Full round attack action as a poor flyer (Polymorph related)

[Dominion]

As a poor flyer I have to maintain half of my forward movement speed in order to avoid falling.
Does that mean poor flyers are unable to do full round attack actions in the air?

Can I use featherfall on myself to influence that in any way?

I Polymorph myself into a poor flyer after being hasted.
Does that change or influence the answer to the first question in any way?


If I dimension door I am no longer allowed to act until the end of my round.
Assuming I dimension door into the air while in the form of a poor flyer, does that mean I fall the 150ft (DM I) or 500ft (Xanathar's guide) and have to catch my fall at the start of the next round?

If the answer is yes, if I polymorph and share the spell with my familiar, does that mean he also loses all actions until the end of the round?
Does he too fall for one full round?

Polymorph and air combat is a bit overwhelming and I spent the better part of yesterday reading about it.
Thanks in advance for answers :)

[Khedrac]

As a poor flyer I have to maintain half of my forward movement speed in order to avoid falling.
Does that mean poor flyers are unable to do full round attack actions in the air?
Well they can do a full attack in the air, but they tend to drop out of the air when they do - so basically no they cannot.


Can I use featherfall on myself to influence that in any way?
It just changes how rapidly you fall having not moved forwards.
The way 3.5 combat works a poor flyer that starts in reach of an opponent can choose to carry out a full attack, but they then fall because they haven't moved forwards.


I Polymorph myself into a poor flyer after being hasted.
Does that change or influence the answer to the first question in any way?
3.5 haste - no as haste just grants an extra attack on a full attack and increases your speed.
3.0 haste - yes as haste used to grant an extra action that could be used for the movement.


If I Polymorph I am no longer allowed to act until the end of my round.
Not true, if you cast the polymorph yourself it is a standard action so you potentially still have your move action available.


Assuming I dimension door into the air while in the form of a poor flyer, does that mean I fall the 150ft (DM I) or 500ft (Xanathar's guide) and have to catch my fall at the start of the next round?
Interesting question, I think this one may be "ask the DM". I would probably rule that if you had moved before casting dimension door then that movement counts as the momentum needed to not stall. That said, if there is a RAW answer is is probably that you immediately fall (because you cannot take actions until your next turn).

If the answer is yes, if I polymorph and share the spell with my familiar, does that mean he also loses all actions until the end of the round?
Yes, it's an effect on the recipient that they lose actions regardless of casting method.

Does he too fall for one full round?
Probably.


Polymorph and air combat is a bit overwhelming and I spent the better part of yesterday reading about it.
Thanks in advance for answers :)
Very much so, it's the main bit of 3.5 where they had to keep facing in from 3.0 despite the decision to throw it out.

[Dominion]

First of all thank you so much for your reply :)

It's 3.5e, pardon me for not clarifying.



Not true, if you cast the polymorph yourself it is a standard action so you potentially still have your move action available.
Ahh that was my bad, I mistyped. I meant to say I can't do anything after dimension dooring. Fumbled up two sentences into one.


Well they can do a full attack in the air, but they tend to drop out of the air when they do - so basically no they cannot.
[...]
The way 3.5 combat works a poor flyer that starts in reach of an opponent can choose to carry out a full attack, but they then fall because they haven't moved forwards.

So assuming I am fine with falling at the end of my attack would I be able to do a full attack?

As for the rest, if my companion also loses his movement after dimension dooring and starts falling I could just use him as a hammer.

Polymorph both into large flyers, drop him on the enemy for 20d6 fall damage, dimension door away, start flying to catch my fall.

Seems pretty strong for a lvl4 spell, but extremely nice to have.

[Khedrac]

First of all thank you so much for your reply :)
you're welcome.

It's 3.5e, pardon me for not clarifying.
haste is one of the few areas where it really matters which version, I assumed 3.5 but I thought I would drop that one in there.


So assuming I am fine with falling at the end of my attack would I be able to do a full attack?
Yes, but it does rely on your opponent either moving next to you or not moving away.


As for the rest, if my companion also loses his movement after dimension dooring and starts falling I could just use him as a hammer.

Polymorph both into large flyers, drop him on the enemy for 20d6 fall damage, dimension door away, start flying to catch my fall.

Seems pretty strong for a lvl4 spell, but extremely nice to have.
Now the falling damage done to what you land on is not the same as the falling damage you take, but I don't recall the details.
And yes, polymorph is a very strong spell, but that is not why. Also - do that too often and you will kill your familiar - remember, the spell no longer affects the recipient's hit points.

[Dominion]

you're welcome.

Yes, but it does rely on your opponent either moving next to you or not moving away.

My idea was that I would just drop that distance.

As in, I Dimension Door 150ft above him, fall down and start my round next to him, still technically falling.



Now the falling damage done to what you land on is not the same as the falling damage you take, but I don't recall the details.
And yes, polymorph is a very strong spell, but that is not why. Also - do that too often and you will kill your familiar - remember, the spell no longer affects the recipient's hit points.

it's 1d20 per 200 pounds after a distance of 20ft fallen and an additional 1d20 per increment it increases.

Large creates are minimum 500 pounds and I would fall 150 ft. That's a minimum of 500/200 = 2, 150 / 20 = 7 -> 9d6 fall damage. At best the monster weighs 2 tons which is 2000/200 = 10, 150/20 = 7, 17d6

So if I pick a heavy large monster and drop one round I can get 17d6 fall dmg on him and similar damage on my familiar.

And if it kills him it's just 100g and one day of meditation. I think that's stronk.

[Saintheart]

As a poor flyer I have to maintain half of my forward movement speed in order to avoid falling.
Does that mean poor flyers are unable to do full round attack actions in the air?


Well they can do a full attack in the air, but they tend to drop out of the air when they do - so basically no they cannot.

Minor footnote: they can, if they have the Hover feat. But that usually requires them to be hovering when they start their turn in order to pull off a full round action.

[Psyren]

Does that mean poor flyers are unable to do full round attack actions in the air?


You can if you're okay falling at the end of your turn.

If you're playing Pathfinder, you can attempt a Fly check to hover and ignore that rule, but Poor maneuverability imposes a penalty.

[Gorthawar]

...
Does that mean poor flyers are unable to do full round attack actions in the air?

[edited]
...
Assuming I dimension door into the air while in the form of a poor flyer, does that mean I fall the 150ft (DM I) or 500ft (Xanathar's guide) and have to catch my fall at the start of the next round?

If you have pounce you can full attack as a poor flyer even in the air. Otherwise you need something like the hover feat.

You can't teleport (or dimension door) or summon into thin air in line with the rules for conjuration spells (don't know how to link stuff but check the magic overview section of the srd). Had to find out when my party wanted to summon bears on top of their enemies :).

[Dominion]

You can't teleport (or dimension door) or summon into thin air in line with the rules for conjuration spells

Ohh good catch, thank you that would have been bad. Our DM isn't quite up there with mage stuff so he would have let it slide thank you for noticing!



Thanks everyone for your help :)

[Troacctid]

You can teleport yourself into thin air just fine. You just can't teleport other creatures to your location if it would leave them Wile E. Coyote-ing.

[Dominion]

Does that mean I can dimension door straight into the air but can't take anyone with me?

[Troacctid]

Does that mean I can dimension door straight into the air but can't take anyone with me?
You can take people with you just fine. Nobody's being brought to your location—they're being brought from your location to a totally new destination.

[Dominion]

Okay, that's good to know.

[Gorthawar]

You can teleport yourself into thin air just fine. You just can't teleport other creatures to your location if it would leave them Wile E. Coyote-ing.

As this reading would allow summoning bears on top of your enemies (not my location.) I nixed it in my game. I'd speak to the DM if I were you and agree on how you want to play it. Just remember that whatever you can do the monsters and NPCs can do as well.

[ShurikVch]

If I dimension door I am no longer allowed to act until the end of my round.
Assuming I dimension door into the air while in the form of a poor flyer, does that mean I fall the 150ft (DM I) or 500ft (Xanathar's guide) and have to catch my fall at the start of the next round?
Dimension Door (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm):

After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
See: "can’t take any other actions"
"No actions" means "no actions"
Thus, you wouldn't fall - because it required a free action



As this reading would allow summoning bears on top of your enemies (not my location.) I nixed it in my game. I'd speak to the DM if I were you and agree on how you want to play it. Just remember that whatever you can do the monsters and NPCs can do as well.
Did you also banned usage of Blockade spell?
Because 2000 lbs. equals what - 13d6 of falling damage?

[Gorthawar]

Did you also banned usage of Blockade spell?
Because 2000 lbs. equals what - 13d6 of falling damage?

The way I read the rules all conjuration spells need to transport or create stuff onto a supporting surface. Same goes for blockade. Having said that blockade has even more specific language on where the block of wood can be created.

[Khedrac]

See: "can’t take any other actions"
"No actions" means "no actions"
Thus, you wouldn't fall - because it required a free action
No - because falling is passive - it doesn't require any action of the part of the faller - it is involuntary.

[ShurikVch]

No - because falling is passive - it doesn't require any action of the part of the faller - it is involuntary.
Quote, please?
I mean - usually, involuntary activity required the same type of actions as voluntary - such as running away in panic (when not running away could be more advantageous, but - panic...) take the same Move action (or, more likely, - full round for double move)

[Khedrac]

Quote, please?
I mean - usually, involuntary activity required the same type of actions as voluntary - such as running away in panic (when not running away could be more advantageous, but - panic...) take the same Move action (or, more likely, - full round for double move)

If you take that attitude the inanimate objects and paralysed creatures cannot fall either as they cannot take (physical) actions. Falling is something that happens, it is not an action you take of any sort. Running away in panic is a compelled action, falling is just something that happens - is is not an action. That said, you can fall as part of an action e.g. jumping down a drop (which again shows that falling is not an action itself).

[ShurikVch]

If you take that attitude the inanimate objects and paralysed creatures cannot fall either as they cannot take (physical) actions.
Inanimate object are able to make actions just fine: traps, after all, make their attack rolls - which is a standard action.
For paralysed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) creatures -

A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.
- specific trumps general.


Falling is something that happens, it is not an action you take of any sort. Running away in panic is a compelled action, falling is just something that happens - is is not an action. That said, you can fall as part of an action e.g. jumping down a drop (which again shows that falling is not an action itself).
Rules disagreeing there: "Drop to the floor" is on the Table: Free Actions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions)...

[loky1109]

Rules disagreeing there: "Drop to the floor" is on the Table: Free Actions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions)...

Drop to the floor isn't falling, it is changing pose from stand to prone.

[ShurikVch]

Drop to the floor isn't falling, it is changing pose from stand to prone.
Can you show me the RAW which confirms it?
Also - do you mean flying(/swimming/climbing/borrowing) creatures are unable to "Drop to the floor" - because they aren't standing on a floor?

[loky1109]

Can you show me the RAW which confirms it?

PHB
List of free actions in table (p. 141)

Cast a quickened spell
Cease concentration on a spell
Drop an item
Drop to the floor
Prepare spell components to cast a spell
Speak

List of free actions with descriptions (p. 144).

FREE ACTIONS
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though your DM may limit the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Some DMs may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can’t speak while flat-footed (and thus can’t warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action; to communicate more information than that, your DM may require that you take a move action or even a fullround action.
Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on an active spell (such as detect evil) as a free action.
Cast a Quickened Spell
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat, page 98) or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free action (such as the feather fall spell) as a free action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don’t count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of a free action doesn’t incur an attack of opportunity.

For unknown reasons there aren't "Prepare spell components to cast a spell" in descriptions section and "Drop to the floor" rename to "Drop Prone".



Also - do you mean flying(/swimming/climbing/borrowing) creatures are unable to "Drop to the floor" - because they aren't standing on a floor?
Yes.

prone: Lying on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot used a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
PHB, p. 311

[ShurikVch]

List of free actions with descriptions (p. 144).

Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
Don't see any contradiction there: "your space" have no "roof" (nor, for that matter, "bottom") - you may fall 10000 km, but still would be at "your space" (as long as you don't deviate from the "straight downward" course)


Yes.

prone: Lying on the ground.
PHB, p. 311
And who, exactly, said a flying(/swimming/climbing/borrowing) creature wouldn't lay on the ground after they stopped their respective movement and started falling(/sinking) down?

[loky1109]

Don't see any contradiction there: "your space" have no "roof" (nor, for that matter, "bottom") - you may fall 10000 km, but still would be at "your space" (as long as you don't deviate from the "straight downward" course)

Your space isn't square, it is cube. But anyway, even if we can "drop on the flor" from 10000 km, "drop on the flor" isn't same as "fall".


And who, exactly, said a flying(/swimming/climbing/borrowing) creature wouldn't lay on the ground after they stopped their respective movement and started falling(/sinking) down?


Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.
DMG, p. 20

After landing you can. But falling takes time.

And you definitely can't "lay on the ground" before landing.

[ShurikVch]

Your space isn't square, it is cube.
Can you quote it?
As far as I know, battle grid is flat:

Space: Space is the width of the square a creature needs to fight without penalties (see Squeezing Through, below). This width determines how many creatures can fight side by side in a 10-foot-wide corridor, and how many opponents can attack a creature at the same time. A creature’s space does not have a front, back, left, or right side, because combatants are constantly moving and turning in battle. Unless a creature is immobile, it effectively doesn’t have a front or a left side—at least not one you can locate on the tabletop.
See? It says about "width", but not "height"...


But anyway, even if we can "drop on the flor" from 10000 km, "drop on the flor" isn't same as "fall".

DMG, p. 20

After landing you can. But falling takes time.

And you definitely can't "lay on the ground" before landing.
Presuming we falling from high enough - say, aforementioned 10000 km - then yes, we wouldn't be on the floor in a single turn
But, firstly, it doesn't contradicts anything - because "specific trumps general"
And, secondly, there can be a question: what type of action it take to fall the appropriate distance downward at your turn?
(And before you would say "No action" - sorry, but "No actions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#miscellaneousActions)" are listed too, and falling isn't among them)

[loky1109]

Can you quote it?

Can't.


See? It says about "width", but not "height"...
And this means that nobody can fly? No. But all I can find about three-dimensional battle field is:


Tactical Aerial Movement
The elf barbarian mounted on the giant eagle swoops over the group of mind flayers, launching arrows from his bow. One of the mind flayers wears winged boots and takes to the air to better confront the elf. Once movement becomes three-dimensional and involves turning in midair and maintaining a minimum velocity to stay aloft, it gets more complicated.


But, firstly, it doesn't contradicts anything - because "specific trumps general"
You claim that creature in less or equal than 150 ft above ground can't fall after Dimension Door because they can "drop on the flor"?
But creature that appear higher fall?
This is very... counterintuitive.


(And before you would say "No action" - sorry, but "No actions" are listed too, and falling isn't among them)
No action is action, too. They need to be distinguish from something that isn't action.


And, secondly, there can be a question: what type of action it take to fall the appropriate distance downward at your turn?
And I say falling isn't action at all. Not "no action", not any other type of actions.

[ShurikVch]

You claim that creature in less or equal than 150 ft above ground can't fall after Dimension Door because they can "drop on the flor"?
But creature that appear higher fall?
This is very... counterintuitive.
Clarification: they would fall - but only on their next turn; until then - they would stay mid-air...



No action is action, too. They need to be distinguish from something that isn't action.
But did rules distinguished it?
AFAIK, everything is an action - either your, or somebody else
(Say, a Giant can pick you and throw like a rock - you would move; it's not your action; but still an action)



And I say falling isn't action at all. Not "no action", not any other type of actions.
You said it; but do rules really make such distinction?

[loky1109]

Clarification: they would fall - but only on their next turn; until then - they would stay mid-air...
Depending on height?
And, why? If falling is action I simply can don't perform it.


AFAIK, everything is an action - either your, or somebody else
If you true, you simply answer me: what action is falling?


FALLING
One of the most common hazards to adventurers is a fall from some great height.
Falling Damage: The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.
If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Jump check or DC 15 Tumble check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumped, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Jump or Tumble check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
Falls onto yielding surfaces (soft ground, mud) also convert the first 1d6 of damage to nonlethal damage. This reduction is cumulative with reduced damage due to deliberate jumps and the Jump skill.
This "merely slipping or falling".

Plus, can you tell what action is breathing? It isn't in action list in PHB.
And how about lying prone or standing still and don't move or do anything? What action is this and can I do it after DD?


You said it; but do rules really make such distinction?
In rules there aren't action "fall" as I can see.

[ShurikVch]

Depending on height?
No, completely independent.


And, why? If falling is action I simply can don't perform it.
It's forced: you can't not take it, just like you can't to not take a Move action while in panic (presuming you have available unblocked path to flee)


If you true, you simply answer me: what action is falling?
Free action.



Plus, can you tell what action is breathing? It isn't in action list in PHB.
I'm presuming it isn't written anywhere else too.
But I would hazard a guess it's part of another action - after all, you usually need to breath in order to talk (and talking is a free action)


And how about lying prone or standing still and don't move or do anything? What action is this and can I do it after DD?
Easy: it's Delay (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#delay)!


In rules there aren't action "fall" as I can see.
If you drop a coin from a tower - it would fall
Thus, "fall" = "drop"

[loky1109]

It's forced: you can't not take it, just like you can't to not take a Move action while in panic (presuming you have available unblocked path to flee)
And you can prove it, can't you?


Free action.
Can you prove it, too?



If you drop a coin from a tower - it would fall
Thus, "fall" = "drop"
Definitely "fall" != "drop".
You drop a coin, but what action perform it? What action do you perform if somebody drop you? What is difference between this and satiation after DD?

If you talk about Drop Prone, how about falling when there are no floor or other ground?




No, completely independent.
I can agree with this, but not for the reason of "can't take any action". As I understand after DD you can't do anything because you have no time at all. But this isn't RAW.