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mr_stibbons
2021-08-05, 04:04 PM
I've been spending a lot of time mulling over the monk class recently. I love the flavour, but can't shake the feeling that monks end up both very underpowered and very samey. This is my attempt to power up and add some variety to the monk.

Increase hit die to d10

Unarmoured defence-as is

Flurry of blows-
At first level when you take the attack action while unarmed or wielding a single non-heavy weapon, you may make an additional attack with an unarmed strike. These unarmed strike does not add any ability modifier to the damage roll. At 5th level, make two additional attacks with unarmed strikes . At 11th level, make 3 attacks.

first big change-rather than being able to spend a ki for an extra punch starting at level, you gain attacks to your flurry as you level, but don’t add dex to extra strike damage. Also, this no longer costs a bonus action. This is based off my own solutions for fixing two weapon fighting and trades damage at low levels for better scaling and freedom of your bonus action. This is less powerful at level 1, but some of that is being made up for by the new martial arts styles. It also opens up some more creative ways to optimize monks, like picking up hex or other uses for your bonus action, to keep in line with other heavily optimized martial classes.

Martial arts-At first level when you attack with an unarmed strike or a non-heavy weapon, and aren’t wearing armour or a shield, you make use dex instead of strength for the attack and damage roll, and may replace their damage die with your marital arts die, as shown in the martial arts column(which has not changed).

In addition, choose one marital arts style from the list below, and gain it’s benefits.

-Tiger’s claw- when you hit an enemy with a flurry of blows attack, add 2 to the damage roll. When you roll initiative, add your wisdom modifier to the final result.

-Vipers-fang- the first time you hit a creature with a flurry of blows attack on your turn, choose one of the following effects-
-it has disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes
-it’s movement speed is reduced by 10ft
-reduce the result of the next saving throw it makes by 1d4

-Flowing river-+1 ac, opportunity attacks targeting you are made at disadvantage.

-Diamond mind-when you or a creature within 5ft of you is hit with an attack, you may use your reaction to reduce the damage by a roll of your martial arts die+ your wisdom modifer+your monk level

-Patient spider-When you make a grapple or shove attempt, you may use your wisdom modifier in place of your strength modifier. when a creature within 5ft of you misses you with a melee attack, you may make a grapple attack against them.

-Dragons claw-you may spend a reaction to use your wisdom modifier in place of any other ability score when making a saving throw.
You may reroll damage rolls of 1 or 2 on any damage die you roll

This one of the main reasons I wanted to do this rework-making all monks less samey. Base monks, without meaningful choice of weapons and no choices in their features until your subclass, which are not particularly powerful, all feel the same. Now, you get your choice of a powered up fighting style to make your monk behave differently from other monks, just like a fighter can use their choice of weapons and subclass to differentiate themselves. These are a bit more powerful than regular fighting styles because each monk is using basically the same “weapon” and because monks already have a long list of lv1 features that mostly just get them up to par with a fighter’s starting gear, and adding another ability to the list would be a bit clunky. Generally these should skew monks in a more defensive direction.

At this point, the vast majority of monk subclasses have an explicit supernatural aspect to them instead of directly mimicking an existing fighting style. I personally feel that there's no flavour issue with separating the mundane combat techniques from the supernatural subclass.

Note that I've removed the language about monk weapons in favour of "non-heavy" weapons, basically incorporating Tasha's Dedicated Weapon optional rule into the core rules.

Unarmored movement-as is

Ki- Ki progression as is, patient defence and step of the wind as is (though these no longer compete with extra attacks, making them more potent). Replace flurry of blows with Focused aim-when you miss with an attack, you may spend 1 ki to re-roll the hit roll. You must use the result of the new die

buying extra attacks is now removed, instead deft strike got moved to replace it. I would expect monks at this level are making more use of patient defence and step of the wind early in their career, doing less damage but being more survivable. Deft strike is technically more efficient than flurry was at low levels in terms of expected damage per ki spent, but only when you miss your weapon attack.

Monastic Tradtion-as is

Ki-fuelled attack-Basline.

Of all the Tasha's features, I feel like Ki-fuelled attack is the most necessary, working as a subclass specific patch. Focused Aim has been moved to be part of the base Ki feature, and I don't feel that the final healing feature was really relevant, and am leaving it optional

Additional marital arts style-At third level you may chose a second known martial arts style. Using a bonus action, you may switch between your known martial arts styles

Deflect missiles has been converted into the more broadly useful Diamond mind style, and as compensation your monk gets a degree of flexibility. I just like the concept of marital artists learning different styles of fighting for different situations, to add a bit more customization to your monk. I'm a little concerned this is too many decisions at level 3, but am not sure there's a good level to move this too. I'd like you to have your second style fairly early.

Extra attack-as is

Stunning strike-Once per turn, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.

stunning strike is the most controversial ability in the monk kit, and since I am trying to tune the class up, it is going to take a bit of a hit. Only being able to make stun attempts once per turn prevents forcing the bbeg to make 3-4 saves in a row until he’s out of legendaries or fails. Also encourages you to spend your ki on other things by preventing you from spamming stuns.

Ki-empowered strikes and subclass feature-as is

Evasion and Stillness of mind-as is

Unarmored movement improvement-as is

Improved martial arts styles- at 9th level your martial arts styles improve. You gain the listed abilities when benefiting from the corresponding martial arts style

Tiger’s claw-when you take the attack action, you may spend one ki. If you do, add your dex modifier to the damage dealt by your flurry of blows attacks.

Viper’s fang- when you hit an enemy, spend 1 ki. That enemy must make a dexterity saving throw or take additional damage equal to one roll of your martial arts die and be blinded until end of turn.

Flowing river-when you use the patient defence action, you may also double your movement speed

Diamond mind-when you use your reaction to reduce damage granted by this style, you may spend 1 ki to make an unarmed attack against the triggering monster. If the monster made a ranged attack, you deflect the missile or magic, and may treat your unarmed strike as a thrown weapon with range of 60ft for this reaction attack. If this attack hits, reduce the damage inflicted by the triggering attack by half the damage dealt in addition to the normal damage reduction.

Patient spider-spend 1 ki when making a grapple or shove attempt to gain advantage and ignore size restrictions when making a grapple or shove attempt

Dragon heart-when you hit a target with a melee attack, you may spend 1 ki to deal extra radiant, fire, lightning or cold damage. This damage is equal to two rolls of your marital arts die.

Ninth level for monks was pretty sparse, and I liked the idea of the marital arts styles having Ki fuelled special moves too much not to include them. This provides a level of further differentiation to the martial arts styles corresponding somewhat to the various weapon specialization feats.

Subclass feature-move to level 10 so flurry scaling occurs at tier breakpoint

Purity of body-as is-at level 11

Generally, marital classes are supposed to be gaining a serious damage boost at level 11. The monk subclasses mostly don't provide this, but sometimes they do. I've added level 11 scaling to flurry of blows to provide this a bit more consistently, but that can make your level 11 powerspike pretty massive for some subclasses. To smooth this out, I've swapped the subclass feature and the less splashy purity of body feature.

Personal style
At 13th level, you have created a personalized marital arts style fusing the techniques of your existing styles. You gain the benefits of both known martial arts styles at all times.

The culmination of this thread of the marital styles, this is a fluff progression I really like, even if it’s not super good. Nothing says “martial arts master” like having your own custom style made up of the best bits of a bunch of other styles.

Tounge of the sun and moon-as is, unless someone has a better idea.

Diamond soul-as is

Masterful form-At 15th level if your total for a dexterity check is less than your dexterity score, you can use your score in place of the total

Timeless body-as is

Timeless body is a very cool and flavourful ribbon, but it is a ribbon that shouldn’t be taking up a level by itself. I’ve added a utility feature fo help this feel like a real level

Trance of perfection- at 18th level, you may spend 4 ki points to enter a precognitive trancelike state for 1 minute. While in this state, you have advantage on attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks, and score critical hits on a roll of 19 or 20. All attack rolls that target you in this state have disadvantage.

Empty body is mechanically fine, but the flavour always felt off to me-it’s such a specific supernatural effect, that didn’t really fit on many subclasses. Trance of perfection is a more generic effect, basically a 1 minute foresight, which is intended to be a sidegrade, trading damage resistance for advantage on saves, expanded crit ranges, and not being shut down by true sight/blindsight.

Perfect Self-at the start of any of your turns, if you have no Ki remaining you gain 2 Ki points.

Yakk
2021-08-05, 04:36 PM
So my model of 5e is that there is a square



Ranger Fighter Barbarian Paladin
Rogue Cleric
Monk Druid
Warlock Wizard Sorcerer Bard

Top is "brawler", right is "support", bottom is "sage" and left is "trickster".

Corners are cross overs.

Based off this, I'd argue that a d10 HD monk should be a subclass feature, not a core one.

---

For Flurry of Blows, maybe require that you be holding only one weapon? That blocks two weapon fighting.

noob
2021-08-05, 04:48 PM
So my model of 5e is that there is a square



Ranger Fighter Barbarian Paladin
Rogue Cleric
Monk Druid
Warlock Wizard Sorcerer Bard

Top is "brawler", right is "support", bottom is "sage" and left is "trickster".

Corners are cross overs.

Based off this, I'd argue that a d10 HD monk should be a subclass feature, not a core one.

---

For Flurry of Blows, maybe require that you be holding only one weapon? That blocks two weapon fighting.

This square does not works properly because you can do nearly everything (except dedicated brawler) with bards (the only restriction is that a single bard does not do everything)
You can do a support bard, a sage bard, a trickster bard, an hybrid between support and trickster bard and so on.

A monk can for a short time do the job of a brawler by using its ki (I assume it means beating up opponents while surviving what the opponents throws at you) then the monk run out of resources while a cleric can hardly do the brawler job(not even in bursts) and in your square a cleric is closer to the brawler side than a monk.

Kuulvheysoon
2021-08-05, 05:13 PM
This square does not works properly because you can do nearly everything (except dedicated brawler) with bards (the only restriction is that a single bard does not do everything)
You can do a support bard, a sage bard, a trickster bard, an hybrid between support and trickster bard and so on.

A monk can for a short time do the job of a brawler by using its ki (I assume it means beating up opponents while surviving what the opponents throws at you) then the monk run out of resources while a cleric can hardly do the brawler job(not even in bursts) and in your square a cleric is closer to the brawler side than a monk.

I think that Yakk's square is only looking at the base class, not the subclasses. That's why they called out a d10 moving monk up towards Brawler, as that'd be a more marital monk than the base class implies.

And you cannot really have a brawler bard without Valor or Swords, not really. Limited weapon selection, light armor only, and no incentive to go to the front. Base Clerics, on the other hand, are much better equipped (literally) with the same lame weapon selection, but medium armor and shields, along with a suite of (again, base) spells well suited to personal combat.

Monks have the same issues as bard, really, in this context. They've effectively got light armor (Unarmored Defense is probably a bit more, but it's balanced out by monks being MAD as usual), and their weapons deal low base damage, and their entire relevance to combat depends entirely on ki, which you can blow through really, really fast. Compare to the cleric, which can just concentrate on a single spell the entire encounter.

Though now I'm curious as to how an Artificer fits into Yakk's Square.

noob
2021-08-05, 05:54 PM
I think that Yakk's square is only looking at the base class, not the subclasses. That's why they called out a d10 moving monk up towards Brawler, as that'd be a more marital monk than the base class implies.

And you cannot really have a brawler bard without Valor or Swords, not really. Limited weapon selection, light armor only, and no incentive to go to the front. Base Clerics, on the other hand, are much better equipped (literally) with the same lame weapon selection, but medium armor and shields, along with a suite of (again, base) spells well suited to personal combat.

Monks have the same issues as bard, really, in this context. They've effectively got light armor (Unarmored Defense is probably a bit more, but it's balanced out by monks being MAD as usual), and their weapons deal low base damage, and their entire relevance to combat depends entirely on ki, which you can blow through really, really fast. Compare to the cleric, which can just concentrate on a single spell the entire encounter.

Though now I'm curious as to how an Artificer fits into Yakk's Square.
{Scrubbed}
And concentrating on a single spell all a fight as a cleric will not make you better at brawling than even a non brawling focused monk that decides that it is going to spend all its resources in three turns for brawling.

mr_stibbons
2021-08-05, 06:18 PM
So my model of 5e is that there is a square



Ranger Fighter Barbarian Paladin
Rogue Cleric
Monk Druid
Warlock Wizard Sorcerer Bard

Top is "brawler", right is "support", bottom is "sage" and left is "trickster".

Corners are cross overs.

Based off this, I'd argue that a d10 HD monk should be a subclass feature, not a core one.

---

For Flurry of Blows, maybe require that you be holding only one weapon? That blocks two weapon fighting.

Editing flurry to only work when holding one weapon is a good idea.

I'm not entirely sure what your definitions for these categories are, but lumping the monk in with the ranger and rogue isn't as logical as it might appear. For one, the monk is a dedicated melee class outside two subclasses, whereas ranger and rogue are hybrid melee/range classes, depending on the build. Monks have to get into melee range to fight, and their disengage/defence tools are limited by Ki. Secondly, monks don't have notable bonuses to their non-combat skills, or access to utility magic. Just the regular 4 starting skills, and the ability to run up walls at level 9, whereas the ranger and rogue have utility magic, and some powerful exploration abilities and more skills+ expertise respectively. I don't think this is a problem, the concept of a monk is someone who has dedicated their life to the study of combat and has limited "real world" experience, but it does mean the class has to justify itself solely on the basis of what it can do in combat.

For this reason, I was running off a great weapon fighter as the baseline for the monk's functionality. Ideally I could have used a dual wielding fighter, but dual wielding is an underpowered mess in 5e. Both are classes that are primarily melee damage dealers, without much non-combat utility. The damage is roughly equal-revised monk has a bit of an advantage from 5-10, fighter is better at 11+, and fighter is generally going to have a higher baseline AC, but can't dodge as a bonus action. Equalizing the hit die made sense to me on the basis of that comparison, to keep monks alive in the early levels when they don't have the Ki to dodge or stun every turn. If this ends up with the monk pulling ahead too much in the later levels, we could tone it down at those levels.

JNAProductions
2021-08-05, 06:28 PM
This is a whole heaping helping of buffs.

I get that Monks aren't necessarily a powerhouse like Paladins are, but they certainly aren't that weak.

In terms of just raw damage, I'll check a level 17 Monk against a level 17 Fighter.

Monk
2 attacks at +11 to-hit, for 1d10+5 damage
4 attacks at +11 to-hit, for 1d10+2 damage (1d10+7 if you spend one Ki point, which you have 17 of per Short Rest)
That's 51 damage on average if everything hits, 71 if you spend one ki.

Fighter
3 attacks at +11 to-hit, for 2d6+5 damage (Rerolling 1s and 2s)
That's 40 damage on average if everything hits. Twice per short rest, you can double this with an Action Surge.

The Monk also has the same hit die as the Fighter now, though likely a little less Con. And they're faster. Their ACs should be comparable. The Monk has better saves for sure. It's just... Better than the Fighter.

mr_stibbons
2021-08-05, 06:58 PM
This is a whole heaping helping of buffs.

I get that Monks aren't necessarily a powerhouse like Paladins are, but they certainly aren't that weak.

In terms of just raw damage, I'll check a level 17 Monk against a level 17 Fighter.

Monk
2 attacks at +11 to-hit, for 1d10+5 damage
4 attacks at +11 to-hit, for 1d10+2 damage (1d10+7 if you spend one Ki point, which you have 17 of per Short Rest)
That's 51 damage on average if everything hits, 71 if you spend one ki.

Fighter
3 attacks at +11 to-hit, for 2d6+5 damage (Rerolling 1s and 2s)
That's 40 damage on average if everything hits. Twice per short rest, you can double this with an Action Surge.

The Monk also has the same hit die as the Fighter now, though likely a little less Con. And they're faster. Their ACs should be comparable. The Monk has better saves for sure. It's just... Better than the Fighter.

While 17 is one of the worst points you could compare these at, that's fair. I don't think high level fighters are in the best place unless you pull some shenanigans, like multiclassing or abusing GWM. The damage at high levels is probably too much, and I think I should probably drop the fourth flurry attack to cut down somewhat.

Part if the problem is the linear scaling of Ki. Trying to make all the options competitive in lower levels when the monk is pretty Ki staved makes them very good once you can spend it more freely. Class balance at 17 is a bit of a mess in general.

EDIT-actually, what is up with your math. 6d6+15 averages 46 before rerolling dice. 5d10+ 18 averages 45.5. Am I missing something?

MORE EDIT-Clearly I'm missing one of the monks D10s. Fighter damage is still really low, should be around 49 with damage rerolls factored in. The fourth flurry attack puts the monk over the fighters at will damage. Which hasn't changed since lvl 11, to be fair, and the monk has been doing 38.5 damage assuming everything hits round until 17, when it gains a die size and an extra attack. Keeping the monks at three flurry attacks leaves the monk at only 43.5, and means the monk still has to spend resources to beat the fighters base performance.

quindraco
2021-08-06, 08:56 AM
I think level 1's abilities should be deeply re-worked, and any changes there propagate, so the rest of the class would have to be reworked, but here's how I'd do level 1.

Unarmored Defense: You can calculate your unarmored Armor Class as 10 + X + Y. X and Y can be any two different choices from your Dexterity bonus, your Wisdom bonus, and your proficiency bonus. This does not stack with shields. You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, which does not stack with the bonus from the Dual Wielder feat.
Rangers with Dex 14 can be AC 18 with normal Stealth and 19 with Disadvantage out the gate, climbing to 19 with normal Stealth by level 8 at the latest with ASIs, and that will climb with magic armor or a magic shield. Barbarian Unarmored Defense goes to 22, up to 25 with an up to +3 shield. Since Monks can't use Shields, I don't see a reason to prevent L17+ monks from reaching AC 21 if they try, and at lower levels, like L13-L16, this can still reduce MADness. Reducing MADness makes Monks less samey, since there's more flexibility in build choices.

Martial Arts: Your body parts can count as distinct one-handed simple melee weapons being held or wielded in one hand for any purpose; for two-weapon fighting, two different body parts can count as two different weapons. All melee weapons with which you are proficient which lack the Heavy and Special properties, including unarmed strikes, gain the following properties:

Finesse
Light
Can deal your proficiency die in damage instead of their listed damage.

When wielding a weapon with the Finesse property, you can use Wisdom instead of Strength or Dexterity. When you make a Grapple or Shove attack with a Finesse weapon, you can use Wisdom or Dexterity instead of Strength.
Furthermore, you gain a fighting style chosen from the following list:
Blind Fighting
Dueling
Interception
Superior Technique
Two-Weapon Fighting
Unarmed Fighting

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace any Monk fighting style you know with a Monk fighting style.

mr_stibbons
2021-08-06, 05:25 PM
I think level 1's abilities should be deeply re-worked, and any changes there propagate, so the rest of the class would have to be reworked, but here's how I'd do level 1.

Unarmored Defense: You can calculate your unarmored Armor Class as 10 + X + Y. X and Y can be any two different choices from your Dexterity bonus, your Wisdom bonus, and your proficiency bonus. This does not stack with shields. You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, which does not stack with the bonus from the Dual Wielder feat.
Rangers with Dex 14 can be AC 18 with normal Stealth and 19 with Disadvantage out the gate, climbing to 19 with normal Stealth by level 8 at the latest with ASIs, and that will climb with magic armor or a magic shield. Barbarian Unarmored Defense goes to 22, up to 25 with an up to +3 shield. Since Monks can't use Shields, I don't see a reason to prevent L17+ monks from reaching AC 21 if they try, and at lower levels, like L13-L16, this can still reduce MADness. Reducing MADness makes Monks less samey, since there's more flexibility in build choices.

Martial Arts: Your body parts can count as distinct one-handed simple melee weapons being held or wielded in one hand for any purpose; for two-weapon fighting, two different body parts can count as two different weapons. All melee weapons with which you are proficient which lack the Heavy and Special properties, including unarmed strikes, gain the following properties:

Finesse
Light
Can deal your proficiency die in damage instead of their listed damage.

When wielding a weapon with the Finesse property, you can use Wisdom instead of Strength or Dexterity. When you make a Grapple or Shove attack with a Finesse weapon, you can use Wisdom or Dexterity instead of Strength.
Furthermore, you gain a fighting style chosen from the following list:
Blind Fighting
Dueling
Interception
Superior Technique
Two-Weapon Fighting
Unarmed Fighting

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace any Monk fighting style you know with a Monk fighting style.

You're still locking the monk into dual wielding, and thus forcing them to spend their bonus action every turn to keep up in damage. This will force you to jump through a ton of hoops to actually make the class work. I'd prefer not to redo the entire class from scratch.

You've also given the monk higher ac than anyone without a shield at level 1, which is a little awkward.

Nuptup
2021-08-31, 06:34 PM
Any further updates on this? I'd just like to say that I definitely think this would make for a really cool rework for the class, allowing more freedom in their bonus action usage and getting rid of the annoyance that is flurry for most play sessions. I'm just wondering if you've made any more progress with it or if I can help in any way?

Magikeeper
2021-08-31, 09:28 PM
Most games are played at levels 1-12ish, so balance checks at 17 are iffy. EDIT: That said, neither of those classes get a lot at high levels. Monks in particular get next to nothing at that point.

Also, these comparisons aren't including feats. Feats are technically optional, but who doesn't allow them? There are some powerful, commonly taken combat feats monk's can't benefit from since they don't use range weapons nor heavy weapons. Or weapons at all, because WotC decided unarmed strikes shouldn't count for some absurd reason. The fighter gets additional ASI's as well, which basically wasn't factored into the calculations. That's like saying if you ignore most of the fighter's class features it lags behind this souped-up super monk in base damage (by ~12 points).

The issue for accounting for such things with base class abilities is that you end up with a PC with a very high optimization floor, such that the monk is running circles around everyone if they aren't taking strong combat feats. The easiest solution is to alter the design so that monks can benefit from combat feats

You can see a lot of people defending the current monk online. I've noticed that monk defenders generally assume they'll always have ki, which suggests a lot of groups have few encounters per short rest.

----

Fixing monk, general direction:
> Raise the optimization *ceiling* - Things that allow the monk to keep up with optimizing PCs if they also optimize but doesn't make them stronger in a group with a sword-and-board champion fighter and a wizard upcasting burning hands. This is easier said than done, granted.
> Make every subclass less reliant on ki. It's not a crime against the universe to give monks spell slots, among other things.
> Tweak the monk so they either don't need ki to be at all useful offensively or give them a ki mechanic that works better for groups that don't take frequent short rests.
> Probably nerf stunning strike as part of making everything else better.
EDIT: Giving monks something besides niche fluff abilities at high levels wouldn't be amiss either.

Less general:
> Have Ki-empowered strikes additionally give monks a way to channel the powers of a magic weapon they're keeping on their person / attuned to into some of their attacks. Somehow word this in a way that doesn't let them attack with magic weapon powers more often than other characters could. Perhaps they can channel the magic into any monk weapon they're wielding? Channel it without spending ki, specifically. This solves monk issues in groups where magic weapons are really common without making them stronger in games without a bunch of magic weapons.