Specialist Wizards and UMD

[bekeleven]

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

Can a wizard with a prohibited school use spell-completion items (or other magic items) of that school with Use Magic Device?

The wording in the "prohibited schools" section is a hard no on using them, while the wording in the UMD skill description doesn't mention that as being a stumbling block so long as you have the skill ranks.

I think RAI is that wizards can put cross-class ranks into UMD and not be less effective than a commoner doing the same thing, and the prohibited schools description was written that way in order to not clutter a reader, who likely hadn't read the skills chapter yet, about extraneous information. But you could argue that either location is more specific, depending on your point of view.

The hard-negative wording of the original text is especially harsh to multiclass characters. Are you telling me that a Wizard 1 / Beguler 9 / Ultimate Magus 10 can't use a Wand of Charm Person if they banned enchantment?

As was pointed out here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/37113/can-a-wizard-use-wands-and-scrolls-of-spells-from-his-prohibited-schools-of-magi) on stackexchange, the situation gets even thornier if you add in Domain Granted Power.



There's a related argument that may also illuminate the RAI, but I don't think is directly relevant to the question as posed: Other magical items. Specialization specifically says that a specialist wizard can't "cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands" -- what about staves, or any other type of wondrous item? A wizard banning illusion can use their ring of invisiblity and their hat of disguise.

Anyway, just something I've been pondering lately.

[Thurbane]

That's a tricky one. I thought there was an actual citation that says yes, you can, but struggling to find it.

FWIW, I checked the FAQ, but couldn't find anything there. I did find this:


If a specialist wizard gains levels in a different spellcasting class, does her choice of forbidden spells affect her spell choice for the new class?
No. Though the School Specialization sidebar (PH 57) is not explicit, the forbidden schools pertain only to spells gained from the wizard class.

So for instance, a Wizard/Cleric who has banned Conjuration on their Wizard side should still be able to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

Also, this:


To activate a spell completion or spell trigger item, the spell in the item must appear on your class spell list. How do you handle a cleric’s domain spells? Most deities have three or four domains, but a cleric chooses only two of them. Are only the spells from the domains the cleric has chosen on his class spell list for the purpose of activating these items? Or are the spells for all domains associated with the cleric’s deity on his class spell list? Also, which spells are on a specialist wizard’s class spell list? Do all wizard spells remain on the wizard class spell list, even when the wizard has chosen a specialty and his prohibited schools?
If you’re a cleric, spells from the domains you have selected are part of your class spell list. Spells from domains you could have selected, but did not, are not part of your class spell list (unless you get them on your class spell list some other way, such as by gaining another domain or adding another class).
Spells from a specialist wizard’s prohibited schools are not part of his class spell list.

That last sentence in particular seems relevant.

IMHO, using UMD to activate a wand is not the same as auto-accessing it via a class list, else a single classed Rogue could not UMD a wand at all. It is an activation method independent of your class, and should therefore not need to check class restrictions.

[edit] Looked up an old forum thread, and someone posted a citation from the UMD skill description. These seem relevant to me:


Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

"spell ability" "another class" - say, a non-specialist Wizard? Or a Sorcerer?


Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.

Also, this quote seems to get chopped in the SRD, but it's on PHB p.85:


Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate.

Just had a thought; what about a multiclass Specialist Wizard/Cleric with the Magic domain? What happens when they try to use a Wand of a prohibited spell? Divide by zero error? :smallbiggrin: Oops, already mentioned in the OP.

Complete Arcane provides a more solid citation about how mutliclass characters work, than the one from the FAQ:


One way around at least part of this restriction is for a specialist wizard to take levels in sorcerer, using her sorcerer spellcasting ability to master the spells and magic items she cannot use as a wizard.

[Emperor Tippy]

Specific trumps general. You would need something in UMD that specifically says it can be used by someone who barred a school. Otherwise, the general rule that the specialist can't use scrolls and wands would apply.

[noob]

I always assumed specialisation applied to all the stuff written in the specialisation description and that it was non specific about the fact it had to apply to stuff within the class and so that specialising as a wizard prevents you from using cleric spells of the banned school if you were a cleric before.
I assumed too that it was even clearer with umd that the spells were barred(unless using a magic item that is not a scroll or wand such as a skull talisman).

[Thurbane]

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands.

The whole way they worded this was dumb. As written, Staffs are fine (if we are taking a very literal RAW reading) to UMD. Also, other spell trigger items that aren't wands should be OK: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633941-All-Spell-Trigger-items

Guessing at their intention, they should have said "Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from spell completion items, nor activate them from spell trigger items."

So, since the prohibition specifically says "are not available to the wizard" (underlining mine), how about a Specialist Wizard 1/Rogue 19? Can they UMD wands and scrolls of prohibited schools? How about a Wizard 7/Loremaster 10?

As I said, I personally consider UMD activation to be entirely separate from using your class spell list to use these items. The wording "are not available to the wizard" to me denotes the reason you can't use scrolls or wands in the normal manner of other Wizards is because the prohibited spells are no longer on your class list.


To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.


Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell.

I may be going more on RAI or RAMS than RAW, but I still feel the RAW is not 100% airtight one way or the other.

[redking]

This thread is wild. I had assumed that having another spellcasting class other than specialist wizard would alleviate the restrictions on spell trigger items, but it appears that a strict RAW interpretation of specialist wizard means that you may not even be able to use spell trigger items that you created yourself (items you created using spellcasting from another class).

That is somewhat similar to the spellcasting debuff from the Unseen Seer PrC. You get divination spellpower bonus which applies to all your spellcasting classes, and also an equivalent debuff to all your other schools for all your spellcasting classes. If you only have one spellcasting class, then whatever. But if you've got more than one spellcasting class, it's just painful. At least the Red Wizard barred schools only affects one of your classes and the spellpower benefits all of them.

[Darg]

Anything pertaining to a particular class as a class feature pertains only to that class. It's why a soulknife doesn't continue to gain mind blade features with a single level dip or a shadowdancer doesn't end up with a 15 HD shadow by level 20 (either of which wouldn't really be bad themselves, but it does encourage a multiclass style of play.)

UMD would indeed let you use these items because they are spells on another class' list.

[noob]

Anything pertaining to a particular class as a class feature pertains only to that class. It's why a soulknife doesn't continue to gain mind blade features with a single level dip or a shadowdancer doesn't end up with a 15 HD shadow by level 20 (either of which wouldn't really be bad themselves, but it does encourage a multiclass style of play.)

UMD would indeed let you use these items because they are spells on another class' list.
Except it is not the case in the opinion of some raw readers.
There is a lot of classes specifying "class level" by opposition to merely level and some people interpret it as meaning that otherwise it means total level if you merely mention the level.
Meaning that for example a rogue does not gets to keep progressing sneak attack with fighter levels because it mentions "rogue levels" but that other class features of the rogue that do not mention rogue level would progress.

[Thurbane]

This thread is wild. I had assumed that having another spellcasting class other than specialist wizard would alleviate the restrictions on spell trigger items, but it appears that a strict RAW interpretation of specialist wizard means that you may not even be able to use spell trigger items that you created yourself (items you created using spellcasting from another class).

This, at least, did get addressed. See my quote from Complete Arcane in my first post in the thread.

The murkier issue, is what if a Wizard picks up the Magic domain somehow without multiclassing?


Anything pertaining to a particular class as a class feature pertains only to that class. It's why a soulknife doesn't continue to gain mind blade features with a single level dip or a shadowdancer doesn't end up with a 15 HD shadow by level 20 (either of which wouldn't really be bad themselves, but it does encourage a multiclass style of play.)

UMD would indeed let you use these items because they are spells on another class' list.

I agree with this reading, FWIW.

[Thurbane]

Just flicking through some Rules of the Game articles to see if they touch on this. Sadly, not really, but they touch on some of the rules already discussed (how "official" you consider any of this is open for debate).

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a


Spell Trigger: This is the activation method for wands and staffs. Activating a spell trigger item requires no gestures or spell finishing, but you must speak a single word, and you must hold the item in your hand (or what passes for your hand).

To use a spell trigger item, you must have the spell that is stored in the item on your class spell list. You can use the item even if you're not high enough level to cast the stored spell (or even high enough level to cast any spells at all). It doesn't make any difference if the stored spell is arcane or divine, and your ability scores dont matter.

See the Player's Handbook (or other appropriate rulebook) for your class spell list. If you have a prohibited school of spells (if you're a specialist wizard, for example), the spells from that school aren't part of your class spell list. If you have access to clerical spell domains, the spells in the domains you've chosen are on your class spell list (spells from domains you could have chosen, but did not, are not on your class spell list). If you're multiclassed, you can use a spell trigger item that stores a spell that is on at least one of your class spell lists.

If a spell trigger item stores more than one spell (for example, a staff), you may find that you can use only some of the item's functions.

Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the spell stored in a spell trigger item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time.

So, what's relevant there? Firstly, staves get lumped in with wands and scrolls, which while I suspected is RAI, it is not RAW.

It also seems to strongly support the theory that the limitation for specialist wizards is because the prohibited spells are not on their class list. I know this is somewhat at odds with the ridiculous wording in the Specialist Wizards section.