Missing weapon niche - single-shot, high damage weapons (e.g. flintlock pistols)

[Greywander]

Basically, a weapon that has high damage, but requires extra time to reload. Say, for example, a flintlock pistol that deals 3d6 damage, but requires an action to reload. So when combat starts, you pull out the pistol, take a shot, and then drop or stow the pistol to draw your main weapon. I think this could have also worked for crossbows if we didn't want to bring in firearms.

I realize there's cheese potential if you have a lot of gold and can buy like 10 of these, but honestly that's kind of a cool character aesthetic anyway. Plus, the limit on how many weapons you can draw or stow on your turn would likely limit this somewhat. And by the time you have that much gold, you might have access to magic weapons or improved cantrips that offer comparable damage anyway.

It could have been interesting to make these weapons optimized for classes without Extra Attack (not counting the rogue, who needs to attack every round to get Sneak Attack). So these expensive and clunky but effective weapons would basically be relegated to non-martial classes, while martials are actually more effective with more conventional weapons. By that I mean that non-martials would use their action to reload, only shooting every other round, while martials would discard the weapon after the first shot.

I'm getting some deja-vu writing this up. Have I posted a similar thread before?

[Kane0]

Could I play a chainlock and have my famililiar reload my caddy of guns for me? Gunlock.

Edit: what about a wizard that has an unseen servant do the reloading? Gunmage.

And of course the glocktopus.

[Blood of Gaea]

Seems like you could just take guns from the DMG and remove the ability to reload them with a bonus action. I would also recommend making a reload take an extra length of time without proficiency in the weapon, say 30 seconds, or 5 rounds. This keeps you from doing cheese like having a low-level summon or cheap hireling reload your firearms for you in combat.

I would consider making a pistol version with lesser damage, and a long gun with the higher damage you're speaking of. Having to carry around a pile of rifles would make it much less reasonable to fire and drop 10 different firearms.

Low availability of ammunition can also make from some interesting plot hooks and add some interesting moments to social and exploration.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

5e just seems designed to have characters use 1 weapon exclusively and not deviate. There are very few enemies that have distinctions whether you hit them with bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. XBE feat is probably the worst offender, as even if you corner a ranged martial it's irrelevant; no need to take a penalty or switch tactics. When people say martials are boring and lack meaningful choices in combat they are largely right. Pretty much just figure out what weapon you want to use and devote resources to be amazing at that 1 thing.
So, I like where you are going, but the game has really gone another direction.

[Kane0]

5e just seems designed to have characters use 1 weapon exclusively and not deviate. There are very few enemies that have distinctions whether you hit them with bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. XBE feat is probably the worst offender, as even if you corner a ranged martial it's irrelevant; no need to take a penalty or switch tactics. When people say martials are boring and lack meaningful choices in combat they are largely right. Pretty much just figure out what weapon you want to use and devote resources to be amazing at that 1 thing.
So, I like where you are going, but the game has really gone another direction.

To be fair, its largely the same with casters when it comes to damage types.

[Amnestic]

Basically, a weapon that has high damage, but requires extra time to reload. Say, for example, a flintlock pistol that deals 3d6 damage, but requires an action to reload. So when combat starts, you pull out the pistol, take a shot, and then drop or stow the pistol to draw your main weapon. I think this could have also worked for crossbows if we didn't want to bring in firearms.

I realize there's cheese potential if you have a lot of gold and can buy like 10 of these, but honestly that's kind of a cool character aesthetic anyway. Plus, the limit on how many weapons you can draw or stow on your turn would likely limit this somewhat. And by the time you have that much gold, you might have access to magic weapons or improved cantrips that offer comparable damage anyway.

It could have been interesting to make these weapons optimized for classes without Extra Attack (not counting the rogue, who needs to attack every round to get Sneak Attack). So these expensive and clunky but effective weapons would basically be relegated to non-martial classes, while martials are actually more effective with more conventional weapons. By that I mean that non-martials would use their action to reload, only shooting every other round, while martials would discard the weapon after the first shot.

I'm getting some deja-vu writing this up. Have I posted a similar thread before?

Why wouldn't non-martials also discard it? They're, presumably, spellcasters. Who have spells. A firearm that does 3d6 damage is going to be used instead of a cantrip once a fight during the early levels (ironically when they probably can't afford them), maybe occasionally during the 5-10 period and then discarded from then onwards. Not even sure why you're trying to optimise firearms for spellcasters (which are the classes that don't get extra attack, sans Rogue) when they've already got plenty going on. Shouldn't expect firearm use be the purview of martials and not magicians?

[Sorinth]

I don't really see the point for spellcasters since spells should outclass it.

The only niche I see is Rogue-Thief since they could Fast Hands load as a bonus action instead of an action. And maybe something like Beastmaster Ranger since they can give up the extra attack, but loading is still a problem.


Now if talking strictly Pistols, then having them be a BA to fire gives all classes that don't use their BA something to do which gives the weapon a nice use. In this case you don't really have to up the damage.

[stoutstien]

I took the middle ground and adding in weapons that have higher damage dice but don't add the modifier to the total.

Did the opposite as well with weapons that have just a set damage based of the modifier but no dice at all.

[Catullus64]

Used firearms that function like this in my own games. Pistols do 2d6, Blunderbusses and Muskets 2d8, and Rifles 2d10. Ranges are typically shorter than corresponding crossbows. All have the Muzzle-Loading property, which means they require an Action to reload, specifically the Use and Object action which must be taken by someone proficient with the firearm. (A little bone thrown to Thieves).

Paladins, Rangers, Fighters, and certain subclasses (War, Tempest, Order and Forge Clerics, Valor Bards, etc) get proficiency in all firearms.

Rogues, Bards, and Warlocks get proficiency Pistols and Blunderbusses.

Added my own Firearm Expert feat:


Firearms with which you are proficient lose the Muzzle-Loading property, and gain the Loading property instead.
Bonus action attack with an off-hand pistol, a la Crossbow Expert
You reduce the Misfire chance of firearms with which you are proficient by 1. (See below).


Gave two additional properties: Misfire (X), means that an attack roll of X or lower on the die is an automatic miss. Armor-Piercing gives an alternate formula for calculating AC against firearms.

As a final piece of mechanics, to emphasize the volatile incompatibility of my setting's gunpowder with spells, and magical firearm or firearm with an active spell cast on it has a table of harmful magical effects to roll on when it misfires.

Feel free to use some, all, or none of that. I found it's worked pretty well for emulating the single-shot-and-switch fantasy for all but the most dedicated firearm user in the party.

Oh, also added Gunsmith's Tools as an artisan's toolkit, and added it to the list of starting tool proficiencies available to Dwarves.

[Jophiel]

Armor-Piercing gives an alternate formula for calculating AC against firearms.
I saw a homebrew Armor Piercing variant that gives increasing bonuses to hit as AC goes up to help mitigate the value of high AC against firearms. Are you using that or something else?

[Catullus64]

I saw a homebrew Armor Piercing variant that gives increasing bonuses to hit as AC goes up to help mitigate the value of high AC against firearms. Are you using that or something else?

Nope. You just calculate AC as if the target wasn't wearing any armor or shield. Magical bonuses from an armor or shield still apply, as do alternate AC formulas like Unarmored Defense. Took some tinkering to make the increased accuracy vs. armor feel balanced with the increased miss chance from Misfires (still not sure I've got it right), and sometimes you have to make some snap decisions about things like Barkskin or a monster's Natural Armor, but it's mostly been a pretty smooth system for slightly over a year's worth of campaign. Heavily armored characters still feel relevant, and I've introduced Firearm-Proofed Armors that grant some (albeit still much lower than base) AC vs. Armor-Piercing attacks.

[Martin Greywolf]

Basically, a weapon that has high damage, but requires extra time to reload. Say, for example, a flintlock pistol that deals 3d6 damage, but requires an action to reload. So when combat starts, you pull out the pistol, take a shot, and then drop or stow the pistol to draw your main weapon. I think this could have also worked for crossbows if we didn't want to bring in firearms.

I realize there's cheese potential if you have a lot of gold and can buy like 10 of these, but honestly that's kind of a cool character aesthetic anyway. Plus, the limit on how many weapons you can draw or stow on your turn would likely limit this somewhat.

This is pretty much how crossbows were actually used once you get to anything above stirrup or belt hook. Have one guy who can shoot and 1 or more apprentices to reload for him, and the only thing that limits how fast you can shoot is available ammunition. Although you're still somewhat slower than a bowman, since those crossbows need to be passed on over.

That's pretty important for low level adventures, because any schmuck with enough money and not much personal power can now have a unit that is able to defend a chokepoint with lethal efficiency.

That can be a good or a bad thing. Gear in DnD IS balanced by cost in some measure, so looking at how much more damage you do with this and incresing cost accordingly isn't out of the question. On the other hand, having 5 crossbows and 4 helpers is not exactly in line with the whole heroic fantasy thing.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

To be fair, its largely the same with casters when it comes to damage types.

I'm not sure I really agree with this. Maybe when you are talking resourceless damage and cantrips to a point, particularly Warlock. However, most of our casters tend to take a selection of spells to include at least a couple of damage types and different saves by tier 2. And with good reason; unless you are in an all Demon or all Devil campaign there is a fair degree of variation in resistances. The best example I can think of would be fireball, which is both overtuned and heavily resisted (and immune). Every caster we've had at our table has had a backup plan very quickly, with the possible exception of my Light Cleric who faught mostly Demons and didn't really have other blasty options so took Elemental Adept.

[Kane0]

Yeah, thats more or less what I meant sorry. Pick your favourite spell and have a backup or two ready. Not terribly different to picking your favourite weapon and having a backup just in case (often a ranged weapon for melee types and vice versa), although more variables to consider

[Person_Man]

I think there’s an Artificer subclass that specifically gets one big gun that fills this niche, but I’m AFB right now.

Or do feel like this should be a universal option? If its the latter, how would it be balanced with Extra Attacks? If it had a mandatory loading Action, couldn’t I just carry ten of them and take the TWF Feat to draw two each turn? Or just carry a gun and a greatsword, fire the gun first round, use greatsword for Extra Attack, then when I down an enemy draw another gun, rinse and repeat?

Seems like this design niche was purposefully filled by Cantrips. But I would be perfectly fine with any player trading a Cantrip or similarly class feature for a magic gun that dealt similar damage and took an Action to use.

[Phhase]

I think there’s an Artificer subclass that specifically gets one big gun that fills this niche, but I’m AFB right now.

Or do feel like this should be a universal option? If its the latter, how would it be balanced with Extra Attacks? If it had a mandatory loading Action, couldn’t I just carry ten of them and take the TWF Feat to draw two each turn? Or just carry a gun and a greatsword, fire the gun first round, use greatsword for Extra Attack, then when I down an enemy draw another gun, rinse and repeat?

Seems like this design niche was purposefully filled by Cantrips. But I would be perfectly fine with any player trading a Cantrip or similarly class feature for a magic gun that dealt similar damage and took an Action to use.

It was the original Gunsmith artificer, he has a bonus action reload 2d6 Thunder cannon with a range of 150/500.

[Jophiel]

If it had a mandatory loading Action, couldn’t I just carry ten of them
We just set a limit of one longarm (blunderbuss, carbine or musket) carried and up to three pistols. Sure, it's artificial but everyone recognizes that putting a cap on it for game balance is easier and better than creating a bunch of other mitigating rules with misfires or ruined shots in preloaded weapons, etc to gain the same effect.

[greenstone]

Doesn't a wand fit in this category?

I'd like crossbows to be in this category. I know D&D is all about heroic fiction, but the idea of a high level fighter firing a heavy crossbow 30 or 40 times a minutes stretches my sense of fiction way too far.

[Greywander]

If it had a mandatory loading Action, couldn’t I just carry ten of them and take the TWF Feat to draw two each turn? Or just carry a gun and a greatsword, fire the gun first round, use greatsword for Extra Attack, then when I down an enemy draw another gun, rinse and repeat?
Usually such weapons are inordinately expensive, as is the ammunition. So yes, if you have that kind of do$h, you could do that. It's valuable because even one shot can swing an encounter in your favor (e.g. if you one-shot an enemy, so now you're facing one fewer enemies), but I do feel like there are diminishing returns, and there's probably something better you can spend your money on.


On the other hand, having 5 crossbows and 4 helpers is not exactly in line with the whole heroic fantasy thing.
Works great for bandits, though.

Also, this would be great for someone RPing as some kind of captain or commander, maybe of a small group of mercenaries (the NPC helpers). Together you work like a well oiled machine, churning out those crossbow shots. Your helpers are also a point of weakness: one AoE could take them all down at once, disrupting this tactic.


Doesn't a wand fit in this category?
Kind of, I suppose. Most wands aren't single-shot and don't need to be reloaded, they just have limited uses so usually you only expend one use at the start of combat and then save the rest for later fights. Using it repeatedly often gives diminishing returns, e.g. a Wand of Fireballs would hit a maximal number of enemies on round 1, but as enemies scatter or die, you're hitting fewer enemies. Best to save the rest for the next fight, when enemies with full HP will be grouped up again.

[JonBeowulf]

It's all fun and cool until the DM throws it right back at you. How about equipping a few of Tucker's Kobolds with these.

If you can buy it, so can the bad guys.

[Jophiel]

It's all fun and cool until the DM throws it right back at you. How about equipping a few of Tucker's Kobolds with these.

If you can buy it, so can the bad guys.
Same would go for wands or any other suggested alternatives. Usually a DM doesn't give eight kobolds Wands of Fireballs because it would be no fun even if the party has a Wand of Fireballs.

[Willie the Duck]

It's all fun and cool until the DM throws it right back at you. How about equipping a few of Tucker's Kobolds with these.

If you can buy it, so can the bad guys.

Fundamentally (other than the basic 'we already have a primary combat model') I think this is why the official material doesn't have this -- it's overly good in niche situations like when used by swarms of enemy mooks, or that one PC who has figured out how to obviate the downsides.

[Amnestic]

Usually such weapons are inordinately expensive, as is the ammunition. So yes, if you have that kind of do$h, you could do that. It's valuable because even one shot can swing an encounter in your favor (e.g. if you one-shot an enemy, so now you're facing one fewer enemies), but I do feel like there are diminishing returns, and there's probably something better you can spend your money on.


I'm really confused as to what the niche you're aiming for with these is then. The one from your OP does equivalent damage to a 5th level firebolt (but also requires an action to reload). If they're pricey meatballs (for both guns and ammunition) are they going to even be available in the 1-4 range? You said you wanted this aimed at spellcasters but I'm not seeing the use case for it if it's so pricey.

I'm not against firearms but I'm just not sure what the situation is where I'd want a firearm you've described here.

[Greywander]

I'm really confused as to what the niche you're aiming for with these is then. The one from your OP does equivalent damage to a 5th level firebolt (but also requires an action to reload). If they're pricey meatballs (for both guns and ammunition) are they going to even be available in the 1-4 range? You said you wanted this aimed at spellcasters but I'm not seeing the use case for it if it's so pricey.

I'm not against firearms but I'm just not sure what the situation is where I'd want a firearm you've described here.
I think part of the problem here is how damage and HP scale in D&D. Perhaps a weapon like this just doesn't have a place because it's completely OP at low levels when you can't afford it, but weaker than your other options at higher levels when you can afford it. If the HP/damage bloat were removed from the game, a weapon like this could be deadly and useful at all levels, but I'm not really sure how you'd go about removing that bloat. It seems too baked into class progression and the magic system. Tweaking HP is easy, but damage is really spread out across individual class features and spells.