Hexblade / Swords or Full Lore Bard?

[dayadhvam]

Apologies if there are existing threads on this very topic, but after spending some time searching I’ve been unable to find exactly what I’m looking for—guidance on whether I should go Hexblade 1 / Sword Bard X, or stick with straight Lore Bard without dipping.

I’m playing in a relatively low magic home brew campaign; party composition as follows:
- Paladin (don’t remember his oath)
- Barbarian (Totem)
- Fighter (Arcane Archer)
- Rogue (Swashbuckler)
- Rogue (Arcane Trickster)
- Bard (Lore) — me

We’ve just leveled to 5, and are allowed to make any character changes we want before being locked out of further revisions. We will probably play to level 10 or so, maybe 12 if we go extra long. My character is a half-elf and in an RP sense either choice could make sense (he’s of noble birth and spent much of his life at court, so he could be knowledgeable when it comes to lore but also particularly good with a sword as a matter of his upbringing).

I love the idea of a Hexblade 1 dip on a Sword Bard for medium armor, shields, CHA attacks and Warlock cantrips (Eldritch Blast and SCAG -blades) in a slightly more martial frame, but Lore Bard is also great with its expanded casting from Additional Magical Secrets. The composition of my party has me leaning just a little bit towards full Lore, since we have neither a dedicated healer (Cutting Words serves as our damage mitigation) nor any other full casters (so Fireball at level 6 will be very impactful). That being said, I can’t get over how cool Hexblade 1 / Sword Bard X sounds.

Any tips from the community? Thanks in advance!

[Gtdead]

With Paladin, Barb and Swashbuckler in the frontline, I don't think that there is any point in going melee Sword's Bard. I'd probably start as Hexblade 1 + Eldritch Adept for Agonizing and then go Lore Bard. I consider this a good dip because you will be such an obvious target that you are going to need the armor. EB is just the icing on the cake.

Edit: Just noticed you are Half Elf. Eldritch Adept still isn't bad to get at lvl 5, but perhaps you may consider a Cleric dip instead depending on how long the campaign is supposed to last? Arcana, Trickery, Order, Twilight and Life are all good.

[someguy]

With two rogues in the group dip order cleric and every spell is a sneak attack, plus you still get armor and shield.

[dayadhvam]

Hexblade 1 / Lore X is also an interesting option; I’ll ask my DM about Eldritch Adept and see what he says. Thanks for the input! Either way, I could divest myself of a bit of DEX and push CHA harder.


Edit: Just noticed you are Half Elf. Eldritch Adept still isn't bad to get at lvl 5, but perhaps you may consider a Cleric dip instead depending on how long the campaign is supposed to last? Arcana, Trickery, Order, Twilight and Life are all good.

Curious why my character being a Half Elf makes a Cleric dip spring to mind for you?

Edit:

With two rogues in the group dip order cleric and every spell is a sneak attack, plus you still get armor and shield.
An interesting suggestion to be sure, and one that seems quite effective from an optimization standpoint, but I’m somewhat less interested in a Cleric dip from an RP perspective (not to mention the last character I played was a Cleric and I wanted to switch things up).

[Gtdead]

Hexblade 1 / Lore X is also an interesting option; I’ll ask my DM about Eldritch Adept and see what he says. Thanks for the input! Either way, I could divest myself of a bit of DEX and push CHA harder.



Curious why my character being a Half Elf makes a Cleric dip spring to mind for you?


Because the opportunity cost of picking Eldritch Adept is higher now. The early levels are simple, fights are without much nuance, and Eldritch Adept will passively increase your damage output by a significant amount, ~50%ish, plus it will keep you at a distance. However at lvl 5 you have to deal with tactics, casters etc, so the chances you are going to spend your action blasting, especially in a party with 4 strikers, are decreasing dramatically, and perhaps another feat like telekinetic will give you more bang for your buck, which will give you some better action economy and allow you to do more with less.

Eldritch Adept remains a good long term investment because keeping your ranged damage on a good progression curve is always a good thing with a lot of tactical implications, but the timing is unfortunate, so you need to think about playstyle and party interaction a bit more.

Cleric offers support oriented options like Bless, so the party's dpr will increase, dramatically in some cases (Voice of Authority in combination with Bless, Command:Flee to trigger lots of AoOs), while not necessarily keeping your action busy for the whole duration of the fight.

[ff7hero]

Between the options you listed, I'd say Lore Bard.

However, I'd still advise taking your first level in something else. Dex is (imo) the weakest of the big 3 saves, and the other Bard profs are nothing to write home about.

Sorcerer means Con Saves, Shield, Absorb Elements and some extra Offensive/Utility Cantrips (I like Divine Soul for Guidance, Firebolt/Toll the Dead, Mold Earth and Shape Water plus Bless).

Fighter also offers Con Saves, weapon/armor/shield profs, Second Wind and a Fighting Style (likely either Defense or Blind Fighting).

Warlock gives Wis Saves, probably weapon/armor/shield profs, and Eldritch Blast+Hex, which should be a "good enough" single target DPS until you can grab Eldritch Adept.

Cleric gives Wis Saves, at least armor and shields, Guidance and a variety of fun subclasses. Peace would be my recommendation there. Win at Skills.

[RogueJK]

I love the idea of a Hexblade 1 dip on a Sword Bard for medium armor, shields, CHA attacks and Warlock cantrips (Eldritch Blast and SCAG -blades)

SCAGtrips aren't very useful for a Swords Bard, since they get Extra Attack, and their speed bonus and Blade Flourishes only work when you take the Attack action (not the SCAGtrips' Cast A Spell Action). SCAGtrips would really only be somewhat useful at Character Level 5 and 6, after the SCAGtrips scale in damage but before Swords' Extra Attack comes online, and only on turns when you don't plan to use a Blade Flourish or need the extra speed. Then once you get Extra Attack at Character Level 7 (Warlock 1/Bard 6), taking the Attack action for 2x attack is going to be a much better option than a SCAGtrip on basically every turn. That relegates SCAGtrips to niche use, like with Warcaster for Booming Blade OAs, if you happen to take that feat.

The rest is valid for a Swords bard, though.

However, I agree that your party doesn't need another melee fighter, but does need a dedicated caster, so that means Lore is definitely the better option between the two in this case.


Lore Bard is also great with its expanded casting from Additional Magical Secrets. The composition of my party has me leaning just a little bit towards full Lore, since we have neither a dedicated healer (Cutting Words serves as our damage mitigation) nor any other full casters (so Fireball at level 6 will be very impactful).

Yep. Lore Bards already get a number of healing and status removal spells, and Magical Secrets can be used to pick up some additional healing/resurrection spells that Bards don't get, like Revivify (later swapped to Raise Dead once it comes online) and Heal. So you can easily cover the role of party healer. And you'd have good AoE options too, between Shatter and Synaptic Static already being Bard spells, plus Fireball as a Magical Secret (later likely being swapped for something else after Synaptic Static comes online).

Straight Lore Bard is a good option, to avoid the delay to your Bard abilities/spells, but I'd second the recommendation for a Cleric 1/Lore Bard X. Having played one before to good effect, I can attest that they can serve as a handy all-around caster with options for controlling/buffing/debuffing/healing/blasting, and Lore Bards really do get a lot out of a 1 level Cleric dip. They're awesome in a large party like yours, to "plug the gaps" for any roles that aren't currently filled by another party member, and support everyone to make them better at their individual roles.

Life, Order, or Peace Cleric are all excellent options for Cleric dip subclass for this character. (Especially since you're going to be the party's sole healer, you can fill that role even better with the assistance of a Life Cleric dip to get Disciple of Life.)

You'd only need a 13ish WIS, for multiclassing purposes. Low WIS doesn't matter on your go-to Cleric spells from the dip, like Guidance, Healing Word, and Bless. And many other commonly useful 1st level Cleric spells that do rely on WIS are also available as CHA-based Bard spells, like Command or Bane.

Much like dipping Hexblade, you'd get armor and shield proficiency to boost your AC. If you're concerned about not having a better CHA-based cantrip than just Vicious Mockery, consider going with Levistus Tiefling for racial CHA-based Ray of Frost, or even VHuman/CLineage with Magic Initiate Warlock or Sorcerer. Or if you can spare a high WIS in addition to a high CHA and are going to dip Cleric, you can use a Cleric cantrip like Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead.

[KorvinStarmast]

Straight Lore Bard is my suggestion. I have one; with your lack of a full arcane caster, the lore bard is a very good fit for your party.

[PattThe]

Between the options you listed, I'd say Lore Bard.

However, I'd still advise taking your first level in something else. Dex is (imo) the weakest of the big 3 saves, and the other Bard profs are nothing to write home about.

Sorcerer means Con Saves, Shield, Absorb Elements and some extra Offensive/Utility Cantrips (I like Divine Soul for Guidance, Firebolt/Toll the Dead, Mold Earth and Shape Water plus Bless).

Fighter also offers Con Saves, weapon/armor/shield profs, Second Wind and a Fighting Style (likely either Defense or Blind Fighting).

Warlock gives Wis Saves, probably weapon/armor/shield profs, and Eldritch Blast+Hex, which should be a "good enough" single target DPS until you can grab Eldritch Adept.

Cleric gives Wis Saves, at least armor and shields, Guidance and a variety of fun subclasses. Peace would be my recommendation there. Win at Skills.

Multiclassing doesn't give you saves..

[ff7hero]

Multiclassing doesn't give you saves..

I was specifically talking about taking their first level in one of those classes.

[PattThe]

I was specifically talking about taking their first level in one of those classes.

OP is level 5 already.
I'd say the warlock dip in this situation would be a gambit for Medium Armor. Is your dex above 15? If not, that could be the most impactful aspect of the class. Also level 6 lore bard is a serious deal considering the options you have. If you can tie that spell into making warlock amazing out of the gate, go for it. Are you hungering for more cantrips? I feel like Bard is extremely strong on its own, and the medium armor and longevity of hexblade may be the biggest reason I could see to take it- if your dex isn't 16. If you're slicing enemies with dex weapons already, then medium armor really doesn't help terribly if you can get an ASI and enchanted st.leather.

Consider assessing everything you need from bard from 5th-8th level and then jumping ship to Warlock to get great secrets. Soemone said taking lvl 8 bard for eldritch adept, but what's losing out on a spell level increase to someone who starts picking up invocations and pact boons? Warlock can spice up a game if it's leant into, but dipping.. always seems tempting.. but might be best after lvl 9. I mean, if a fifth level spell makes the dip even better. I wonder if there's a thread about Additional Magical Secrets and multiclassing into hex blade on this forum somewhere..


Edit: WOW bards are starving for additional cantrips! I get what you mean, and e-blast does get stronger in time regardless of multiclassing, as do GFB etc. I just feel like you shuoldn't seek to be a source of additional damage, after-all, bards aren't exactly machine guns. Your team deals a ton of damage, you may want to consider warlock dips for their mobility and support roles. I mean, with so many powerful physical allies and access to healing magic, you might take pact of the talisman and get that thing working if you go hard lean into heavy warlock.
What eldritch invocations could you combine with 1st-3rd level Additional Magical Secrets to be a monster by level 10, moreso than just a 9/1 split? That's where my mind is going..

[sambojin]

I'd stick with Lore Bard. Faster caster levelling and magical secrets, and Cutting Words is amazing for so many things it's ridiculous. Inspire your party or de-inspire the big bads. Alongside the pretty hefty damage the party will be doing anyway, I think they'd rather a versatile caster that can buff and debuff properly, rather than a mini-fighter with a smidgen of damage boosting.

And if you were to go the multiclassing route, I'd go Arcana Cleric with Lore Bard. Get Armour, get Bless, get Guidance, get Wiz or SCAGtrips, and keep Cutting Words as well. As well as Magical Secrets, just a level later, but still early on comparatively. Then everyone can do everything well, and the enemy still fails their checks and saves when appropriate, plus you get a bit more melee versatility, and can blow stuff up with Fireball too.

[Aaron Underhand]

In your party there is plenty of at will damage, and very little magic. I would stick with lore bard. Fireball at 6th is great in this party, and every level delay will be painful.

Pick up medium armour with a feat, and let the paladin add to your saves....

[PattThe]

In your party there is plenty of at will damage, and very little magic. I would stick with lore bard. Fireball at 6th is great in this party, and every level delay will be painful.

Pick up medium armour with a feat, and let the paladin add to your saves....
Picking that feat is suicide. Multiclass fighter one for a fighting style, medium armor, shields, and second wind for a cheap d10+1. Not to mention +2ish on health for taking the D10 hit die.

[Witty Username]

Hexblade swords bard works pretty well. The primary benefit is cha to atk/damage, I didn't use a shield personally because I was interested in other feats than warcaster but that route is strong if you want to go down it.
I was eventually hexblade 5 for mine, that sounds like a lot for your game though. I wouldn't go more than 3, and you don't need more than 1.
You have a lot of front line, so I would recommend control spells and buffs to give yourself a niche and lean into the strengths of your party (all Frontline party can be really fun because you are a lot tougher than the expected, and your tactics can gain some elegant simplicity because of it).
With this build you will be the fancy one, not as tough as the others but you will have some weird abilities and be plenty tough yourself.

[Aaron Underhand]

Picking that feat is suicide. Multiclass fighter one for a fighting style, medium armor, shields, and second wind for a cheap d10+1. Not to mention +2ish on health for taking the D10 hit die.


I think you mistake my intention. The idea is Not to become a melee combatant, it is to shore up defence, while maintaining maximum spellcasting and earliest access to higher level spells. Unlike mages and clerics your bard prepared spells are not based on your casting stat, so a delay is acceptable. You can't solve both wis saves and con saves ( though keeping close to paladin will help), but you can do something about ac.

A fighter dip delays the crucial casting, and let's be honest, once you get animate objects your damage output will be fine.

This is a big party with limited AoE damage which is why I agree fireball as MS at 6th is a good pick. In other parties I might recommend conjure animals... whatever, your contribution does Not come from melee damage..

[TheMango55]

Lord bard with the moderately armored feat.

[sambojin]

I think you mistake my intention. The idea is Not to become a melee combatant, it is to shore up defence, while maintaining maximum spellcasting and earliest access to higher level spells. Unlike mages and clerics your bard prepared spells are not based on your casting stat, so a delay is acceptable. You can't solve both wis saves and con saves ( though keeping close to paladin will help), but you can do something about ac.

A fighter dip delays the crucial casting, and let's be honest, once you get animate objects your damage output will be fine.

This is a big party with limited AoE damage which is why I agree fireball as MS at 6th is a good pick. In other parties I might recommend conjure animals... whatever, your contribution does Not come from melee damage..

Yep, Bless does saves, yours and others. And a bit of booming or GFB for funsies. And a touch of healing (never waste your Bard spells on that again). And guidance, for extra inspiration, for skillz.

Thus my Arcana Cleric suggestion. It's a tiny bit more attacky (for the party mostly), without sacrificing a full caster level, and gives you a bit of defence too (Shield of Faith or Bless saves), and vaguely flexible lvl1 spell prep. Alongside extended inspirational effects for when concentration isn't a concern.

It's sort of Magical Secrets, but for cantrips and lvl1 spells, and doesn't feel un-Bardy.