Collecting Beholder Opinions

[AvatarVecna]

Would you say that a beholder has a discernible head? Discuss. Explain.

[quindraco]

Would you say that a beholder has a discernible head? Discuss. Explain.

Of course it does, just like an octopus does. A Beholder has a head in the same way a human has a body.

[hamishspence]

I think Segev said it best:


Honestly? "A discernable head" in the eye of the beholder. Less jokingly, I mean that seriously: it's an "I know it if I see it" thing.

A classic beholder, like a vargouille, has a "discernable head" and no discernable torso. A quadrone - and indeed, most modrons - lack a discernable head because their whole body is a torso. The weird beholder-kin that has arms and legs lacks a discernable head because its eye and mouth are in its obvious torso.

By and large, I think I would argue that it is "all head" if it lacks limbs or its limbs sprout from the bottom without discernable hips or shoulders and it has a generally round shape, while it "lacks a head" if its limbs sprout from hips or shoulders and its "head parts" like eyes and mouths are embedded in a less-round more torso- or abdomen-like structure.

This is, again, highly subjective. "I know it when I see it." But a Beholder is clearly "all head," while a creature with a face in its chest "has no head."

[Greywander]

I'm going to say no, and likewise for creatures like modrons. No creature is truly "all head" or "all torso". In both cases, these creatures have a fused head and torso, not unlike a spider's cephelothorax: their body contains both their head-organs and torso-organs, and thus is really both yet neither.

I suppose it depends on what the specific question is. A creature who simply doesn't have a head is far different; a beholder still has a brain, eyes, etc., they're just in the same portion of their body as their stomach and liver and such. If you're trying to headshot a beholder, then I'd say it would be possible, although it might be trickier since you can't just shoot them anywhere, since not all of their body contains their squishy brains. If you're trying to kidneyshot a beholder, that would probably also work, assuming you can locate their kidneys. Can you decapitate a beholder? I'd say no to that, as their head and body are fused into a single segment, thus no neck to cut.

[Millstone85]

their body contains both their head-organs and torso-organs, and thus is really both yet neither.That's a good point.

But one thing I would say for sure is that the 5e beholder's skeleton is just a skull.

A death tyrant appears as a massive, naked skull, with a pinpoint of red light gleaming in its hollow eye socket. With its eyestalks rotted away, ten spectral eyes hover above the creature and glare in all directions.


https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/b/b6/245beholder5eundead.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200

[Lord Vukodlak]

Look if your wanting to vorpal sword a beholder it won’t work.

[loki_ragnarock]

Look if your wanting to vorpal sword a beholder it won’t work.

That's about right.

[hamishspence]

I'm going to say no, and likewise for creatures like modrons. No creature is truly "all head" or "all torso". In both cases, these creatures have a fused head and torso, not unlike a spider's cephelothorax: their body contains both their head-organs and torso-organs, and thus is really both yet neither.


'what magic items it's eligible to wear' may be a factor.

If it's eligible to wear all head-slot items, and ineligible to wear all body slots items, it's reasonable to say it's effectively missing a body, and vice versa for a creature with body slots but no head slots.


The same principles can apply to a creature that's not a beholder but is similar. A vargouille, a malaugrym, or a Tall Mouther, for example. The DM and the players look at it, and decide if it is "to all intents and purposes, body-less" or "to all-intents and purposes, head-less".

[Greywander]

But one thing I would say for sure is that the 5e beholder's skeleton is just a skull.
Are we sure about this, though? There's a lot of variety among beholders, and their dreams can transform their body. While it's logical to assume that a death tyrant is representative of what a beholder skeleton looks like, this isn't necessarily the case. I don't really see how this is biologically feasible, as there doesn't seem to be any room for organs (unless the skull cavity is split up, with a compartment for brains and a compartment for other organs, or some such). Then again, beholders are aberrations from the Far Realm, so maybe they don't need to obey the same laws of biology that we would expect. Perhaps they actually are just a head, and the rest of their body exists in some extra-dimensional space.

[hamishspence]

While it's logical to assume that a death tyrant is representative of what a beholder skeleton looks like, this isn't necessarily the case. I don't really see how this is biologically feasible, as there doesn't seem to be any room for organs (unless the skull cavity is split up, with a compartment for brains and a compartment for other organs, or some such.

There's organs slung under the skull cavity, in Lords of Madness's diagram. A beholder's stomach, for example is on the underside of its jaw.

[Millstone85]

Perhaps they actually are just a head, and the rest of their body exists in some extra-dimensional space.At the very least, I would describe their organs as functioning like bags of holding. :smallbiggrin:


There's organs slung under the skull cavity, in Lords of Madness's diagram. A beholder's stomach, for example is on the underside of its jaw.Is that the diagram in question? Wish I had the legend.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bd88db093a6320f071b1a50/1583385906589-JQ8AKY309Z757GMUWFVZ/image-asset.png?format=500w

[hamishspence]

That's the one.

1: sphincterlike muscle
2: esophagus
3: large, flat stomach
4: smaller tubes that are similar to intestines
5: large fan-shaped organ - this is the beholder's lung
6: strange, ovoid organ - this is the beholder's womb
7: brain

[Millstone85]

That's the one.Okay, and thank you for the legend.

[Kane0]

Can i get a look at a beholder skeleton? I think that might be better than organs.

If its a big skull then I'd say it's all head, if its more like a ribcage then I'd say it's all body

[hamishspence]

Can i get a look at a beholder skeleton? I think that might be better than organs.



You can - see the Death Tyrant pic further up the thread.

[Millstone85]

As Greywander said, there is a possibility that the death tyrant, being the product of a beholder's dream about undeath, might be a warped view of the creature's original skeleton.

Or I could imagine that to be indeed a beholder's skull, but that there were other bones the death tyrant just didn't feel the need to carry around. More like a demilich than a lich.

But I think it is simpler to just accept the death tyrant as a beholder minus the meat.

[Kane0]

You can - see the Death Tyrant pic further up the thread.

...huh, didnt load for me.

Anyways, its described as a skull so I lean towards all head rather than all body

[hamishspence]

...huh, didnt load for me.

How about this one?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/b/b6/245beholder5eundead.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171011164609

[Greywander]

6: strange, ovoid organ - this is the beholder's womb
I'm sorry, it's what?

I thought beholders reproduce by dreaming up another beholder, which just appears next to them. If they really wanted halfbreeds, the dream method could still work; just dream up, say, a beholder/dragon cross, and a beholder/dragon would appear.

That diagram is pretty neat, though. Good to see some thought was actually put into this, even though it would have been easy to handwave it as some weird alien being from the Far Realm.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm sorry, it's what?

I thought beholders reproduce by dreaming up another beholder, which just appears next to them. If they really wanted halfbreeds, the dream method could still work; just dream up, say, a beholder/dragon cross, and a beholder/dragon would appear.

That diagram is pretty neat, though. Good to see some thought was actually put into this, even though it would have been easy to handwave it as some weird alien being from the Far Realm.

Yeah, no, that's the 5E reproduction. Let's just say that in earlier editions it was considerably... messier.

[Mitchellnotes]

I always thought they worked like a langolier and what they ate just dumped into another dimension.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ah, here, Tzardok summarized it best on the 3.5E sub-forum:

Each beholder is born with an organ down in their throat that looks like it's made of bubbles. Once in its life the beholder secludes itself and the organ swills until it hangs from their maw. Then it bites it off. Some time later from each of the bubbles hatches a new beholder. The parent eats the ones whose appearance diverged too much and drives off the rest.

EDIT: Say what you will about splatbook bloat in 3.5E (there absolutely was), but we got some really good products out of it. Lords of Madness was one of them.

[Millstone85]

Yeah, no, that's the 5E reproduction. Let's just say that in earlier editions it was considerably... messier.
Ah, here, Tzardok summarized it best on the 3.5E sub-forumThat's certainly messy, but I think Volo's version is weirder. It also makes you ponder what type of dream yields what sort of beholder or beholder-kin.

Of course, nothing stops beholders from having multiple modes of reproduction. Some might be egglayers. Some might be tulpamancers. Some might be both at once, or something else.

And I really like to think about the place of the gibbering orb in that context:

Is it the result of a mouther eating a beholder's corpse or eggs?
Is it from a beholder's dream after hearing a mouther?
Is it what happens when a beholder fails to bite off its "womb"?
Is it a beholder who got stuck in a false awakening loop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening#Loop)?
Is it all of the above, and the original creature in the Far Realm?

[Wizard_Lizard]

How about this one?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/b/b6/245beholder5eundead.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171011164609

I don't want to admit it but that jumpscared me...

[Segev]

Is it what happens when a beholder fails to bite off its "womb"?

The boring but biologically-likely answer is: it starves to death since it can't get anything else into its mouth.

More exciting answers include "Conjoined beholder."

[Imbalance]

I would say that a beholder discernably is a head at first glance, but since it is described as possessing a spheroid body one would have to dissect to be sure. From descriptions, it's probably safe to say that there could never be an anatomical model that would apply to all specimens beyond basic shape and eye count. I don't feel that we can be certain that a death tyrant is or has a skull, or if the death-obsessed beholder that imagined itself so willed bone into existence where it had none in life (it's important to note that a death tyrant is not classified as an aberration).

Decapitation? No, there is naught to sever a head from (though feel free to chop off 1d10 eye stalks with a successful Vorpal crit)
Two-headed template? Who cares? It's a template - fudge it until it makes sense for the monster you want.
Conjoined beholders? Epically yes
Beholderplex (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24234170&postcount=7)? https://live.staticflickr.com/7838/40176563423_b590bf7f18_c.jpg

[Asmotherion]

Well, I believe it's organs are all in it's head, making it effectivelly both it's head and body. It's also likely they absorb nutrients directly to their brain and puke out the non-nutrious stuff or excrude it through sweat. After all, it's a very complex "alien" brain, we have no indication it would work in the same way as our brains. The brain could include a stomach for all we know.

Closer examination of the mouth, including the skull (from death tyrants), indicates the existance of a throat, meaning they likelly swallow their food. This could mean the stomach is located directly behind the mouth.