Divine Abilities for a Religious Spy

[AllHailthed4]

I've got a character who, as part of her arc, will be converting to the church of Heironeous late in the campaign. If possible, I'd like to find some mechanical ability to give her to memorialize the experience (something like a feat, learned manuever, spell, varient ability, etc.)

As a battledancer/sorcerer/spell thief, she's not a typical follower of the Arch-Paladin, but as the group's primary striker and only skill monkey, I'm not looking to change up her mechanics too much. We're playing 5e, but our DM is always happy to convert older material, so edition is no object. Further multiclassing is probably a no-go, given how thin-spread her levels are already going to be.

Any suggestions?

[Anymage]

What level is the character? Boons and charms are already things in the DMG, so there's plenty of precedent for giving a feat or item effect without tying it to a physical magical item.

As for the nature of the ability, if they're high enough level, I'd be tempted to go with Dispel Magic once per day or some other sort of dispelling ability. (The Break Enchantment effect of Dispel Evil and Good, at will, comes to mind.) As a spy for the forces of Good you're going to want to undermine evil macguffins, and free people who have been compelled into following the forces of evil. That plus being able to free yourself from any bad mojo you might get yourself stuck in sounds like a handy and appropriate tool.

[AllHailthed4]

What level is the character?

She's level 6 now, but this will probably happen around level 10. Her class breakdown will be battledancer 5/Sorcerer 4/Spell Thief 1.


As for the nature of the ability, if they're high enough level, I'd be tempted to go with Dispel Magic once per day or some other sort of dispelling ability. (The Break Enchantment effect of Dispel Evil and Good, at will, comes to mind.) As a spy for the forces of Good you're going to want to undermine evil macguffins, and free people who have been compelled into following the forces of evil. That plus being able to free yourself from any bad mojo you might get yourself stuck in sounds like a handy and appropriate tool.

I do plan to take Dispel Magic as soon as I get 3rd level spells. As for Dispel Evil and Good, I hadn't thought about it. Our DM isn't usually a big fan of cursed items, but he seems to be pulling out all the stops for this particular BBEG (a cleric lich) so it definitely could be useful :smallsmile:

[JackPhoenix]

What's a battledancer and a spell thief? Unless the former is a full caster, you won't get 3rd level spells at all.

[Sigreid]

Nustel's Magic Aura

[Grey Watcher]

What's a battledancer and a spell thief? Unless the former is a full caster, you won't get 3rd level spells at all.

Respectively, a Wizard and a Rogue subclass. Battledancer is basically Wizard Fish (a few times per day you can send your AC into the stratosphere). Spellthief is what it sounds like: you steal spell slots and such.

[JackPhoenix]

Respectively, a Wizard and a Rogue subclass. Battledancer is basically Wizard Fish (a few times per day you can send your AC into the stratosphere). Spellthief is what it sounds like: you steal spell slots and such.

I assume you mean Gish, not Fish, and that's Bladesinger, not Battledancer. Rogue doesn't have a subclass at level 1, which the proposed character build has.

[PattThe]

Use Project Image to have an alibi up to 500 miles away. That 17th level Arcana Cleric feature looks fun for an NPC with tools for everything..

Ah, PC multiclass. Uhhhhh, Actor feat? What stats are we talking?

[Arkhios]

What's a battledancer and a spell thief? Unless the former is a full caster, you won't get 3rd level spells at all.

Respectively, a Wizard and a Rogue subclass. Battledancer is basically Wizard Fish (a few times per day you can send your AC into the stratosphere). Spellthief is what it sounds like: you steal spell slots and such.

I assume you mean Gish, not Fish, and that's Bladesinger, not Battledancer. Rogue doesn't have a subclass at level 1, which the proposed character build has.

OP did mention their DM is more than willing to convert old material.

Battle Dancer is a whole class from 3.5; essentially a weird amalgam between monk and bard, that gains combat benefits from "dancing". It had nothing to do with wizards and most certainly isn't same as Bladesinger; If anything, as a 5e subclass it would most likely be a monk subclass.

Likewise, Spellthief is a whole class from 3.5, that is, weirdly enough, very close to what Arcane Trickster is in 5e. They get sneak attack and spellcasting up to 4th level spells, but unlike Arcane Trickster also have the ability to literally steal spells from others. It really doesn't convert to 5e straightforwardly, but I guess it would steal spell slots instead of actual prepared spells (because how spellcasting differs from 3.5). I guess if it was a rogue subclass it could be an alternative to Arcane Trickster, giving up some Arcane Trickster abilities for Spell Steal.

It would seem that OP's DM is very leniently converting those classes as-is into 5e, instead of making them subclasses of existing 5e classes, and as such they wouldn't follow the standards of 5e as we know them.

Not exactly the approach I would take as a DM, but who am I to judge; if they're all having fun and everyone is on board with this, I guess each to their own.

I would probably just take the whole character concept and fuse it into one class altogether. Maybe something along the lines of 1/3-spellcasting roguish "monk" with slowed-down progressions for both Unarmed Damage and Sneak Attack (possibly even going so far that their unarmed damage didn't improve beyond 1d4 or maybe 1d6 but letting them deal sneak attack with unarmed strike), the ability to steal spells, and using Sorcerer spell list instead of Wizard's.

[Mastikator]

Battledancer, sorcerer and spell thief all have the arcane flavor. I wouldn't call that religious, or at least if this character has magic that magic has a secular origin. In my mind I'd go for a plain cleric of trickery with the criminal (spy) background. The alternative is a rogue arcane trickster with acolyte background. My suggestion- since your DM is open to bending the rules is to allow certain paladin spells onto the arcane trickster spell list; for example Zone of Truth.

[Deathtongue]

What kind of spy are we talking about here?

Scarlet Pimpernel? James Bond? Artemis Enteri? Batman? Sasuke Sarutobi? Lot of ways you can play that character.

[AllHailthed4]

OP did mention their DM is more than willing to convert old material.

Battle Dancer is a whole class from 3.5; essentially a weird amalgam between monk and bard, that gains combat benefits from "dancing". It had nothing to do with wizards and most certainly isn't same as Bladesinger; If anything, as a 5e subclass it would most likely be a monk subclass.

Likewise, Spellthief is a whole class from 3.5, that is, weirdly enough, very close to what Arcane Trickster is in 5e. They get sneak attack and spellcasting up to 4th level spells, but unlike Arcane Trickster also have the ability to literally steal spells from others. It really doesn't convert to 5e straightforwardly, but I guess it would steal spell slots instead of actual prepared spells (because how spellcasting differs from 3.5). I guess if it was a rogue subclass it could be an alternative to Arcane Trickster, giving up some Arcane Trickster abilities for Spell Steal.

Well explained. With regard to Spelltheif, I would just add that it's a 1/2 caster class that trades in most of the more roguish abilities (e.g. expertise) for that spell stealing ability. The sneak attack progression is also significantly slower.


It would seem that OP's DM is very leniently converting those classes as-is into 5e, instead of making them subclasses of existing 5e classes, and as such they wouldn't follow the standards of 5e as we know them.

What can I say, they're a Grognard and proud of it :smallsmile:

[AllHailthed4]

Battledancer, sorcerer and spell thief all have the arcane flavor. I wouldn't call that religious, or at least if this character has magic that magic has a secular origin.

Yep, and she's currently an agnostic (or, as close to one as possible when the gods literally grant people magic on a daily basis.) The idea is to work closely with the church later in the game (if/when the baddies start hitting a little close to home), but not to join the clergy.

I'm more interested in giving a small mechanical nod to the alliance rather than building around it, if that makes sense.


My suggestion- since your DM is open to bending the rules is to allow certain paladin spells onto the arcane trickster spell list; for example Zone of Truth.

Our DM's played across most of the editions, and is pretty adept at at converting material over to 5e and balancing it with the existing class/subclasses (if anything, the converted classes tend to err on the weak side). That said, they're unlikely to allow out-of-class spells. Thanks for the suggestion though :smallsmile:

[AllHailthed4]

What kind of spy are we talking about here?

Scarlet Pimpernel? James Bond? Artemis Enteri? Batman? Sasuke Sarutobi? Lot of ways you can play that character.

Huntress, actually :smallwink:

[Sorinth]

If looking for a feat then Actor might be the best for a spy. Especially if magic is fairly common in your setting because the more common magic is the more likely there would be things that counteract it. Such as doorways that dispel illusion magic when you pass through them.

[SleepyShadow]

Howdy. OP's DM here. Just chiming in with the classes she's working with.

Spellthief (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9j3k2.png) and Battle Dancer (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9jnSf.png)

I hope it helps. Feel free to use these in you own games if you like. Cheers.

[PhantomSoul]

Howdy. OP's DM here. Just chiming in with the classes she's working with.

Spellthief (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9j3k2.png) and Battle Dancer (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9jnSf.png)

I hope it helps. Feel free to use these in you own games if you like. Cheers.

Much appreciated! (I haven't looked through them yet, but this seems quite necessary for potentially answering the OP... plus I'm curious to have a look!)

[AllHailthed4]

Howdy. OP's DM here. Just chiming in with the classes she's working with.

Spellthief (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9j3k2.png) and Battle Dancer (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9jnSf.png)



Silencer and Capoeira subclasses, respectively.

[Arkhios]

Howdy. OP's DM here. Just chiming in with the classes she's working with.

Spellthief (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9j3k2.png) and Battle Dancer (https://pasteboard.co/Kf9jnSf.png)

I hope it helps. Feel free to use these in you own games if you like. Cheers.

I'll try my best not to be blunt about it, but both seem to need quite a bit of work before I would consider them in line with the rest of the 5th edition. Several individual class features seem to be almost exactly as written in 3.5.

Like, the spellthief's ability mentioning an XP cost when casting a spell, or that they can't apply metamagics on them. The thing is, in 5th edition, XP costs to spellcasting does not exist. At all. Likewise, metamagic is a class feature for entirely separate class. Speaking of a theoretical inability to use an ability from another class is, to put it mildly, awkward and clumsy design. Yes, since Tasha's you can get a few metamagic options with a feat, but feats are optional rule and shouldn't be referred in class design, imho.

Also, Battle Dancer appears to have unarmed damage progression exactly as in 3.5, making it twice as powerful if compared to 5th edition monk, whose unarmed damage only improves up to 1d10.

In short, these look more like copy-pastes than conversions to me.

I wouldn't personally allow either of these classes in a 5th edition game without making several fixes.


As a side note, I started with 3.5 and played happily for years. So I do have a smidgen of respect towards the edition. Heck, I still do have a weekly game of 3.5 going on. What I feel as strange is that, proud grognard or not, people can't or won't understand that different editions have different standards. You just can't arbitrarily mix contents and expect there's some inherent balance between different editions of D&D.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but it's how I feel, and I can't just will myself to not feel the way I do.

But, again, to each their own. If it's not an issue in your table, good for you. It's just me that I wouldn't use these without a heavy revision to make them align with the rest of the current edition.

[SleepyShadow]

But, again, to each their own. If it's not an issue in your table, good for you. It's just me that I wouldn't use these without a heavy revision to make them align with the rest of the current edition.

Cool, but off-topic. OP just needs some suggestions for her church spy.

[Arkhios]

Cool, but off-topic. OP just needs some suggestions for her church spy.

Fair. My apologies.


If the character's sorcerous origin is not set in stone, one possibility could be to revert to Divine Soul via some sort of ritual-ish event, at a relevant point to represent the connection to divine powers.

[PhantomSoul]

Fair. My apologies.


If the character's sorcerous origin is not set in stone, one possibility could be to revert to Divine Soul via some sort of ritual-ish event, at a relevant point to represent the connection to divine powers.

Or to give a Cleric Domain's Domain Spells (it sounds with the homebrew power level this wouldn't be that much, and giving an entire cleric domain as a second subclass could even fit if everyone has abilities in line with the homebrewed/retrograbbed classes)

[Arkhios]

Or to give a Cleric Domain's Domain Spells (it sounds with the homebrew power level this wouldn't be that much, and giving an entire cleric domain as a second subclass could even fit if everyone has abilities in line with the homebrewed/retrograbbed classes)

That's actually quite neat idea. +1 for this.

[AllHailthed4]

Or to give a Cleric Domain's Domain Spells (it sounds with the homebrew power level this wouldn't be that much, and giving an entire cleric domain as a second subclass could even fit if everyone has abilities in line with the homebrewed/retrograbbed classes)

I like the idea too, but my DM vetoed it. Oh well, can't concentrate on Spirit Guardians and Shadow Blade at the same time anyway.


If the character's sorcerous origin is not set in stone, one possibility could be to revert to Divine Soul via some sort of ritual-ish event, at a relevant point to represent the connection to divine powers.

The sorcerous origin is pretty well set (can't belive I forgot to mention it). She's an abyssal tiefling, so the wild magic is in her blood :smallwink:

[PhantomSoul]

I like the idea too, but my DM vetoed it. Oh well, can't concentrate on Spirit Guardians and Shadow Blade at the same time anyway.

To be fair, I wouldn't have done it either haha (well, for secondary subclass or and almost certainly not for out-of-class subclass; for expanded spell list or bonus spells I might've, but I already give sorcerers expanded lists and am using classes/subclasses adapted to be closer to the PHB baseline than the homebrew you've already got on buffet!)


The sorcerous origin is pretty well set (can't belive I forgot to mention it). She's an abyssal tiefling, so the wild magic is in her blood :smallwink:

Hm, so an "awakening" or affiliation could easily be the wild magic features gradually no longer being wild magic features (settling on more divine or celestial ones).

[AllHailthed4]

Hm, so an "awakening" or affiliation could easily be the wild magic features gradually no longer being wild magic features (settling on more divine or celestial ones).

You have a very good point. I might just have to run with this. Thanks for the help!