PDA

View Full Version : Ways to guarantee Sneak Attack



Skjaldbakka
2007-11-15, 01:10 AM
I am trying to build a rogue that can always get sneak attack damage, against any target, in a gestalt 18th level build.

What I have so far:

Cleric --> Black Flame Zealot on one side for Grave Strike, and Anti-Magic Field (to deal with heavy fort armor)

Rogue --> Assassin on the other side for uber Death Attack DC

Intelligent Magic Item that can cast Vine Strike and (the arcane version that hits contructs)

What I am missing:

A way to detect armor with heavy fort on sight
A way to SA oozes (or any creature type I may have forgotten)
A way to beat blindsight and tremorsense

leperkhaun
2007-11-15, 01:16 AM
hmmm, i think the feat Dark Stalker lets you get around blindesense......the fly spell for tremorsense (which at that level winged boots, those wings that let you fly at will for 50k, or UMD).

As to the heavy fort armor.........maybe go invis, take a shot with an arrow and see what happens before you get close.

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 01:18 AM
Brilliant Energy weapons should negate fortification.

Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 01:20 AM
Brilliant Energy weapons should negate fortification.

That's brilliant!

...okay... I'll sit down now...

Goumindong
2007-11-15, 01:24 AM
Dont worry about defeating blindsense and tremor sense. Just worry about guarenteeing flanking.

MCerberus
2007-11-15, 01:25 AM
When you can't flank improved feint if you decide it's REALLY important.

And you can't sneak attack anything immune to critical hits because they have no vitals. An ooze is all around an ooze there's no ooze spine to sever. You also can't stab a Golem in the spleen.

Fishy
2007-11-15, 01:25 AM
You're also missing a way to beat Uncanny Dodge. About the only way around that is Impromptu Sneak Attack, and most DMs aren't going to allow Arcane Trickster in a gestalt game. :/

I like the Distract Assailant spell from Complete Adventurer- though it'd probably be a pain to shoehorn it into that build. Means you don't have to worry about dealing with their senses, though.

Curmudgeon
2007-11-15, 01:30 AM
Brilliant Energy weapons should negate fortification. No, they shouldn't; there's nothing in the description of Brilliant Energy that specifies that it has any impact on Fortification.

Wear your Gemstone of Heavy Fortification with confidence; Brilliant Energy won't affect your immunity to critical hits and sneak attack.

leperkhaun
2007-11-15, 01:32 AM
hmmm might add, the invisible blade PrC though kinda weak does have one huge benifit to anyone who sneak attacks....they can feint as a free action.

Also the all important grease spell, anything with less than 5 ranks in balance is considered flat-footed, even if they make their reflex save.

something to think about.

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 01:34 AM
No, they shouldn't; there's nothing in the description of Brilliant Energy that specifies that it has any impact on Fortification.

Wear your Gemstone of Heavy Fortification with confidence; Brilliant Energy won't affect your immunity to critical hits and sneak attack.

I beleive that they circumvent Armor of Fortification specifically. I beleive you are right about the gemstone, but I never saw anyone waste a magic item slot on an armor property.

Thinker
2007-11-15, 01:39 AM
I beleive that they circumvent Armor of Fortification specifically. I beleive you are right about the gemstone, but I never saw anyone waste a magic item slot on an armor property.

It doesn't mention Fortification in its entry at all:


Brilliant Energy

A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus.

Soups
2007-11-15, 01:41 AM
It's kinda frowned upon, because the book was never made 3.5, it's 3.0

The Rogue Blade from Savage Species. +2 rapier. When ever you successfully hit, the creature is treated as having been sneak attacked(assuming it can be), due to the fact that this magic weapon is treated as having blink, with out the miss chance. In the book it says it can be applied to any weapon, except the rogue blade is the only one that ignores the miss chance. Basically, its like the blade passes through armor. But it doesn't negate AC. So with this thing, just throw a rogue into heavy armor, and suddenly you hav a very ungangly looking fighter, with crappy attack bonus.

Thats all I can really contribute to this conversation.

Jasdoif
2007-11-15, 01:45 AM
It doesn't mention Fortification in its entry at all:Indeed.

And even if it did, it specifically mentions that such weapons can't deal damage to undead or constructs. You would still have to find a way to get sneak attack vs undead/constructs wearing heavy fortification armor.

Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 01:49 AM
Indeed.

And even if it did, it specifically mentions that such weapons can't deal damage to undead or constructs. You would still have to find a way to get sneak attack vs undead/constructs wearing heavy fortification armor.

Good thing you'll never see one of those, since it's rather redundant for them do do so.

Stam
2007-11-15, 01:50 AM
Uncanny Dodge is not a sneak-attack-bulletproof-vest like it might seem.

It shouldn't work against Feints, the MT similar trick, or anything partially immobilizing or deliberately misleading the target.

RTGoodman
2007-11-15, 01:55 AM
There are Augment Crystals in Magic Item Compendium that you can strap to weapons to give you the ability to sneak attack plants/constructs/undead, but I'm not sure how much they cost or how many you can attach.

Also, I recall someone mentioning a PrC from Miniatures Handbook (maybe?) called Skullclan Hunter that lets you sneak attack undead all the time (or something like that). It might be worth checking out, assuming it's not one of the dual-progression type classes (like mystic theurge or whatever).

Also, doesn't greater blink or something like that grant you concealment or whatever it is you need for sneak attack? Because I think you could find a way to get it as a Cleric and DMM Persist it or something, and if not you could try to get a Ring of it. If you're playing that high of a level, and it's gestalt, then it's probably not too cheesy to get something like that (as long as you pay the money).

Jasdoif
2007-11-15, 01:57 AM
Good thing you'll never see one of those, since it's rather redundant for them do do so.Well, the stated goal here is "sneak attack against any target". And I understand there's now spells and items that allow sneak attack against undead/constructs, those concerned about that may try secondary protection against sneak attacks.

Fishy
2007-11-15, 02:01 AM
Hmm. I was about to recommend Distracting Attack variant Ranger, but I don't think that works the way I want it to. I don't remember if the blank-strike spells are on the Ranger list, but a Ranger//Assassin would have both arcane and divine spells to fuel the Razing Strike feat, could take Favored Enemy: Ooze, gets full BAB and the feats to get lots of attacks in one turn, but unfortunately can't both Distract and Sneak Attack with two shots in rapid succession.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-15, 02:01 AM
So . . . no spell that allows sneak attack on oozes anywhere?


Razing Strike? Is that the sneak-attack against constructs spell?

brian c
2007-11-15, 02:05 AM
It doesn't mention Fortification in its entry at all:


Brilliant Energy

A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus.


Emphasis mine. Technically, this only refers to the enhancement bonus (ie Brilliant Energy vs. +1 Armor bypasses the regular AC of the armor and the +1) but it could be interpreted as meaning that any magical armor property does not function when attacked by a Brilliant Energy weapon, and I think this interpretation makes a lot of sense. For example, the armor property Invulnerability gives DR 5/magic; while a Brilliant Energy weapon is automatically magic and thus bypasses this, it shouldn't even be an issue since the weapon goes right through the armor.

By RAW, Brilliant Energy cannot crit/SA if they're wearing Heavy Fort armor.

By my opinion of the RAI, it can.

RTGoodman
2007-11-15, 02:05 AM
So . . . no spell that allows sneak attack on oozes anywhere?

Well, indirectly (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsAtoB.html#baleful-polymorph). You can sneak attack monkeys, so this should work.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-15, 02:07 AM
By RAW, Brilliant Energy cannot crit/SA if they're wearing Heavy Fort armor.

By my opinion of the RAI, it can.

I can probably convince the DM. However, I can always Quicken AMF so that I can death attack people in fortified armor. I just wish there was a way to detect fortified armor.

Fishy
2007-11-15, 02:14 AM
Spell-storing weapon with Identify?

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 02:14 AM
This is where my confusion comes from- is fortification actually a magic ability or is a feature of the physical armor? Because if it is extra chains and things (like the locked gauntlet) then whoosh, right through to the soft fleshy insides. Assuming it is a magical effect, then AMF might make for some delicious Knife-on-Spleen action.

On a side note, Assassins have a spell called Sniper's Eye (IIRC) that lets them double the range of their sneak attack.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-15, 02:17 AM
Well there really is no ambiguity there.


Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, limited wish or miracle; Price varies (see above).


Oooh, abjuration school. 3 rounds to ID a spell effect, 3 rnds to death attack. So if they have strong abjuration on their armor, Quicken AMF + death attack. Just to be on the safe side.

I'll need to make sure I have the spellcraft to ID the aura on a 1.

Quietus
2007-11-15, 02:18 AM
Spell-storing weapon with Identify?

Item of continuous Analyze Dweomer, or whatever that high-level identify spell is?

the_tick_rules
2007-11-15, 02:22 AM
be invisible when you strike. can't catch you if they can't see you.

Armads
2007-11-15, 02:25 AM
Penetrating Strike. Lets you sneak attack stuff that is immune to sneak attacks (constructs, oozes, undead, plants, swarms - assuming you have a swarmfighting weapon), but at half sneak attack damage.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-15, 02:35 AM
Would that allow you to use a Death Attack?

Hawriel
2007-11-15, 03:03 AM
You're also missing a way to beat Uncanny Dodge. About the only way around that is Impromptu Sneak Attack, and most DMs aren't going to allow Arcane Trickster in a gestalt game. :/

I like the Distract Assailant spell from Complete Adventurer- though it'd probably be a pain to shoehorn it into that build. Means you don't have to worry about dealing with their senses, though.

uncanny dodge does not make you immune to sneak attack. It lets you keep your dex bonus to AC even though your flat footed. If you insist on thinking it does it also states in the rules for uncanny dodge that a rogue 4 levels higher than the character with uncanny dodge is not effected by uncanny dodge. hmm unless it said that under improved uncanny dodge.

Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 03:10 AM
Yes, but rogues can't sneak attack flatfooted opponents. They can only sneak attack opponents who are denied their Dex to AC. Flatfooted is just the prime example.

Raewyn
2007-11-15, 03:53 AM
Deathstrike Bracers
When activated, deathstrike bracers allow you to use melee weapons to deal extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks to constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead, as if they were not immune to such extra damage. You must still roll a critical threat and confirm it as a critical hit or qualify to deliver sneak attack damage to gain any benefit from the bracers. This effect does not allow you to overcome any other immunity or resistance to extra damage from sneak attacks or critical hits (such as the fortification armor property. This effect lasts for one round. This ability functions three times per day.

These would allow you to sneak attack oozes, but they only work 3/day. :smallsigh:

[source: Magic Item Compendium, page 93]

kpenguin
2007-11-15, 04:01 AM
A way around uncanny dodge would be to find a way to paralyze or otherwise render helpless your opponent. Uncanny dodge doesn't prevent the loss of your dex bonus then.

Of course, if they're paralyzed, they're boned already, but...

WorthingSon
2007-11-15, 08:48 AM
Also, to help with flanking, you might wanna try Dvati. If there are two of you then it's a lot easier to flank. Plus, you get special bonuses to flanking with your Dvati twin. Also, hide/invisibility/darkness or whatever to confuse you oponents. If they never see the two of you at the same time then you can have each body attack one at a time and they will think you have 6 atacks and can teleport! (Unless they make the appropriate knowlage check to figure out that you are a Dvati).

Keld Denar
2007-11-15, 10:28 AM
Heavy Fort (all Forts actually) say that it provides a magical force that protects your vitals. No extra chain or anything non-magical about it. Brilliant Energy would do nothing to circumvent this. The only way to alter this would be to suppress the armor. The only 2 ways I can think of to do this is via AMF as you mentioned, or by a targeted dispel on the person's armor. Unfortunately, that will give away your presence, and possibly your positioning (unless you are using greater invis). The (greater) Dispelling Weapon upgrade from MIC might help, but I think it might be a bit of a stretch to have it dispel a piece of gear.

To detect it, (Greater) Arcane Sight gives you all 3 rounds of Detect Magic at a glance. If you detect abjuration on armor or a shield, it would probably be a safe bet that its fortification. It might not be, but better dispel first, ask questions later.

Weapon crystals would probably be among the most reliable ways to get past the bad types. Truedeath allows sneak attacking of undead, with the the added perk of ignoring incorporial miss chance. Demolition allows the sneak attacking of constructs, and also allows you to bypass their DR. I don't remember off the top of my head if there is an oozy or plant crystal. Crystals could probably be swapped in during your 3 round study period, if need be. Unfortunately, this gets kind of pricy, because you have to spend 10,000 for the greater crystal of each type of creature you want to sneak attack, above and beyond the price of the +2 weapon (not +2 equivilant, +2 enhancement)

If you took Ranger Levels and picked favored enemy plant and favored enemy ooze, and have the Swift Ambusher feat (CS), you would be able to apply all precision based damage to your favored enemies (plant and ooze).

Hope some of these suggestions help. GL and GG.

mikeejimbo
2007-11-15, 10:43 AM
I can't believe no one mentioned Golem Strike, specifically. Is that the spell the OP was talking about that lets you sneak attack constructs?

I forget where it is, but I'll look for it later today.

Holocron Coder
2007-11-15, 10:45 AM
Penetrating Strike. Lets you sneak attack stuff that is immune to sneak attacks (constructs, oozes, undead, plants, swarms - assuming you have a swarmfighting weapon), but at half sneak attack damage.

As an addition: it also only counts when the target is flatfooted, not flanked, I believe... or the other way around.

As for allowing Death Attack, it doesn't say so explicitly.

Bigtuna
2007-11-15, 10:45 AM
Grease! Find a way to cast grease as a swift action. Now your enemy is balancing - so he is denied his dex to AC - Sneak away! (unless he chooses to fall - but then you get AoO when he tries to get up)
This way you don't have to wait for a flanking partner, be inv.

Douglas
2007-11-15, 10:48 AM
There's a feat in PHB2 that lets you count as being in any one square you threaten in addition to your own for flanking purposes. Combine this with a spiked chain and select the square on the opposite side of your opponent. You are now flanking the enemy all by yourself. You still need to bypass crit immunities, but this automatically qualifies you for sneak attack against anything that can be sneak attacked and doesn't have Improved Uncanny Dodge.

If you don't mind being extremely cheesy, take either the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat from Complete Adventurer or one level of Archmage and the Mastery of Shaping High Arcana so you can make an Antimagic Donut that doesn't affect you.

Keld Denar
2007-11-15, 10:58 AM
I can't believe no one mentioned Golem Strike, specifically. Is that the spell the OP was talking about that lets you sneak attack constructs?

I forget where it is, but I'll look for it later today.

Complete Arcane.

Completely avoided via use of a Greater Demolitions weapon crystal. Crystal isn't limited to casts/day and has the added benefit of bypassing DR and adding an extra 1d6 of untyped damage. Move action to apply, so in a round, you could draw a crystal from a HHH, and then attach, and still move 5'. Next round 3 rounds, squint funny at a golem, then go for they eyes, Boo.

Ryuuk
2007-11-15, 11:23 AM
How valuable would the Acrobatic Backstab Skill Trick be? I don't have Complete Scoundrel, but the description on the excerpt over at wizards says it lets you treat a foe as flatfooted if you tumble through them. Does it have any limitations not mentioned on the excerpt?

WorthingSon
2007-11-15, 11:35 AM
There's a feat in PHB2 that lets you count as being in any one square you threaten in addition to your own for flanking purposes. Combine this with a spiked chain and select the square on the opposite side of your opponent. You are now flanking the enemy all by yourself. You still need to bypass crit immunities, but this automatically qualifies you for sneak attack against anything that can be sneak attacked and doesn't have Improved Uncanny Dodge.

You are thinking of Adaptable Flanker, and it does not work like that. You count as occupying any space you threaten for purposes of determining flanking. That is not an extra space, but simply changing where you count as being. So you could not flank with yourself, as you can only be on one side, even if it is counted as the opposite side as teh one you are actually on.

Person_Man
2007-11-15, 12:22 PM
2 levels of Skullclan Hunter (Miniatures Handbook) allows you to apply Sneak Attack vs. Undead on every attack automatically. The Truedeath Crystal from the Magic Item Compendium allows Sneak Attack to be applied under normal conditions against undead.

Golemstrike from the Spell Compendium allows you to Sneak Attack Constructs. But its a Swift Action first level Wizard spell that only lasts for one round. So you're better off with a Demolition Crystal from the Magic Item Compendium.

Vinestrike from the Spell Compendium allows you to Sneak Attack Plants. But its a Swift Action first level Druid/Ranger spell that only lasts for one round.

Lussmanj mentioned Swift Ambusher. I think he means Swift Hunter, which allows your Scout and Ranger levels to stack for Skirmish Damage, and allows your Skirmish Damage to apply to always apply to your Favored Enemies. It doesn't apply to Sneak Attack damage.

There is no way that I am aware of to get Sneak Attack to apply to Oozes or Elementals.

In terms of allowing Sneak Attack under any condition, I think your best bet is to ask your DM if you can buy a custom magic item.

I also have the sudden urge to create a homebrew PrC to fill this niche.

Ways to qualify for Sneak Attack include:


1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no
reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

6) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat to ignore your 20% miss chance.

7) Skill Tricks: Check out the Complete Scoundrel.

8) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

9) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

10) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

11) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

12) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock and let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

13) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But if you're an Invisble Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack.

14) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

I suggest that you simply Summon something and Flank with it. It's the easiest method.

Keld Denar
2007-11-15, 12:28 PM
Lussmanj mentioned Swift Ambusher. I think he means Swift Hunter, which allows your Scout and Ranger levels to stack for Skirmish Damage, and allows your Skirmish Damage to apply to always apply to your Favored Enemies. It doesn't apply to Sneak Attack damage.

I was under the impression that Swift Ambusher gave similar benefits to rogue/rangers that Swift Hunter gave to scout/rangers. I'm probably wrong, though. That's what I get for making suggestions AFB though. Stupid work...

Fax Celestis
2007-11-15, 12:29 PM
I was under the impression that Swift Ambusher gave similar benefits to rogue/rangers that Swift Hunter gave to scout/rangers. I'm probably wrong, though. That's what I get for making suggestions AFB though. Stupid work...

Swift Ambusher is Scout/Rogue, not Ranger/Rogue.

Jacob Orlove
2007-11-15, 12:38 PM
Uncanny Dodge is not a sneak-attack-bulletproof-vest like it might seem.

It shouldn't work against Feints, the MT similar trick, or anything partially immobilizing or deliberately misleading the target.
Right. Stunning, blinding, or having someone grapple the target will all make them lose Dex-to-AC against you, allowing Sneak Attack, even if they have Uncanny Dodge *and* Improved Uncanny Dodge. And those are just the most common conditions that'll do it.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-15, 12:39 PM
See also the wracking touch spell (CAdv/SC).

Keld Denar
2007-11-15, 12:41 PM
Swift Ambusher is Scout/Rogue, not Ranger/Rogue.

Doh x2

BTW, Fax, you changed you Av...No more Crab....this saddens me :(

Fax Celestis
2007-11-15, 12:45 PM
Doh x2

BTW, Fax, you changed you Av...No more Crab....this saddens me :(

Don't worry. The crab will have a new, hideous incarnation soon.

Chronos
2007-11-15, 02:37 PM
Don't worry. The crab will have a new, hideous incarnation soon.Oh, gods. What Damned Template have you slapped on it now?

Douglas
2007-11-15, 02:52 PM
You are thinking of Adaptable Flanker, and it does not work like that. You count as occupying any space you threaten for purposes of determining flanking. That is not an extra space, but simply changing where you count as being. So you could not flank with yourself, as you can only be on one side, even if it is counted as the opposite side as teh one you are actually on.
The feat specifically states "You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent." So yes, it is an additional square for flanking and with sufficient reach can be used to flank with yourself.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-15, 04:08 PM
You also can't stab a Golem in the spleen.

Both the rules and popular fiction and media tells you you're horribly wrong. You see heroes killing the big damn constructs by hitting their weak points or destroying some crucial gear or magical focus all the bloody time. Also, there's a level 1 swift action spell called Golemstrike which allows you to sneak attack golems. There's also items that do this. So, again, you're wrong on both fronts.

TimeWizard
2007-11-15, 04:30 PM
Golems don't have spleens. They do have weakpoints though, as Golem Strike points out.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-15, 04:32 PM
yes the greatest way to get SA damage the entire time (not for construtcts and undead have you) is having a ring of invisibilty, and as an assassin have deafness, that way you defeat blindsense.