting, and his face is always obscured in a tv-static cloud by Disguise Self (Probably through Mask of Many Faces).

Of course, I absolutely concede that there are some blatantly overpowered aspects of the class. Things like Nomadic Mind's Proficiency In Everything, and the ability to just entirely warp someone's personality with a failed check or two. But I think just scrapping the whole thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Once aberrant disciplines are pared away, what remains is still halfway decent, at least, for me. Anyone else?

I haven't used it in a while but I absolutely love it and hate that it got discarded. All it needed was some post UA polish and it would have been fine and the whole pain of learning new mechanics would have gone away quickly.

We could have had an entire supplement for Psionics by now, premiering the Mystic alongside the two feats and the subclasses from Tasha's.

[Kane0]

Im totally fine with it,but i'm the DM and my players arent that interested

[KorvinStarmast]

... hate that it got discarded. All it needed was some post UA polish and it would have been fine and the whole pain of learning new mechanics would have gone away quickly.

We could have had an entire supplement for Psionics by now, premiering the Mystic alongside the two feats and the subclasses from Tasha's. I concur, and wish they'd taken the next step because it would have, hopefully, led to Darksun.

[Warder]

It's the best class design 5e has seen so far, imho. It wasn't a finished class design, but Mystic is the most fun I've had playing any D&D character after we did some custom nerfs and tweaks here and there. The current campaigns I play in don't allow it but it has more to do with psionics not being allowed in the settings and not the actual class itself. I'm sure we'll return to it at some point.

[carrdrivesyou]

WOTC basically ripped it apart. We now have the Soulknife Rogue, Psi Warrior Fighter, some feats, and a few other bits. It was a solid class that needed some basic grammar polish and it would have been perfect for release. I was really hyped for it, but WOTC disappointed me with their choices. I doubt we will ever see it in official content, but there are DMs who still allow it at the table.

[PhantomSoul]

It's the best class design 5e has seen so far, imho. It wasn't a finished class design, but Mystic is the most fun I've had playing any D&D character after we did some custom nerfs and tweaks here and there. The current campaigns I play in don't allow it but it has more to do with psionics not being allowed in the settings and not the actual class itself. I'm sure we'll return to it at some point.

I'd love to see what tweaks/nerfs you made, if it's handily written up!

[Warder]

I'd love to see what tweaks/nerfs you made, if it's handily written up!

I wish I had the notes handy! This was in the before times, so it's actually printed out somewhere at our DM's house, heh.

From memory, we made a lot of smaller changes to certain abilities (numbers, etc), but the biggest issue we had with Mystic through playtesting was how they snowballed. You'd get more disciplines constantly, and as your psi limit increased you unlocked new abilities from all of your disciplines at the same time. It wasn't that bad in tier 1, but by the time tier 2 rolled around the options at your disposal started getting really out of hand. I think we reduced the amount of disciplines you had access to, except for the Soul Knife which was the weakest subclass. We also experimented with making some disciplines opposed to others so you could pick one but not the other.

Other changes... we made some quality of life fixes for Soul Knives, and our DM was really adamant on making psionics counterspellable so we added that too even though I personally didn't think it was necessary. There was more, but I don't think half of the changes we made were necessary to make the class work, it was just stuff that made sense at our particular table. The discipline snowballing issue was the Mystic's biggest problem, the other stuff was minor.

[PhantomSoul]

I wish I had the notes handy! This was in the before times, so it's actually printed out somewhere at our DM's house, heh.

From memory, we made a lot of smaller changes to certain abilities (numbers, etc), but the biggest issue we had with Mystic through playtesting was how they snowballed. You'd get more disciplines constantly, and as your psi limit increased you unlocked new abilities from all of your disciplines at the same time. It wasn't that bad in tier 1, but by the time tier 2 rolled around the options at your disposal started getting really out of hand. I think we reduced the amount of disciplines you had access to, except for the Soul Knife which was the weakest subclass. We also experimented with making some disciplines opposed to others so you could pick one but not the other.

Other changes... we made some quality of life fixes for Soul Knives, and our DM was really adamant on making psionics counterspellable so we added that too even though I personally didn't think it was necessary. There was more, but I don't think half of the changes we made were necessary to make the class work, it was just stuff that made sense at our particular table. The discipline snowballing issue was the Mystic's biggest problem, the other stuff was minor.

Much appreciated and duly noted! (I'm also glad to see that the concern [snowballing] isn't just an empty concern!)

[Warder]

Much appreciated and duly noted! (I'm also glad to see that the concern [snowballing] isn't just an empty concern!)

Definitely not, it was the one big concern we had. I played a Soul Knife who got absurdly difficult to kill, with stuff like Inertial Armor, Frozen Resilience and Cloak of Air, all of which could be combined because only Cloak of Air used concentration. I think another way to go other than having opposed disciplines is to add concentration to more of the abilities so they couldn't stack together quite as high.

[MrStabby]

I have mixed views. Honestly, I think it still needed a lot of work.

The build-a-bear approach was too broad and let you span too many different capabilities.

The class was too efficient. With the huge breadth of abilities and shear number of options coupled with everything being based on the points system not spell slots it meant it was too easy to pick the perfect ability for a given circumstance that solved the problem with minimal resource usage.

A lot of abilities were int save based, which for a given damage level was very powerful.

My biggest gripe though is that too many abilities felt a bit formulaic: X save, y shape, z damage, q condition...

It was very cool, but needed quite a lot of work still.

[Dork_Forge]

I have mixed views. Honestly, I think it still needed a lot of work.

The build-a-bear approach was too broad and let you span too many different capabilities.

The class was too efficient. With the huge breadth of abilities and shear number of options coupled with everything being based on the points system not spell slots it meant it was too easy to pick the perfect ability for a given circumstance that solved the problem with minimal resource usage.

A lot of abilities were int save based, which for a given damage level was very powerful.

My biggest gripe though is that too many abilities felt a bit formulaic: X save, y shape, z damage, q condition...

It was very cool, but needed quite a lot of work still.

I think you're overestimating the efficiancy of the points system, Mystics had a huge drought of at will power compared to fullcasters to accommodate that. Where a caster might use a cantrip on a lesser confrontation it was a very real thing that a Mystic would have to burn points unless they wanted to use weapons or spent their very limited talents on offensive abilities.

[8wGremlin]

It needed tweaking, and some shuffling round of powers, and a little rewording but that was it.
I've played and DMd it, but as others have said, it isn't that bad, doesn't over shadow other casters, and has a real issue with some at will powers, but then there is always a crossbow.

It would be good for it to be cleaned up and re-released in my opinion, so far it was the closest to 1st, 2nd and 3rd (3.5) edition Psionics that we've had so far.

[Person_Man]

I think it had all the building blocks of a good class. It just needed to be simplified and rebalanced. My personal suggestion would be to make it more like the 3.5 binder.

Eliminate most of the non-discipline class features. Then each discipline gives you a package of 5 powers - an at will talent/cantrip, one Action ability, one passive (which requires Concentration if has any combat use), one Bonus action, one Reaction, designed to work synergistically. Everything except the at-will and non-combat passives run on power points. And you can only have one discipline active at any time, which increases as you gain levels, but maxes at 4ish at high levels.

Then you just need to do the math on progression, so that youÂ’re getting roughly the same number of resources as a Warlock or Monk.

[ATHATH]

I think it had all the building blocks of a good class. It just needed to be simplified and rebalanced. My personal suggestion would be to make it more like the 3.5 binder.

Eliminate most of the non-discipline class features. Then each discipline gives you a package of 5 powers - an at will talent/cantrip, one Action ability, one passive (which requires Concentration if has any combat use), one Bonus action, one Reaction, designed to work synergistically. Everything except the at-will and non-combat passives run on power points. And you can only have one discipline active at any time, which increases as you gain levels, but maxes at 4ish at high levels.

Then you just need to do the math on progression, so that youÂ’re getting roughly the same number of resources as a Warlock or Monk.
I really do love this class design pitch. Then again, I might be biased because I'm a fan of Binders (and the UA Mystic).

[Warder]

It just needed to be simplified and rebalanced.

Simplification is exactly what I didn't think it needed - 5e has a lot of design room left over for a more complex class, and Mystic fit that niche perfectly. It wasn't even that complex in actual play, it just had a lot of options for customization.

[Dork_Forge]

Simplification is exactly what I didn't think it needed - 5e has a lot of design room left over for a more complex class, and Mystic fit that niche perfectly. It wasn't even that complex in actual play, it just had a lot of options for customization.

Yeah I think there was a lot of plate fright over the prospect of the Psi point system, but it was actually intuitive to use once you actually read and tried it.

I think if they just went the EK/AT route of restricting most of the choices to the subclass disicplines and a couple of free choices it would have worked well.

[Trustypeaches]

I tried Mystic in a game once.

At level one I had access to an action called "Whirlwind" which affected all targets in a 20 ft. radius sphere. On a failed Strength save, they took 1d6 bludgeoning damage and were moved to an unoccupied point in the sphere. I used this to launch creatures 30-40 ft into the air, adding an extra 3d6/4d6 damage to the Whirlwind and knocking them all prone.

Basically, this Psionic Effect dealt half the damage of a fireball, knocked enemies prone, and cost only 2 psi points to perform.

Mystic is cool in concept but the UA material is horribly balanced.

[Dork_Forge]

I tried Mystic in a game once.

At level one I had access to an action called "Whirlwind" which affected all targets in a 20 ft. radius sphere. On a failed Strength save, they took 1d6 bludgeoning damage and were moved to an unoccupied point in the sphere. I used this to launch creatures 30-40 ft into the air, adding an extra 3d6/4d6 damage to the Whirlwind and knocking them all prone.

Basically, this Psionic Effect dealt half the damage of a fireball, knocked enemies prone, and cost only 2 psi points to perform.

Mystic is cool in concept but the UA material is horribly balanced.

It's really not as bad as portrayed:

-at 1st level doing so takes half of your total daily resource.

-Str saves are generally decent saves for monsters

-It does nothing to a creature that saves (balance point)

-To get more fall damage you have to reduce the number of creatures you can potentially effect, though if a creature is small or medium it's impossible for it to take 4d6 fall damage. The sphere has to touch the creature to affect it, eating up 5ft at least of it and maxing that damage out at 3d6 instead.

I acutally had and used that Discipline frequently on my Immortal,but I think I used Whirlwind once in a game that ran 3rd to 7th. I was far more interested in Hungry Lightning, Cloud Steps, and Lightning Leap (this one was super cool).

[Trustypeaches]

It's really not as bad as portrayed:

-at 1st level doing so takes half of your total daily resource.
And full spellcasters only have 2 first level spells. I'd say Whirlwind is pretty powerful, comparatively.



-To get more fall damage you have to reduce the number of creatures you can potentially effect, though if a creature is small or medium it's impossible for it to take 4d6 fall damage. The sphere has to touch the creature to affect it, eating up 5ft at least of it and maxing that damage out at 3d6 instead.
I mean that's true, but that's still 4d6 damage + prone.

Not to mention any extra damage you can squeeze out of forced movement (Wall of Fire, etc.) or tossing them into other spells like Web. I don't think there's any effect in base 5e that gives you this much control over an enemy's positioning, at least not any available at such a low level.

[DarknessEternal]

So, in summation you think a 1st level spell that does:

-5' radius (up to 4 medium creatures)
-Str save:
-success = no effect
-fail = 1d6 vs flight speed targets, +3d6 and prone vs non-fliers

Those are the parameters you're judging it on?

A way more powerful aim point is 5' in the air so:
-a whole bunch of enemies
-Str save:
-success = no effect
-fail = 1d6 vs flight speed targets, +1d6 and prone vs non-fliers

Earth Tremor has a 10' radius around the caster, so an even larger radius and has 1d6 and prone with Dex save for no effect. Is Whirlwind more powerful than Earth Tremor? A very tiny bit, but it also has no higher level effect.

[Dork_Forge]

And full spellcasters only have 2 first level spells. I'd say Whirlwind is pretty powerful, comparatively.

Full casters have more at will options (cantrips) and a decent chunk of them have ritual casting.


I mean that's true, but that's still 4d6 damage + prone.

Not to mention any extra damage you can squeeze out of forced movement (Wall of Fire, etc.) or tossing them into other spells like Web. I don't think there's any effect in base 5e that gives you this much control over an enemy's positioning, at least not any available at such a low level.

If they fail... It's more powerful because it's save or suck on a strong monster save. 1st level spells offer less raw power, but you're always guaranteed to do at least some damage with something like Thunderwave.

You're also assuming the DM will rule fall damage for picking up and dropping the monsters, that isn't part of the ability and is DM dependent I certainly wouldn't allow that without the monster getting a check or save to land on their feet, if they fall from a decent height at all.

[DarknessEternal]

I was far more interested in Hungry Lightning,

Single target Xd8 save for half is complete trash.

[Dork_Forge]

Single target Xd8 save for half is complete trash.

Disadvantage on the save for heavy armor wearers is nice and you can't just compare it to spells in the same way because of how the Mystic is laid out. You can spend a single Psi point and get guaranteed damage on something that isn't immune to lightning, that's nice for a class that doesn't have access to as many at will options.

[Trustypeaches]

You're also assuming the DM will rule fall damage for picking up and dropping the monsters, that isn't part of the ability and is DM dependent I certainly wouldn't allow that without the monster getting a check or save to land on their feet, if they fall from a decent height at all.
I would argue that assigning fall damage to for a 30 ft+ drop is pretty reasonable.

It's out of line with the intended power level of the feature, but that's how it should function RAW.

[Dork_Forge]

I would argue that assigning fall damage to for a 30 ft+ drop is pretty reasonable.

It's out of line with the intended power level of the feature, but that's how it should function RAW.

Since it isn't built into the mechanics of the Discipline, it's entirely DM discretion whether that would be automatic or a save/check is given.

As for the amount of damage, you'll never hit 4d6 fall damage unless you drop them into a ditch or something and by trying to maximise the fall damage you minimise the potential amount of targets you can hit. Any creature larger than medium cuts right through this problem, the fall damage they'd take (if any) would be negligible.

If Whirlwind becomes a problem then imo that's the DM letting it be used beyond it's intent more than a problem with the discipline itself.

[Trustypeaches]

Since it isn't built into the mechanics of the Discipline, it's entirely DM discretion whether that would be automatic or a save/check is given.
That would be a reasonable house rule, given that the amount of damage falling adds to this Discipline is out of line for the resource cost, but by RAW it's hard to argue why a 30 ft.+ drop shouldn't deal any falling damage.

From the sounds of it though, your tables might just handle falling damage differently than I'm used to.



As for the amount of damage, you'll never hit 4d6 fall damage unless you drop them into a ditch or something and by trying to maximise the fall damage you minimise the potential amount of targets you can hit.
Yes I know, but it's 3d6 falling damage + 1d6 bludgeoning damage from the base effect = 4d6. That's why I said it's pretty easy to deal half the damage of a fireball.



Any creature larger than medium cuts right through this problem, the fall damage they'd take (if any) would be negligible.
...what? Where do you get the idea that being larger makes you take less damage from falling? If anything it would be the opposite, unless the creature has physiology specifically designed for large jumps or falls.

[Dork_Forge]

That would be a reasonable house rule, given that the amount of damage falling adds to this Discipline is out of line for the resource cost, but by RAW it's hard to argue why a 30 ft.+ drop shouldn't deal any falling damage.

From the sounds of it though, your tables might just handle falling damage differently than I'm used to.

I'd go more ruling than house rule. This came up last week in a different form: PC wanted to jump off the 20ft high roof he was on to pursie the creature they were fighting. So I gave him an acrobatics check to see if he 'stuck the landing' which can be seen as a roll with the fall landing if that's better for versimillitude, of fell prone and took 2d6. That's more engaging and satisfaying than 'you just fall on your face and it hurts' and feels appropriate for something like using Whirlwind to extort fall damage.




Yes I know, but it's 3d6 falling damage + 1d6 bludgeoning damage from the base effect = 4d6. That's why I said it's pretty easy to deal half the damage of a fireball.

I don't agree with pretty easy, you're relying on failing a Str save and having 40ft vertically to work with. For outside battles that aren't under a tree canopy sure, but inside battles? Those are some high ceilings...


...what? Where do you get the idea that being larger makes you take less damage from falling? If anything it would be the opposite, unless the creature has physiology specifically designed for large jumps or falls.



It's about having the space to make them fall and whether or not you're just clipping the larger creature (if a mixed size battle, like exists in... a lot if not most modules). If you put the 'floor' of the sphere on the ground then a medium and lower creature has potentially 35ft to fall. A large creature has 30ft to fall, a huge creature 25ft and so on. If you move the sphere above them further then you're even more dependent on large open spaces and clear lines of sight.


Even if you can leverage fall damage, it's a high risk/reward heavily reliant on the environment and a tactic that can be used against the party too. Oh all the potentially egregious things that need polish Whirlwind is... eh? a blip at most.

[Formion]

I think it had all the building blocks of a good class. It just needed to be simplified and rebalanced. My personal suggestion would be to make it more like the 3.5 binder.

Eliminate most of the non-discipline class features. Then each discipline gives you a package of 5 powers - an at will talent/cantrip, one Action ability, one passive (which requires Concentration if has any combat use), one Bonus action, one Reaction, designed to work synergistically. Everything except the at-will and non-combat passives run on power points. And you can only have one discipline active at any time, which increases as you gain levels, but maxes at 4ish at high levels.

Then you just need to do the math on progression, so that youÂ’re getting roughly the same number of resources as a Warlock or Monk.


That is kind of how I approached it when I homebrewed it. The class literally depended on disciplines for everything with the class archetypes giving small bonuses on specific types of disciplines. That and the class progression was based on opening new ways to switch disciplines more efficiently.

[carnomancy]

The Mystic development being discontinued has been a sore spot for me. There was no way that the third UA was going to be balanced when they expanded the max level from 10 to 20 and added 3 subclasses worth of material. They abandoned it too early, too capriciously.

That said, I was willing to go with the Psionics as a subclass idea that led to what we got in Tasha's. At the time it seemed like an efficient way to do things, as long as you paired a Psionic discipline with a class that already fit the playstyle. We did not get that though.

The Aberrant mind is a good subclass, but full casters can't really divorce themselves from their casting so the feeling is always a little bit off. The Psychic Warrior is OK for a Psychokinesis subclass, but it's very limited Psychokinesis. The Astral Self feels fine as a callback to the Shaper, but that has more to do with the Shaper being a newer discipline heavily dependent on the Astral Construct power for it's identity. The Soulknife is the worst one, with no cohesive theme and some mechanical clutter that impairs playability. The Soulknife was just one of those things that I didn't want to see back.

So only Psychokinesis (the Kineticist/Savant) and Metacreativity (the Shaper) were the only disciplines that got anything. Telepathy (the Telepath), Psychometabolism (the Egoist), Psychoportation (the Nomad and Clairsentience (the Seer) all got nothing. That just feels bad as a Psionics fan.

To me, this devalues Dungeons and Dragons. I've always loved the DnD take on psychic powers. Circling back to the question, I think I'm giving up of 5th edition as a whole, at least until something changes.

[Dork_Forge]

The Mystic development being discontinued has been a sore spot for me. There was no way that the third UA was going to be balanced when they expanded the max level from 10 to 20 and added 3 subclasses worth of material. They abandoned it too early, too capriciously.

That said, I was willing to go with the Psionics as a subclass idea that led to what we got in Tasha's. At the time it seemed like an efficient way to do things, as long as you paired a Psionic discipline with a class that already fit the playstyle. We did not get that though.

The Aberrant mind is a good subclass, but full casters can't really divorce themselves from their casting so the feeling is always a little bit off. The Psychic Warrior is OK for a Psychokinesis subclass, but it's very limited Psychokinesis. The Astral Self feels fine as a callback to the Shaper, but that has more to do with the Shaper being a newer discipline heavily dependent on the Astral Construct power for it's identity. The Soulknife is the worst one, with no cohesive theme and some mechanical clutter that impairs playability. The Soulknife was just one of those things that I didn't want to see back.

So only Psychokinesis (the Kineticist/Savant) and Metacreativity (the Shaper) were the only disciplines that got anything. Telepathy (the Telepath), Psychometabolism (the Egoist), Psychoportation (the Nomad and Clairsentience (the Seer) all got nothing. That just feels bad as a Psionics fan.

To me, this devalues Dungeons and Dragons. I've always loved the DnD take on psychic powers. Circling back to the question, I think I'm giving up of 5th edition as a whole, at least until something changes.

The telepath and soul knife got combined, the Mystic Soulknife had literally nothing but the knives and fewer disciplines, which would likely be there to support them. The Rogue version combines the knives with Telepathy superior to anything we've seen before outside of Rary's Telepathic Bond.

Some of their other abilities also skirt to more direct manipulation of the mind/affecting it to some degree. IMO it ended up being a much better rounded subclass and is probably one of the best Rogue subclasses.

Inserting the Soulknife per the UA into a subclass would be... really empty feeling and hyper focused. I have no idea what these things were like in previous editions though, and tbh older editions vary enough from 5e I'm not sure I could effectively parse their power accurately anyway.

[SharkForce]

kinda surprised nobody mentioned this in this thread. someone on these forums has been working on turning the mystic into a finished product for a while now. I haven't looked at the most recent version of their work, but here it is:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?593739-Psionics-Reloaded-the-Psion-and-Psychic-Warrior-ALL-DISCIPLINES-NOW-COMPLETE-(PEACH)

looks like the author also decided to add a bit more as well:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634983-Strange-Thoughts-Psionics-Reloaded-Continued

[Dork_Forge]

kinda surprised nobody mentioned this in this thread. someone on these forums has been working on turning the mystic into a finished product for a while now. I haven't looked at the most recent version of their work, but here it is:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?593739-Psionics-Reloaded-the-Psion-and-Psychic-Warrior-ALL-DISCIPLINES-NOW-COMPLETE-(PEACH)

looks like the author also decided to add a bit more as well:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634983-Strange-Thoughts-Psionics-Reloaded-Continued

From glancing over that it's so far removed from the UA that it may as well be it's own thing.

Separately it's also a harder sell to a DM to use homebrew than a UA.

[Merudo]

I'm so glad the Mystic got abandoned, it was ridiculously overpowered at level 9-10, far more than the Moon Druid ever was.

The main issue is that Mystics learn new powers at a quadratic rate: every 2 levels, they learn a new discipline, and they get more powers out of each discipline they already know because their Psi Limit increases. This is on top of the Mystic Order features they get at level 1, 3 and 6.

The other problem is that Mystic powers cover nearly spell casting niche out there. Hence by the time they know 7 disciplines at level 10 they can pretty much replicate the Bard, Cleric, Druid & Sorcerer all at once.

They can nova like no one else, dumping all their psionic points into 7 psi abilities (equivalent to level 5 spells). A level 10 Mystic has 64 psi point, enough to activate 9 such abilities during a single fight. A mystic can use an action and bonus action power in the same turn, while other spellcasters are limited to a cantrip if they use a bonus action spell.

Some powers, mostly costing 7 psi, are just also flat out broken, too. Here is a list of some of the most obscene powers out there:


Obscene Powers

Aura of Victory (1–7 psi; conc., 10 min.). As a bonus action, you project psionic energy until your concentration ends. The energy fortifies you and your allies when your enemies are felled; whenever an enemy you can see is reduced to 0 hit points, you and each of your allies within 30 feet of you gain temporary hit points equal to double the psi points spent to activate this effect. (can give 14 THP to the whole group each time an enemy is killed. In large fight, this can be better than Twilight Sanctuary)

Bestial Transformation: As a bonus action, you alter your physical form to gain different characteristics. When you use this ability, you can choose one or more of the following effects. Each effect has its own psi point cost. Add them together to determine the total cost. This transformation lasts for 1 hour, until you die, or until you end it as a bonus action.

Amphibious (2 psi). You gain gills; you can breathe air and water.
Climbing (2 psi). You grow tiny hooked claws that give you gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed.
Flight (5 psi). Wings sprout from your back. You gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed.
Keen Senses (2 psi). Your eyes and ears become more sensitive. You gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Perfect Senses (3 psi). You gain a keen sense of smell and an instinct to detect prey. You can see invisible creatures and objects within 10 feet of you, even if you are blinded.
Swimming (2 psi). You gain fins and webbing between your fingers and toes; you gain a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.
Tough Hide (2 psi). Your skin becomes as tough as leather; you gain a +2 bonus to AC.

(You can give yourself flight, as well as a +2 bonus to AC, without concentration!)

Incite Panic (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, choose up to eight creatures you can see within 90 feet of you that can see you. At the start of each of a target’s turns before your concentration ends, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target is frightened until the start of its next turn, and you roll a die. If you roll an odd number, the frightened target moves half its speed in a random direction and takes no action on that turn, other than to scream in terror. If you roll an even number, the frightened target makes one melee attack against a random target within its reach. If there is no such target, it moves half its speed in a random direction and takes no action on that turn. This effect ends on a target if it succeeds on three saving throws against it.
(buffed up Confusion that can target any 8 creatures within 90 feet of you, and without any chance of them acting normally, and requiring 3 saving throws to end the spell!)

Invoke Awe (7 psi; conc., 10 min.). As an action, you exert an aura that inspires awe in others. Choose up to 5 creatures you can see within 60 feet of you. Each target must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw or be charmed by you until your concentration ends. While charmed, the target obeys all your verbal commands to the best of its ability and without doing anything obviously self-destructive. The charmed target will attack only creatures that it has seen attack you since it was charmed or that it was already hostile toward. At the end of each of its turns, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success.
(Dominate Monster with 5 targets, and with an intelligence save! There is a saving throw after every turn, but not when damage is received).

Mind Storm (5 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 6d8 psychic damage and suffers disadvantage on all saving throws until the end of your next turn. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage. You can increase the damage by 1d6 per additional psi point spent on this ability.
(decent damage + disadvantage on all saving throw until the end of your next turn! And people think Bard of Eloquence is good!)

Overwhelming Attack (7 psi). As an action, choose up to five allies you can see within 60 feet of you. Each of those allies can use their reaction to take the Attack action. You choose the targets of the attacks. (can easily double the DPR of the entire party for 1 round)

Psionic Restoration: this discipline is basically equivalent to learning Cure Wound, Lesser Restauration, Greater Restauration, & Revivify

Psychic Crush (7 psi): As an action, you create a 20-foot cube of psychic energy within 120 feet of you. Each creature in that area must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d8 psychic damage and is stunned until the end of your next turn. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage.
(mass stun with an intelligence save, and very respectable damage too)

Thunder Clap (7 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Thunder energy erupts in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point. Each creature in that area must make Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d6 thunder damage, and it is stunned until the end of your next turn. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage. (like Psionic Static except it stuns for a round)

Victory Before Battle (7 psi). When you roll initiative, you can use this ability to grant yourself and up to five creatures of your choice within 60 feet of you a +10 bonus to initiative. (you thought the Oath of Watcher aura was good?)

Whirlwind (2 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Winds howl in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point. Each creature in the sphere must succeed on a Strength saving throw or take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and be moved to an unoccupied space of your choice in the sphere. Any loose object in the sphere is moved to an unoccupied space of your choice within it if the object weighs no more than 100 pounds.
(cheap power that can totally reorganize the battlefield, as well as drop all enemies into a hazard or a spell effect such as Web. You can also move them upward for some extra fall damage & the prone condition.)

World of Horror (7 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, choose up to six creatures within 60 feet of you. Each target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d6 psychic damage, and it is frightened until your concentration ends. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage. While frightened by this effect, a target’s speed is reduced to 0, and the target can use its action, and any bonus action it might have, only to make melee attacks. The frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
(completely disables up to 6 creatures within 60 feet of you from a Charisma saving throw)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly, the Nova potential of Mystic didn't bother me nearly as much as the sheer flexibility and coverage did. Paladins can (offensively) nova even harder than the Mystic, dumping all 9 spell slots in 3 rounds (or less, if OAs are triggered). Just means that they're less useful the rest of the day.

Though I'll give you that the Mystic's nova potential is a lot higher, due entirely to the nature of the powers that they can grab, what with the AoE abilities and sneaky concentration-free abilities. But once they're out of PP, their at-will abilities are pretty goddamn awful. I've played a Mystic (at low levels, mind you), and I found myself monitoring my usage extremely carefully.

EDIT: What the Mystic needs is either cutting down on Disciplines known or not letting them access everything in each discipline simply by picking it. That or toss the entire thing out the window, which seems to be what they've done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

From glancing over that it's so far removed from the UA that it may as well be it's own thing.
It's not... that far off? Sorta? You can still see the skeleton... :smallredface: Call it a fourth iteration of the subsystem, if you like. Most of the big changes came from integrating the later "psi dice" idea with the original point-based casting. (And breaking the Mystic up into separate classes and subclasses, obviously. But I'm 95% sure that was always the intention). The most important changes are pretty simple:

Switching them to short-rest casters, and extending psi limit to points/round, throttles the nova potential back down to something normal.
Dividing the list of Disciplines into "Psion, Psychic Warrior, and Wu Jen" gets rid of the excess versatility.
Warlock-style "High Arcana Psionics" mean they scale properly at higher levels.

The actual content of the Disciplines is pretty much the same, just with better balance-- you could take my rewritten versions and plop them onto the original Mystic with no real issues.


Separately it's also a harder sell to a DM to use homebrew than a UA
That is unfortunately true. But soon it'll be a third-party book on DM's Guild! That's... okay, that's not really any easier a sell.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm so glad the Mystic got abandoned, it was ridiculously overpowered at level 9-10, far more than the Moon Druid ever was.

The main issue is that Mystics learn new powers at a quadratic rate: every 2 levels, they learn a new discipline, and they get more powers out of each discipline they already know because their Psi Limit increases. This is on top of the Mystic Order features they get at level 1, 3 and 6.

The other problem is that Mystic powers cover nearly spell casting niche out there. Hence by the time they know 7 disciplines at level 10 they can pretty much replicate the Bard, Cleric, Druid & Sorcerer all at once.

The Wizard already covers every niche apart from healing and is a full caster with a significant once a day slot regen and ritual casting. They also get an absurd number of spells with the ability to learn even more.

If you are so concerned about the Mystic you should really dislike the Wizard.


They can nova like no one else, dumping all their psionic points into 7 psi abilities (equivalent to level 5 spells). A level 10 Mystic has 64 psi point, enough to activate 9 such abilities during a single fight.

Yes you can nova, but their at will is weaker than any full caster, from experience if you're novaing your points away then you'll struggle the rest of the day.


Some powers, mostly costing 7 psi, are just also flat out broken, too. Here is a list of some of the most obscene powers out there:

We have very different ideas about obscene or broken, so let's review then



Obscene Powers

Aura of Victory (1–7 psi; conc., 10 min.). As a bonus action, you project psionic energy until your concentration ends. The energy fortifies you and your allies when your enemies are felled; whenever an enemy you can see is reduced to 0 hit points, you and each of your allies within 30 feet of you gain temporary hit points equal to double the psi points spent to activate this effect. (can give 14 THP to the whole group each time an enemy is killed. In large fight, this can be better than Twilight Sanctuary)

This is not in any way shape or form better than Twilight Sanctuary except maybe by being a bonus action. It isn't much temp hp at a time, the nature of the trigger is unreliable and will likely mean a lot of potential temp hp is wasted.

Twilight Sanctuary doesn't drain casting resources, scales far too well (the temp hp is far better than Aura of Victory), is reliably activated, can automatically end potent conditions and can be done twice per short rest.

It's not even a contest. I'd easily put the protector turret from the Artillerist above this Disicipline too.


Bestial Transformation: As a bonus action, you alter your physical form to gain different characteristics. When you use this ability, you can choose one or more of the following effects. Each effect has its own psi point cost. Add them together to determine the total cost. This transformation lasts for 1 hour, until you die, or until you end it as a bonus action.

Amphibious (2 psi). You gain gills; you can breathe air and water.
Climbing (2 psi). You grow tiny hooked claws that give you gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed.
Flight (5 psi). Wings sprout from your back. You gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed.
Keen Senses (2 psi). Your eyes and ears become more sensitive. You gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Perfect Senses (3 psi). You gain a keen sense of smell and an instinct to detect prey. You can see invisible creatures and objects within 10 feet of you, even if you are blinded.
Swimming (2 psi). You gain fins and webbing between your fingers and toes; you gain a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.
Tough Hide (2 psi). Your skin becomes as tough as leather; you gain a +2 bonus to AC.

(You can give yourself flight, as well as a +2 bonus to AC, without concentration!)

This is a nice one that was fun to have, but you're only looking at the surface. It costs the same as Fly, but only applies to you and will likely be half (or even less) of the speed of Fly. It's a give and take, not just straight better.

Tough Hide is nice, but the Mystic's AC isn't great to begin with, there's plenty of other things that are more problematic (level 1 dip in Forge Cleric for self made +1 armor and access to heavy armor prof?)


Incite Panic (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, choose up to eight creatures you can see within 90 feet of you that can see you. At the start of each of a target’s turns before your concentration ends, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target is frightened until the start of its next turn, and you roll a die. If you roll an odd number, the frightened target moves half its speed in a random direction and takes no action on that turn, other than to scream in terror. If you roll an even number, the frightened target makes one melee attack against a random target within its reach. If there is no such target, it moves half its speed in a random direction and takes no action on that turn. This effect ends on a target if it succeeds on three saving throws against it.
(buffed up Confusion that can target any 8 creatures within 90 feet of you, and without any chance of them acting normally, and requiring 3 saving throws to end the spell!)

Confusion is a 10ft radius sphere, ten targets vs that is pretty much a wash since you'll rarely if ever hit that cap and you're dependent on seeing them unlike Confusion.

Yes it takes three saves to end it, but the effect is round by round, if they saved it isn't bothering them anyway and it's still concentration.

This isn't broken at all, cut the range back a bit and cut the potential targets down for appearances sake and be done with it. This isn't a win the encounter scenario, the creature can still randomly smack PCs.



Invoke Awe (7 psi; conc., 10 min.). As an action, you exert an aura that inspires awe in others. Choose up to 5 creatures you can see within 60 feet of you. Each target must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw or be charmed by you until your concentration ends. While charmed, the target obeys all your verbal commands to the best of its ability and without doing anything obviously self-destructive. The charmed target will attack only creatures that it has seen attack you since it was charmed or that it was already hostile toward. At the end of each of its turns, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success.
(Dominate Monster with 5 targets, and with an intelligence save! There is a saving throw after every turn, but not when damage is received).

This is not Dominate Monster by any stretch:

-It relies on charmed, there's plenty of creatures immune to it and any Elf/Half Elf based block will have advantage on the save

-You can't make them attack anyone that hasn't attacked you after the charm, or that they would have attacked anyway.

Dominate Monster blows this out of the water for control, it's far more useful as an out of combat charm. Again, not really seeing the hubub here, you over estimated it.


Overwhelming Attack (7 psi). As an action, choose up to five allies you can see within 60 feet of you. Each of those allies can use their reaction to take the Attack action. You choose the targets of the attacks. (can easily double the DPR of the entire party for 1 round)

If the party has their reaction available and are both in poisition to make use of, and can competently make use of the Attack action. Melee character not in range or suffers from overkill, casters likely included that can't do anything most likely (or at least nothing particularly worth while).

It's literally impossible for this to double the DPR of your party, it'd require a party of nothing but martials/gishs besides the Mystic, and the Mystic is spending their action not doing damage.

Hugely overrated.


Psionic Restoration: this discipline is basically equivalent to learning Cure Wound, Lesser Restauration, Greater Restauration, & Revivify

I really don't understand your point here? None of those effects are over powered and it leaves a Mystic healer sub par compared to any other fullcaster healer...

-At 9th level a Mystic (assuming they aren't a Soulknife) will know 7 Disciplines

-At 9th level a Cleric will know 23 spells assuming they only took Wis to +4

A Cleric can learn all of the spells that Discipline emulates whilst still having plenty left to spread around. All Clerics get access to better higher level healing options. Life Clerics get all of that for free and are better at using it.

This isn't overpowered and doesn't make the Mystic anything by an 'okay' healer.


Thunder Clap (7 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Thunder energy erupts in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point. Each creature in that area must make Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d6 thunder damage, and it is stunned until the end of your next turn. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage. (like Psionic Static except it stuns for a round)

So... worse than Synaptic Static in pretty much every way then?

-Con is a stronger mosnter save by far than Int

-Psychic is generally going to be a better damage type

-Stunned for a turn is crap compared to the massive debuff SS imparts.

Again you've drawn a comparison to a spell, where the spell is better.


Victory Before Battle (7 psi). When you roll initiative, you can use this ability to grant yourself and up to five creatures of your choice within 60 feet of you a +10 bonus to initiative. (you thought the Oath of Watcher aura was good?)

Oath of the Watchers is free and always on. This is costing the equivalent of a 4th level spell slot for an increased chance to win initiative.

A massive expenditure before the combat has even started, why is this so broken to you?


Whirlwind (2 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Winds howl in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point. Each creature in the sphere must succeed on a Strength saving throw or take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and be moved to an unoccupied space of your choice in the sphere. Any loose object in the sphere is moved to an unoccupied space of your choice within it if the object weighs no more than 100 pounds.
(cheap power that can totally reorganize the battlefield, as well as drop all enemies into a hazard or a spell effect such as Web. You can also move them upward for some extra fall damage & the prone condition.)

Near useless to you once your party gets mixed up on the battlefield and targets a fairly strong monster save.

Whilst RAW, it is entirely within the purview of the DM for fall damage, because that is clearly not the intention of this UA ability.


World of Horror (7 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, choose up to six creatures within 60 feet of you. Each target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d6 psychic damage, and it is frightened until your concentration ends. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage. While frightened by this effect, a target’s speed is reduced to 0, and the target can use its action, and any bonus action it might have, only to make melee attacks. The frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
(completely disables up to 6 creatures within 60 feet of you from a Charisma saving throw)

This does not completely disable a creature that fails its save. There will likely be melee PCs and they will still be able to smack them.

There's 20 pages of monsters immune to the frightened condition on the D&D Beyond search.


Honestly, the Nova potential of Mystic didn't bother me nearly as much as the sheer flexibility and coverage did. Paladins can (offensively) nova even harder than the Mystic, dumping all 9 spell slots in 3 rounds (or less, if OAs are triggered). Just means that they're less useful the rest of the day.

Though I'll give you that the Mystic's nova potential is a lot higher, due entirely to the nature of the powers that they can grab, what with the AoE abilities and sneaky concentration-free abilities. But once they're out of PP, their at-will abilities are pretty goddamn awful. I've played a Mystic (at low levels, mind you), and I found myself monitoring my usage extremely carefully.

EDIT: What the Mystic needs is either cutting down on Disciplines known or not letting them access everything in each discipline simply by picking it. That or toss the entire thing out the window, which seems to be what they've done.

I think if they just flipped it around so your free picks are limited it'd be fine. From experience playing one you may end up with a lot of abilities, but since you can't pick and choose like spells you'll not have the right tool, or tool you want a lot of the time.


It's not... that far off? Sorta? You can still see the skeleton... :smallredface: Call it a fourth iteration of the subsystem, if you like. Most of the big changes came from integrating the later "psi dice" idea with the original point-based casting. (And breaking the Mystic up into separate classes and subclasses, obviously. But I'm 95% sure that was always the intention). The most important changes are pretty simple:

Switching them to short-rest casters, and extending psi limit to points/round, throttles the nova potential back down to something normal.
Dividing the list of Disciplines into "Psion, Psychic Warrior, and Wu Jen" gets rid of the excess versatility.
Warlock-style "High Arcana Psionics" mean they scale properly at higher levels.

The actual content of the Disciplines is pretty much the same, just with better balance-- you could take my rewritten versions and plop them onto the original Mystic with no real issues.


That is unfortunately true. But soon it'll be a third-party book on DM's Guild! That's... okay, that's not really any easier a sell.

From my perspective:

-I'd rather they be a long rest class personally, but I'm not precious about that
-I'd rather the Psi limit be as is, yes the nova capacity is there, but burning your points away is easy. It makes balancing things more interesting and fun.
-I don't like the idea of 'high psionics,' one of the things I enjoyed about the Mystic design was that it abandoned linear power progression. After a certain point you didn't just get more powerful 'spells' instead you got the ability to play around with multiple concentration effects. It was a different form of scaling and one that encouraged creativity rather than just choosing your highest level slots.
-I'm eh about splitting it up, I think I'd rather it just stay as one chassis and function like the Artificer. The martial subclasses got what they need and everyone got subclass spells to branch into their niches.
-I really didn't like the Psi Die. Like really didn't like it. (assuming you mean the UA version that randomly changed size, I like the published subclasses).

I tend not to look too much into these things because I doubt a DM would let me play homebrew/DMsGuild material and as a DM I have no interest in running other people's 'brew, especially when I already like the Mystic.

To be clear though this isn't a criticism of your design or capabilities, I'm just not the audience for it.

[Jerrykhor]

I've played the Mystic Soulknife for 2 years+, though she died in the end. It was great fun, my favourite ability is Telekinetic Barrier, which is basically Wall of Force lite. I try to swap out a new Discipline for testing whenever i level up, but i swap out Mastery of Force.

It's kind of surprising to me when people discuss what makes Mystic OP, and not many mention Nomadic Mind's Psychic Focus. That thing is broken as hell. The way its written, you can be good at any skill you want, buy all the tools because you can use them, read any language you want, even if its an obscure/ancient/alien language. Its bonkers. Even wizards are not this versatile. What's that, wizard boy, You got Comprehend language? I mean sure, are you gonna spend a spell slot to cast it? Because i can instantly read this ancient text and we ain't got 10 minutes for your stupid ritual.

Psychic Assault is also nuts with the power creeped Cone of Cold that deals psychic damage to a weaker save at 1 level lower. Its a great problem solver since most D&D problems involve lots of monster.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's a really thorough breakdown. Nicely done. While I do agree with many of your points, there are a few that I feel like I must dispute.

This is not in any way shape or form better than Twilight Sanctuary except maybe by being a bonus action. It isn't much temp hp at a time, the nature of the trigger is unreliable and will likely mean a lot of potential temp hp is wasted.

Twilight Sanctuary doesn't drain casting resources, scales far too well (the temp hp is far better than Aura of Victory), is reliably activated, can automatically end potent conditions and can be done twice per short rest.

It's not even a contest. I'd easily put the protector turret from the Artillerist above this Disicipline too.
Trust me when I say that if the closest comparison that you can come up with is Twilight Sanctuary, that's indicative of an issue right there. It's widely held to be one of the most powerful CDs, having fallen victim to a heavy dose of power creep. I agree that it's not as good as Merudo calls it out to be, but it's not as weak as you're trying to imply either. If the only two possible comparisons are the two best in-combat sources of THP, then that speaks for itself.

Tough Hide is nice, but the Mystic's AC isn't great to begin with, there's plenty of other things that are more problematic (level 1 dip in Forge Cleric for self made +1 armor and access to heavy armor prof?)
If we're talking about Mystic being broken, we don't need to pull stupidly powerful dips into this. That's like having a conversation about Bards and bringing up Hexlocks. Yes, that's a big boost, but it's not what we're talking about.

This is not Dominate Monster by any stretch:

-It relies on charmed, there's plenty of creatures immune to it and any Elf/Half Elf based block will have advantage on the save

-You can't make them attack anyone that hasn't attacked you after the charm, or that they would have attacked anyway.

Dominate Monster blows this out of the water for control, it's far more useful as an out of combat charm. Again, not really seeing the hubub here, you over estimated it.
Dominate Monster is also based off of charm, so you can't throw that in favour of either ability. I'd call it 'different but equal'; it has its flaws, but you can also just command the creature to sit there and tank hits from the party, and it doesn't get a save every time. It's the more combat-friendly version of dominate monster, and I wouldn't say that it gets blown out of the water by it.

If the party has their reaction available and are both in poisition to make use of, and can competently make use of the Attack action. Melee character not in range or suffers from overkill, casters likely included that can't do anything most likely (or at least nothing particularly worth while).

It's literally impossible for this to double the DPR of your party, it'd require a party of nothing but martials/gishs besides the Mystic, and the Mystic is spending their action not doing damage.

Hugely overrated.This is actually my biggest contention right here. It's not 'make a single attack', this is 'take the Attack action.' Is it useful in a party of pure casters? Goodness no, but you wouldn't take it if that was the case. You can't seriously sit there and comment that the Mystic is using their turn to do "zero damage". They're enabling a massive DPR spike from their party. Note how it doesn't require a melee attack, and you get to pick the targets of the attacks, so I'm going to disagree with the overkill part. If there's one wounded enemy, you're not going to use it. You'd use it to open the fight, try and whittle down the numbers as much as possible before the other creatures can take a turn.

Assume that the Mystic replaces the Wizard, for example, in the standard 4-man party. You've got the Cleric, the Mystic, the Fighter and the Rogue. Fighter and Rogue can both make huge use of this, and even the Cleric could theoretically find some use in it.

Really though, I feel like you're missing the big picture here. The issue (imo) is that that entire list above, that you needed to pull a half dozen characters (of some of the best classes, notable cleric) to match? A single Mystic can do all of that. I'm not talking about Schrodinger's Mystic, with whatever Disciplines needed when we need them, I literally mean that a single Mystic could have most of the abilities mentioned above at the same time. And that's the problem.

[Dork_Forge]

That's a really thorough breakdown. Nicely done. While I do agree with many of your points, there are a few that I feel like I must dispute.

Thank you, and I can see I made a boo boo here and there and need to clarify some stuff.


Trust me when I say that if the closest comparison that you can come up with is Twilight Sanctuary, that's indicative of an issue right there. It's widely held to be one of the most powerful CDs, having fallen victim to a heavy dose of power creep. I agree that it's not as good as Merudo calls it out to be, but it's not as weak as you're trying to imply either. If the only two possible comparisons are the two best in-combat sources of THP, then that speaks for itself.

The problem here is that the only real things to compare it to are the more powerful ones. The other notable sources of temp hp are Inspiring Leader and the Celestial Warlock abilitiy, but both of those are different because you're dishing out temp hp around rests (usually) rather than repeatedly in combat. So there's only the Twilight and Artrillerist's abilities viable to make a somewhat apples to apples comparison with.

I can see where you're coming from, but I want to clarify that the Twilight CD is so far ahead (at least in my estimation) that i don't think your point is that big a deal. You'd have to strip the condition removal and make it a 4th level spell to make it somewhat close, and even with that huge nerf the temp hp is still better and more reliable.

This is really just a case of the only fish in this pool are big fish, rather than only big fish are comparable.


If we're talking about Mystic being broken, we don't need to pull stupidly powerful dips into this. That's like having a conversation about Bards and bringing up Hexlocks. Yes, that's a big boost, but it's not what we're talking about.

My point was that as far as AC bumps go, it's okay but meh. The Mystic doesn't have a high AC to begin with, Tough Hide is nice, but it isn't pushing you into heavy armor w/shield territory. Even the Order of the Avatar isn't pushing impressive AC numbers with it.


Dominate Monster is also based off of charm, so you can't throw that in favour of either ability. I'd call it 'different but equal'; it has its flaws, but you can also just command the creature to sit there and tank hits from the party, and it doesn't get a save every time. It's the more combat-friendly version of dominate monster, and I wouldn't say that it gets blown out of the water by it.

The charmed part was a whoopsie on my part, I forgot Dominate Monster was a charm effect, the weakness I mentioned applies to both.

I wouldn't say it's more combat friendly, it's harder to get the creatures to attack for you and sitting there and taking hits most definitely constitutes something 'self destructive' to the creature, I wouldn't expect that to work as a player and I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Dominate Monster on the other hand has no such clause about not allowing things 'self destructive'.


This is actually my biggest contention right here. It's not 'make a single attack', this is 'take the Attack action.' Is it useful in a party of pure casters? Goodness no, but you wouldn't take it if that was the case. You can't seriously sit there and comment that the Mystic is using their turn to do "zero damage". They're enabling a massive DPR spike from their party. Note how it doesn't require a melee attack, and you get to pick the targets of the attacks, so I'm going to disagree with the overkill part. If there's one wounded enemy, you're not going to use it. You'd use it to open the fight, try and whittle down the numbers as much as possible before the other creatures can take a turn.

Assume that the Mystic replaces the Wizard, for example, in the standard 4-man party. You've got the Cleric, the Mystic, the Fighter and the Rogue. Fighter and Rogue can both make huge use of this, and even the Cleric could theoretically find some use in it.

This is partly just me needing to explain what I meant:

The claim was 'nearly double the party's DPR' and that isn't true. Let's use your example party.

The Mystic is liekly to harm some form of offense, if they are using this, then they are not using that offense, straight off the bat this is a deficit that needs to be overcome to hit the nearly double DPR claim. The Cleric might be able to make an attack, but it'll be meh at best, especially if it isn't a Divine Strike Cleric.

That's two out of four PCs that are not contributing their standard amount of damage. Hitting the claim is literally impossible excpet for perhaps some edge cases.

Now here's the real rub: It lets you take the Attack action, but it doesn't allow you to move or use your object interaction. So:

-if a PC isn't in a position to hit someone, they can't benefit

-If a PC isn't holding a weapon, they can't really benefit, say the Cleric wielding a shield with an open hand for casting which I think is fairly typical.

-If the PC has already used their reaction, they can't benefit from it. Like the example Rogue using Uncanny Dodge

Overkill: If a melee PC kills a creature on the first hit, normally they'd just move to hit again, that isn't possible on this reaction, so an attack goes to waste, which I see as 'overkill'

The white room potential of this Discipline is nice, but it relies too heavily on too many factors (including party composition) to really get anywhere near the broken territory it was proclaimed as. And even then, it took the equivalent of a 4th level slot, your action, and the stars lining up.


Really though, I feel like you're missing the big picture here. The issue (imo) is that that entire list above, that you needed to pull a half dozen characters (of some of the best classes, notable cleric) to match? A single Mystic can do all of that. I'm not talking about Schrodinger's Mystic, with whatever Disciplines needed when we need them, I literally mean that a single Mystic could have most of the abilities mentioned above at the same time. And that's the problem.

I really don't think it's really much of a problem and already said in this thread I think they should work like AT/EK where their free discipline picks are limited.

I think the half dozen (best classes) thing is also...not really fair. We're talking about spells basically, I'm not going to mention half the classes in the game in that comparison because they either don't natively get spells or don't get options that powerful if they go to 20th level.


Some context though:

-This was meant to be the most broken parts of the Mystic and primarily relied on the 7 Psi options. That's level 9+. Fullcasters are not only competitive with that, they keep getting more and more powerful options as the levels go up, where as the Mystic doesn't.

-Going through and picking the most broken things is primarily just a whiteroom exercise in criticism. Could the Mystic have all of those things at once? Yeah, but I sincerely doubt anyone playing a Mystic would organically choose that mish mash of disicplines.

-Versatility is already a thing: Wizards get pretty much every option but healing, Artificers cover a lot of ground just in their available spells, every single Bard gets Magical Secrets and a list that's only really missing damage/summoning, Clerics cover a lot of ground whislt having domain spells that overlap, just look at an Arcana Cleric.

Extreme versatility in single classed characters has been a thing for a long time now, the Mystic doesn't really push that envelope. The only thing it has over the Wizard for example is healing, and the healing discipline is so anemic that you're basically a healer-lite, not even holding a candle to a real healer, that's still capable of doing otherthings themselves.



Last side thought on the quadratic thing from a few posts ago (I know this wasn't you, just thought about it): So what if the Mystic's available options jump up? Casters get new spells every level for the most part, jumping up is arguably worse not better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

From my perspective:


-I'd rather they be a long rest class personally, but I'm not precious about that
-I'd rather the Psi limit be as is, yes the nova capacity is there, but burning your points away is easy. It makes balancing things more interesting and fun.
-I don't like the idea of 'high psionics,' one of the things I enjoyed about the Mystic design was that it abandoned linear power progression. After a certain point you didn't just get more powerful 'spells' instead you got the ability to play around with multiple concentration effects. It was a different form of scaling and one that encouraged creativity rather than just choosing your highest level slots.
-I'm eh about splitting it up, I think I'd rather it just stay as one chassis and function like the Artificer. The martial subclasses got what they need and everyone got subclass spells to branch into their niches.
-I really didn't like the Psi Die. Like really didn't like it. (assuming you mean the UA version that randomly changed size, I like the published subclasses).


For points 1 and 2: Between the expanded psi limit and the revised powers, there's not really a need to make them short-rest. I mostly stuck with the paradigm because it gives you a bit more design room for fun at-will abilities--see the Warlock verses the Cleric, for example. And because I like having fun at-will abilities.

For point 3: I'll be honest, that was a lazy decision--continuing to copy the Warlock chassis was easier than writing another four levels' worth of abilities for each Discipline, or trying to work out how the multiple-concentration thing balances against other spellcasters. But also the subsystem already introduces so many new ideas and mechanics that I figured sticking with a familiar framework would increase the chance GMs would actually allow it.

For point 4: Psi Warrior could have been a Bladesinger-style "martial subclass of a full caster," but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Wu Jen--that one needed to be separate, the flavor on the Mastery of ______ Disciplines was radically different from everything else. "I'm the Avatar" and "I'm psychic" aren't a great conceptual match, and trying to keep the one as a subset of the other was too painful. Just as importantly, I wanted psionics to feel like its own distinct style of magic, like it did in 3.5, rather than just one weird class.

For point 5: Fear not, my psi dice don't change size randomly--they work pretty much exactly like the version in the published subclasses, except the die size changes with level. You roll one or more psi dice when you do a thing, and you expend some number when you use a powerful ability.


I tend not to look too much into these things because I doubt a DM would let me play homebrew/DMsGuild material and as a DM I have no interest in running other people's 'brew, especially when I already like the Mystic.

To be clear though this isn't a criticism of your design or capabilities, I'm just not the audience for it.

No worries, I'm not offended or anything. I just like talking about design philosophies.

---------------------

EDIT: On an unrelated note, I'd love to hear what you think of my psionic Four Elements Monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634983-Strange-Thoughts-Psionics-Reloaded-Continued) subclass. That's probably the thing whose balance I'm most uncertain on--rather than a separate pool of psi dice, they get to use ki points and roll their martial arts die any time a psi die roll is called for.

[Dork_Forge]

For points 1 and 2: Between the expanded psi limit and the revised powers, there's not really a need to make them short-rest. I mostly stuck with the paradigm because it gives you a bit more design room for fun at-will abilities--see the Warlock verses the Cleric, for example. And because I like having fun at-will abilities.

For point 3: I'll be honest, that was a lazy decision--continuing to copy the Warlock chassis was easier than writing another four levels' worth of abilities for each Discipline, or trying to work out how the multiple-concentration thing balances against other spellcasters. But also the subsystem already introduces so many new ideas and mechanics that I figured sticking with a familiar framework would increase the chance GMs would actually allow it.

Completely understand where you're coming from, the Warlock is a very elegant design in many ways. I also like having at will abilities, though I also like having lots of resources.


For point 4: Psi Warrior could have been a Bladesinger-style "martial subclass of a full caster," but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Wu Jen--that one needed to be separate, the flavor on the Mastery of ______ Disciplines was radically different from everything else. "I'm the Avatar" and "I'm psychic" aren't a great conceptual match, and trying to keep the one as a subset of the other was too painful. Just as importantly, I wanted psionics to feel like its own distinct style of magic, like it did in 3.5, rather than just one weird class.

I think the conceptual issue could have been partially resolved by restricting the free choice disicplines, but I very much see why you did it.

I think in a single class the Mystic is a bit... beastly, but I think it's more realistic then getting multiple classes to address a single overarching niche (psionics). I just hink of it as, well it'd launch with like two or three then grow out from there anyway.


For point 5: Fear not, my psi dice don't change size randomly--they work pretty much exactly like the version in the published subclasses, except the die size changes with level. You roll one or more psi dice when you do a thing, and you expend some number when you use a powerful ability.

The die size changes with level in the published version too, that sounds nice. You could make a martial adept style feat that handed out a Psi die with some limited options too.


No worries, I'm not offended or anything. I just like talking about design philosophies.

Best part of talking on a board like this!

---------------------


EDIT: On an unrelated note, I'd love to hear what you think of my psionic Four Elements Monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634983-Strange-Thoughts-Psionics-Reloaded-Continued) subclass. That's probably the thing whose balance I'm most uncertain on--rather than a separate pool of psi dice, they get to use ki points and roll their martial arts die any time a psi die roll is called for.

No problem, I'll have a gander, depending on if someone replies after this post or not it'll either be in an edit to this post or a new post.

Edit: Like the PHB 4E it seems mostly concerned with options, where are those collected?

From a glance through it's not the easiest to parse, but it doesn't look out of line my concerns thus far are:

-Does this play with the Monk, or like the 4E (mostly) channel you into something different entirely?

-I don't like the 17th level ability, it is a neat base concept, but I don't think it warrants expanding upon, especially not as a capstone. Seems very unlikely to come up.


As someone interested in both Psionics and elemental effects this is the question that comes to mind:

I like ice magic and effects. Using this am I able to focus on what I like, or am I forced to dabble in the full avatar spectrum of being a jack of all master of none (which is essentially what the Avatar is)?

[Kane0]

Seconding Grod's work, he's done a grand job.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Edit: Like the PHB 4E it seems mostly concerned with options, where are those collected?
Talents and Disciplines are both found in the main psionics document, sorry. The discipline powers are pretty much what they were in the original Mystic; the Talents and Focuses associated with them are:

Air: The Focus lets you use your Wisdom to determine how well you jump, and the Talent is single-target at-will Feather Fall.
Earth: The Focus lets you ignore difficult terrain and Spider Climb surfaces made of earth and stone, and the Talent is a single-target "save or fall down and take a die of bludgeoning damage."
Fire: The Focus gives you resistance to fire damage and makes you glow, and the Talent is Create Bonfire.
Water: The Focus gives you waterbreathing and a swim speed, and the Talent is a ranged spell attack for damage-and-knockback.

The optional Talents let you do things like use an action to grant yourself AC (Armor of Frost), blast dudes with elemental damage (Elemental Burst/Smite), boost Strength checks (Strength of Stone), and extend how far you can hear and smell (Whispering Wind).


-Does this play with the Monk, or like the 4E (mostly) channel you into something different entirely?

On round 1 I'd expect them to cast a buff or place a battlefield control effect, after which they'd dash in like a normal Monk. But with flaming fists.


-I don't like the 17th level ability, it is a neat base concept, but I don't think it warrants expanding upon, especially not as a capstone. Seems very unlikely to come up.

Yeah, fair. How about a free Flurry of Blows after taking an action to use a Talent or Discipline?


As someone interested in both Psionics and elemental effects this is the question that comes to mind:

I like ice magic and effects. Using this am I able to focus on what I like, or am I forced to dabble in the full avatar spectrum of being a jack of all master of none (which is essentially what the Avatar is)?]

The Four Elements monk is specifically a generalist, all about the balance between the four elements. The Wu Jen base class gets to specialize in one particular element, and avoid any they don't like. As a water specialist, you might have, oh... Mastery of Ice, Mastery of Water, Mastery of Wood (https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Huu), and Psionic Restoration.


Seconding Grod's work, he's done a grand job.
:smallredface: Thanks

[Dork_Forge]

Talents and Disciplines are both found in the main psionics document, sorry. The discipline powers are pretty much what they were in the original Mystic; the Talents and Focuses associated with them are:

Air: The Focus lets you use your Wisdom to determine how well you jump, and the Talent is single-target at-will Feather Fall.
Earth: The Focus lets you ignore difficult terrain and Spider Climb surfaces made of earth and stone, and the Talent is a single-target "save or fall down and take a die of bludgeoning damage."
Fire: The Focus gives you resistance to fire damage and makes you glow, and the Talent is Create Bonfire.
Water: The Focus gives you waterbreathing and a swim speed, and the Talent is a ranged spell attack for damage-and-knockback.

The optional Talents let you do things like use an action to grant yourself AC (Armor of Frost), blast dudes with elemental damage (Elemental Burst/Smite), boost Strength checks (Strength of Stone), and extend how far you can hear and smell (Whispering Wind).

It sounds interesting, if I joined a table where the the DM said this was available I'd at least read through it and be tempted, and if I actually got to play more in generally I'd probably play it.

I remember my Immortal just super hero landing every drop because of the Mastery of Air focus ability, it was fun.


On round 1 I'd expect them to cast a buff or place a battlefield control effect, after which they'd dash in like a normal Monk. But with flaming fists.

That's a nicer balance I think than what the 4E manages.


Yeah, fair. How about a free Flurry of Blows after taking an action to use a Talent or Discipline?

I'd say go further than that, remember if they're burning Ki then they're eligible for a single weapon attack with Tasha's rules anyway, and this is the capstone.

Perhaps something like the Wizard's capstone where they get something either at will or a few times for free that would normally cost them Ki?


The Four Elements monk is specifically a generalist, all about the balance between the four elements. The Wu Jen base class gets to specialize in one particular element, and avoid any they don't like. As a water specialist, you might have, oh... Mastery of Ice, Mastery of Water, Mastery of Wood (https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Huu), and Psionic Restoration.

Yeah I like the sound of that, Mastery of Wood was fun (though I only used like half of it).

[Merudo]

The Wizard already covers every niche apart from healing and is a full caster with a significant once a day slot regen and ritual casting. They also get an absurd number of spells with the ability to learn even more.


The Wizard has superior utility via Ritual Casting, but Mystic blows the Wizard away in power, at least at level 9-10.

Also I don't quite understand why you think the Wizard has an "absurd number of spells"? A level 9 Wizard can prepare 14 spells. Meanwhile a Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind will have 20 spells known. A Cleric will have 24 spells prepared.

For the record most Mystic disciplines provide 4 powers (not including the Psychic Focus). So a level 9 Mystic will know about 28 powers, twice as much as the number of spells can Wizard can prepare.



Yes you can nova, but their at will is weaker than any full caster, from experience if you're novaing your points away then you'll struggle the rest of the day.


That's just plain false - their at will is definitely not weaker than all full casters, and Psionic Talents are very competitive with cantrips. Mind Thrust for example does 1d10 psychic damage if the target fails an intelligence save, and Mind Slam & Psychic Hammer offer decent control.

Starting level 8, you also add your Intelligence modifier to their rolls.

Please show me how that's weaker than what the Bard & Druid can do at will.



Aura of Victory (1–7 psi; conc., 10 min.). As a bonus action, you project psionic energy until your concentration ends. The energy fortifies you and your allies when your enemies are felled; whenever an enemy you can see is reduced to 0 hit points, you and each of your allies within 30 feet of you gain temporary hit points equal to double the psi points spent to activate this effect. (can give 14 THP to the whole group each time an enemy is killed. In large fight, this can be better than Twilight Sanctuary)



It's not even a contest. I'd easily put the protector turret from the Artillerist above this Disicipline too.

The difference is of course that the cannons of the Artillerist are pretty much their main feature, while the Mystic gets ~27 other powers. Also the Protector cannon only heal in a range of 10 feet, while the Aura of Victory heals in a radius of 30 feet.



Bestial Transformation: As a bonus action, you alter your physical form to gain different characteristics. When you use this ability, you can choose one or more of the following effects. Each effect has its own psi point cost. Add them together to determine the total cost. This transformation lasts for 1 hour, until you die, or until you end it as a bonus action.

Amphibious (2 psi). You gain gills; you can breathe air and water.
Climbing (2 psi). You grow tiny hooked claws that give you gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed.
Flight (5 psi). Wings sprout from your back. You gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed.
Keen Senses (2 psi). Your eyes and ears become more sensitive. You gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Perfect Senses (3 psi). You gain a keen sense of smell and an instinct to detect prey. You can see invisible creatures and objects within 10 feet of you, even if you are blinded.
Swimming (2 psi). You gain fins and webbing between your fingers and toes; you gain a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.
Tough Hide (2 psi). Your skin becomes as tough as leather; you gain a +2 bonus to AC.

(You can give yourself flight, as well as a +2 bonus to AC, without concentration!)



This is a nice one that was fun to have, but you're only looking at the surface. It costs the same as Fly, but only applies to you and will likely be half (or even less) of the speed of Fly. It's a give and take, not just straight better.

Tough Hide is nice, but the Mystic's AC isn't great to begin with, there's plenty of other things that are more problematic (level 1 dip in Forge Cleric for self made +1 armor and access to heavy armor prof?)

To be frank I feel you are being a tad dishonest here? Surely you can see how concentration-less flying is amazing? A large proportion of enemies have poor or no ranged options. And races with built-in flight such as the Aarakocra & Winged Tiefling rank at the top of every serious guide - they are so good that AL bans them.

As for the AC, it certainly can be great. Mystics get Light Armor proficiency, so upgrading to Half-Plate + Shield (AC 19) is just a feat away. If that's not desirable, you can pick Order of the Avatar to get Medium Armor + Shield proficiency at level 1 like the Hexblade.

With Half Plate, Shield and Tough Hide, you get AC 21 without using up concentration, which is great and roughly on par with the Bladesinger.

By the way, you can dip Forge Cleric with the Mystic, too.



Incite Panic (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, choose up to eight creatures you can see within 90 feet of you that can see you. At the start of each of a target’s turns before your concentration ends, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target is frightened until the start of its next turn, and you roll a die. If you roll an odd number, the frightened target moves half its speed in a random direction and takes no action on that turn, other than to scream in terror. If you roll an even number, the frightened target makes one melee attack against a random target within its reach. If there is no such target, it moves half its speed in a random direction and takes no action on that turn. This effect ends on a target if it succeeds on three saving throws against it.
(buffed up Confusion that can target any 8 creatures within 90 feet of you, and without any chance of them acting normally, and requiring 3 saving throws to end the spell!)



Confusion is a 10ft radius sphere, ten targets vs that is pretty much a wash since you'll rarely if ever hit that cap and you're dependent on seeing them unlike Confusion.


Are you seriously saying a 10ft radius sphere that can affect allies is comparable to up to 8 creatures within 90 feet of the caster?

Have you ever used the Light Cleric's Radiance of the Dawn, or the Destructive Wave spell? These can easily affect a massive number of enemies. Incite Panic has similar targeting, but it has three times the range.

How can you say this is a wash with Confusion's 10ft radius sphere (same as Shatter)? Wow.



Yes it takes three saves to end it, but the effect is round by round, if they saved it isn't bothering them anyway and it's still concentration.

True but Incite Panic might affect them the next turn. Not so for Confusion.



This isn't broken at all, cut the range back a bit and cut the potential targets down for appearances sake and be done with it.

For appearances? Any scaling back would be quite impactful.



Invoke Awe (7 psi; conc., 10 min.). As an action, you exert an aura that inspires awe in others. Choose up to 5 creatures you can see within 60 feet of you. Each target must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw or be charmed by you until your concentration ends. While charmed, the target obeys all your verbal commands to the best of its ability and without doing anything obviously self-destructive. The charmed target will attack only creatures that it has seen attack you since it was charmed or that it was already hostile toward. At the end of each of its turns, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success.
(Dominate Monster with 5 targets, and with an intelligence save! There is a saving throw after every turn, but not when damage is received).



This is not Dominate Monster by any stretch:

Yes, it's much better, especially for combat.


-It relies on charmed, there's plenty of creatures immune to it and any Elf/Half Elf based block will have advantage on the save

Dominate Monster does too.


-You can't make them attack anyone that hasn't attacked you after the charm, or that they would have attacked anyway.

You only need to have been targeted once for the 5 dominated creatures to go to town on your attacker.



Dominate Monster blows this out of the water for control, it's far more useful as an out of combat charm. Again, not really seeing the hubub here, you over estimated it.

Dominate Monster can't affect 5 targets! Also, I forgot to mention it but Dominate Monster gives advantage on the saving throw if you are fighting the target - Invoke Awe doesn't.



Overwhelming Attack (7 psi). As an action, choose up to five allies you can see within 60 feet of you. Each of those allies can use their reaction to take the Attack action. You choose the targets of the attacks. (can easily double the DPR of the entire party for 1 round)



If the party has their reaction available and are both in poisition to make use of, and can competently make use of the Attack action. Melee character not in range or suffers from overkill, casters likely included that can't do anything most likely (or at least nothing particularly worth while).

It's literally impossible for this to double the DPR of your party, it'd require a party of nothing but martials/gishs besides the Mystic, and the Mystic is spending their action not doing damage.

If you have 5+ martials allies in the party, they can often take advantage of it - especially if they are archers. Replicating the damage of 5 martials is amazing. Just compare it to the Battlemaster's Commander's Strike maneuver to see the ocean of difference in power levels...



Psionic Restoration: this discipline is basically equivalent to learning Cure Wound, Lesser Restauration, Greater Restauration, & Revivify



I really don't understand your point here? None of those effects are over powered and it leaves a Mystic healer sub par compared to any other fullcaster healer...

The problem is that the Mystic can be a decent healer on top of everything else...



Thunder Clap (7 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Thunder energy erupts in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point. Each creature in that area must make Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d6 thunder damage, and it is stunned until the end of your next turn. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage. (like Psionic Static except it stuns for a round)




-Stunned for a turn is crap compared to the massive debuff SS imparts.


Stunned is the third best condition after Unconscious & Paralyzed. Being stunned for 1 round is massive, and much more impactful than a d6 penalty to attack roll & ability checks. One is a Fireball that automatically does Stunning Strike, the other inflicts an effect worse than Bane...



Victory Before Battle (7 psi). When you roll initiative, you can use this ability to grant yourself and up to five creatures of your choice within 60 feet of you a +10 bonus to initiative. (you thought the Oath of Watcher aura was good?)



This is costing the equivalent of a 4th level spell slot for an increased chance to win initiative.

A massive expenditure before the combat has even started, why is this so broken to you?

A massive expenditure for a massive effect. +10 to initiative is no joke - Alert an a top tier feat, and only gives +5. This is roughly 10 times as valuable as Alert.

Victory Before Battle is a no brainer in difficult boss fights.



Whirlwind (2 psi). As an action, choose a point you can see within 60 feet of you. Winds howl in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point. Each creature in the sphere must succeed on a Strength saving throw or take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and be moved to an unoccupied space of your choice in the sphere. Any loose object in the sphere is moved to an unoccupied space of your choice within it if the object weighs no more than 100 pounds.
(cheap power that can totally reorganize the battlefield, as well as drop all enemies into a hazard or a spell effect such as Web. You can also move them upward for some extra fall damage & the prone condition.)



Near useless to you once your party gets mixed up on the battlefield and targets a fairly strong monster save.

Whilst RAW, it is entirely within the purview of the DM for fall damage, because that is clearly not the intention of this UA ability.

Now, why do you say it's near useless once your party gets mixed up?! Please explain!

In fact, that's the best time to use the ability - hitting your allies for 1d6 damage is almost always worth it to move them where they want to be!

Also, I have no idea why you think it's not the intend to launch enemies up. Isn't that how actual whirlwinds work, by throwing stuff up in the air?


World of Horror (7 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, choose up to six creatures within 60 feet of you. Each target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 8d6 psychic damage, and it is frightened until your concentration ends. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage. While frightened by this effect, a target’s speed is reduced to 0, and the target can use its action, and any bonus action it might have, only to make melee attacks. The frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
(completely disables up to 6 creatures within 60 feet of you from a Charisma saving throw)



This does not completely disable a creature that fails its save. There will likely be melee PCs and they will still be able to smack them.

Walk away from the enemy and they become a sitting duck.

[Merudo]

It's kind of surprising to me when people discuss what makes Mystic OP, and not many mention Nomadic Mind's Psychic Focus. That thing is broken as hell. The way its written, you can be good at any skill you want, buy all the tools because you can use them, read any language you want, even if its an obscure/ancient/alien language. Its bonkers. Even wizards are not this versatile. What's that, wizard boy, You got Comprehend language? I mean sure, are you gonna spend a spell slot to cast it? Because i can instantly read this ancient text and we ain't got 10 minutes for your stupid ritual.


Wow thank you, I had missed this bonkers ability:



Psychic Focus. Whenever you focus on this discipline, you choose one skill or tool and have proficiency with it until your focus ends.
Alternatively, you gain the ability to read and write one language of your choice until your focus ends.


Wow, it's almost Comprehend Language + doubled Jack of all Trades + all tool proficiencies in one. Crazy.

The Mystic is the best skill monkey in the game, too.



Psychic Assault is also nuts with the power creeped Cone of Cold that deals psychic damage to a weaker save at 1 level lower. Its a great problem solver since most D&D problems involve lots of monster.


Yes, it's a much better Cone of Cold.

[SharkForce]

a couple of points:

1) y'all need to read the extra attack feature more closely: Beginning at 5th Level, you can Attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on Your Turn.

you might double your party damage (approximately) if you have all rogues, but they should all have been looking for ways to get off-turn attacks without needing to rely on the mystic anyways.

2) knowledge clerics can already get proficiency in any tool with a channel divinity. you can already be good at basically whichever skills you actually care enough to bother with when you make a character. comprehend languages allows you to read whatever language you need at a moment's notice. these abilities are so incredibly potent that... oh wait, basically nobody has really cared for several years. I think you guys might just possibly be getting worked up over something that is not really a big deal

[Bosh]

Looks like a fun class, as long as I can rely on the DM to keep it the **** away from newbies or people who keep bouncing off the rules (you know the guy, the one who's a great player, comes up with cool ideas and RPs well but STILL can't remember what proficiency gets added to after years of playing).

I like the idea of having more and less complicated classes, I like that we have dead simple classes like champion fighters so we should have more complicated ones as well as long as they're clearly labelled as such.

[Jerrykhor]

2) knowledge clerics can already get proficiency in any tool with a channel divinity. you can already be good at basically whichever skills you actually care enough to bother with when you make a character. comprehend languages allows you to read whatever language you need at a moment's notice. these abilities are so incredibly potent that... oh wait, basically nobody has really cared for several years. I think you guys might just possibly be getting worked up over something that is not really a big deal

That's like comparing a golf buggy to a ferrari. Knowledge clerics have to burn a CD, which they only have 2 per SR, and it only last 10 minutes. Mystics can swap the proficiency AT WILL to anything and it lasts until... they decide they are stepping on the toes of their party members so hard its embarrassing.

[SharkForce]

That's like comparing a golf buggy to a ferrari. Knowledge clerics have to burn a CD, which they only have 2 per SR, and it only last 10 minutes. Mystics can swap the proficiency AT WILL to anything and it lasts until... they decide they are stepping on the toes of their party members so hard its embarrassing.

it really isn't.

nobody cares that you can change the proficiency at will. it is not a big deal. you'll use it occasionally. you will almost never use it more often than 1-2 times per short rest. it just isn't that good. it will occasionally be nice to have, but most of the time it will not matter in the slightest.

[Dork_Forge]

The Wizard has superior utility via Ritual Casting, but Mystic blows the Wizard away in power, at least at level 9-10.

Based on what? The Wizard list is huge and with Arcane Recovery they can cast out the wazoo.


Also I don't quite understand why you think the Wizard has an "absurd number of spells"? A level 9 Wizard can prepare 14 spells. Meanwhile a Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind will have 20 spells known. A Cleric will have 24 spells prepared.

They ritual cast straight out of their book, no other class can do that and it makes their need for prepared spells far less than those classes.


For the record most Mystic disciplines provide 4 powers (not including the Psychic Focus). So a level 9 Mystic will know about 28 powers, twice as much as the number of spells can Wizard can prepare.

The above is relevant to this, but also more relevant in my experience is that disciplines are packages. You will most likely have things you don't want and won't use often if at all. Casters generally get to pick and choose their spells to suit their build individually.


That's just plain false - their at will is definitely not weaker than all full casters, and Psionic Talents are very competitive with cantrips. Mind Thrust for example does 1d10 psychic damage if the target fails an intelligence save, and Mind Slam & Psychic Hammer offer decent control.

Please show me how that's weaker than what the Bard & Druid can do at will.

I'd rate the talents as slightly more powerful than cantrips, but this is because they get far fewer of them.

Since you specifically mentioned the Bard and Druid, not only do they both get more cantrips than the Mystic for most of the progression (ending equal) they both also get more/better weapon proficiencies than the Mytsic's simple weapons.




The difference is of course that the cannons of the Artillerist are pretty much their main feature, while the Mystic gets ~27 other powers. Also the Protector cannon only heal in a range of 10 feet, while the Aura of Victory heals in a radius of 30 feet.

The Artillerist has subclass enhanced casting in addition to the turret and can make magic items, that comparison is overly harsh and untrue.

The cannon provides temp hp within 10ft of the cannon, Aura of Victory provides it within 30ft of the Mystic. AoV only provides temp hp when something drops to 0, the cannon can provide it every turn. It also lasts an hour, with subsequent summons being a 1st level slot. That slot is more valuable to a non fullcaster, but the power return is significant and 7PSi is a lot to a Mystic.


To be frank I feel you are being a tad dishonest here? Surely you can see how concentration-less flying is amazing? A large proportion of enemies have poor or no ranged options. And races with built-in flight such as the Aarakocra & Winged Tiefling rank at the top of every serious guide - they are so good that AL bans them.

No, I'm not being dishonest and I don't appreciate that.

I can see how it's nice yes, I played an Immortal with that Discipline and like using the wings on occasion. Did I use it often? Not particularly, 5 Psi points is a hefty cost and to be blunt flying isn't nice enough to warrant it a lot of the time.

What makes winged races problematic is that it's flying at will from 1st level with no class or feat investment. That is not a fair comparison to something that costs the equivalent of a 3rd level spell and only lasts an hour.


As for the AC, it certainly can be great. Mystics get Light Armor proficiency, so upgrading to Half-Plate + Shield (AC 19) is just a feat away. If that's not desirable, you can pick Order of the Avatar to get Medium Armor + Shield proficiency at level 1 like the Hexblade.

If you optimise for AC, a bump to your AC can give you an even higher AC yes. A feat is certainly not cheap to get that AC (nevermind the not insignificant gold cost).

As for the Avatar, eh? It's a martial subclass that ends up expending a resource and losing a hand to end up with the same baseline AC as a Fighter/Paladin in plate with a shield and Defense. The Paladin can crank it up to 23 with Shield of Faith.


With Half Plate, Shield and Tough Hide, you get AC 21 without using up concentration, which is great and roughly on par with the Bladesinger.

Which is a lot of investment to meet parity with a subclass that will have access to Shield.


By the way, you can dip Forge Cleric with the Mystic, too.

Yup, my point was that there are plenty of ways to ratchet AC, Tough Hide, especially on a base class that only gets light armor, is not a power concern.

Again, coming from someone that played it. My Immortal never outshined the heavy armor battle master, or the phoenix sorcerer, or the celestial tomelock, not in AC (was often behind actually) and not in other ways.



Are you seriously saying a 10ft radius sphere that can affect allies is comparable to up to 8 creatures within 90 feet of the caster?

Yes, because in my experience as a player and DM monsters aren't spread out massively, certainly not frequently enough to matter.


Have you ever used the Light Cleric's Radiance of the Dawn, or the Destructive Wave spell? These can easily affect a massive number of enemies. Incite Panic has similar targeting, but it has three times the range.

How can you say this is a wash with Confusion's 10ft radius sphere (same as Shatter)? Wow.

Light Cleric no, Destructive Wave yes and it doesn't work that way, it's a self originating, non discriminatory AOE.

My point is the amount of times you're going to need that range or near to that many targets the 10ft radius sphere would suffice most of the time. I don't think there's a great deal of practical difference.


True but Incite Panic might affect them the next turn. Not so for Confusion.

Okay, let's look further then:

Incite Panic makes saves on the start of the target's turn, meaning you have the opportunity to lose concentration before it even has a chance to do anything.

Incite Panic relies on Frightened for a decent portion of its power.

Confusion actually has a further reach if the aim is a small group or single big bad.


For appearances? Any scaling back would be quite impactful.

Yes for appearances, because it's whiteroom potential is

Yes, it's much better, especially for combat.


Dominate Monster does too.

Yeah that was a miss by me, addressed upthread already



You only need to have been targeted once for the 5 dominated creatures to go to town on your attacker.


That's still a hoop to jump through... If you've charmed five hostiles, then how many are left to target you not the party?

If you want these creatures to fight something for you, where is the line where it's basically suicide for them and would trigger the 'self destrcutive' clause?


Dominate Monster can't affect 5 targets! Also, I forgot to mention it but Dominate Monster gives advantage on the saving throw if you are fighting the target - Invoke Awe doesn't.

...So? Invoke Awe has too many hoops to jump through and frankly I don't think it's intended to be a combat ability. It has too many hoops and too long a time to scream 'use me in a fight' and I don't think it would work that well in practice, and is ripe for DM shut down.


If you have 5+ martials allies in the party, they can often take advantage of it - especially if they are archers. Replicating the damage of 5 martials is amazing. Just compare it to the Battlemaster's Commander's Strike maneuver to see the ocean of difference in power levels...

What are you hoping to achieve by comparing a maneuver available at 3rd level for a single SD (a short rest resource) vs the equivalent of a, I think it's a 5th level spell. I mean were you expecting any level of parity here?

You're really arguing for a party that includes 5+ martials amongst their number? That are all capable of attacking an enemies when this is 'cast'?

And as very rightly pointed out by SharkForce, Extra Attack won't apply to the attacks. Which makes it far less powerful than you expected.


The problem is that the Mystic can be a decent healer on top of everything else...

The amount of stick Cure Wounds gets on this forum, yet getting access to basically the same thing is a problem? Really?

There's so many options to be a decent healer on top of other things in the game, Cleric and Druid being standouts here.


Stunned is the third best condition after Unconscious & Paralyzed. Being stunned for 1 round is massive, and much more impactful than a d6 penalty to attack roll & ability checks. One is a Fireball that automatically does Stunning Strike, the other inflicts an effect worse than Bane...

Minusing a d6 from attacks is a significant debuff to attack based enemies, grapple/shove combos become more reliable, and any casters get that d6 off their concentration saves.

Stunned is nice, but it's a lot of points for a single turn, especially since it keys off of a strong monster save.


A massive expenditure for a massive effect. +10 to initiative is no joke - Alert an a top tier feat, and only gives +5. This is roughly 10 times as valuable as Alert.

Victory Before Battle is a no brainer in difficult boss fights.

Alert is a top tier feat that gives three benefits, only one of which is initiative.

Yes it's a nice boon, but it is a massive Psi sink. It's not breaking anything, or even oh my gosh good when you think how much you could have been doing with those points.

Good for boss fights sure, if you've budgeted enough points to use it and have points left for the fight. The rest of the time, you know the majority of the combats you actaully fight? Not worth it.


Now, why do you say it's near useless once your party gets mixed up?! Please explain!

In fact, that's the best time to use the ability - hitting your allies for 1d6 damage is almost always worth it to move them where they want to be!

Party members concentrating on things may disagree, and it's unlikely you'd actually move them out of move and hit range of the enemy, seeing as reach and larger than medium isn't exactly uncommon. Friendly fire is a hard sell to me, FF for moving people around? No thank you.


Also, I have no idea why you think it's not the intend to launch enemies up. Isn't that how actual whirlwinds work, by throwing stuff up in the air?

Two reasons: Even in UA if the intent was to gain extra damage from the fall it'd be called out or referenced in the ability text. Secondly the proposal of the fall damage is the only thing that really makes it out of line at all.


Walk away from the enemy and they become a sitting duck.

I'm sure the melee characters will love that, nevermind taking longer to kill the creature, giving it more saves.


Wow thank you, I had missed this bonkers ability:



Wow, it's almost Comprehend Language + doubled Jack of all Trades + all tool proficiencies in one. Crazy.

The Mystic is the best skill monkey in the game, too.

This is, to say the least, an exaggeration. To gain the benefits of this you have to not use any of your other focus abilities, which are frankly more appealing a lot of the time.

Maybe this is a table difference, but skill checks aren't telegraphed massively in advance so you could change the focus most of the time.

If this is actually causing any kind of problem or power issue, then that is a table problem, not a power problem. If this was really a problem then Jack of all Trades, a far more versatile passive ability, should have derailed things from day one.

[Jerrykhor]

I thought the problem with Psionic Restoration is that their version of Revivify and Greater Restoration doesn't require the costly components.

[Sception]

The problem with Mystic was that it did too much, and it did too much because all of psionics is too broad a concept for a single class. It would be like making one "magic user" intended to replicate all the features and functions of wizards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, paladins, and rangers. It's jut too broad.

But the structure of the mystic, the way the disciplines worked, that was cool. That could have been a really fun and interesting departure from playing yet another slight variation on the same classes that have been around since the PHB.

It just needed to be at least two, maybe even three fully separate classes. Or maybe one full class, but greater space between the subclasses, and with several disciplines carved off to become part-psychic subclasses of other classes.

[PhantomSoul]

The problem with Mystic was that it did too much, and it did too much because all of psionics is too broad a concept for a single class. It would be like making one "magic user" intended to replicate all the features and functions of wizards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, paladins, and rangers. It's jut too broad.

But the structure of the mystic, the way the disciplines worked, that was cool. That could have been a really fun and interesting departure from playing yet another slight variation on the same classes that have been around since the PHB.

It just needed to be at least two, maybe even three fully separate classes. Or maybe one full class, but greater space between the subclasses, and with several disciplines carved off to become part-psychic subclasses of other classes.

Yeah, it's a spot where subclasses really need to be designed with considerable differences, to the point that they (explicitly or functionally) have different (but overlapping) not-spell lists.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It just needed to be at least two, maybe even three fully separate classes.
Entirely agreed (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7)

[Merudo]

it really isn't.

nobody cares that you can change the proficiency at will. it is not a big deal. you'll use it occasionally. you will almost never use it more often than 1-2 times per short rest. it just isn't that good. it will occasionally be nice to have, but most of the time it will not matter in the slightest.

And I say that the Nomadic Mind's Psychic Focus is nearly indistinguishable from proficiency in every skill, tool and language.

It makes the Mystic the best skill monkey, by a long shot.


I thought the problem with Psionic Restoration is that their version of Revivify and Greater Restoration doesn't require the costly components.

You are right, of course. With Greater Restoration especially, you can really enable the cocainelock.



Two reasons: Even in UA if the intent was to gain extra damage from the fall it'd be called out or referenced in the ability text. Secondly the proposal of the fall damage is the only thing that really makes it out of line at all.


So, are you saying that the spells like Reverse Gravity, Telekinesis, etc. are not intended to do fall damage because that is not referenced in the spell text?

[Dork_Forge]

And I say that the Nomadic Mind's Psychic Focus is nearly indistinguishable from proficiency in every skill, tool and language.

It makes the Mystic the best skill monkey, by a long shot.

They don't get Expertise and they need to not use any other focus, on top of that they can only have one at a time. Stealth and Sleight of Hand at the same time? Not unless you picked at least one up normally.

Describe what you want to do and the DM calls for a skillcheck? "Can I switch my focus..." "No."

If this 'makes the Mystic the best skill monkey' then what must you think of a Bard with Jack of All Trades and access to Guidance?



You are right, of course. With Greater Restoration especially, you can really enable the cocainelock.


It's one of the few perks to Psioncs and doesn't really make up for not having the broader healing abilities. No deep healing, no ranged healing, no recreating bodies etc.

[Merudo]

Based on what? The Wizard list is huge and with Arcane Recovery they can cast out the wazoo.


At level 9-10 Arcane Recovery gives a single level 5 spell back, hardly what I'd call "cast out the wazoo".



They ritual cast straight out of their book, no other class can do that and it makes their need for prepared spells far less than those classes.


There are really only 4 rituals that are significant: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Tiny Hut, and Phantom Steed.

Of these, only Phantom Steed is effective in combat.

Ritual Casting is certainly nice, but the fact that it takes 10 minutes to cast really limit its usefulness.



Since you specifically mentioned the Bard and Druid, not only do they both get more cantrips than the Mystic for most of the progression (ending equal) they both also get more/better weapon proficiencies than the Mytsic's simple weapons.


Bard & Druid get utility cantrips. Their combat cantrips are worst than the Mystic, by a considerable amount.

Weapon proficiencies? They do not matter at all at level 9 or 10.



As for the Avatar, eh? It's a martial subclass that ends up expending a resource and losing a hand to end up with the same baseline AC as a Fighter/Paladin in plate with a shield and Defense. The Paladin can crank it up to 23 with Shield of Faith.


The Paladin is using one of its precious spell slots and its concentration, and only ends up with +2 AC for 10 minutes compared to the Mystic.

Keep in mind the Mystic can use on Iron Durability's Psychic Focus for free to get 1 extra AC.

Mystic can get top tier AC with not much investment. That a specialized build (Paladin with defensive combat style wearing a shield & using Shield of Faith) gets only 1-2 more AC is evidence for, not against, the overpowerness of the Mystic.



Again, coming from someone that played it. My Immortal never outshined the heavy armor battle master, or the phoenix sorcerer, or the celestial tomelock, not in AC (was often behind actually) and not in other ways.


Which levels did you play at? I've seen the Mystic at level 9/10, they ended up outshining everyone in the party.

They ended using a lot of the powers I outlined above though, while you presumably stayed clear of them because you didn't like them.

Also Immortal is not the one you want for AC - that would be the Avatar.



Yes, because in my experience as a player and DM monsters aren't spread out massively, certainly not frequently enough to matter.


In my experience the monsters end up spread out very often, especially if you play in large groups with 5 or more PCs.

Melee monsters typically rush to engage in melee, often with difference PCs. Meanwhile the ranged monsters stay in the back. With Shatter / Confusion you'll be lucky to hit 3 monsters, while with Incite Panic you'll pretty much every monsters out there.



Light Cleric no, Destructive Wave yes and it doesn't work that way, it's a self originating, non discriminatory AOE.


You've been reading it wrong. Radiance of Dawn, Destructive Wave and Incite Panic are all discriminatory AOE. You won't hit your party with either of them.



My point is the amount of times you're going to need that range or near to that many targets the 10ft radius sphere would suffice most of the time. I don't think there's a great deal of practical difference.


A 10 ft radius is tiny. It's extremely unlikely that all enemies stick in such a narrow place. I've never seen a 10 ft radius sphere hit more than 4 enemies.

Which campaign were you guys playing? Most WotC battlemap are large enough that enemies can't be all hit with a mere 10 ft radius sphere.



That's still a hoop to jump through... If you've charmed five hostiles, then how many are left to target you not the party?


Some of the five will end up making their saving throws. So it typically ends up 3 vs 2, or something similar.




Party members concentrating on things may disagree, and it's unlikely you'd actually move them out of move and hit range of the enemy, seeing as reach and larger than medium isn't exactly uncommon. Friendly fire is a hard sell to me, FF for moving people around? No thank you.

I don't see your point? Whirlwind can move creatures larger than medium...

And 1d6 is miniscule at level 9-10, and nearly all concentration casters this close to melee will have very good concentration saves.

The tactical advantages of this spell outweigh the pitiful 1d6 friendly fire damage, by a long shot. Throwing half the enemies prone into a Web spell, or reorganizing the battlefield so that the Wizard can hit all the enemies with a Fireball, or moving the Druid to safety, can save your party dozens and dozens of points of damage.


They don't get Expertise and they need to not use any other focus, on top of that they can only have one at a time. Stealth and Sleight of Hand at the same time? Not unless you picked at least one up normally.

Describe what you want to do and the DM calls for a skillcheck? "Can I switch my focus..." "No."


Changing focus takes a bonus action, so it can be done pretty much instantly. The only skills I can imagine not being able to swap in time, are Perception (when surprised), Athletics/Acrobatics (to resist grapples), and Stealth (you often want to combine it with other skills & proficiencies).

It seems your DM dramatically nerfed the ability to switch your focus. I'm not surprised, because as written it's just broken.

[Dork_Forge]

At level 9-10 Arcane Recovery gives a single level 5 spell back, hardly what I'd call "cast out the wazoo".

Ritual casting and cantrips tackles a large amount of their utility, then they get the full caster slot selection and Arcane Recovery on top. They have the most casting in the game only comparable to Land Druids, Sorcerers that hate Metamagic, and Warlocks with a crazy amount of short rests.

And yes you can get a single 5th level slot... or you can get a variety of different slots back. A 3rd level slot for Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern and a couple first levels to fuel Shield/Absorb Elements for instance.

I really don't see one what grounds you can say that they don't get a crazy amount of casting.


There are really only 4 rituals that are significant: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Tiny Hut, and Phantom Steed.

Of these, only Phantom Steed is effective in combat.

Ritual Casting is certainly nice, but the fact that it takes 10 minutes to cast really limit its usefulness.

Well that's highly subjective, first of all I never said that rituals were useful in combat, the point is slotless utility. Secondly really, only four rituals in the entire game are worth it?

Alarm, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant, Tiny Hut, Contact Other Plane, Telepathic Bond..?

There's plenty of great ritual spells, so I'm not really sure what your criteria is here.


Bard & Druid get utility cantrips. Their combat cantrips are worst than the Mystic, by a considerable amount.

Toll the Dead is good damage, Vicious Mockery is a good debuff/damage combo for a cantrip.

But the real point here is that they have more things period, meaning they don't have to rely as much on their leveled spells.


Weapon proficiencies? They do not matter at all at level 9 or 10.


I'm not sure why you're fixated on the level 9/10 mark, but they certainly can be relevant at those levels. More proficiencies mean a higher chance of getting a magic item, it gives the option of falling back on a weapon if needed.


The Paladin is using one of its precious spell slots and its concentration, and only ends up with +2 AC for 10 minutes compared to the Mystic.

Keep in mind the Mystic can use on Iron Durability's Psychic Focus for free to get 1 extra AC.

Mystic can get top tier AC with not much investment. That a specialized build (Paladin with defensive combat style wearing a shield & using Shield of Faith) gets only 1-2 more AC is evidence for, not against, the overpowerness of the Mystic.

Why are you painting it like the Paladin is specialised but the Mystic isn't? Medium armor and shields is not normal for a Mystic, it's either part of their subclass power or a feat investment. And even with that investment they need to use Tough Hide to break even with a sowrd and board heavy armor user with Defense, which I'm sorry, isn't as specialised as you think.

For the Mystic to compete it had to get proficiencies from somewhere, dedicate a focus and burn Psi points.

When there is so much investment needed, I'm sorry it's not a problem, especially since the resulting AC isn't even impressive.


Which levels did you play at? I've seen the Mystic at level 9/10, they ended up outshining everyone in the party.

3-9, DM'd one for 8-10, played alongside one at level 8.

Frankly outshining can be as much about the party and players as it is about the one doing the outshining, which is why I listed the party I played a Mystic in.


They ended using a lot of the powers I outlined above though, while you presumably stayed clear of them because you didn't like them.


Lol k, since you're being very presumptuous, of the ones you listed I used:

-Psionic Restoration

-Beastial Transformation (Used Tough Hide sometimes, Wings on occcasion and the climbing one too, I think I used pretty much all of them actually

-Thunder Clap, the results were eh, Con is a strong monster save and it's a lot of points.

-Whirlwind, I think I used this twice, it didn't feel worth my points or action either time.

The others I didn't use primarily because they didn't fit my character, so I didn't even consider them. Because despite these white room complaints, players don't generally create characters through cherry picking the best abilities in a mish mash that doesn't make much narrative sense.


Also Immortal is not the one you want for AC - that would be the Avatar.

I never claimed at any point I was playing an Immortal because I wanted high AC, I liked the concept and enjoy playing very durable characters. As far as my AC went it was adequate and appropriate for what I was playing, but even using Tough Hide and the Mastery of Wood focus it was never particularly high.


In my experience the monsters end up spread out very often, especially if you play in large groups with 5 or more PCs.

That's a pretty big table difference, I'd wager that most tables aren't 5+. Annecdotally my two tables are 3 and 4 PCs.


Melee monsters typically rush to engage in melee, often with difference PCs. Meanwhile the ranged monsters stay in the back. With Shatter / Confusion you'll be lucky to hit 3 monsters, while with Incite Panic you'll pretty much every monsters out there.

If you're not hitting them before they're mixed up, then I wouldn't bother period since Incite Panic still has a good chance of letting them attack.


You've been reading it wrong. Radiance of Dawn, Destructive Wave and Incite Panic are all discriminatory AOE. You won't hit your party with either of them.

That one's my bad, skimmed over the of your choice part when I played it.


A 10 ft radius is tiny. It's extremely unlikely that all enemies stick in such a narrow place. I've never seen a 10 ft radius sphere hit more than 4 enemies.

On a grid a 10ft radius sphere is not small unless you're playing on a particularly big and open map, and for some reason the monsters are starting out spread apart despite being aligned together.


Which campaign were you guys playing? Most WotC battlemap are large enough that enemies can't be all hit with a mere 10 ft radius sphere.

The comment was general 5e, if you want to know about my Mystic experience:

-Some (I think) 3rd party module that went into homebrew for playing one, homebrew as DM and playing alongside

-I've played in and or ran Lost Mines, SKT, part of Avernus, most of Candlekeep

I primarily run homebrew using maps either from modules or sources separately.


Some of the five will end up making their saving throws. So it typically ends up 3 vs 2, or something similar.

So the first round of charm it'll be a toss up between them seeing their associates attack you or not, and if they attack the party then you can't command them to attack anyone, and if you lose concentration you've achieved...?

It can be used for combat, but it just isn't intended for that and trying to stretch it into that roll illustrates it as anything but broken.


I don't see your point? Whirlwind can move creatures larger than medium...

You can only move them within the area created by Whirlwind, the bigger they are the more of that space they occupy.


And 1d6 is miniscule at level 9-10, and nearly all concentration casters this close to melee will have very good concentration saves.

Any amount of FF is something that should be avoided unless it's directly leading to a quicker end to the encounter, which this likely isn't. Assuming that casters will have good concentration saves, I'm sorry should be left out of this. Most don't have Con save proficicency and won't have an impressive Con. If they've invested a feat then they've likely sacrificed their efficiency as a caster to do so.

And if the caster can decided to be in melee or not the DM if giving you too much lenience. The best case for Whirlwind is when the monsters close on the party and the people in melee suddenly, are the ones that don't want to be.


The tactical advantages of this spell outweigh the pitiful 1d6 friendly fire damage, by a long shot. Throwing half the enemies prone into a Web spell, or reorganizing the battlefield so that the Wizard can hit all the enemies with a Fireball, or moving the Druid to safety, can save your party so many points of damage.

The size of Whirlwind is the same size as Fireball, the amount of situations that you could use Whirlwind to swing perfect, or near perfect Fireball formation will be slim.

Using it to take advantage of Web, Spike Growth etc. is nice, but tricked out Eldrtich Blast and Thornwhip allow manipulation at will with no cost.

You're looking at this spell like it's a 1st level Scatter and I just don't see it or agree.


Changing focus takes a bonus action, so it can be done pretty much instantly. The only skills I can imagine not being able to swap in time, are Perception (when surprised), Athletics/Acrobatics (to resist grapples), and Stealth (you often want to combine it with other skills & proficiencies).

It seems your DM dramatically nerfed the ability to switch your focus. I'm not surprised, because as written it's just broken.

It's not broken, the skill monkey field is so deep in 5e that this is not breaking anything. Again, if this was a problem then Jack of All Trades and Guidance would have derailed things from day one.

Players should not get such advance notice of skill checks all the time, and frankly even if they have this focus, they'll have to choose to not use one of the other good ones. This whiteroom thing of always having time to switch and always choosing to use it just doesn't fly a lot of the time sorry.


And this isn't my DM nerfing me, I didn't have that discipline nor did I want it. I wouldn't expect to use it that was as a player nor would i allow it as a DM. The same thing as Guidance really "can I guide that?" at least half the time the answer is no, and with good reason.

Your argument against the Mystic is whittling down, and your experience at level 9/10 seems to be more about the table than the Mystic tbh.

[Merudo]

And yes you can get a single 5th level slot... or you can get a variety of different slots back. A 3rd level slot for Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern and a couple first levels to fuel Shield/Absorb Elements for instance.

I really don't see one what grounds you can say that they don't get a crazy amount of casting.


All full spell casters get 15 spell slots at level 10. The Wizard's Arcane Recovery gets them at most 4 backs. 19 is not "crazy" higher than 15...

That assumes the Wizard had a short rest before the main fight too. In many case, they won't, or won't have expanded their spell slots.



Toll the Dead is good damage, Vicious Mockery is a good debuff/damage combo for a cantrip.


Again, neither the Bard or Druid have Toll the Dead. Vicious Mockery is passable at tier 1 but scales horribly.



But the real point here is that they have more things period, meaning they don't have to rely as much on their leveled spells.

Most non-combat cantrips are little more than ribbons. The Mystic's numerous Psychic Focuses, combined with Psychic Talents, are way more useful.



I'm not sure why you're fixated on the level 9/10 mark, but they certainly can be relevant at those levels.

My argument has for this entire time being that Mystics are broken at level 9/10, when they unlock powers costing 7 Psi. Are you seriously asking why I'm focused on my argument?



More proficiencies mean a higher chance of getting a magic item, it gives the option of falling back on a weapon if needed.

Without extra attack, Cantrips / Psi Talents are nearly always better than a magical weapon after tier 1.



Why are you painting it like the Paladin is specialised but the Mystic isn't? Medium armor and shields is not normal for a Mystic, it's either part of their subclass power or a feat investment.


Order of the Avatar gives Medium Armor + Shield, and is one of the best, if not the best subclasses for Mystic. It's fair to say that any optimizer would seriously consider it.



Lol k, since you're being very presumptuous, of the ones you listed I used:

-Psionic Restoration

You don't have a healer (Bard/Cleric/Druid/Paladin) in the party, so of course you won't overshadow any of them.



-Beastial Transformation (Used Tough Hide sometimes, Wings on occcasion and the climbing one too, I think I used pretty much all of them actually

Bestial is mostly defense + maneuverability, it won't make you an effective character by itself.



-Thunder Clap, the results were eh, Con is a strong monster save and it's a lot of points.

Thunder Clap is definitely situational, but man is it amazing against low con creatures.



-Whirlwind, I think I used this twice, it didn't feel worth my points or action either time.


With Whirlwind, which spell effect did you throw the enemies into? I assume Web, or Sleet Storm, or Wall of Fire? Or maybe one of your own Wall of Thunder?



The others I didn't use primarily because they didn't fit my character, so I didn't even consider them. Because despite these white room complaints, players don't generally create characters through cherry picking the best abilities in a mish mash that doesn't make much narrative sense.

Now I understand where you are coming from! If you make poor decisions when building your Mystic, of course it will be weak. The disciplines are totally unbalanced with each other.

[Phhase]

Personally, I do find The Nomadic Mind Focus slightly egregious. It's not really something you'll use in combat too much, but even if you do, it's not hard to just use it proactively rather than reactively, as in "I wanna try something, I'm gonna use my bonus action to swap focus and then I'ma make an X check to try to do Y." The tool proficiencies are great for crafting. However you do make a compelling point in that while this does technically allow the Mystic to do anything, there will always be people who can do it better, due to having different stat spreads and Expertise. Essentially, it's like the Mystic has access to brain-internet.



My argument has for this entire time being that Mystics are broken at level 9/10, when they unlock powers costing 7 Psi. Are you seriously asking why I'm focused on my argument?


I think the point here is that while you are correct that Mystic follows a steeper power curve than some other classes, it's a bell curve that becomes tamer after said levels, while warriors remain linear, and wizards remain quadratic. 9/10 isn't the only tier of play to consider.



Now I understand where you are coming from! If you make poor decisions when building your Mystic, of course it will be weak. The disciplines are totally unbalanced with each other.
Soit has a high optimization cap? If you want to play purely for the crunch?

[Dork_Forge]

All full spell casters get 15 spell slots at level 10. The Wizard's Arcane Recovery gets them at most 4 backs. 19 is not "crazy" higher than 15...

Increasing your total leveled casting in a day by almost a third, when you also have the best ritual casting in the game to rely on, isn't crazy? It isn't a lot of casting?

I really have no idea where you're getting that from or what your sense of balance is anymore.


That assumes the Wizard had a short rest before the main fight too. In many case, they won't, or won't have expanded their spell slots.

So the 'main fight' of the day usually happens first or second?

And the class that is entirely defined by spellcasting, that the vast majority of the time relies on a spell for AC, isn't likely to have expended slots by the time they take their first short rest?

I can see why you'd find the Mystic outshining everyone if your experience with fullcasters is just using cantrips in anything that isn't a boss fight.



Again, neither the Bard or Druid have Toll the Dead. Vicious Mockery is passable at tier 1 but scales horribly.

Toll the dead was an artifact from an edit, my PC died mid reply and I missed cleaning some things up (I was originally going to address multiple casters, before just looking back at your examples).

Vicious Mockery doesn't scale badly, it scales with monster power because the higher the level the less you want to get smacked by something. The psychic damage is the lesser effect.



Most non-combat cantrips are little more than ribbons. The Mystic's numerous Psychic Focuses, combined with Psychic Talents, are way more useful.

Focuses are not in contention with cantrips, they're entirely passive abilities.

We'll have to seriously disagree on the ribbon thing, Mage Hand is very important for handling things safely/interacting with potentially trapped objects, Guidance is very potent, the other cantrips you'd probably label as ribbons are how players interact with the world in a non murdery, creative way.

Yes talents are nice, but you do feel the lack of more at will options.


My argument has for this entire time being that Mystics are broken at level 9/10, when they unlock powers costing 7 Psi. Are you seriously asking why I'm focused on my argument?

Your list of obscene power has quite a few things that are well below that 7 Psi limit, which doesn't ring true with your premise.


With extra attack, Cantrips / Psi Talents are nearly always better than a magical weapon after tier 1.

Resistances, immunities, casting complications, there's plenty of times a weapon can be the better choice. I assume you meant 'without' extra attack, since one of the classes being discussed is the Bard, I'll point out that two subclasses get Extra Attack and one gets a psychic damage smite.


Order of the Avatar gives Medium Armor + Shield, and is one of the best, if not the best subclasses for Mystic. It's fair to say that any optimizer would seriously consider it.

This is something that comes up with other aspects of optimisation, like the Hexblade and giving a Wizard medium armor through a variety of ways. Is it nice? Yes. Is it really so great that you're wrong if you don't choose that option? Not in the slightest.

Off the top of my head my Immortal had an AC of about 16/17 without any contribution from a discipline. The temp hp I got every round made me more durable than the Half Orc Fighter (they used the drop to 1 ability multiple times and went down a couple, my Mystic never went down or got that close to it, the only in the party to be able to say that).

There's optimsation to be had in every subclass, I'm surprised you're so fixated on the Avatar if the whole Mystic is so broken.


You don't have a healer (Bard/Cleric/Druid/Paladin) in the party, so of course you won't overshadow any of them.

When the Sorcerer became a Sorcadin and the Rogue became a Celestial Tomelock (both with Cure Wounds) that frankly wasn't true. Most of the party were healers after a certain point.


Bestial is mostly defense + maneuverability, it won't make you an effective character by itself.

You listed it as an obscene power, so is it obscene or not?

The maneuverability it granted me was certainly very nice and convenient, but it didn't break anything or make anyone feel bad, it cost action economy and Psi points to get to that point.


Thunder Clap is definitely situational, but man is it amazing against low con creatures.

Con is generally a strong monster save. Low Con creatures, especially at those levels, are fodder. The case where this discipline is as good as you describe is a minority.


With Whirlwind, which spell effect did you throw the enemies into? I assume Web, or Sleet Storm, or Wall of Fire? Or maybe one of your own Wall of Thunder?

None, I believe both times I used it was to rearrange things due to an unfortunate start to the combat. Both times it didn't really achieve that, because you still have to play with that area and you're targeting a stronger monster save.

If the power of this ability comes from needing a separate character to set up an enviromental hazard, or for you to spend even more resources doing so yourself, then the discipline isn't really a problem is it? You could do the same with Thunderwave, Edlritch blast, Thornwhip, shoving them. If you're highlighting a broken combo that relies on an environmental effect, the highlight is on that effect, not Whirlwind.


Now I understand where you are coming from! If you make poor decisions when building your Mystic, of course it will be weak. The disciplines are totally unbalanced with each other.


Quite frankly this discussion has not been the most pleasant, you've accused me of dishonesty and now poor build decisions because I didn't choose abilities that you find OP? Seriously?

I hada conept in mind, an extremely hard to kill psionicist, and I achieved that. And along the way I had enough utility and combat power to not only hold my own, but nova down the enemy when I had to step up.

Could I burn points and look cool and powerful? Sure, and then I'd have no points to deal with the rest of the day.

You're talking about all of these abilities being ridiculous, it's like you're talking about only casting 5th level spells (for the most part) and then standing back and going, look how powerful that is!

...Yeah, what were you expecting? If you actually played a Mystic that way outside of a five minute adventuring day you'd run out of steam fast.

And Phhase brings up a good point. The two level period you're looking at is the peak of the Mystic power progression. After that there's no more scaling and it instead becomes more about creative use of power whilst casters will still continue to get higher level slots and more powerful spells.

And sorry I have to say: even if they do happent o be overpowered in those two levels... so what? Most people won't get that high, and it's two levels out of 20.

And after all of that, it's a UA! Something that is intentionally made powerful for ease of editing, and it isn't even that out of line across the board! Even the things you've pointed out aren't as good as you originally proclaimed (and I can't help but notice your list of arguments has dwindled down significantly over the course of this discussion.

Happy to keep having this discussion, but I'd rather you not make the comments towards me personally again.



Soit has a high optimization cap? If you want to play purely for the crunch?

It has a very high optimisation ceiling, but that's due to the amount of customisability and options on hand, rather than being a strict balancing issue. Same way the Warlock has a high ceiling because you can play with spells, invocations, patrons, and pacts.

[Merudo]

I think the point here is that while you are correct that Mystic follows a steeper power curve than some other classes, it's a bell curve that becomes tamer after said levels, while warriors remain linear, and wizards remain quadratic. 9/10 isn't the only tier of play to consider.


Yeah, I don't think the Mystic is nearly as problematic before they gain their 7 Psi powers. And after level 10, they get almost nothing out of the class.

In a way I consider the Mystic at level 9-10 to be similar to the Moon Druid at level 2-4: for a few levels, you can dominate the game.

A lot of official campaigns end around level 10-11, so the Mystic ends up shining brightly at the climax of the adventure.



So it has a high optimization cap? If you want to play purely for the crunch?

Absolutely, the Mystic is by far the hardest character in the game to optimize. You get 40 disciplines to choose from, each giving with ~4 powers and 1 focus. Picking the right disciplines for the campaign and party, is extremely difficult and requires a lot of thoughts and system mastery.

[Warder]

Whew, I've been out for a bit. I agree with Dork_Forge about most things in this thread, so I'll just +1 that.

I wonder if another solution to the exponential growth of Mystics than the ones we used at our table could've been to have something like major disciplines and minor disciplines - maybe you only get 2 major disciplines, or something, and they're the ones that get to have 7 psi abilities. The rest would be minor and capped at 5, or even 3. It's been too long since I played one so I'd need to look through the disciplines again, but I have a feeling it could work.

[Phhase]

Another thing that might help is to slightly reduce the number of disciplines known, and invert the selection paradigm. Instead of getting two bonus disciplines from your subclass at level 1, you get 2 disciplines of any type, and all other disciplines must come from your order.

[Merudo]

Increasing your total leveled casting in a day by almost a third, when you also have the best ritual casting in the game to rely on, isn't crazy?

Nope, level 9-10 Wizards are not even close to being crazy. At these levels, they are comparable in power to Bards, Druids & the Aberrant Mind / Clockwork Soul Sorcerers.

And level 10 Mystic can also get a near free level 5 slot, by using Consumptive Power. So they end up being able to cast as often as the Wizard.



So the 'main fight' of the day usually happens first or second?

It's the last fight of the day, because the party will take a long rest after.



And the class that is entirely defined by spellcasting, that the vast majority of the time relies on a spell for AC, isn't likely to have expended slots by the time they take their first short rest?

That's a single level 1 slot, and there are many ways around it (Bladesinger, multiclassing, Hobgoblin, Dwarf, Githzerai, etc).




I can see why you'd find the Mystic outshining everyone if your experience with fullcasters is just using cantrips in anything that isn't a boss fight.


My experience is that spell casters typically cast a single concentration spell, then perform actions of relatively low impact (cantrips, tasha's mind whip / command / dissonant whispers, maybe a fireball if they are lucky).

The Mystic not only has top tier concentration options, they also have awesome non-concentration powers. And they can unload them all in a single battle if they need to.



Vicious Mockery doesn't scale badly, it scales with monster power because the higher the level the less you want to get smacked by something. The psychic damage is the lesser effect.


Vicious Mockery scales badly because creatures with multiple attacks are increasingly common after tier 1. It's also quite likely to do nothing - either because the target makes their saving throw, the target doesn't make an attack roll, or because the disadvantage doesn't change the result of the attack.




We'll have to seriously disagree on the ribbon thing, Mage Hand is very important for handling things safely/interacting with potentially trapped objects, Guidance is very potent, the other cantrips you'd probably label as ribbons are how players interact with the world in a non murdery, creative way.


Mage Hand is one of the better cantrips, but even then it is rarely useful. Remember it has a 10 pounds limit, which is awfully low. A grappling hook and a rope are often just as effective as Mage Hand, and can handle much heavier objects.




Resistances, immunities, casting complications, there's plenty of times a weapon can be the better choice.

Picking two attack cantrips of different element solve this issue completely. For most spell casters, the only reason to carry a weapon is to shot out of a Tiny Hut.



Off the top of my head my Immortal had an AC of about 16/17 without any contribution from a discipline. The temp hp I got every round made me more durable than the Half Orc Fighter (they used the drop to 1 ability multiple times and went down a couple, my Mystic never went down or got that close to it, the only in the party to be able to say that).


Sounds like you overshadowed the rest of the party :)

Now imagine if you also had picked effective disciplines instead of going for the flavor options.



None, I believe both times I used it was to rearrange things due to an unfortunate start to the combat.

If you don't use any area effects then yeah, it's not overpowered. That's on you.



If the power of this ability comes from needing a separate character to set up an enviromental hazard, or for you to spend even more resources doing so yourself, then the discipline isn't really a problem is it? You could do the same with Thunderwave, Edlritch blast, Thornwhip, shoving them. If you're highlighting a broken combo that relies on an environmental effect, the highlight is on that effect, not Whirlwind.


Whirlwind is vastly more effective then any of the abilities you mentioned.

-Thunderwave: awful range, pushes enemies 10 feet away in 1 direction only.
-Eldritch Blast: only 2 enemies, 10 feet away, in 1 direction.
-Thornwhip: only 1 enemy, requires you to be on the other side of the hazard, pulls 10 feet
-Shoving: only 2 enemies, pushes only 5 feet away

Meanwhile Whirlwind can move a Fireball's worth of creatures up to 40 feet, in any direction, and knock them prone while doing do. With a psi cost equivalent to a level 1 spell.



You're talking about all of these abilities being ridiculous, it's like you're talking about only casting 5th level spells (for the most part) and then standing back and going, look how powerful that is!


Yep! The Mystic is pretty much the only caster who can spam level 5 spells (Sorcerer can try but there is a severe lack of efficiency). And the Mystic has access to far more "level 5 spells" then the Wizard, Bard or Sorcerer, and I'd say the Mystic 7 Psi powers are on average much better than level 5 spells (only Wall of Force & Animate Objects are better, and both are concentration).



Yeah, what were you expecting? If you actually played a Mystic that way outside of a five minute adventuring day you'd run out of steam fast.


Five minute adventuring days are the norm, not the exception.



It has a very high optimisation ceiling, but that's due to the amount of customisability and options on hand, rather than being a strict balancing issue. Same way the Warlock has a high ceiling because you can play with spells, invocations, patrons, and pacts.

Warlock does not have a high ceiling at all.

[Sception]

Entirely agreed (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7)

Yeah. Like that. :p

[Phhase]

Sounds like you overshadowed the rest of the party :)

Now imagine if you also had picked effective disciplines instead of going for the flavor options.


...No? He did one thing better than one person, and that happened specifically because that's what his build was focused around. The point is, he took a different route to get there. The phrasing might not have been favorable but he wasn't trying to deliberately contradict himself here, cmon.

[Merudo]

...No? He did one thing better than one person, and that happened specifically because that's what his build was focused around. The point is, he took a different route to get there. The phrasing might not have been favorable but he wasn't trying to deliberately contradict himself here, cmon.

Superior durability to the Orc Fighter was accomplished solely from the Mystic subclass and grabbing 2-3 disciplines out of 7 (Bestial Form, Restoration, and maybe something like Iron Durability or Nomadic Step).

It's not really a "focused build" so much as spending 1/3 of your class features to be the best at something.

That's the problem really. If a Mystic take for example 2 discipline for defense, 2 for control, 1 for damage (Psychic Assault), and 2 for utility (Nomadic Mind), you end up with a skill monkey that's more resilient than anyone, can heal & revive, and is an expert at blasting & control.

[Phhase]

Superior durability to the Orc Fighter was accomplished solely from the Mystic subclass and grabbing 2-3 disciplines out of 7 (Bestial Form, Restoration, and maybe something like Iron Durability or Nomadic Step).

It's not really a "focused build" so much as spending 1/3 of your class features to be the best at something.

That's the problem really. If a Mystic take for example 2 discipline for defense, 2 for control, 1 for damage (Psychic Assault), and 2 for utility (Nomadic Mind), you end up with a skill monkey that's more resilient than anyone, can heal & revive, and is an expert at blasting & control.

Right. But complete the thought. Comparing Mystic to that Fighter (Who, admittedly, we don't know much about) requires we consider that there very well were other things that they brought to the table other than this one thing we did better than them, lest it become false equivalence.

[Dork_Forge]

Nope, level 9-10 Wizards are not even close to being crazy. At these levels, they are comparable in power to Bards, Druids & the Aberrant Mind / Clockwork Soul Sorcerers.

Comparable in power how..? What are you looking at to make that statement? Number of spells known? Because it isn't number of spells cast.

Why do you single out those subclasses and you don't think that needing to highlight specific subclasses against just a main class is a problem?



And level 10 Mystic can also get a near free level 5 slot, by using Consumptive Power. So they end up being able to cast as often as the Wizard.


You're seriously using Consumptive Power as the balancing point here? Wizard's get Arcane Recovery for free. Mystics have to reduce their current and Max hp, the max reduction lasting until a long rest. That's a huge cost.


It's the last fight of the day, because the party will take a long rest after.

So it's the last fight of the day... but the Wizard wouldn't have expended slots to regen or wouldn't have had a short rest..?


That's a single level 1 slot, and there are many ways around it (Bladesinger, multiclassing, Hobgoblin, Dwarf, Githzerai, etc).

It's still resources expended just for parity, and it's only one slot if the adventuring day fits neatly into an 8 hour window.

Using a race doesn't really seem relevant here... for every race option that provides a solution there's like four or five more that don't.



My experience is that spell casters typically cast a single concentration spell, then perform actions of relatively low impact (cantrips, tasha's mind whip / command / dissonant whispers, maybe a fireball if they are lucky).

...So you're saying your experience is with full casters using spell slots, in an argument where you said that the Wizard wouldn't really be getting value out of Arcane Recovery because they wouldn't have spent spell slots?


The Mystic not only has top tier concentration options, they also have awesome non-concentration powers. And they can unload them all in a single battle if they need to.

Technically? Sure, realistically? Not really, that's very time and Psi intensive.

Just like how a Wizard could stack Mirror Image, Blink, and Flame Shield, whilst still having their concentration free for a main spell. But they likely won't.


Vicious Mockery scales badly because creatures with multiple attacks are increasingly common after tier 1. It's also quite likely to do nothing - either because the target makes their saving throw, the target doesn't make an attack roll, or because the disadvantage doesn't change the result of the attack.

You realise by the same token you're making this argument, the same line of thought would derail the OPness of the mystic powers you highlighted right?

Wis is usually a decent save to target, it's a cantrip of course it does nothing on a save, and on a fail it's doing some degree of damage too. Can an attack still hit with disadvantage? Of course, but again it's a cantrip and you're never going to get certainty from a debuff unless you prevent them attacking at all.



Mage Hand is one of the better cantrips, but even then it is rarely useful. Remember it has a 10 pounds limit, which is awfully low. A grappling hook and a rope are often just as effective as Mage Hand, and can handle much heavier objects.

I'm aware of the weight limit, which is usually sufficient for trying a door handle, lifting a book etc. You know, the things you'd use a Mage Hand for. Can rope and a grappling hook handle higher weights? Of course, but there's no way that's happening without a check and a reckless abandonment of any finesse.

You solution to using a hand was hurling a heavy metal hook at something, they seem like very different use cases.



Picking two attack cantrips of different element solve this issue completely. For most spell casters, the only reason to carry a weapon is to shot out of a Tiny Hut.

No, no it doesn't. Monsters having multiple resistances/immunities is pretty common and that doesn't address the difficulty of casting part (such as an area of Silence).

But thanks for adding an additional reason having a proficiency is nice.


Sounds like you overshadowed the rest of the party :)

Not in any way shape or form, confirmed by no one involved feeling that way whatsoever.


Now imagine if you also had picked effective disciplines instead of going for the flavor options.

Again, I had multiple options from your list...

And what makes you think choosing something character appropriate is weak? There was nothing 'weak' about my choices, you just keep inserting that because I don't agree with you.


If you don't use any area effects then yeah, it's not overpowered. That's on you.

Lol no, that's on you. If something relies on something else to be broken or OP, then it wasn't really that to begin with was it?


Whirlwind is vastly more effective then any of the abilities you mentioned.

It isn't, but go on...


-Thunderwave: awful range, pushes enemies 10 feet away in 1 direction only.

Does more damage and if the direction is such a problem... move. That's why we have a movement speed.


-Eldritch Blast: only 2 enemies, 10 feet away, in 1 direction.

Or one enemy 20 feet away, and you can make EB push, pull, and debuff speed.


-Thornwhip: only 1 enemy, requires you to be on the other side of the hazard, pulls 10 feet

If only PCs could move


-Shoving: only 2 enemies, pushes only 5 feet away

And can knock prone, preventing them from escaping effectively from the hazard and costs no resources.


Meanwhile Whirlwind can move a Fireball's worth of creatures up to 40 feet, in any direction, and knock them prone while doing do. With a psi cost equivalent to a level 1 spell.

No no no, if you have filled the area with creatures then you're just shuffling them around. You have to move them within the area, hence why the bigger they are the worse it is. And when it's all said and done the best case scenario is moving them 40 ft, when monsters commonly have superior speed to PCs.


Yep! The Mystic is pretty much the only caster who can spam level 5 spells (Sorcerer can try but there is a severe lack of efficiency). And the Mystic has access to far more "level 5 spells" then the Wizard, Bard or Sorcerer, and I'd say the Mystic 7 Psi powers are on average much better than level 5 spells (only Wall of Force & Animate Objects are better, and both are concentration).

Better spells is entirely subjective, I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

Times a Mystic can use 7 Psi abilities in a day at level 7 (assuming they don't want to reduce their own hp, because that sucks): 9

Sorcerer: 7 5th level slots, with two SP leftover for metamagic, all 1st level slots for Shield etc. and more cantrips than Talents.

Warlock: 6, with spells and powerful effects available from invocations, one level later this shoots up to an equal 9

The Mystic can surge all of their points in 5th level castings, end up not much above the two above classes and then have nothing to do for the rest of the day.

Spamming 7 Psi options is horribly ill-advised.


Five minute adventuring days are the norm, not the exception.

Then there's your problem. They are not the norm, and if they are for you then no wonder a long rest class is so powerful.

When the game is played significantly outside the design intentions of the game, then that's on the table/DM, not the design of the Mystic.

It's like saying the Warlock is weak because your group doesn't short rest. That isn't the Warlock's fault, it's yours.


Warlock does not have a high ceiling at all.

If you want that claim to mean anything at all you gotta justify it.

Spells, invocations, patrons, pacts: the Warlock has a lot of levers to pull and a lot of potential.


Superior durability to the Orc Fighter was accomplished solely from the Mystic subclass and grabbing 2-3 disciplines out of 7 (Bestial Form, Restoration, and maybe something like Iron Durability or Nomadic Step).

It's not really a "focused build" so much as spending 1/3 of your class features to be the best at something.

That's the problem really. If a Mystic take for example 2 discipline for defense, 2 for control, 1 for damage (Psychic Assault), and 2 for utility (Nomadic Mind), you end up with a skill monkey that's more resilient than anyone, can heal & revive, and is an expert at blasting & control.

This is horrendously wrong because you just assumed something and ran with it. I invested in a 16 Con and the Tough feat from being a V. Human. My stats and race choice heavily contributed to my durability.

And from experience, it is not that easy, not at all. If you actually want to be good at something it takes more investment then just one or two disiciplines.

And since you're so hyper focused at this very slim time when any of this is even really relevant. Even if you're right, which I completely disagree with, so what?

Hey at this certain level one class can really stand out if it blows all of it's resources away quickly in five minute adventuring days, look how broken it is!


Right. But complete the thought. Comparing Mystic to that Fighter (Who, admittedly, we don't know much about) requires we consider that there very well were other things that they brought to the table other than this one thing we did better than them, lest it become false equivalence.

I appreciate what you've been saying Phhase and you're right. Whilst my durability was superior to the Figher's, because I built for that purpose and he didn't, he was better at novas (action surge, maneuver on every attack, great axe) and attrition, being entirely at will or short rest based.

He could also see in the dark for free, which I couldn't because I chose to invest in my durability.

[Merudo]

Why do you single out those subclasses and you don't think that needing to highlight specific subclasses against just a main class is a problem?


The Aberrant Mind & Clockwork Soul are awesome, but there other Sorcerers have a serious problem: a low number of spells known.

I thought you knew this, which is why I didn't elaborate. My bad.



You're seriously using Consumptive Power as the balancing point here? Wizard's get Arcane Recovery for free. Mystics have to reduce their current and Max hp, the max reduction lasting until a long rest. That's a huge cost.


7 HP is not much at all at level 9+. And the Mystic has a d8 for hitpoints, so even after Consumptive Power they end up with more hp than Wizard.



Just like how a Wizard could stack Mirror Image, Blink, and Flame Shield, whilst still having their concentration free for a main spell. But they likely won't.


Mirror Image & Blink have a 1 minute duration, meaning you pretty much always have to cast them in combat. Using your only leveled spell in a turn to set one of them up has a huge utility cost.

Meanwhile the Mystic can use two powers a round, so it's dramatically more efficient action-wise for them to spend their psi.



You realise by the same token you're making this argument, the same line of thought would derail the OPness of the mystic powers you highlighted right?

Wis is usually a decent save to target, it's a cantrip of course it does nothing on a save, and on a fail it's doing some degree of damage too. Can an attack still hit with disadvantage? Of course, but again it's a cantrip and you're never going to get certainty from a debuff unless you prevent them attacking at all.


No. Vicious Mockery only has a single target. It is very unlikely to do nothing at all.

Incite Panic for example can often hit 8 targets, as long as they are within 90 feet of the caster. So even if half of them make their saves, the ability will be hugely impactful.



No, no it doesn't. Monsters having multiple resistances/immunities is pretty common and that doesn't address the difficulty of casting part (such as an area of Silence).

As a caster, it's quite rare to face monsters with the exact same resistance/immunities that matches your 2 cantrips. Even when facing those monsters, at level 10 there are almost always much better options than attacking with a weapon.

I'll note that Mystic doesn't have to worry about this, if they pick the Mind Thrust & Mind Slam / Psychic Hammer as talents. The only two creatures in the game immune or resistant to both psychic and force are the two Star Spawn Emissaries from VRGR.



Times a Mystic can use 7 Psi abilities in a day at level 7 (assuming they don't want to reduce their own hp, because that sucks): 9

Mystic can't use 7 Psi abilities at level 7.

Also, reducing their own hp by 7 is not really a big deal, especially since it will only be done once the Mystic is very low on Psi points.

From this and your thoughts on Whirlwind, you seem really adverse on expending a few HPs for powerful effects. I suggest you reconsider your reasoning - spending a handful of hitpoints is absolutely worth it if it can prevent a lot of damage.



Spells, invocations, patrons, pacts: the Warlock has a lot of levers to pull and a lot of potential.


Spells & Patrons/Pacts: all spellcasters have to pick their spells & subclasses. The Warlock is not really different here. The difference is that spell picks for Warlock don't matter as much as for other classes, because they cast so few spells anyway.

As for invocations, level 10 Warlocks only get 5 of them. Most Warlock end up picking the Eldritch Blaster invocations / Devil Sight, so that doesn't leave a lot of levers to pull.

[Dork_Forge]

The Aberrant Mind & Clockwork Soul are awesome, but there other Sorcerers have a serious problem: a low number of spells known.

I thought you knew this, which is why I didn't elaborate. My bad.

So the only thing that constitutes being powerful is having an on par number of spells known?




7 HP is not much at all at level 9+. And the Mystic has a d8 for hitpoints, so even after Consumptive Power they end up with more hp than Wizard.


And less than the majority of fullcasters in the game.

Consumptive power is not something to be used lightly unless you're playing an easy game, and certainly not to be used without extreme caution if fighitng things that reduce hp maximums or interfere with healing.

You're being too blase about this imo.


Mirror Image & Blink have a 1 minute duration, meaning you pretty much always have to cast them in combat. Using your only leveled spell in a turn to set one of them up has a huge utility cost.

Meanwhile the Mystic can use two powers a round, so it's dramatically more efficient action-wise for them to spend their psi.

Assuming they have the action economy available to cast what they want.


No. Vicious Mockery only has a single target. It is very unlikely to do nothing at all.

I assume you meant likely here. It's save or suck, it's as unlikely to do something as anything else save or suck. Wis is a decent save, and you're comparing a cantrip to a 5th level spell equivalent.


Incite Panic for example can often hit 8 targets, as long as they are within 90 feet of the caster. So even if half of them make their saves, the ability will be hugely impactful.

Combats that frequently even contain 8 targets does not sound normal to me.

This seems increasingly to be shaped by your very particular kind of table (lots of enemies, 5 minute adventuring days, large parties).


As a caster, it's quite rare to face monsters with the exact same resistance/immunities that matches your 2 cantrips. Even when facing those monsters, at level 10 there are almost always much better options than attacking with a weapon.

It can be dumb luck, it can be DM targeting, it can just be picking two common damage types. It can and does happen.

You have again ignored the part about difficulties casting.


I'll note that Mystic doesn't have to worry about this, if they pick the Mind Thrust & Mind Slam / Psychic Hammer as talents. The only two creatures in the game immune or resistant to both psychic and force are the two Star Spawn Emissaries from VRGR.

So all of their talents if they're level 9 or all but one of their talents if they're level 10 are to be assigned to damage?

Making them more reliant on Disciplines for nondamage/noncombat use, which further classes with the 'dump all your points' approach you're leveling at them.


Mystic can't use 7 Psi abilities at level 7.

I'm aware, I hit the wrong number on the keyboard.


Also, reducing their own hp by 7 is not really a big deal, especially since it will only be done once the Mystic is very low on Psi points.

...You mean when they're also likely to be already damaged, and in a tough fight?

Hurting yourself is always bad, reducing your own hp maximum at the same time is even worse. Again, too Blase.


From this and your thoughts on Whirlwind, you seem really adverse on expending a few HPs for powerful effects. I suggest you reconsider your reasoning - spending a handful of hitpoints is absolutely worth it if it can prevent a lot of damage.

Whirlwind is not a powerful effect unless there's even more resources spent on something to slam them into. Please stop referring to it as powerful in a vaccuum, when you have already made it clear that it needs that additional effect.

My reasoning is fine thank you, not just from months of playing a Mystic in a campaign and many other times in oneshots and PvPs, but as a general 5e principle. There's a time for friendly fire and self damage. Those times are not to be lightly chosen if you're in a fight you could actually lose.


Spells & Patrons/Pacts: all spellcasters have to pick their spells & subclasses. The Warlock is not really different here. The difference is that spell picks for Warlock don't matter as much as for other classes, because they cast so few spells anyway.



Other classes having subclasses and spells does not take those things away as levers.

The Pact choice is rather unique to the Warlock, and is certainly a lever unto itself.

Getting less slots means choosing your spells is more important not less. You need things that will scale or be worth casting with higher level slots, and you have a smaller margin for error.

But what really bothers me is this:


As for invocations, level 10 Warlocks only get 5 of them. Most Warlock end up picking the Eldritch Blaster invocations / Devil Sight, so that doesn't leave a lot of levers to pull.

You're taking away choices and then saying they don't have much left.

Warlocks don't have to be EB machines. They don't have to take Devil's Sight.

Just because some choices appear common does not mean that they are not choices and it doesn't take away from them contributing to a high optimisation ceiling.

You literally make less choices building a Mystic than a Warlock, and that's before considering how Cha multiclassing or Pact Magic manipulation can come into play.


I find myself becoming more and more confused about your stance to be honest, especially after some of the claims in this last post. So I'll ask some qualifying questions:

-What is your experience with the Mystic (please include party composition and monsters/encounters etc.)?
-What are your tables normally like?
-What in published 5e is OP to you?

And finally:

Assuming a 2SR, 6-8 encounter day, with a party of 4 and varying numbers and types of enemies, where something like 8 would certainly be the high end, does your viewpoint change?