What spells would you add to sorcerer subclasses?

[Mastikator]

After the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul were added in Tasha's there's been discussion about how these two bloodlines so greatly outshine all the other bloodlines partially because they more or less double the number of spells known. The other bloodlines seem kinda lackluster in the blinding light of these two.

My question to this good forum is then: what spells would you add to the other bloodlines?

Draconic Bloodline should probably receive spells depending on their ancestry.

Divine Soul IMO should pick one cleric domain and just get those spells.

Shadow?

Storm? I can easily see some druid spells finding their way here.

Wild Magic?

[KorvinStarmast]

My question to this good forum is then: what spells would you add to the other bloodlines?

Shadow?

Storm? I can easily see some druid spells finding their way here.

Wild Magic? There are a bunch of ideas posted at a web site where people publish home brew: it's called GM_Binder. For shadow this is what the author came up with: (parens indicates the level where they are gained)

Silent Image, Disguise Self (1)
Silence, Phantasmal Force (3)
Hunger of Hadar, Vampiric Touch (5)
Shadows of Moil, improved invisibility (7)
Envervation, dream (9)

There are others.

[MrStabby]

After the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul were added in Tasha's there's been discussion about how these two bloodlines so greatly outshine all the other bloodlines partially because they more or less double the number of spells known. The other bloodlines seem kinda lackluster in the blinding light of these two.

My question to this good forum is then: what spells would you add to the other bloodlines?

Draconic Bloodline should probably receive spells depending on their ancestry.

Divine Soul IMO should pick one cleric domain and just get those spells.

Shadow?

Storm? I can easily see some druid spells finding their way here.

Wild Magic?

Only ever utility spells, if that. The sorcerer was one of the best balanced classes in the game with a solid middle of the pack power rating. The last thing I would want to do would be to be party to power creep by loosening the key feature that stopped it being overpowered. The class exemplified good design to me by requiring hard choices.

To me this means any other spells added would be spells that would other wise not be contenders and very niche spells.

For example for Storm sorcerer I could see featherfall or gust being appropriate but would never just "give" call lightning or lightning bolt.

On the other hand, I am very open to the idea of bonus spells as the warlock does them - an expanded spell list from which the sorcerer can select a spell.

[J-H]

Here's what I use. I have never gotten to field test it:
https://i.ibb.co/FYVhC9w/sorc-spells-img.jpg (https://ibb.co/GMTdNX2)
Note: The 2nd Acid sorcerer spell should be See Invisibility, not a duplicate Caustic Brew.
3rd level Shadow spells should be Bestow Curse and Summon Shadowspawn.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Only ever utility spells, if that. The sorcerer was one of the best balanced classes in the game with a solid middle of the pack power rating. The last thing I would want to do would be to be party to power creep by loosening the key feature that stopped it being overpowered. The class exemplified good design to me by requiring hard choices.

To me this means any other spells added would be spells that would other wise not be contenders and very niche spells.

For example for Storm sorcerer I could see featherfall or gust being appropriate but would never just "give" call lightning or lightning bolt.

On the other hand, I am very open to the idea of bonus spells as the warlock does them - an expanded spell list from which the sorcerer can select a spell.

I'm sort of in the middle. I think the concept behind the Tashas spell lists is fine, but the execution is sometimes a mess. To me, the spells should be thematic before all else, powerful or not. So personally, both featherfall and gust and call lightning and lightning bolt would be great for a storm sorcerer, but not a random grab-bag of good spells like the Clockwork one has.

[Person_Man]

I’m of the opinion that the extra spells in Tasha’s should be nerfed and brought into line with other subclasses. But I also believe that Sorcerers, Warlocks, Rangers, Paladins, and Artificers should all be get easier access to Ritual Spells on their spell list. (Basically, some variation of the Book of Ancient Secrets as a default for each of them). I find that these classes rarely prepare utility spells, because it would mean nerfing their combat effectiveness.

Giving them easy access to Rituals would solve this problem, giving them more interesting magic options, but without unbalancing combat.

[Man_Over_Game]

Only ever utility spells, if that. The sorcerer was one of the best balanced classes in the game with a solid middle of the pack power rating. The last thing I would want to do would be to be party to power creep by loosening the key feature that stopped it being overpowered. The class exemplified good design to me by requiring hard choices.

To me this means any other spells added would be spells that would other wise not be contenders and very niche spells.

For example for Storm sorcerer I could see featherfall or gust being appropriate but would never just "give" call lightning or lightning bolt.

On the other hand, I am very open to the idea of bonus spells as the warlock does them - an expanded spell list from which the sorcerer can select a spell.

I'd say they're balanced in the grand scope of what balanced should be in 5e. They are not balanced in comparison to most other casters, though, who are just straight unbalanced. The versatility and the power level of the things they can do casually at later levels just kind of outshines anything else that can't do those same things, and it's honestly exhausting to consistently DM for. How exactly do you plan a module or a scenario around someone who can casually cast Dimension Door multiple times a day? Can you imagine trying to DM for a player that can cast True Resurrection once a day?

Like, if everything was balanced around the campaign-changing powers of Rogues and Barbarians, we'd be seeing a lot more level 10+ campaigns than we do.

So I guess what I'm saying is, it's important to mention what kind of balance people are going for. Because there's the ideal, and then there's reality, and they can kinda be mutually exclusive.

[Roan_Spence]

I've actually thought about this a lot and considered what I might add as spells to bring sorcerers in line with the new stuff that came out. No idea if any of this is good or not though.

Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer
1st: Chromatic Orb, Charm Person
3rd: Alter Self, Dragon’s Breath
5th: Fear, Tongues
7th: Charm Monster, Stoneskin
9th: Dream, Summon Dragon Spirit

(I know the Summon Dragon Spirit is UA but I wanted to include it).

Wild Magic Sorcerer
1st: Chaos Bolt, Absorb Elements
3rd: Mirror Image, Immovable Object
5th: Blink, Glyph of Warding
7th: Polymorph, Giant Insect
9th: Animate Objects, Passwall

Alternate idea: At each level the wild magic sorcerer gets 2 bonus spells from 1st-5th levels chosen at random, discounting spells they already know.

I picked the above list for Wild Magic mostly because for some reason the subclass always felt like it had some Fey energy to it in the trickstery randomness of it all. So I picked spells that felt like they had potential for pranks and the like as well as potentially creative usage.

I think Storm Sorcerer's bonus spells from their UA were pretty good so I just took those and used Maelstrom to balance out the numbers.

1st: Fog cloud, thunderwave
3rd: Gust of wind, levitate
5th: Call lightning, sleet storm
7th: Conjure minor elementals, ice storm
9th: Conjure elemental, Maelstrom

Divine Soul Sorcerer
1st: Shield of Faith, 1st level spell associated with your source of divine power
3rd: Augury, Enhance Ability
5th: Beacon of Hope, Pulse Wave
7th: Guardian of Faith, Death Ward
9th: Summon Celestial or Summon Greater Demon,* Holy Weapon

*If you choose Summon Greater Demon instead of Summon Celestial it’s always cast as a 5th level spell or higher for you and does not require a creature’s blood to cast. Otherwise, the spell behaves as normal. (uncertain about this option)

(Note: Of my attempts this is one I like the least. I thought Divine soul was exceptional as it was and honestly built my own homebrew with it as one of the components for comparison).

Shadow Sorcerer
1st: Arms of Hadar, False Life
3rd: Darkness* (bonus from the subclass), Phantasmal Force, Shadow Blade
5th: Bestow Curse, Feign Death
7th: Evard’s Black Tentacles, Hallucinatory Terrain
9th: Antilife Shell*

Note: This one may need change as there’s perhaps a little too much overlap with the Aberrant Mind. But it irked me for the longest Shadow Sorcerers couldn't get Black Tentacles so I had to put it as an option.

[frma]

Hello everyone! Let me start with some contextualization.

I'm a new player (haven't played 5 sessions in my life) who's just starting a campaign as a divine soul sorcerer, but I do have a good amount of knowledge of the game, in particular in terms of spellcasters. What I've quickly come to realize is that, indeed, sorcerers have a very small amount of spells known, starting with 2 and gaining 1 per level. After some research on the matter, I often came across the argument that wizards and clerics are like swiss army knives, having a spell for whatever situation, while sorcerers are specialized tools, doing one thing better than anyone else, but failing to contribute in every single situation. I very much like this idea, and I think it's an important distinction between sorcerers and wizards, which is why I decided to propose to my DM something other than bonus domain-like spells (which does not solve the problem, I'll get to that later).

Literally what I said to my dm:

"... The idea is to allow sorcerers to use the spell points variant and merge their sorcery and spell points in a single pool, and use that resource for both spellcasting and for infusing your spells with metamagic (not my original idea by any means). I feel like that is very in line with the idea of sorcerers being specialized tools, allowing them to use their already very small amount of metamagics with greater freedom, and also allowing greater flexibility with how to manage your resources, either using some high-level spells in a row or distributing that across many low-level spells. This also helps to distinguish the sorcerers from the wizards, as I do find that, if the wizard (and other full casters, in general) get such a wide variety of spells to use, the sorcerers should be able to cast more high level spells (or have more magic fuel, however you want to see it)..."

While I do stand by everything I said above, and my dm agreed, after trying to come up with a spell selection around such a system I realized it did not solve the problem. Currently, my main problem with sorcerers is not that they feel exactly underpowered, rather I feel like they suffer from a lack of uniqueness, which is due to very limited selection of both spells and metamagics known. Much like a wizard, I feel like a sorcerer's spell selection should play a rather large role in defining them as characters, because it really represents all these classes can do. Because there are a number of really good spells at most spell levels, spells that all spellcasters want and usually take, sorcerer players are left with a very tiny space for choosing thematic spells that help build their characters. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that now I agree that bonus domain-like spells are absolutely the way to go and WotC were right, so thanks for the thread.

I've seen a lot of list proposals on the internet and arguments about whether or not they're balanced, but NorthernPhoenix nailed it:


I think the concept behind the Tashas spell lists is fine, but the execution is sometimes a mess. To me, the spells should be thematic before all else, powerful or not.

I'm not going to propose an exact list, because I feel they should be decided more on a case by case basis and there are already many, but I will report some spells I have found to be interesting for a divine soul:

-Guiding Bolt

-Command

-Spiritual weapon

-Beacon of hope (which, btw, should work with distant metamagic)

-Tongues, as being an emissary of a deity

-Death ward

-Commune

And just because I haven't seen anyone mention it, incite greed could be a cool take on a draconic sorcerer.

[sambojin]

I flatout give single-classed Sorcs one floating spell prep each day at level 1, and another at level 6, of any spell on the basic Sorceror list of a level that they can cast. Just like a Cleric/Druid, but you only get 1-2 spell preps. Every single problem with Sorcerors then goes away. Don't even worry about extra spells potentially known from subclass, this patches all the holes anyway, whether it's a PHB sorc or a new-fangled lotsa-spells sorc.

It reflects the creative genius, the molding of your own inner power, the madness of minds, the wildness of magic, the racial bloodline spurring you on, the divine inspiration, the butterfly flapping its wings, the whimsy, the small change to the plan so the overall plan succeeds, perceptions revealed through the enlightened shadows, the natural movements, etc etc, inherent in all sorcerous magic.

It also makes it a fun, easy class for new players to try out, without having to plan 5 levels ahead to ensure you have a balanced spell loadout by the time you get there. And it lets you fit into any campaign style, or sections of a campaign that you're not well suited for, more easily. No mistake can't be patched over with 1-2 full-list spell preps at the beginning of every day.

They feel about as good as a Druid/Cleric, nearly Wizard levels of good, but with a bit less bookkeeping than any of them. You do what you do, but you can decide to do a smidgen of other stuff if you think it would be handy on any given day. And you can try some spells out before you lock them in as a thing-you-do if you want as well. You lose this ability if you multiclass at all (you're not just focused on sorcery and your own inner power any more), for balance reasons in DnD mostly, whilst still being thematically on-point to the class.


(Sure, it means Tasha's Sorcs get more-more spells, and divine souls still get more-more lists to choose their locked-in spells from (while still having awesome pure-sorc stuff), but the class as a whole rejoices, with it not being too game or class or subclass destroying or being too overpowered. Other subclasses do get stuff too, this just makes it easier to use that stuff when needed. It's simple and it works, and that is a good thing. Why balance every subclass, when you can just balance the entire class as a whole, with one simple houserule?
If you like, exclude Tasha's and DS sorcs from these new goodies, but I really wouldn't bother. They're so much less-*better than everything else* now, that it's a bit irrelevant if they get their stuff and this stuff too)

((If you want to re-table it, at lvl1 it's 2+1 spells known, going to 3+1, 4+1, 5+1, 6+1 to level 5, then at lvl6 it becomes 7+2, 8+2, 9+2, etc, for the rest of known spell progression. The +'d spells can be any spell off the Sorceror list, prepped each day. Everyone else gets a huge power boost at lvl5-7, now, so do you. It's nice, it's easy, it's thematic, and it unbreaks a class so well that all subclasses are viable, as long as they're mono-classed. It also makes you feel not-sucky if you are going to multiclass, because until the point that you do, you're actually a rather good caster. It might even keep you in the class a bit longer, being awesome, where sorcadin seems like an ok side-grade, not an instant upgrade, if you levelled Sorc first. It magically de-screws you on metamagic choices too!))

(((It's a pity they didn't include this in Tasha's as a class option. "At level 1, you get once less cantrip chosen, but you get the above." Would have worked fine, if you cut down the words a bit.)))

[Chronic]

You should not give 10 free spells to divine soul. That's extremely overpowered considering the subclass has access to 2 spell list. For my part I choose to give them 5 spells.

[Kane0]

There was a thread about this not too long ago actually, I think each dragon damage type ended up with their own expanded list too. Someone got a link?

[PhantomSoul]

There was a thread about this not too long ago actually, I think each dragon damage type ended up with their own expanded list too. Someone got a link?

For an older thread, this: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerous-Origin-Bonus-Spells
Since it's recent, comments in this one is probably what you've got in mind: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627634-What-am-I-missing-with-Aberrant-Mind-amp-Clockwork-Soul

[Kane0]

Aha, I think I found it.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622174-What-spells-would-you-give-the-old-Sorcerer-sub-classes

[PhantomSoul]

Aha, I think I found it.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622174-What-spells-would-you-give-the-old-Sorcerer-sub-classes

I picked the wrong one! It's a recurring topic (and was even before Tasha's) and I got unlucky haha

[Kane0]

I picked the wrong one! It's a recurring topic (and was even before Tasha's) and I got unlucky haha

Once you're around here for long enough you start to notice the rotation of topics. Ranger or skill DCs will come around again shortly.

[PhantomSoul]

Once you're around here for long enough you start to notice the rotation of topics. Ranger or skill DCs will come around again shortly.

We might even be overdue! :P

[Chiaramonte]

I have only played (am playing) a Draconic sorc. There are a lot of great ideas here, but most of problem I see with it is perhaps only prompted by my own character concept, correct me if I am wrong. Her belief is that she is directly descended from a Brass Dragon and wishes to embrace her heritage. The only barrier to that seems to be the fact that True Polymorph is the only spell that might allow her to accomplish that, but it is not an option for a sorcerer. I don't know if that's an oversight or a conscious decision of the designers. At least for a Draconic sorcerer, it seems like a natural thing to have in their arsenal.

I also agree that the capstone ability, as with many other classes, seems underwhelming. Maybe that's how it was intended.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think you have to either demote the Tasha's subclasses so they're only adding spells to the CLASS list, or add bonus spells to the others. A little imbalance between subclasses is fine, but the new options are such a massive boost to versatility that it's hard to argue for picking another subclass no matter what you're trying to do. A compromise of +1 spell known/spell level is, perhaps, the ideal.


<stuff>
If you're interested, my Grimoire includes a revised Sorcerer that does everything you're talking about here-- thematic bonus spells for all subclasses, sorcery-point-based-casting, unique metamagic options from your subclass, etc.

(Wild Magic, for instance, lets you randomize a spell's damage type; Storm Sorcerers get to spend sorcery points to send people flying after hitting them with thunder or lightning.)

[Dark.Revenant]

Rather than expanding the spells known for each class, I gave Sorcerers the following changes:

1. Careful Spell functions throughout the duration of the spell, not just the turn it is cast. Further, when Careful Spell is used, you can make the spell's damage be non-lethal.
2. Distant Spell doubles all distances listed in the spell (except area of effect sizes), not just the range. For example, Distant Counterspell can be triggered by a creature casting a spell 120 feet away.
3. Extended Spell increases the duration of the spell by thresholds: 1 minute -> 10 minutes -> 1 hour -> 8 hours -> 24 hours or until the caster completes a long rest, whichever is shorter.
4. Twinned Spell functions for spells that can target an object (you can target an additional object or creature), as well as spells that can target one creature/object at a time (such as Telekinesis; you have two simultaneous effects active).
5. 3rd-level Draconic Sorcerers gain Transmuted Spell as a bonus Metamagic option, and they can use it without spending a sorcery point if they are changing the damage type to that of their draconic ancestor.
6. 3rd-level Storm Sorcerers gain Transmuted Spell as a bonus Metamagic option, and they can use it without spending a sorcery point if they are changing the damage type to Lightning or Thunder.
7. 3rd-level Wild Magic Sorcerers gain a bonus Metamagic option of their choice.
8. 3rd-level Shadow Sorcerers gain Subtle Spell as a bonus Metamagic option.
9. 3rd-level Divine Soul Sorcerers gain Seeking Spell as a bonus Metamagic option.

[kaervaak]

Here's my house-rule list:

Sorcerer Added Spell Lists:

Wild Magic
1: Chaos Bolt, Absorb Elements
3: Enlarge/Reduce, Shatter
5: Fireball, Summon Fey
7: Polymorph, Banishment
9: Cone of Cold, Wall of Force
Swap with evocation or conjuration spells on the Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer list

Draconic:
1: Chromatic Orb, Cause Fear
3: Dragon’s Breath, See Invisibility
5: Fear, Fly
7: Elemental Bane, Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum
9: Geas, Skill Empowerment
Swap with Abjuration or Evocation

Shadow:
1: Disguise Self, Hex
3: Shadow Blade, Darkness
5: Hypnotic Pattern, Bestow Curse
7: Shadow of Moil, Phantasmal Killer
9: Enervation, Danse Macabre
Swap with Illusion or Necromancy

Storm Sorcery
1st Level: Thunderwave, Feather fall
2nd Level: Warding Wind, Gust of Wind
3rd Level: Call Lightning, Thunderstep
4th Level: Storm Sphere, Freedom of Movement
5th Level: Control Winds, Wrath of Nature
Swap with Evocation or Transmutation

[frma]

Rather than expanding the spells known for each class, I gave Sorcerers the following changes:

1. Careful Spell functions throughout the duration of the spell, not just the turn it is cast. Further, when Careful Spell is used, you can make the spell's damage be non-lethal.
2. Distant Spell doubles all distances listed in the spell (except area of effect sizes), not just the range. For example, Distant Counterspell can be triggered by a creature casting a spell 120 feet away.
3. Extended Spell increases the duration of the spell by thresholds: 1 minute -> 10 minutes -> 1 hour -> 8 hours -> 24 hours or until the caster completes a long rest, whichever is shorter.
4. Twinned Spell functions for spells that can target an object (you can target an additional object or creature), as well as spells that can target one creature/object at a time (such as Telekinesis; you have two simultaneous effects active).
5. 3rd-level Draconic Sorcerers gain Transmuted Spell as a bonus Metamagic option, and they can use it without spending a sorcery point if they are changing the damage type to that of their draconic ancestor.
6. 3rd-level Storm Sorcerers gain Transmuted Spell as a bonus Metamagic option, and they can use it without spending a sorcery point if they are changing the damage type to Lightning or Thunder.
7. 3rd-level Wild Magic Sorcerers gain a bonus Metamagic option of their choice.
8. 3rd-level Shadow Sorcerers gain Subtle Spell as a bonus Metamagic option.
9. 3rd-level Divine Soul Sorcerers gain Seeking Spell as a bonus Metamagic option.

Really like the idea of tuning some metamagics for wider applicability, it seems like many spells are supposed to work with certain metamagics (your example with distant counterspell is perfect), but don't by RAW.

This idea comes from a nerdimmersion video, so credit to them, but I really liked it. The "psionic sorcery" feature from aberrant mind should be a base class feature. It allows sorcs to cast their "domain spells" using sorcery points, bypassing the needs for any components (except those consumed by spells). Or maybe even have different subclasses get different metamagics when they use "divine sorcery", or "shadow sorcery", and whatnot. I think it goes a long way in giving them some more identity.

The idea I did have was to allow sorcerers to have added effects on spells they cast depending on the level of the slot they use to cast it. For example, a 9th level sorcerer that knows invisibility, could be able to use a 5th level spell slot and have a similar effect to mislead, or seeming (I know mislead is not a sorc spell, it's just food for thought).

I'll admit that from there I immediately thought of sorcs specializing in certain schools of magic, but now I realize it might bring them even closer to wizards. There are many "spell progressions" that can be construed, and maybe if they can only learn and cast spells from certain schools it could work, but I honestly don't know whether or not it's a good idea.

[Kane0]

-snip-


You can get much the same effect by using DMG spell points with the sorcerer (i reccommend only for sorc) and an extra metamagic learned at level 5-7 or so.

Tweaking some metamagic options is a good step though, careful being able to apply to any damage spell in order to KO instead of kill enemies being a good example.