Does Nymph HD progress her druid caster levels?

[Jonjonjon4]

Hello folks, I am building a trio of epic nymphs for a adventure of mine, and I got a question about mosnter advancement.

Does nymph HD progress her druid caster abilities?

I mean, she have 7 HD and she casts as a Druid of 7th level.

I am aware that class levels stacks with racial caster level, but If I am not mistaken, some creatures spell capacity evolves with racial HD. I wonder if that is the case for the nymph

Thanks

[Khedrac]

Actually this is an idea question for the simple RAW thread, but anyway - I'm sorry but the answer is No.

First off, a Nymph actually has 6 hit dice not 7.

Secondly, the entry says "A nymph casts divine spells as a 7th-level druid" and not "A nymph casts divine spells as a druid of level equal to its hit dice plus one" or similar.
If the wording references the hit dice it will probably increase with hit dice, without it won't.

I recommend Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) on these forums.

[InvisibleBison]

It's true that, RAW, nymphs don't gain more casting as they gain more racial HD. But why should that matter? You're the DM (or at least adventure writer), you can change the rules if you think it would be better this way. Say that these three nymphs have been blessed by the god of nature to have greater magical powers or whatever. RAW exists to provide a common ground for online discussions, not to hinder a DM's creativity.

[Biggus]

I recommend Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) on these forums.

Weird, he's crossed out the ability score increases for monsters, but monsters do get them. MM, p.290.

[Jonjonjon4]

Actually this is an idea question for the simple RAW thread, but anyway - I'm sorry but the answer is No.

First off, a Nymph actually has 6 hit dice not 7.

Secondly, the entry says "A nymph casts divine spells as a 7th-level druid" and not "A nymph casts divine spells as a druid of level equal to its hit dice plus one" or similar.
If the wording references the hit dice it will probably increase with hit dice, without it won't.

Thank you for that! Exactly the answer I was looking for.



It's true that, RAW, nymphs don't gain more casting as they gain more racial HD. But why should that matter? You're the DM (or at least adventure writer), you can change the rules if you think it would be better this way. Say that these three nymphs have been blessed by the god of nature to have greater magical powers or whatever. RAW exists to provide a common ground for online discussions, not to hinder a DM's creativity.

Thanks for the suggestion. Actually I have created a brunch of monster by myself already, without guide lines.

In this case, I want to follow the rules because you can make extremely strong CHA builds and extremely strong builds for fey creatures

Nymphs are both of those, and also have very strong abilities

I just want to keep the balance because It is uncertain if my players will fight them or not, and maybe they become allies in the future (and my player are super strong, as their already existing allies).

But it is fine, I was wondering if the trio would have 1 or 3 druid casters (depending on nymph natural progression).

[Thurbane]

RAW? No, as others have pointed out.

I was actually a little surprised that the advancement line for Nymph is by HD, rather than "By character class".

Some creatures that advance their innate casting by HD are Spell Weavers and Sylphs (both from MM2, from memory).

Having said that, there is some precedent for a DM to overrule this.

The online adventure Tiger's Palace (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020830a) has an advanced Rakshasa whose innate casting is also advanced.

[King of Nowhere]

It's true that, RAW, nymphs don't gain more casting as they gain more racial HD. But why should that matter? You're the DM (or at least adventure writer), you can change the rules if you think it would be better this way. Say that these three nymphs have been blessed by the god of nature to have greater magical powers or whatever. RAW exists to provide a common ground for online discussions, not to hinder a DM's creativity.

or, more straightforwardly, you can just give them druid levels...

[SimonMoon6]

or, more straightforwardly, you can just give them druid levels...

Or druid prestige classes, just in case you want to avoid the question of "Would druid levels actually stack with 7th level druid casting" to which the answer might be "no".

[Thurbane]

Or druid prestige classes, just in case you want to avoid the question of "Would druid levels actually stack with 7th level druid casting" to which the answer might be "no".

The question of stacking with PrCs is a actually more controversial than stacking base class levels.


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

There is some question as to whether PrCs can directly advance innate casting, since they usually have language similar to "+1 level of existing class", and one reading is that innate casters have no "class" to advance.

[Maat Mons]

If you want any more suggestions for how to advance a nymph I tried to brainstorm some (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634120-Monsters-worth-their-CR%85-as-a-PC%85-in-gestalt&p=25128849#post25128849).

[vasilidor]

As a GM, I just make it stack. yes I am aware of the rule by raw.
I also like Spheres of power because the answer of "does it stack" is yes with monsters using it.

[Remuko]

In this case, I want to follow the rules because you can make extremely strong CHA builds and extremely strong builds for fey creatures

Nymphs are both of those, and also have very strong abilities

In that case do note they can only advance to 12 HD by RAW. If you want them to get any stronger than that they need class levels templates etc.

[Darg]

Druid levels would stack with the nymph spellcasting. You would be ECL 14 when you take your first level of druid to cast as an 8th level druid. For comparison:


Spells

A nymph casts divine spells as a 7th-level druid.

Spells

A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description

They are worded the same way and dragons can progress their casting with sorcerer levels.

As Thurbane quoted, RAW says they stack.

[KillianHawkeye]

I recommend Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) on these forums.


Weird, he's crossed out the ability score increases for monsters, but monsters do get them. MM, p.290.

To clarify, he does mention it later down in the post about advancing monsters. But monsters with higher racial Hit Dice are assumed to have their stat increases for those levels already included in their ability scores.

Once you level up past your original Racial Hit Dice, your ability scores increase with Character Level just like an ordinary character's do. For example, if your Vrock reaches Fighter 2, it has a total of 12 Hit Dice. That's a multiple of 4, so the Vrock can raise one of its scores by 1.

[Crake]

Druid levels would stack with the nymph spellcasting. You would be ECL 14 when you take your first level of druid to cast as an 8th level druid. For comparison:

The OP said he's building NPC nymphs for an adventure, so the fact that a player needs to be ECL14 to take druid levels is largely irrelevant. A nymph's base CR is 7, and since druid levels are associated class levels for a nymph (due to them having druid casting already), a Nymph's CR would simply be 7+ druid levels, easy enough.

[King of Nowhere]

I take the chance to ask here a nymph-related question: do blinding beauty require a saving throw every round? or succeeding once makes you immune for the rest of the encounter?

[Khedrac]

I take the chance to ask here a nymph-related question: do blinding beauty require a saving throw every round? or succeeding once makes you immune for the rest of the encounter?

Every round - there's no text saying otherwise. It's functionally very similar to a gaze attack.

[Remuko]

I take the chance to ask here a nymph-related question: do blinding beauty require a saving throw every round? or succeeding once makes you immune for the rest of the encounter?

i miss the 3.0 nymph where instead of blinding you it just killed you lol

[radthemad4]

Oddly, the default nymph can't actually take Druid levels due to being Chaotic Good. Could try going Green Whisperer into Fochlucan Lyrist or something. Or just become Neutral Good I suppose

[AlanBruce]

Oddly, the default nymph can't actually take Druid levels due to being Chaotic Good. Could try going Green Whisperer into Fochlucan Lyrist or something. Or just become Neutral Good I suppose

I haven’t looked at the SRD lately, but I’m fairly certain nymphs fall under the “usually chaotic good” clause. This means that, unlike Outsiders (and I know those have exceptions too), these fey can have an alignment different from that listed in their entry.

Druids, having to be any shade of neutral, could easily be adjusted to these particular nymphs by making them NG. However, in the end, they’re NPCs. Exceptions can happen. And a DM deciding to tack on druid levels to Chaotic Good beings and keeping them that way should not be cause for incensed warfare at the table.

[Thurbane]

I haven’t looked at the SRD lately, but I’m fairly certain nymphs fall under the “usually chaotic good” clause. This means that, unlike Outsiders (and I know those have exceptions too), these fey can have an alignment different from that listed in their entry.

Druids, having to be any shade of neutral, could easily be adjusted to these particular nymphs by making them NG. However, in the end, they’re NPCs. Exceptions can happen. And a DM deciding to tack on druid levels to Chaotic Good beings and keeping them that way should not be cause for incensed warfare at the table.

Indeed, they are Alignment: Usually chaotic good.

Its funny - between the fact are CG by default, and that their advancement line is by HD rather than class, it's almost like it never occurred to the devs that the most efficient way of powering up a Nymph was Druid levels.

But given the general lack of understanding of many of the rules, and virtually no grasp of the concept of optimization, present in much 3E material... I guess it's not that surprising.

[AlanBruce]

Indeed, they are Alignment: Usually chaotic good.

Its funny - between the fact are CG by default, and that their advancement line is by HD rather than class, it's almost like it never occurred to the devs that the most efficient way of powering up a Nymph was Druid levels.

But given the general lack of understanding of many of the rules, and virtually no grasp of the concept of optimization, present in much 3E material... I guess it's not that surprising.

I always found it odd they didn’t allow nymphs to progress via class levels rather than more RHD. I believe the Dryad has character level progression and it’s as emblematic as the nymph. I have ran nymph bard/rogues and they proved to be really effective.

[Remuko]

I always found it odd they didn’t allow nymphs to progress via class levels rather than more RHD. I believe the Dryad has character level progression and it’s as emblematic as the nymph. I have ran nymph bard/rogues and they proved to be really effective.

I feel youre misunderstanding the advancement thing. - means it cant advance at all. By class means it cant advance by HD (normally). But anything with an int of 3 or more can advance by class even if the advancement section mentions HD. So they are "allowed" to progress via class levels.

[KillianHawkeye]

Its funny - between the fact are CG by default, and that their advancement line is by HD rather than class, it's almost like it never occurred to the devs that the most efficient way of powering up a Nymph was Druid levels.

But given the general lack of understanding of many of the rules, and virtually no grasp of the concept of optimization, present in much 3E material... I guess it's not that surprising.

In this case, I really feel like it's more an assumption that a nymph wouldn't be interested in being part of the druidic organization, having to deal with other druids and such. They have druidic magic because that's the easiest way to give them nature magic, not because they'd actually want to be druids.