Incorporeality, Antimagic Field, and Orb of Fire

[Doctor Despair]

As I understand it, the Orb of X line of spells, when cast from outside an antimagic field, function normally on subjects within that field. This is because the effects of instantaneous conjurations are not suppressed by antimagic -- only the conjuration itself, and the conjuration is no longer in effect once the orb is created.

With that said, incorporeal creatures have an immunity to nonmagical attacks.



Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.


Leaving aside the effects of a ghost touch weapon or a force spell, would an incorporeal creature be immune to an orb of fire spell, or would they merely have a 50% chance to evade such an attack?

On the one hand, I see an argument to be made that it is a spell, so it should bypass the immunity.

On the other hand, the interaction with antimagic field seems to suggest that instantaneous conjurations are not attacking with magic, but rather using magic to attack with an otherwise mundane substance -- in this case: fire. Based on that reading, the incorporeal creature would explicitly not be able to be harmed by the fire.

What do you think is the correct reading? I'd ask on the RAW thread, but this seems a little too murky to be a simple question to my eye.

[Anthrowhale]

My understanding is that no damage occurs.

However, to have an uncontroversial combination of incorporeal and antimagic field, you need to use selective[you] antimagic field, since the rules compendium says that incorporeal creatures (not just incorporeal undead) wink out. Even this causes some complaints due to some people imagining that selective spell works like Extraordinary Spell Aim or the Archmage's Mastery of Shaping. These complaints appear illegitimate to me since selective spell only affects the interaction between a creature and a spell rather than a spell and all things in a space.

[Beni-Kujaku]

As I understand it, the Orb of X line of spells, when cast from outside an antimagic field, function normally on subjects within that field. This is because the effects of instantaneous conjurations are not suppressed by antimagic -- only the conjuration itself, and the conjuration is no longer in effect once the orb is created.

With that said, incorporeal creatures have an immunity to nonmagical attacks.

It is still a spell‚ and there is no mechanical reason it shouldn't bypass incorporeality. RAW‚ the ghost pretty clearly has 50% chance to be hurt.

In a campaign with experienced players (ones who know the fluff of the spell and wouldn't be annoyed that they can't cast a specific spell on that creature) ‚ however‚ I would definitely rule that it is nonmagical fire‚ and it goes through the ghost. The Orb ofs have way too few ways someone can resist them‚ and adding one will balance them more than make them unplayable.

[Crake]

It is still a spell‚ and there is no mechanical reason it shouldn't bypass incorporeality. RAW‚ the ghost pretty clearly has 50% chance to be hurt.

In a campaign with experienced players (ones who know the fluff of the spell and wouldn't be annoyed that they can't cast a specific spell on that creature‚ however‚ I would definitely rule that it is nonmagical fire‚ and it goes through the ghost. The Orb ofs have way too few ways someone can resist them‚ and adding one will balance them more than make them unplayable.

Orb of Force though should probably still work, since it's a [Force] effect.

[PraxisVetli]

Orb of Force though should probably still work, since it's a [Force] effect.

Wait so if they all work because you magically conjure normal fire, what exactly does Orb of Force do?
Magically conjure normal force? Does that not seem odd?

[Darg]

Wait so if they all work because you magically conjure normal fire, what exactly does Orb of Force do?
Magically conjure normal force? Does that not seem odd?

They were originally designed as evocations. You just have to suspend your disbelief for these spells. Or, you can be like me and return them to evocation.

Also, spell resistance isn't really a problem with the Arcane Mastery feat and spell penetration.

[Biggus]

Wait so if they all work because you magically conjure normal fire, what exactly does Orb of Force do?
Magically conjure normal force? Does that not seem odd?

Yeah, I always thought this was a contradiction. In the introduction to the Argent Savant class (CArc p.24) it says


Of all the energies summoned or shaped by magic, force is perhaps the most pure. No analog for this power exists in the physical world; it comes into being only through the medium of spells

I guess whoever wrote that didn't talk to the person who wrote the Orb of Force spell...


Or, you can be like me and return them to evocation.

Yeah, I've done the same.



Sonic Orb was never updated so it's still an evocation spell.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Is orb of sound not an update of sonic orb?

[Doctor Despair]

Yeah, I always thought this was a contradiction. In the introduction to the Argent Savant class (CArc p.24) it says



I guess whoever wrote that didn't talk to the person who wrote the Orb of Force spell...

Maybe it conjures a nonmagical orb containing pure force, or fire or what have you

[Darg]

I'm not sure what you mean here. Is orb of sound not an update of sonic orb?

It's just me forgetting that spell existed. Please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


I guess whoever wrote that didn't talk to the person who wrote the Orb of Force spell...

Or maybe the person who changed the orb spells didn't bother telling people that they were doing that and so no one was able to think that a few spells would upend everything that was created to provide structural integrity to how spells work.


Maybe it conjures a nonmagical orb containing pure force, or fire or what have you

If that's the case, nothing mentions it nor the need for it to be breached to access the energies inside.

Funnily enough, by RAW you can cast these spells and pick up the orbs afterward.

[ShurikVch]

Wait so if they all work because you magically conjure normal fire, what exactly does Orb of Force do?
Magically conjure normal force? Does that not seem odd?
Speculation: Force Dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon) is made of normal force...

[Telok]

Wait so if they all work because you magically conjure normal fire, what exactly does Orb of Force do?
Magically conjure normal force? Does that not seem odd?

We always had them leave invisible bowling balls laying around afterwards.

[Thurbane]

Ah yes, the question of "What exactly is Orb of Force conjuring?". Making the Orb spells Conjuration was a "cheat" designed to boost a school that really didn't need it, while simultaneously undermining a school that needed all the love it could get.

Maybe there is some kind of Plane of Force not mapped on the great wheel. After all, Mage Armor is apparently conjured from somewhere as well, not to mention Decataves, Phantasmal Thief and Choke. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and side note: the fact that Mage Armor is conjured also screws over Abjurant Champions.

I love that right there in core, the three 1st level Wizard spells with the Force descriptor are split into Abjuration, Conjuration and Evocation. :smallsigh:

[Tzardok]

You know, I thought for years that Mage Armor was an Evocation.

[PraxisVetli]

You know, I thought for years that Mage Armor was an Evocation.

Yeah this is a bit of a revelation.
So that armour existed somewhere then? Just sitting in a force-smiths back room in a force-town?

[Tzardok]

Yeah this is a bit of a revelation.
So that armour existed somewhere then? Just sitting in a force-smiths back room in a force-town?

Well, it is a conjuration (creation). So it doesn't find a force armor lying around somewhere, it makes a force armor from force that's floating around somewhere. A little better, but not a lot.

[Darg]

Conjuration (creation) creates something that has an effect by its existence. The orb spells are the opposite of that. Causing effects beyond what the created substance can do itself is a different school entirely. At best, I would say that the orb spells are a conjuration/evocation hybrid school spell, before hybrid schools became a thing. Honestly, flavor wise it works very similarly to kelgore's fire bolt other than the reflex vs attack roll.

Sheathing the created substance in arcane energy to keep its orb shape in flight and gets rid of the issue of being able to pick up the orbs off the ground as the "effect" is over once it hits or misses so the energy dissipates. Add spell resistance to the rider effect and you have a much more polished spell that fits the narrative better.

[Vaern]

They were originally designed as evocations. You just have to suspend your disbelief for these spells. Or, you can be like me and return them to evocation.


Ah yes, the question of "What exactly is Orb of Force conjuring?". Making the Orb spells Conjuration was a "cheat" designed to boost a school that really didn't need it, while simultaneously undermining a school that needed all the love it could get.

I may have gone on a rant or two at some point about how dumb it is that the orb spells are all conjuration instead of evocation, despite the fact that they look and behave in basically every way as evocations except for the SR: No that comes with being a conjuration. I don't recall whether I actually hit post on said rant(s) because they may have only been tangentially related to the main subject of the thread and I may have thought better of it.

Anyway, it doesn't say spells affect incorporeal creatures. It says magic affects them. The effects of the Orb spells, as they are written as conjugations, are non-magical effects that happen to have been conjured by magic. The effect of an instantaneous conjuration is only brought into existence, and is not bound or held into shape by any sort of magical force. The orb itself, and by extension the damage it deals, is not magical, and thus an incorporeal creature would not be subject to its effects. Except, of course, orb of force, as incorporeal creatures are specifically vulnerable to force effects independently from their vulnerability to magic.

[Darg]

I may have gone on a rant or two at some point about how dumb it is that the orb spells are all conjuration instead of evocation, despite the fact that they look and behave in basically every way as evocations except for the SR: No that comes with being a conjuration. I don't recall whether I actually hit post on said rant(s) because they may have only been tangentially related to the main subject of the thread and I may have thought better of it.

Anyway, it doesn't say spells affect incorporeal creatures. It says magic affects them. The effects of the Orb spells, as they are written as conjugations, are non-magical effects that happen to have been conjured by magic. The effect of an instantaneous conjuration is only brought into existence, and is not bound or held into shape by any sort of magical force. The orb itself, and by extension the damage it deals, is not magical, and thus an incorporeal creature would not be subject to its effects. Except, of course, orb of force, as incorporeal creatures are specifically vulnerable to force effects independently from their vulnerability to magic.

It is still a nonmagical attack form as is and the part about still taking damage pertains to the 50% chance to ignore damage. If an Ex ability shot a ray of positive energy damage, I wouldn't let it affect the incorporeal as it is nonmagical first and foremost.

[Thurbane]

You know, I thought for years that Mage Armor was an Evocation.

So, WotC logic:

Magical force shaped into armor? Well, obviously that's conjuration.
That same magic force shaped into a shield, however, is clearly abjuration.
Take that shield, flip it on it's side and allow it to carry stuff? Well, that just screams evocation, doesn't it.

[Darg]

So, WotC logic:

Magical force shaped into armor? Well, obviously that's conjuration.
That same magic force shaped into a shield, however, is clearly abjuration.
Take that shield, flip it on it's side and allow it to carry stuff? Well, that just screams evocation, doesn't it.

In 5e it's an abjuration spell. At least that is what baldur's gate 3 has told me. I think it's probably a holdover from older editions. Other than armor spells, there's choke, sepia snake sigil, decastave, and spiritual chariot.

[KillianHawkeye]

What, you guys have never conjured a magical orb of nonmagical force before? :smallbiggrin:

[noob]

What, you guys have never conjured a magical orb of nonmagical force before? :smallbiggrin:

Usually the orb is not magical: its conjuring is.
So I would magically conjure an orb of nonmagical force.