Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting with Monkey Grip: Wall of Blades for Fighters

[ClericLurker]

Hey everyone!

Like the title says: two feats, one from Complete Adventurer, the other from Complete Warrior. One lets you wield a one-handed weapon in your off-hand while using the light weapon penalties for TWF, the other lets you wield a bigger size category weapon in as the same number of handedness for -2 attack. Now, Monkey Grip has been kind of a joke, because, for wielding a greatsword, increasing a size category gives you 1d6 to damage, which is numerically worse than trading the same -2 to-hit for +4 damage with Power Attack. Or, for that matter, getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade. If you already have EWP: Fullblade, then it does becomes superior, by a whopping .5 average damage (yay...). But...

A TWF will usually be fighting with two kukris (to avoid buying more than one each of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization). Assume PC is Medium size Bump them up to sabers w/OTWF (and swap out the Weapon Focus line feats), and you get +1 to damage with each (d4 => d6), worse than Weapon Specialization. Increase size of weapons to large and you now have 1d8, same calculation, but you're getting whacked for -2 attack on top of that.

But, (it finally starts to make sense!) if you have a caster drop Enlarge Person on you, you go up another size category and now have base damage dice of 2d6, for +2.5. Which, yes, is still worse than Weapon Specialization (1d6 (post Enlarge Person) to 2d6, average of +4.5, costing two feats and -2 attack. However! It is better than Power Attack, as you only get +1 per -1 when TWFing. (Which itself is why OTWF is any good; it lets you PA while TWFing, albeit at a terrible exchange rate)

Bottom line, this combo doesn't seem overpowered to me (actually, it seems sub-optimal, especially given that TWFs usually are counting on per-hit damage like Sneak Attack or weapon properties, or, for the matter, because TWF costs twice the dough in magic weapons vs THF), and produces some hilarious mental images, what with the two giant-sized swords, so I don't know why it shouldn't be allowed. But I wanted to know if some more experinced munchkin can spot something I've missed, and to share this with you all.

[pabelfly]

I don't know about not allowed, but usually TWF builds are pretty strapped for feats that it's hard to fit it in, not to mention that the feat combo isn't doing a great deal extra damage. Like, a large dagger instead of a medium is a d6 instead of a d4. Or, you're getting larger damage dice but your accuracy tanks badly because you're not using light weapons any more.

[Anthrowhale]

Using feats for size-related damage is usually a small-ball game when feats could be used for more important things.

For size-related damage, using Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) to amplify the scale is good. This combines well with a Maul (Complete Warrior) made out of a precious metal to create a heavy weapon (Magic of Faerun) giving you 12d6 damage with Exotic Weapon [Heavy Maul].

[Maat Mons]

Edit: Ninja-ed.



I feel that the major benefit of using a one-handed weapon in your off hand is that it actually benefits from Power Attack.

Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon gives you +2 damage per -1 attack. Power Attacking with 2 light weapons give you +0/+0 damage per -1 attack. Power Attacking with a one-handed weapon and a light weapon gives you +1/+0 damage per -1 attack. And, finally, power Attacking with 2 one-handed weapons gives you +1/+1 damage per -1 attack.

So, as you can see, 2 one-handed weapons is the only TWF option that gives the same Power Attack returns as a two-handed weapon.



If you want to do a two-weapon-fighter, I think the best weapons are 2 mauls. You start out with 1d10/1d10 (or 1d8/1d8 if you're small). But with a high-enough level casting of Greater Mighty Wallop on each, that goes up to 6d8/6d8 (regardless of size).

Or you could instead use warmaces, and wind up at 8d6/8d6. But that's only +1 average damage per weapon. And you'd be taking -2 AC. But maybe you're dumping AC anyway with Shock Trooper. So it might not matter.

Strongarm Bracers are a great way to wield larger weapons without taking any penalties. For a medium creature wearing Strongarm Bracers, you'd only need a 12th-level casting of Greater Mighty Wallop to get your damage up to colossal.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Rather than use Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, I recommend going for the Diopsid race (Dragon Compendium). This lets you dual-wield two-handed weapons; with TWF, this gives you a -4 penalty with each hand, but now you can fully benefit from Power Attack and size increases become more beneficial to you.

If you want to get cheesy, combine this with a Greater Titan Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm). In addition to giving you Power Attack as a bonus feat, that'll let you dual-wield Gargantuan two-handed hammers at 12th level (ECL 13). At that point, it's probably worth it to grab Monkey Grip; Gargantuan to Colossal is definitely worth an additional -2 to-hit.

[RNightstalker]

If you are looking for something outside the box, Baldur's Gate 2 has a feat called Hero's Arm, that let's you wield two-handed weapons in one hand. It essentially requires +15 BAB, but it is 3rd edition rules and has that nice WotC stamp on the game.

[the_tick_rules]

there is also strongarm bracers from magic item compendium. you treat weapons as if you were one size larger. greatsword in each hand baby

[ClericLurker]

Wow, thanks for the response! This wasn't something that came up in-game, just an amusing, flavorful, and not entirely underpowered idea for a melee build. The Strongarm Bracers definitely make this build better, assuming that they stack with Monkey Grip (the description calls out Goliaths for not stacking, but...). The item seems priced about right, at 6k, compared to weapon crystal of energy assault (3k per for a d6, but you need one for each weapon, making the cost equivalent; the strongarm Bracers are actually somewhat overpriced for THFing, unless you've got the crystal already and are trying to stack them)

Now I kind want to stat up a Drizzt clone who feels the need to compensate for his unoriginality with humongous blades...

[Darg]

Using feats for size-related damage is usually a small-ball game when feats could be used for more important things.

For size-related damage, using Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) to amplify the scale is good. This combines well with a Maul (Complete Warrior) made out of a precious metal to create a heavy weapon (Magic of Faerun) giving you 12d6 damage with Exotic Weapon [Heavy Maul].

Where does the 12d6&8 come from. I can't find a official size table that has them.


If you are looking for something outside the box, Baldur's Gate 2 has a feat called Hero's Arm, that let's you wield two-handed weapons in one hand. It essentially requires +15 BAB, but it is 3rd edition rules and has that nice WotC stamp on the game.

Wrong game. BG2 is based on AD&D so it doesn't have feats. Icewind Dale 2 is 3rd so it might have the feat as I haven't played it.

[Anthrowhale]

Where does the 12d6&8 come from.
You get 6d8 from a colossal maul. Heavy weapons change each d8 into 2d6.

[Thurbane]

I know stat blocks aren't the greatest citations, but Thaden Felstorm (Exemplars of Evil p.115) uses Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF to wield a large bastard sword in each hand.

https://i.imgur.com/9XbJNPr.jpg

[loky1109]

Rather than use Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, I recommend going for the Diopsid race (Dragon Compendium). This lets you dual-wield two-handed weapons; with TWF, this gives you a -4 penalty with each hand, but now you can fully benefit from Power Attack and size increases become more beneficial to you.

Exotic Weapon Master - Exotic weapon stunt (Uncanny Blow) looks very suitable. Plus armbands of might.

[Bonneduce]

Pardon me, but how exactly does using oversized weapons equal the Wall of Blades counter/maneuver?

[RNightstalker]

Wrong game. BG2 is based on AD&D so it doesn't have feats. Icewind Dale 2 is 3rd so it might have the feat as I haven't played it.

I may be wrong from time to time, but I vividly remember running around with a human barbarian dual wielding keen greatswords with the Improved Critical feat in Baldur's Gate 2 (the one you could unlock Drizz't & Artemis to play) on the PS2.

[Darg]

You get 6d8 from a colossal maul. Heavy weapons change each d8 into 2d6.

As far as I can tell, 3.0 didn't have the size increasing rules that 3.5 has. Such as there being no such thing as a small longsword. Enlarging a character didn't increase the damage die of the weapon either. If the rules were properly converted, I would say that it increases the weapon damage die by one size. Using the rules quirks of applying rules made for 3.0 to 3.5 is extremely cheesy. It's like using an unconverted mantis leap to make two charges in a round that don't follow any of the new charging rules while getting the benefit of spring attack without spring attack (without the AoO protection of course).


I may be wrong from time to time, but I vividly remember running around with a human barbarian dual wielding keen greatswords with the Improved Critical feat in Baldur's Gate 2 (the one you could unlock Drizz't & Artemis to play) on the PS2.

Ah, that's Baldur's Gate dark alliance 2 (still love the game, wish they still made games like these). Baldur's Gate 2 is a PC isometric real time turn based game where you play as the Bhaalspawn. If you haven't played BG or BG2 I highly recommend it (up to 6 players and Beamdog released enhanced versions on GOG, steam, Android, and IOS).

[Anthrowhale]

As far as I can tell, 3.0 didn't have the size increasing rules that 3.5 has. Such as there being no such thing as a small longsword. Enlarging a character didn't increase the damage die of the weapon either. If the rules were properly converted, I would say that it increases the weapon damage die by one size. Using the rules quirks of applying rules made for 3.0 to 3.5 is extremely cheesy. It's like using an unconverted mantis leap to make two charges in a round that don't follow any of the new charging rules while getting the benefit of spring attack without spring attack (without the AoO protection of course).

Interesting---I hadn't seen the 3.0 weapon advancement tables which do match heavy weapons as being equivalent to a size increase. This suggests that a DM could go multiple ways. On one hand, the heavy weapons are not a size increase and so it seems reasonable to expect a colossal heavy maul to do more damage than a colossal maul, with the only rule for that being the heavy weapons rule. On the other hand, similar damage increases were altered in the transition to 3.5, so it's easy to imagine DM going multiple ways.

[ClericLurker]

Pardon me, but how exactly does using oversized weapons equal the Wall of Blades counter/maneuver?
My goof, I meant Blade Barrier. And it doesn't, mechanically, but it does on the "oh my that's a lot of big swords" fluff sense. Oh, it does...

[the_tick_rules]

The Strongarm Bracers definitely make this build better, assuming that they stack with Monkey Grip (the description calls out Goliaths for not stacking, but...).


I'm pretty sure they don't stack. strongarm bracers are better in the sense they do not use a -2 penalty but it does take up a magic item slot. that is unless you can swing the multi-enchanting.

[Darg]

I'm pretty sure they don't stack. strongarm bracers are better in the sense they do not use a -2 penalty but it does take up a magic item slot. that is unless you can swing the multi-enchanting.

Monkey grip allows you to use a weapon one size larger without changing the effort to use it such as using a large longsword one-handed or greatsword two handed when medium sized. It does not allow you to use a huge longsword in two hands as medium size. Strongarm bracers allows you to wield weapons as if you were one size larger. Strongarm bracers increases you to large size which does combo with monkey grip to let you use a huge longsword one handed or huge greatsword two handed.

Monkey grip is not an intuitive feat. For that matter, neither is Wield over-sized weapon. At first you think that it would let you use a large greatclub one handed, but then it gives the example of a large greatclub two-handed, which of course is possible, and a medium short sword as a small light weapon. So it says you can do one thing, but the examples imply another.

[Anthrowhale]

Monkey grip allows you to use a weapon one size larger without changing the effort to use it such as using a large longsword one-handed or greatsword two handed when medium sized. It does not allow you to use a huge longsword in two hands as medium size. Strongarm bracers allows you to wield weapons as if you were one size larger. Strongarm bracers increases you to large size which does combo with monkey grip to let you use a huge longsword one handed or huge greatsword two handed.

Monkey grip is not an intuitive feat.

Hmm, so Monkey Grip + Strongarm Bracers + Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Heavy Fullblade] = 8d6? Or 6d8 if you want the heavy damage increase to work as per sizing rules.

[Darg]

Hmm, so Monkey Grip + Strongarm Bracers + Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Heavy Fullblade] = 8d6? Or 6d8 if you want the heavy damage increase to work as per sizing rules.

I would say yes.

[Bonneduce]

Pardon me, but how exactly does using oversized weapons equal the Wall of Blades counter/maneuver?

Um, no feedback/answer to this? I was hella excited about potentially countering one attack per round, like the manuever/counter would

[Darg]

Um, no feedback/answer to this? I was hella excited about potentially countering one attack per round, like the manuever/counter would

Grappling Block from Oriental Adventures can do that. It has a steep feat cost though and it's an opposed disarm check so not useful against natural weapons. Though, as you don't automatically fail a disarm attempt an argument could be made that you could knock the limb to the ground even if it isn't separated from the body and the only benefit would be preventing the attack. It requires being unarmed or use of a sai/jitte.

[ClericLurker]

Um, no feedback/answer to this? I was hella excited about potentially countering one attack per round, like the manuever/counter would
Ah...

My goof, I meant Blade Barrier. And it doesn't, mechanically, but it does on the "oh my that's a lot of big swords" fluff sense. Oh, it does...
Asked and answered. Sorry for the fakeout, I was speaking in terms of fluff. I hope you'd agree that two greatsword-sized blades begins to constitute a "wall"! ;)

[Bonneduce]

Ah...

Asked and answered. Sorry for the fakeout, I was speaking in terms of fluff. I hope you'd agree that two greatsword-sized blades begins to constitute a "wall"! ;)

No worries, and agreed. The visual is certainly cool(tm), as mentioned, Grappling Block can sort of do what I thought. Thanks all around, good people of GiantITP

[fallensavior]

Monkey Grip does not work with offhand weapons or double weapons.

[ClericLurker]

Monkey Grip does not work with offhand weapons or double weapons.
...darn it, you're right. I'm blind, evidently.

Given that TWF is generally worse than THF, I think WotC chose a very poor time to be "balanced".

[Darg]

...darn it, you're right. I'm blind, evidently.

Given that TWF is generally worse than THF, I think WotC chose a very poor time to be "balanced".

Well, Wield Oversized weapon at level 21 would allow you to wield a large greatsword as a medium one handed weapon. Personally, I would get rid of the weapon type and hand restriction and remove the attack penalty. It honestly doesn't balance the feat, nor does it match the power level of other feats being used for damage (other than the coolness). With a d8 weapon one size increase gives 4.5 while a d6 gives 3.5 (if it gets to the point of increasing the number of die vs size).

Enlarge + monkey grip gives a medium character a 4d6 greasword or a 3d8 bastard sword. Add in strongarm bracers for 6d6 and 4d8 and you are still not getting much more than a power attack with a 2h weapon. The only real benefit comes from the fact that power attack doesn't work as well when not using a weapon two-handed. Monkey grip is basically a 2h power attack while wielding the weapon single handed. Though, oversized two weapon fighting sort of gives you access to a full power attack bonus (just split between 2 weapons). Getting that exotic weapon master level is imperative for the 2x power attack for exotic 1h weapons like a TWF bastard sword combo.

[Thurbane]

Monkey Grip does not work with offhand weapons or double weapons.

And yet another stat block where the devs didn't read the relevant rules. :smallsigh:


I know stat blocks aren't the greatest citations, but Thaden Felstorm (Exemplars of Evil p.115) uses Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF to wield a large bastard sword in each hand.

https://i.imgur.com/9XbJNPr.jpg

[Darg]

And yet another stat block where the devs didn't read the relevant rules. :smallsigh:




To be quite frank, the feat sucks even worse if you include those rules. As written, if you don't use some logical sense, it literally tells you that you lose the ability to wield a large light weapon in your off-hand. That's quite silly. The feat itself is quite silly and quite honestly I would say as written it is effectively worse than the weapon focus feat. We all know how disappointing and minimal that one is. I mean, you really have to ask what the designer of the feat was thinking making the feat that bad.

Edit: I don't think they actually knew what the feats actually did and made them up as they went. Able Learner does not do what is described on page 25, nor is it even in CM. Divine vigor lasts a number of minutes equal to your cha mod.