The Suicide Squad

[tomandtish]

Didn't see a current thread for it, so here goes.

Overall an enjoyable movie. It relies more on humor than the first one, and the serious moments aren't as serious. It's a good popcorn film. King Shark and Rat Catcher 2 are probably the best two characters, but all of the squad interacts well for the most part.

Now for some more serious discussion.

For those wondering about the huge number of squad members, about half are a "decoy" operation and get taken out in an ambush in the first 15 minutes. The actual Squad is 5 members (joined later by Flagg and Harley who survive the ambush).

Interestingly, Flagg and Harley are assigned to the decoy operation, which appears doomed from the start. Waller even refuses to let Flagg withdraw when they are obviously blown. While Waller wanting Harley dead isn't a surprise, she must really be ticked at Flagg since she's very willing to sacrifice him as well.

These two develop an obvious Father/Daughter relationship. The interaction between them is very heartwarming (esp. since Bloodsport appears to get over his fear of rats at the end).

Imagine someone who loves (or claims to love) America just as much as Captain America, but is the world's biggest phallus-head. That's Peacemaker. "I love peace. And I'll kill every man, woman, and child to get it". He's obviously going to become a bad guy at some point. Interesting that he's apparently getting his own series.

Again, overall a nice enjoyable popcorn movie. Not going to win any Oscars (other than technical ones), but certainly worth watching.

[Mechalich]

Overall an enjoyable movie. It relies more on humor than the first one, and the serious moments aren't as serious. It's a good popcorn film. King Shark and Rat Catcher 2 are probably the best two characters, but all of the squad interacts well for the most part.

Broadly agree. The writing here is good enough that the actors can just lean into their roles and ride along for the madness, leaving an excellent character dynamic throughout. It feels like a film that everyone involved enjoyed making. The jokes don't always land and the hyper-stylized violence isn't always great, but there's enough of both to keep the movie constantly moving and consistently fun.


Imagine someone who loves (or claims to love) America just as much as Captain America, but is the world's biggest phallus-head. That's Peacemaker. "I love peace. And I'll kill every man, woman, and child to get it". He's obviously going to become a bad guy at some point. Interesting that he's apparently getting his own series.

John Cena is comparatively available for a TV role of this kind and comparatively cheap versus Idris Elba or Margot Robbie (and he's the sort of guy who keeps himself in 'action star shape' as a matter of course). He's also reached the point where's he just proven himself enough as an actor to anchor something like this. It seems a very logical choice to me. I'm not sure it will work, but I can see why the studio backed it.

[Tyndmyr]

This was a surprisingly fun film. I'm glad they just leaned into all the comic book madness and embraced the wonkier elements. I mean, DC is chock full of off the wall D-list villains, and really, how much use are they in the sort of somber atmosphere the main DCU strives for? This is the perfect environment for them.


I was quite happy to see Waller get some come-uppance. She's both morally reprehensible and kind of a terrible strategist. Yeah, she's an iconic part of the premise, but getting her out of the way seems.....satisfyingly well deserved.



Mad respect to the literal army of SFX folks working on this film. They had a seriously huge job.

[Giggling Ghast]

Very good film. I never watched the first Suicide Squad so I can't compare it to the first one, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. James Gunn is clearly right in his element when given the freedom to throw in some over-the-top gore alongside the goofy plot elements. Good casting all around. Props to the small army of CGI technicians that managed to pull it all off.

There are just two things that struck me as kind of odd:

1) Harley Quinn is an anti-American symbol? Really? Anti-establishment, certainly, but anti-American? Then again, this might be a "Germans love David Hasselhoff" thing and she resonates differently in a country with strong anti-American resentment.

2) What was up with those fish that attacked King Shark? They were just kinda ... there. And they were the only thing in the movie, aside from Starro, that actually could hurt him. I assume they were also aliens and were prisoners like Starro.

[Bartmanhomer]

I was going to do the Suicide Squad thread but tomandtish beat me to it.

The Part that I like is that there was action and it was fast-paced. The part that I disliked was that some of the villains were useless and stupid evil. It was a good movie. I'll give it 8 out of 10 stars.

[Talakeal]

I am one of the few people who actually liked the first one, this one was all right but not as good.

Bloodsport was basically Deadshot 2.0 and better in every way. Margot Robbie is great as always, and I love her new look. Rat-catcher was adorable. Polka Dot man was surprisingly compelling.

King Shark was criminally wasted. He had literally zero impact on the plot, and although he was charming, he wasn't quite as memorable as effeminate version from Harley Quinn or the "King Shark is a Shark" version from the DCAU.

I opening scene was a bit weird, from both an in and out of character perspective. I think it would have had much more gravitas if it had been the entire original squad getting wiped out, and much more comedy if it was entirely new guys, but I guess you aren't going to shell out Will Smith money to kill him off in the first three minutes.


I will say one thing though, this may be the most RPG movie I have ever seen. They acted exactly like PCs at every turn, especially the part where they wipe out the rebel camp and the conversations about not remembering people's names.

[Lemmy]

It's a pretty good movie.

It's a shame it's performing so poorly at the box office... But considering it's a quasi-sequel to the first Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey, it's understandable that audiences aren't too eager to give it the benefit of doubt.

[Mechalich]

It's a pretty good movie.

It's a shame it's performing so poorly at the box office... But considering it's a quasi-sequel to the first Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey, it's understandable that audiences aren't too eager to give it the benefit of doubt.

It's also a hard-R movie and that has traditionally impacted box office performance, especially in the US. For whatever reason American families are remarkably open to taking even very young children to see PG-13 films - I recall I many kids who could not possibly have been above eight years old present when I saw Avengers: Endgame in theaters - but balk at bringing them to see R-rated films. This may count double in this time of Covid as young adult and adult audiences without children are more likely to watch streaming versions at home than rush to the theater. I think this might be a telling difference compared to a movie like Jungle Cruise, which is extremely family friendly and did unexpectedly well.

[Lemmy]

It's also a hard-R movie and that has traditionally impacted box office performance, especially in the US. For whatever reason American families are remarkably open to taking even very young children to see PG-13 films - I recall I many kids who could not possibly have been above eight years old present when I saw Avengers: Endgame in theaters - but balk at bringing them to see R-rated films. This may count double in this time of Covid as young adult and adult audiences without children are more likely to watch streaming versions at home than rush to the theater. I think this might be a telling difference compared to a movie like Jungle Cruise, which is extremely family friendly and did unexpectedly well.
That's a factor, but we've had successful R-rated comic book movies in the past, from 300 to the far more recent Deadpool. Until more information comes forth, I honestly think the main cause of this movie's failure is due to its predecessors. Most people don't know anything about its production.. They just see the name "Suicide Squad" and remember how bad the last one was (as well as its kind-of-sequel, Birds of Prey).

Generally, how good or bad a movie is has a greater impact on its sequel than on itself, since by the time people figure the movie is good or bad, they have already seen (and more importantly, paid for) it.

[Wintermoot]

There's a number of factors:

The Delta Variant COVID breakout
The completely extraneous R rating for the sake of saying they have an R rating
Simulcasting to HBO Max
The mediocrity to downright terribleness of its predecessor movies.

WB was hoping for only 30 million out of the opening weekend and they got about 23. So, yeah, not as much as they hoped, but they knew they were never going to earn back the budget based on everything against them. I'm not going to label this movie a failure just yet. It's getting enough positive press and accolades from people who've seen it that I won't be surprised to see a sequel or for WB to think "this is a good path to follow." Yes, they will never make their money back at the box office, and by that measure, its bad, but I think WB knew that and I think they'll use other metrics to determine their internal success rating. At least I sincerely hope so, because I pray we get more DC movies like this.

Personally, I loved this movie. I think I loved it more than most of the Marvel movies to be honest. I definitely love it more than the prior James Gunn movies (Gotg, Gotg2)

First: Starro the starfish conqueror is my favorite DC comics property so to see it on the screen and see it so awesomely made was fantastic for me. It was exactly as I always imagined it.

Second: the movie is the perfect flow including the "false open" slaughter of team one, the flashback to putting the real team together, and the multi-stage steps to accomplish the goal of a classic caper flick.

Third: the compare contract between Bloodsport and Peacemaker. The entire arc between the two of them is perfectly done. a special shout-out to the two of them trying to one-up each other while taking out the rebel camp.

Fourth: King Shark. Yes, he didn't have much impact on the plot, but every scene he's in is fantastic.

That's not to say there isn't problems. There's literally no reason for this to be R rated other than they wanted to be R rated. They threw in two gratuitous nipple shots in the background of the bar scene and a couple gory face-blown-off corpse shots in order to get it over that hump. The movie would've been just as fine, if not better, without those and the PG-13 rating would've probably got them over their 30M hump IMO. But who knows. Perhaps the pre-release negative blowback from a certain brand of "fans" mad about it not being R would've countered it. There's always that small batch of people who just really want something to be R so they can feel like its more badass in some way.

Still... HIGHLY recommend. Fantastic movie.

[Psyren]

King Shark as the ur-himbo was fantastic.
John Cena was surprisingly good.
Polka Dot Man was suitably and unexpectedly creepy.
Rat-lady was forgettable.

Peter Capaldi, aside from one great Doctor-worthy monologue, was completely wasted. I feel like none of these comic book properties know what to do with former doctors (save Jessica Jones), and it makes me really nervous for Matt Smith's appearance in Morbius.

As much as I like Margot Robbie, stopping the entire movie dead in its tracks for Harley Quinn 3 in the middle of it was a bizarre choice. The entire point of that sequence seemed to be to get her into that dress for the rest of the runtime.




I was quite happy to see Waller get some come-uppance. She's both morally reprehensible and kind of a terrible strategist. Yeah, she's an iconic part of the premise, but getting her out of the way seems.....satisfyingly well deserved.



I mean, did she?

- She got exactly what she wanted from the get-go (the info not leaked to the public.)
- Starro is dead anyway, and the only country it ravaged was a war-torn Nowhereistan to begin with, so eventually that info will be utterly useless even if it does get out.
- She's still in charge of the SS program.
- AFAIK the bombs are still in all their necks, and all she has to do to re-arrest them safely is find Bloodsport's server, which a Nick Fury character like her will do eventually.
- Apparently the last movie was canon too, so all the people she murdered there still got no justice.

In what real way was there a comeuppance for her? At least Nick Fury had to disband SHIELD and lay low for a while. She didn't even come close to that kind of consequence, and she doesn't even have HYDRA as an excuse for being terrible. Worst of all, what she's doing is the kind of thing both Superman and Batman would be against, but the DCEU is all over the place so it will never get addressed, despite one of her guys having apparently "put Superman in the ICU with a kryptonite bullet," which is the kind of thing you'd think would get you on his radar.

As worldbuilding goes it's a giant mess. I love Viola Davis in this role but thinking about the premise for more than a minute shows what a rickety stool it is.

[CheesePirate]

Rat-lady was forgettable.

Personally I thought Ratcatcher 2 was awesome. Love Sebastian too.

My favourite DC Comics film so far.

[Psyren]

Personally I thought Ratcatcher 2 was awesome. Love Sebastian too.

My favourite DC Comics film so far.

Wonder Woman 1 is still my favorite. TSS is up near the top, but that's more a reflection on the DCEU than this one's own merits.

[Tyndmyr]

Peter Capaldi, aside from one great Doctor-worthy monologue, was completely wasted. I feel like none of these comic book properties know what to do with former doctors (save Jessica Jones), and it makes me really nervous for Matt Smith's appearance in Morbius.

Realistically, Morbius is probably gonna be really rough. I'll still watch it, because I'm a sucker for comic book stuff, and the potential inclusion of the Vulture is interesting. Beyond that? Ehhh.


As much as I like Margot Robbie, stopping the entire movie dead in its tracks for Harley Quinn 3 in the middle of it was a bizarre choice. The entire point of that sequence seemed to be to get her into that dress for the rest of the runtime.

It had more character growth for her than the entire Birds of Prey movie. Not a *lot* of growth, but it far more efficiently does the job of making her an independent character than the previous two attempts did. She's not really my favorite character overall, but I can't deny that she is popular and marketable, so attempting to salvage her character is probably a decent call for the brand, even if it's not essential to this film.




I mean, did she?

Eh, she's definitely still in the game, but at least she got *some* setbacks. An ongoing villain to maintain the overall premise is fine, but the audience likes to see them at least taking hits from time to time.

In part, we're constrained by the previous movies apparently still sort of being canon. Yeah, just wholly memory holing half the DCU might be for the best, because the DCU doesn't make an awful lot of sense to begin with, but that doesn't seem like it's on the table. For every problem the MCU has, such as "why does Capt Marvel fix that" for half the problems...the DCU has that way worse, given the existence of characters like Superman.

Ultimately, they're unlikely to ever reach the sort of cross-movie worldbuilding of the MCU. I expect the kryptonite bullet will just be forgotten about, without even a nod in the next Supe/Justice League film. That's not really a failing of this film so much as it is an ongoing problem with the whole universe.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I was quite happy to see Waller get some come-uppance. She's both morally reprehensible and kind of a terrible strategist. Yeah, she's an iconic part of the premise, but getting her out of the way seems.....satisfyingly well deserved.

Did Waller get splashed?

Then good. Very, very good. I had the unfortunate experience of watching the first movie, and awful as it was, she was one of the very worst parts. Glad she’s gone.

[Tyndmyr]

Did Waller get splashed?

Then good. Very, very good. I had the unfortunate experience of watching the first movie, and awful as it was, she was one of the very worst parts. Glad she’s gone.


Without getting into terribly spoileriffic details, it isn't that final. But it is still delightful to watch her get some payback for being...a straight up awful person.

[Giggling Ghast]

I dunno why y’all saying the “R” rating was extraneous. What about the scenes where we see what became of the Thinker’s experiments, which basically amounted to rather graphic vivisection? Did you not see King Shark bite off a dude’s head and watch as the eyes of the dude’s still conscious head rolled around in their sockets? What about when the little birdy pecked meaty chunks out of what was left of Savant's neck?

I could name quite a few other gory examples. This was a pretty hard R movie.

[Psyren]

Did Waller get splashed?

Then good. Very, very good. I had the unfortunate experience of watching the first movie, and awful as it was, she was one of the very worst parts. Glad she’s gone.

No, not even close. Very still around.


Realistically, Morbius is probably gonna be really rough. I'll still watch it, because I'm a sucker for comic book stuff, and the potential inclusion of the Vulture is interesting. Beyond that? Ehhh.

Agreed.


It had more character growth for her than the entire Birds of Prey movie. Not a *lot* of growth, but it far more efficiently does the job of making her an independent character than the previous two attempts did. She's not really my favorite character overall, but I can't deny that she is popular and marketable, so attempting to salvage her character is probably a decent call for the brand, even if it's not essential to this film.

You misunderstand - I don't have a problem with Harley getting a major sequence, and I completely agree with her brand potency. I just feel they didn't have to grind the main movie to a halt to do it. What I'm saying is that they should have at least tried to tie her little sidequest in with the main plot.

As an example off the cuff, Nowhereistan's Prince Fanservice can get smitten with her as before (having stupidly mistaken her wacky antics/rampant crimes for Anti-West Anarchism), followed by getting abruptly murdered the first time she notices a hint of Joker red flag. But she was banging a guy from the inner circle of the whole regime, followed by being tortured by his successor - some key bit of information should have come from one or both of them, like the Thinker's whereabouts, the knowledge of the US involvement in Starro's development, or the existence of the hard drive evidencing it. Information she can then deliver to the main Squad (or at least to Rick Flagg, her closest friend in the crew) once they come to "rescue" her.



Eh, she's definitely still in the game, but at least she got *some* setbacks. An ongoing villain to maintain the overall premise is fine, but the audience likes to see them at least taking hits from time to time.

In part, we're constrained by the previous movies apparently still sort of being canon. Yeah, just wholly memory holing half the DCU might be for the best, because the DCU doesn't make an awful lot of sense to begin with, but that doesn't seem like it's on the table. For every problem the MCU has, such as "why does Capt Marvel fix that" for half the problems...the DCU has that way worse, given the existence of characters like Superman.

Ultimately, they're unlikely to ever reach the sort of cross-movie worldbuilding of the MCU. I expect the kryptonite bullet will just be forgotten about, without even a nod in the next Supe/Justice League film. That's not really a failing of this film so much as it is an ongoing problem with the whole universe.



Other than the literal one she gets from the background characters, I didn't see many hits being taken is all.

I agree with all the rest.

[Wintermoot]

You misunderstand - I don't have a problem with Harley getting a major sequence, and I completely agree with her brand potency. I just feel they didn't have to grind the main movie to a halt to do it. What I'm saying is that they should have at least tried to tie her little sidequest in with the main plot.



I would agree with this sentiment. The Harley interlude certainly felt disjointed and could/should have been more integrated and interwoven. I, personally, have a real dislike of the "hero hangs from chains from the ceiling and is tortured pointlessly" scene that has been done, redone, re-redone into the dirt so many times I just roll my eyes at this point and go to the bathroom if I need to.

that being said, Harley's speech after shooting el presidente was a high point, character defining speech that I wouldn't want to give up. Nor would I want to give up the "harley escapes, finds the others come to rescue her and offers to go back in so they can do it" entire crawl because it was fantastic.

[Psyren]

I would agree with this sentiment. The Harley interlude certainly felt disjointed and could/should have been more integrated and interwoven. I, personally, have a real dislike of the "hero hangs from chains from the ceiling and is tortured pointlessly" scene that has been done, redone, re-redone into the dirt so many times I just roll my eyes at this point and go to the bathroom if I need to.

that being said, Harley's speech after shooting el presidente was a high point, character defining speech that I wouldn't want to give up. Nor would I want to give up the "harley escapes, finds the others come to rescue her and offers to go back in so they can do it" entire crawl because it was fantastic.

Yeah I put "rescue" in quotes because her busting herself out was the strongest part of that sequence, followed closely by her character-defining speech as you mentioned.

What I feel a lot of adaptations get wrong about Harley isn't just that she's the manic pixie, brutal psychopath genki girl dragon that the Joker made her into - she's also one of the most brilliant psychiatrists in Gotham. It's something the Harley Quinn cartoon nailed, and her speech in this movie was the DCEU's first attempt at actually capturing that on live action.

[Talakeal]

Yeah I put "rescue" in quotes because her busting herself out was the strongest part of that sequence, followed closely by her character-defining speech as you mentioned.

What I feel a lot of adaptations get wrong about Harley isn't just that she's the manic pixie, brutal psychopath genki girl dragon that the Joker made her into - she's also one of the most brilliant psychiatrists in Gotham. It's something the Harley Quinn cartoon nailed, and her speech in this movie was the DCEU's first attempt at actually capturing that on live action.

I thought her talk with Cassandra in the car in Birds of Prey demonstrated this pretty well.


I also think that her DLC for Arkham Knight is pretty cool as it puts you inside her head and you here the struggle between doing what she knows is right / rational and doing what the Joker would want her to do, its an interesting inversion of the usual crazy guys who hears voices trope.

[Dragonus45]

I think it would have been a great way to tie the Harley stuff in if they had her kill off Presidente MK2 during her escape, and perhaps find a way to have her shoot whoever would be third in line later as well so that by the time the rebels go to take over it turns out Harley already decapitated the entire government, and you could probably play that into a great follow up joke joke about her being a national hero again because she shot all the dictators and brought free elections and all that jazz... entirely on accident.

[Spacewolf]

It was a entertaining film, for some reason it went downhill quite abit towards the end as the seriousness ramped up possibly because Starro and Thinker don't really do to much and the city feels pretty washed out. Wallers decision doesn't make sense even in character really she's not supposed to be stupid evil after all. I don't think she planned for the intro to happen as it did either, she just rolled with the situation.

[Ramza00]

It was a entertaining film, for some reason it went downhill quite abit towards the end as the seriousness ramped up possibly because Starro and Thinker don't really do to much and the city feels pretty washed out. Wallers decision doesn't make sense even in character really she's not supposed to be stupid evil after all. I don't think she planned for the intro to happen as it did either, she just rolled with the situation.

I have heard Waller has an aesthetic similar to a depressed person. Her heart is no longer in it over the last 5 years, controlling the uncontrollable. Superman can always save the day so causalities are just numbers to her, and thus not her problem.

[BRC]

I have heard Waller has an aesthetic similar to a depressed person. Her heart is no longer in it over the last 5 years, controlling the uncontrollable. Superman can always save the day so causalities are just numbers to her, and thus not her problem.

I will say the film does not cast a favorable light on Waller.

In my mind, Waller should be cold and ruthless, but no more cruel than she deems necessary. She wouldn't view herself as a Hero, but she believes she is in the right.

The film does not show her in a good light. She either
A) Failed to stop Blackguard from making a phone call with Squad A's landing location and time (And, "Don't let one of your untrustworthy assets literally call the enemy with info" is a pretty basic part of her job) or
B) Sent in Squad B led by a man with a Rat Phobia, and babysitting King-Shark, on a mission that required them to move stealthily through a city.
That bit succeeded because they teamed up with the Freedom Fighters, but the Freedom Fighters were not part of the plan. We had no indication that Waller knew they existed.

I've heard the Suicide Squad described as, less a spec-ops team, and more of a Grenade that Waller throws in the general direction of a problem, hoping they cause enough chaos to achieve her end-goal. And that kind of fit this film?


For me, the moment that tipped the edge was Waller ordering them to not engage Starro and try to save the city. Waller is not a good person, but part of the whole concept is that she views the Squad members as completely disposable. She has one lever to pull when it comes to controlling them, and that's the bombs in their heads, because if you're not useful to Waller, you might as well just die.

With Starro, she goes from "Cold and calculating" to just...Stupid Evil. "Let Starro destroy this city and infect countless people, doing so is good for the government".
Her one argument might be that she's trying to protect her assets (The Squad), but the whole point is that she doesn't care if they live or die. There's no world in which blowing their bombs to stop them from Superheroing fits her general mindset. If they were insisting on charging off into certain death, why threaten them with immediate death to stop them? Either way she gets dead squad members.


Unless the mass destruction of Starro's rampage was her actual goal, which moves her from "Cold and Calculating" to "Stupid Evil".

[Ramza00]

But that means admitting, Waller admitting, she does not have control. And control is what it is all about. Waller is an avatar of the system, incarnated as a tough as nails person. The military industry complex, they do not negotiated it is antithetical to their self image internally, but also their self image externally.

She can't control the people of her suicide squad grenade once she starts negotiating with them.

[Psyren]

*snip*

Yeah it made not a damn bit of sense. Like let's say they left, okay, the world thinks Nowhereistan unleashed Starro and the US's hands are clean. I guess it's Superman's problem now? But where is he? Does she really think there's no danger to the US from that thing if nobody turns back before it's able to reach the mesosphere?


I think it would have been a great way to tie the Harley stuff in if they had her kill off Presidente MK2 during her escape, and perhaps find a way to have her shoot whoever would be third in line later as well so that by the time the rebels go to take over it turns out Harley already decapitated the entire government, and you could probably play that into a great follow up joke joke about her being a national hero again because she shot all the dictators and brought free elections and all that jazz... entirely on accident.

I don't mind this either.

Just something that would have made sequestering her in the belly of the beast for almost the entire second act mean something.


It was a entertaining film, for some reason it went downhill quite abit towards the end as the seriousness ramped up possibly because Starro and Thinker don't really do to much and the city feels pretty washed out. Wallers decision doesn't make sense even in character really she's not supposed to be stupid evil after all. I don't think she planned for the intro to happen as it did either, she just rolled with the situation.

Yeah she really jumped off the deep end didn't she? Which makes her simply sitting in her office at the end while all the mutineers take a coffee break even more jarring. But WB knows that Viola Davis is the second-best part of this franchise behind Margot Robbie so no real comeuppance is in order.

[BRC]

Yeah it made not a damn bit of sense. Like let's say they left, okay, the world thinks Nowhereistan unleashed Starro and the US's hands are clean. I guess it's Superman's problem now? But where is he? Does she really think there's no danger to the US from that thing if nobody turns back before it's able to reach the mesosphere?


The thing is, I feel like you could have gotten the same result with a slightly different outcome.


Waller says "Your mission is done. Get out of there, Starro isn't your problem."

Bloodsport says "We're not going to let it infect this city"

Waller tries to order them to leave anyway, Bloodsport retorts with "We're going to fight that thing. You can blow our bombs if you want, but we both know that's not how you work. You can kill us, in which case you get nothing, or you can help us, in which case you might get some of your toys back. What's it going to be".

Beat as Waller pauses, then she says "Task Force X, New Mission. Destroy Starro the Conqueror by any means necessary. If you get infected, I will not hesitate to detonate your bombs."

Like, make it clear, she's not happy about being disobeyed, but she's a pragmatist.

[Ramza00]

The writers and directors wrote Waller as megalomaniacal and high on her own supply, it was all about control, and she has options she controls like nukes and Superman and she was indifferent to casualties. Casualties are part of the job, in fact dead people do not produce chaos, live people do when they are now cowed thus she used the 1st SS team which had veterans of 5 years of experience, and a noble agent going soft (he abandoned the mission to save his friend of 5 years.) Hell Pete Davidson / Blackguard doing the betrayal likely occurred with Waller’s knowledge.

A different writer and director could write Waller as a pragmatist and not with megalomania and that could be an interesting story. But there are reasons, there are themes that went through the entire movie, and not just the last / third act. It was going to happen the way it did, or else the 1st and 2nd act themselves would have been different.

[Mechalich]

I think it would have helped, slightly, it Waller was given a line that implied she believed the surviving squad members were utterly incapable of doing anything about Starro, which it seems likely is something she strongly felt to be true. That calculation makes a lot more sense.

And she's not really wrong, exactly. The Starro absolutely smashes the team initially. Bloodsport and King Shark are incapable of doing more than cosmetic damage, and though Polkadot Man does inflict injury, he's immediately killed and it doesn't seem like something Starro couldn't heal. Harley can't even get into position to engage, much less do anything. The Suicide Squad triumphs via deus ex rattus (and man, that island has one colossal rodent problem) rather than anything of their own doing.

[Giggling Ghast]

Here’s two things to consider about Waller’s decision towards the end of the movie:

1) Because Starro was being studied secretly by the U.S. government, Waller would likely have an idea of Starro’s offensive capabilities. She would know full well if he posed a threat to the world or just the dismal little nation of Corto Maltese, which apparently has an anti-American sentiment. This version of Starro is definitely weaker than his comic incarnation, which is a threat that generally requires the whole Justice League to take on. She likely believed Superman or Wonder Woman or Aquaman could handle a rampaging Starro, or if not, a nuke could probably wrap things up. No more Starro, no more Corto Maltese.

2) Task Force X is supposed to be top secret, as it would be a pretty huge scandal for people to hear that the U.S. government is employing supervillains to carry out top-secret missions. (Weasel ate 27 children. Their parents would not be happy to learn he was now free because of Waller.)

However, by fighting Starro, the squad ended up garnering international attention. Remember Bloodsport’s daughter saw him on the television? This, Waller’s pet project is that much closer to being exposed.

That said, I’m surprised you all consider Amanda Waller to be a paragon of competence? Again, I’m not a diehard DC comics fan, but her animated counterparts constantly create messes that the JL have to clean up.

[Bartmanhomer]

I compared Starro to Godzilla combined with Doomsday with the starfish mind-control abilities. These supervillains have a chance of heart to save a country from a giant space starfish. (Why not say sea star instead. That's the correct term instead of starfish but whatever.)

[GloatingSwine]

I think it would have helped, slightly, it Waller was given a line that implied she believed the surviving squad members were utterly incapable of doing anything about Starro, which it seems likely is something she strongly felt to be true. That calculation makes a lot more sense.

And she's not really wrong, exactly. The Starro absolutely smashes the team initially. Bloodsport and King Shark are incapable of doing more than cosmetic damage, and though Polkadot Man does inflict injury, he's immediately killed and it doesn't seem like something Starro couldn't heal. Harley can't even get into position to engage, much less do anything. The Suicide Squad triumphs via deus ex rattus (and man, that island has one colossal rodent problem) rather than anything of their own doing.

Ultimately though, the reason Waller acts the way she does is that she does not care what Starro does, because the whole point of the plot and Peacemaker's secret orders within it is that the powers that Waller represents do not give one single solitary damn what happens to the people of Corto Maltese as long as it doesn't make the USA look bad.

Someone like the Justice League will show up and deal with Starro, the USA retains deniability, the surviving members of the squad can be used on another mission later, it doesn't matter what happens to anyone on the island because they're foreign.

[Psyren]

That said, I’m surprised you all consider Amanda Waller to be a paragon of competence? Again, I’m not a diehard DC comics fan, but her animated counterparts constantly create messes that the JL have to clean up.

She has to be at least somewhat competent, because alien gods and freaking Batman know what she's up to, clearly disapprove, yet she's still allowed to do it.

More pertinent though is that she's clearly being positioned in these movies as a Nick Fury type, the government official who keeps the metahumans in line by outsmarting them, so that is what people will expect her to be. For her to abandon the big picture in a fit of pique is pretty jarring, given that comparison.

[Trafalgar]

That said, I’m surprised you all consider Amanda Waller to be a paragon of competence? Again, I’m not a diehard DC comics fan, but her animated counterparts constantly create messes that the JL have to clean up.

I was hoping for the twist to be that Amanda Waller had a bomb placed in her skull and she was being controlled by someone higher up in the Illuminati food chain.

Because she is to Masterminds what the Javelin is to Supervillains.

[GloatingSwine]

More pertinent though is that she's clearly being positioned in these movies as a Nick Fury type, the government official who keeps the metahumans in line by outsmarting them, so that is what people will expect her to be. For her to abandon the big picture in a fit of pique is pretty jarring, given that comparison.

I think that's what they were trying to go for in the first movie, but the first movie was so crashingly ineptly edited and probably pretty dumb before that that it didn't matter what they were trying.

In this movie, she's not outsmarting anyone. She's strongarming people, blackmailing them, and imposing her will through force and the ability to detonate their brains when she wants.

And that is on purpose. It is part of the theme.

[Spacewolf]

Ultimately though, the reason Waller acts the way she does is that she does not care what Starro does, because the whole point of the plot and Peacemaker's secret orders within it is that the powers that Waller represents do not give one single solitary damn what happens to the people of Corto Maltese as long as it doesn't make the USA look bad.

Someone like the Justice League will show up and deal with Starro, the USA retains deniability, the surviving members of the squad can be used on another mission later, it doesn't matter what happens to anyone on the island because they're foreign.

It'd have made more sense if she'd either told them to kill it so the US could take the credit for killing it. Or if she'd said to just get out of there and leave it to Superman as he's a better representation of liberty than them, and she doesn't want him to be seen working with villains. Just saying get out of there because is pretty lazy writing to make the villains heroic because our protagonist villains aren't actually allowed to be evil.

Another issue I have with the movie is Harley, she has some really good scenes but the film also slams into a brick wall so those scenes can happen. I understand Harley is pretty much the biggest draw with these films but I'd rather have had more time with the new team. I also liked the jellyfish scene but again it doesn't really fit into the film which is a shame since it was a good scene for King Shark.

[Tyndmyr]

I think that's what they were trying to go for in the first movie, but the first movie was so crashingly ineptly edited and probably pretty dumb before that that it didn't matter what they were trying.

In this movie, she's not outsmarting anyone. She's strongarming people, blackmailing them, and imposing her will through force and the ability to detonate their brains when she wants.

And that is on purpose. It is part of the theme.

Certainly.

I would argue that in the first movie, she is incredibly incompetent. In this one, she is...while not a shining paragon of competence, much more of an evil, uncaring bastard than an inept buffoon.

And that's okay, because that's pretty much what Waller's character is supposed to be.

[Ramza00]

Just saying get out of there because is pretty lazy writing to make the villains heroic because our protagonist villains aren't actually allowed to be evil.

That was not the message / meaning. It was that the system and it’s avatar is monstrous, even to the point it looks cartoonish. But that is us and our projection. We want the system to be competent, for humans want in our imagination the systems we live under to be something close to “just”, for it helps us to not feel alienated with the system we live under, we justify the unjustifiable for making nonsense rationalizations is one technique to deal with the absurd.

Points to this thread for literal demonstrations of this. Some of us are bargaining as a grief reaction saying in a better movie X would happen, others are doing the depressed thing, or angry, etc.

[Psyren]

I think that's what they were trying to go for in the first movie, but the first movie was so crashingly ineptly edited and probably pretty dumb before that that it didn't matter what they were trying.

In this movie, she's not outsmarting anyone. She's strongarming people, blackmailing them, and imposing her will through force and the ability to detonate their brains when she wants.

And that is on purpose. It is part of the theme.

I wouldn't say she didn't outsmart anyone. She boxed in Bloodsport to lead her team pretty easily. And Flagg certainly still seems to be on a leash despite Enchantress being very dead.

She also has "power-dampening collars" at her disposal, and who the hell knows if they'll even remember or bother to explain those.

[GloatingSwine]

I wouldn't say she didn't outsmart anyone. She boxed in Bloodsport to lead her team pretty easily. And Flagg certainly still seems to be on a leash despite Enchantress being very dead.

She also has "power-dampening collars" at her disposal, and who the hell knows if they'll even remember or bother to explain those.

Yeah, but she didn't do that by being particularly clever or cunning, she did it by demonstrating power over him. She has the power to hurt something he cares about and the will to do so, and he has no power to stop her.


It'd have made more sense if she'd either told them to kill it so the US could take the credit for killing it. Or if she'd said to just get out of there and leave it to Superman as he's a better representation of liberty than them, and she doesn't want him to be seen working with villains. Just saying get out of there because is pretty lazy writing to make the villains heroic because our protagonist villains aren't actually allowed to be evil.

No, that would have demonstrated that she cared.

She doesn't.

Starro literally does not feature in her decisions. It is not her problem, it is not the US government's problem. Waller is an absolute stone cold psychopath whose only reaction to the deaths of probably hundreds of thousands is "meh" but will absolutely demand obedience to her will.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but she didn't do that by being particularly clever or cunning, she did it by demonstrating power over him. She has the power to hurt something he cares about and the will to do so, and he has no power to stop her.

That power was based on knowledge. She knew about his daughter and their strained relationship before she came to visit him for the first time, knew the details of her crime, and knew what strings to pull to not only get her tried as an adult but assigned to the same prison as him if convicted. Those aren't trivial manipulations.

And again, she has at her hands technology that can suppress metahumans, which I don't think we've seen in the DCEU as of yet. Remember that before this, her only leash on Enchantress was having her heart in her possession. That could come in handy even beyond TSS.

[GloatingSwine]

That power was based on knowledge. She knew about his daughter and their strained relationship before she came to visit him for the first time, knew the details of her crime, and knew what strings to pull to not only get her tried as an adult but assigned to the same prison as him if convicted. Those aren't trivial manipulations.

And again, she has at her hands technology that can suppress metahumans, which I don't think we've seen in the DCEU as of yet. Remember that before this, her only leash on Enchantress was having her heart in her possession. That could come in handy even beyond TSS.

Yeah, but having access to technology and people to tell her things doesn't make her clever, it doesn't help her outsmart people.

She is good at applying pressure but she's good at that not because she's particularly smart, but because she's particularly ruthless.

We are not supposed to see her in this film as some kind of master-plan chessmaster, we're supposed to see her as the brutal but effective face of a powerful uncaring organisation.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but having access to technology and people to tell her things doesn't make her clever, it doesn't help her outsmart people.

She is good at applying pressure but she's good at that not because she's particularly smart, but because she's particularly ruthless.

We are not supposed to see her in this film as some kind of master-plan chessmaster, we're supposed to see her as the brutal but effective face of a powerful uncaring organisation.

I never said she was a "chessmaster." But the things she knows - including Batman's secret identity, I'll remind you - certainly put her in the upper half of DCEU brains.

[GloatingSwine]

I never said she was a "chessmaster." But the things she knows - including Batman's secret identity, I'll remind you - certainly put her in the upper half of DCEU brains.

That's not how knowing things works. She doesn't know Batman's secret identity because she's clever enough that that information just sort of pops into her head, or because there's some disparate set of otherwise unconnected facts that only she is clever enough to have deduced the meaning of.

She knows it because she's got an amazingly large and powerful intelligence gathering organisation at her fingertips and the classification level to be allowed to be told those things.

Waller is, in pretty much all of her incarnations, the face of systemic power. When she flexes on someone like Batman by reminding him she knows his secret identity she's not saying "I figured this out" she's saying "The government is watching you, you have no secrets from us".

[Psyren]

She knows it because she's got an amazingly large and powerful intelligence gathering organisation at her fingertips and the classification level to be allowed to be told those things.

And that's different from Nick Fury how? Furthermore, how do you think someone becomes head of a "large and powerful intelligence gathering organization" in the first place?

[Ramza00]

People are talking past each other for we are doing binary gradients. It is like saying there is "Mind-Body" dualism (a cartesian myth), and then trying to apply that logic to The Hulk. Is Bruce Banner a separate personality, a separate person from The Hulk? How about the other incarnations of The Hulk and Bruce through his comic history? Using a Mind-Body duality, and the limits of language and you get this.

-----

Waller has over 500+ appearances in comics over the years in her 35 year comic history. Not all of these appearances are "continuous" belonging to alternative realities, else worlds, etc.

But even in the same reality, even with different writers, and also with the same writer and in different story she has been written differently. Her being written as not-clever (but smarter than the average human), who uses force, and the powers of the system is a common way she has been written and it lead to disastrous results of her own making (Waller is her own Nemesis) in the late 80s / early 90s of the comics. Likewise in other stories she is hyper-competent for that is what the story needed as a foil, or the writer just like those aesthetics.

The Writer, Director, and other creative team of this specific movie wrote a Waller that is true to previous incarnations, while at the same time telling their own story with themes, meaning, etc. Waller did what she did for she cares about different things than you. :smalltongue: Waller cares about her turf* and only that thing.

Edit: wrong vowel for a word.

[GloatingSwine]

And that's different from Nick Fury how? Furthermore, how do you think someone becomes head of a "large and powerful intelligence gathering organization" in the first place?

Amanda Waller isn't the head of the US Government or any of its intelligence gathering organisations*. She's a manager of Task Force X specifically. And you get to those levels by being an effective politician. Which she is. Hell we see it in the movie, she's more concerned about looking good at a golf game with an elected official than with the mission.

That doesn't require particular intelligence, as I think we should all know by now.

We are not supposed to think that Amanda Waller is personally clever or competent (she screws up repeatedly, not checking whether the team can swim on a water insertion, not recognising Bloodsport's reaction to Sebastian when introducing Ratcatcher), we are supposed to think that she is the face of a callous, ruthless organisation that is so large and powerful it does not need to be either.

Like what's Batman going to do if he disapproves? Declare war on the United States? Get rid of Waller and another manager starts doing the exact same job.




* Yes, that is a correct British spelling. First rule of nitpicking spellings on the internet, you're always going to screw up.

[Psyren]

Amanda Waller isn't the head of the US Government or any of its intelligence gathering organisations. She's a manager of Task Force X specifically.

Nice goalpost shift there, but "head of the US government" isn't relevant to this discussion. Task Force X is an intelligence organization and she is the head.


And you get to those levels by being an effective politician. Which she is. Hell we see it in the movie, she's more concerned about looking good at a golf game with an elected official than with the mission.

She's smart enough to know you need both - political resources and the intelligence to run an intelligence organization.
The golf thing happened while they were radio silent, short of flying down there herself she needed to wait until they established contact. All the intel they had gathered (there it is again) on the team at that point was that the bombs were still connected.


We are not supposed to think that Amanda Waller is personally clever or competent (she screws up repeatedly, not checking whether the team can swim on a water insertion, not recognising Bloodsport's reaction to Sebastian when introducing Ratcatcher), we are supposed to think that she is the face of a callous, ruthless organisation that is so large and powerful it does not need to be either.

You mean she didn't care whether the decoy team that was not supposed to survive insertion could survive insertion? Almost as if they were... a decoy team? :smallconfused:
And Bloodsport himself explains why she didn't know about his phobia if you had paid attention to the movie.


Like what's Batman going to do if he disapproves? Declare war on the United States? Get rid of Waller and another manager starts doing the exact same job.

He certainly seemed to think he could do something judging by his threat.

[comicshorse]

Like what's Batman going to do if he disapproves? Declare war on the United States? Get rid of Waller and another manager starts doing the exact same job.


Yes but it won't be Waller. And that's most of what she cares about.

[Dragonus45]

I'll point out the decoy team was presumably supposed to fair much much better, they had some absolute heavy hitters involved and if they had gone in then it would also help with the issue of how Squad 2 was supposed to be sneaky. Much easier to do that when you have a big ol distraction.

[GloatingSwine]

Nice goalpost shift there, but "head of the US government" isn't relevant to this discussion. Task Force X is an intelligence organization and she is the head.

Task Force X is a deniable black ops unit. It is not an intelligence organisation. Think Navy Seals not CIA. And lots of people have been put in charge of governmental and even military organisations without having actual competence. (There's an interesting book on the subject, The Psychology of Military Incompetence)


She's smart enough to know you need both - political resources and the intelligence to run an intelligence organization.
The golf thing happened while they were radio silent, short of flying down there herself she needed to wait until they established contact. All the intel they had gathered (there it is again) on the team at that point was that the bombs were still connected.

Again, Task Force X is part of a larger thing. They're not this separate hived off entity that does all their own work, the intel they get comes from all the US' many TLAs, because they're just an arm of the US government with all the interconnection that implies.


And Bloodsport himself explains why she didn't know about his phobia if you had paid attention to the movie.

He displays his phobic behaviour in her presence. She's not paying attention because she's not actually a perceptive and clever individual.


He certainly seemed to think he could do something judging by his threat.

That's because he's a crazy person solves problems by punching them and doesn't recognise the idea of large structural solutions to structural problems. Otherwise he wouldn't be Batman, because Bruce Wayne solves Batman problems way better than Batman does.

[Tyndmyr]

That power was based on knowledge. She knew about his daughter and their strained relationship before she came to visit him for the first time, knew the details of her crime, and knew what strings to pull to not only get her tried as an adult but assigned to the same prison as him if convicted. Those aren't trivial manipulations.

And again, she has at her hands technology that can suppress metahumans, which I don't think we've seen in the DCEU as of yet. Remember that before this, her only leash on Enchantress was having her heart in her possession. That could come in handy even beyond TSS.

Those are more impressive manipulations if they're done by some loner. Someone working for the government in some capacity, with an entire department of underlings(both movies had this), it's...not at all impressive. She had an underling search a criminals criminal history, wooo. As for the rest, that's pretty much just talking to judge/prosecutor. Even if true. It could have been lies. It's not as if Waller has any compunction about the truth.

None of the above makes her particularly smart. It just means she's in a position of some power, and has no ethical restraint.

She's not any more smart than Gen. Ross is portrayed in the MCU.



You mean she didn't care whether the decoy team that was not supposed to survive insertion could survive insertion? Almost as if they were... a decoy team? :smallconfused:

Even from the standpoint of a decoy, someone who drowns before the enemy even knows they're there is a pretty useless decoy.

It's most definitely a point against competency.

I don't think team A was a decoy, though. Flagg is actually loyal for....some reason, and it would be sort of dumb to intentionally sacrifice him. Plus, given the orders to extract him, it does not seem likely that his death was intentional. I find it more likely that she simply cared more about success that *any* lives on either team, and tossed two teams at it just to boost the odds of success no matter who died. If team B died off entirely and team A was successful, she'd have been equally happy.

[Ramza00]

I don't think team A was a decoy, though. Flagg is actually loyal for....some reason, and it would be sort of dumb to intentionally sacrifice him. Plus, given the orders to extract him, it does not seem likely that his death was intentional. I find it more likely that she simply cared more about success that *any* lives on either team, and tossed two teams at it just to boost the odds of success no matter who died. If team B died off entirely and team A was successful, she'd have been equally happy.

In the last 5 years Flag is more independent and goes rogue. Such as he does when he rescues Harley even though that is a mission delay.

Waller would not like this even if she may tolerate it many times. My point here is she is a mess of competing drives (like all humans) and will be willing to sacrifice Flag in a moments whim if she feels she can not control him. Likely she will tolerate these discretions if she feels like she can control him. Waller has an insatiable need for control, a Thanatos drive (also called Todestrieb aka death drive) , she severely dislikes disorder she can not control. She uses agents of chaos, in order to have power and order. But even in this “controlled” chaos we see patterns of aggression, dominance, repetition, compulsion, and lastly self-destructiveness.

Waller in this movie (and in some comics not all comics) does the compulsion and self-destructiveness at a moment of tension. Will she push the button and blow up her chaotic agent when they challenge her authority? For maximum stakes and tension we have to have the suicide soldier say something that makes sense. Like they are following a goal she laid out, or the goal does not make sense due to new information, or the greater good. We the audience with 2nd person information, notice the irony and the tension with this control. Yet Waller can push the button at any time and calls irrevocable change despite the contradiction and thus the tension.

And how the director, writers, and other creatives took care of this is with a 3rd option and thus a surprise. Waller could push the button, or not push the button when she had a stare down with the suicide soldiers, but there was a 3rd option of the people in Waller’s room hitting her with a golf club for they too have agency. This in turn surprises the audience for if the tension is working we do not reconsider the possibilities for we are emotionally aroused and tunnel vision, instead of surveying other options we did not consider before.

—————

So to repeat Waller consider eliminating Flag for he is not reliable, yet she never considered if the people in her own room whether they were reliable or not. For she was the master of her own domain and is her own nemesis.

[Psyren]

Task Force X is a deniable black ops unit. It is not an intelligence organisation. Think Navy Seals not CIA.

So Waller's crew of IT neckbeards tapping into satellite feeds to spy on a foreign power without being detected were Navy Seals?



He displays his phobic behaviour in her presence. She's not paying attention because she's not actually a perceptive and clever individual.

"I'm not shaking the rat's hand" is hardly evidence of a debilitating obstacle.



That's because he's a crazy person solves problems by punching them and doesn't recognise the idea of large structural solutions to structural problems. Otherwise he wouldn't be Batman, because Bruce Wayne solves Batman problems way better than Batman does.

It was Bruce Wayne that threatened her.

[Giggling Ghast]

People are talking past each other for we are doing binary gradients. It is like saying there is "Mind-Body" dualism (a cartesian myth), and then trying to apply that logic to The Hulk. Is Bruce Banner a separate personality, a separate person from The Hulk? How about the other incarnations of The Hulk and Bruce through his comic history? Using a Mind-Body duality, and the limits of language and you get this.

-----

Waller has over 500+ appearances in comics over the years in her 35 year comic history. Not all of these appearances are "continuous" belonging to alternative realities, else worlds, etc.

But even in the same reality, even with different writers, and also with the same writer and in different story she has been written differently. Her being written as not-clever (but smarter than the average human), who uses force, and the powers of the system is a common way she has been written and it lead to disastrous results of her own making (Waller is her own Nemesis) in the late 80s / early 90s of the comics. Likewise in other stories she is hyper-competent for that is what the story needed as a foil, or the writer just like those aesthetics.

The Writer, Director, and other creative team of this specific movie wrote a Waller that is true to previous incarnations, while at the same time telling their own story with themes, meaning, etc. Waller did what she did for she cares about different things than you. :smalltongue: Waller cares about her terf and only that thing.

Well said, though I think you meant “turf” and not “TERF.”

[Ramza00]

Well said, though I think you meant “turf” and not “TERF.”

Laughs, yes!

[Tyrant]

I assume that Team A was supposed to be a distraction, but not necessarily all wiped out in one moment on the beach. Basically be the loud distraction while Team B is also to get in and do the job. Or, provide more options to make sure the job gets done. Either way, I think all of them getting wasted at the start was a fluke and not part of the plan.

[Ranxerox]

I don't think team A was a decoy, though. Flagg is actually loyal for....some reason, and it would be sort of dumb to intentionally sacrifice him. Plus, given the orders to extract him, it does not seem likely that his death was intentional. I find it more likely that she simply cared more about success that *any* lives on either team, and tossed two teams at it just to boost the odds of success no matter who died. If team B died off entirely and team A was successful, she'd have been equally happy.

As I said elsewhere on the internet.

Personally, I don't think she really cared about rescuing Flagg. All the members that were left over from the first movie's mission were put in the distraction team, and I don't think that was a coincidence. I think that she was still angry at them for going off script in the first movie and was cleaning house.

The reason the team was assigned to rescue Flagg with "extreme prejudice" is because Waller wanted to cripple the rebels. Previously, Corto Maltese had a government that was willing to take orders from the US, and I believe Waller wished to go back to that arrangement. Since the rebels if they took power would not be compliant, Waller wanted to leave them in no position to make a successful bid for power. In preparation for this mission she would have been watching Corto Maltese with her infrared camera spy satellites and would have known where all the major government and rebel bases were. Seeing that Flagg had been taken to the main rebel camp, Waller saw an opportunity to take out the rebel leadership and a good portion of their most loyal forces.

However, Flagg acted to stop the main team from killing the rebel commander and pointed out that when the armed forces got pulled from the palace would be the perfect time for the rebels to attack. This ruined whatever Ms Waller had been planning for Corto Maltese. Also, these actions plus Flagg efforts to save the hard drive so it could given to the press, fully vindicated Amanda Waller's original decision to put him in the sacrificial team in the first place.

[Psyren]

Speaking of Team A getting wiped out, Nando had a suggestion to amp up the Starro fight that I found very interesting. Basically it plays into the main strength of Starro from the comics, that he's turning hero against hero. (Or "hero" in this case.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikmWG_ED46A

[Zalabim]

Seen the suggestion, and it would be fun, but it also requires

More runtime
Establishing additional abilities for Starro
Changing earlier parts of the movie that are already good
Making Starro more overtly aggressive


Personally, I would be fine with Captain Boomerang returning again, because that can be his real superpower. He always comes back.

[lowfyr]

That's because he's a crazy person solves problems by punching them and doesn't recognise the idea of large structural solutions to structural problems. Otherwise he wouldn't be Batman, because Bruce Wayne solves Batman problems way better than Batman does.

He wouldn't stop Waller with punching. If an opponent thinks Batman is not more than that he already has won. Batman would get her starting with throwing his influence behind it that he has with both of his roles.
Being usally one of the smartest persons in the room and planning ahead are what makes him so dangerous.
He is called "World's greatest detective" for a reason.

[Psyren]

Pitch meeting is out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G74et7XEz2M


Seen the suggestion, and it would be fun, but it also requires

More runtime
Establishing additional abilities for Starro
Changing earlier parts of the movie that are already good
Making Starro more overtly aggressive


Personally, I would be fine with Captain Boomerang returning again, because that can be his real superpower. He always comes back.

I wouldn't call it additional - his stars animate corpses, this is well established in the film. You can even still have the opening scene be gory and over the top - one of Starro's reanimated thralls in the Thinker's lab is a corpse that's been cut in half after all.

I would say it'd require Starro being smarter rather than just more aggressive. Threat #1 for him should be folks (metahumans) who resisted star implantation and are capable of mowing down his mooks.

I'm fine with the movie as-is though. Not #1 DC but good.

[Starbuck_II]

Seen the suggestion, and it would be fun, but it also requires

More runtime
Establishing additional abilities for Starro
Changing earlier parts of the movie that are already good
Making Starro more overtly aggressive


Personally, I would be fine with Captain Boomerang returning again, because that can be his real superpower. He always comes back.

I love the idea that Boomerang is a meta all along.

[Ramza00]

Turning the movie into a Zombie flick changes the themes of the movie. Of course if you do not like the themes of the movie you may see this as a net improvement. But other people liked the themes of the movie.

[Psyren]

Turning the movie into a Zombie flick changes the themes of the movie. Of course if you do not like the themes of the movie you may see this as a net improvement. But other people liked the themes of the movie.

"Zombie flick" isn't at all what Nando is proposing. He's trying to make it more of a Starro story. As it currently stands, you could swap Starro with any random DC kaiju (e.g. Titano, Chemo, Karaqan, Swamp Thing) and the overall story would've been the same. What makes Starro unique was underutilized here.

[Ramza00]

"Zombie flick" isn't at all what Nando is proposing. He's trying to make it more of a Starro story. As it currently stands, you could swap Starro with any random DC kaiju (e.g. Titano, Chemo, Karaqan) and the overall story would've been the same. What makes Starro unique was underutilized here.

True. But the people who have never read a comic in their life, who do not know who Starro is would see it as a Zombie flick :smalltongue:

Dead bodies populated by an alien hive mind, where small bullets can not stop said Dead Bodies from moving and you thus have to use big bullets or flamethrowers is a Zombie flick. Even if it is not literally an "essentialist" view of Zombie flick, there are enough tropes that the image is summoned in the person mind if they are unfamiliar with Starro for they have limited information, and thus they fill the colors between the line with what they are familar with.

-----

Not saying a Zombie* Starro movie (*not literally a Zombie movie) would not be fun, but that is not what the Director, Writers, and so on wanted for it would be a different movie.

[Trafalgar]

Wasn't the city in the first suicide squad filled with people who had their minds controlled by the Enchantress? Wouldn't that be another repeat?

[Starbuck_II]

Wasn't the city in the first suicide squad filled with people who had their minds controlled by the Enchantress? Wouldn't that be another repeat?

Wow, they basically rebooted it.

[Tyndmyr]

Wasn't the city in the first suicide squad filled with people who had their minds controlled by the Enchantress? Wouldn't that be another repeat?

Yeah, pretty much. Focusing too much on the mindslaved minions would definitely risk feeling samey. Probably why Starro mostly got the focus, that and a giant starfish definitely fits the sort of bonkers tone better than staying grounded would.

[Psyren]

True. But the people who have never read a comic in their life, who do not know who Starro is would see it as a Zombie flick :smalltongue:

Dead bodies populated by an alien hive mind, where small bullets can not stop said Dead Bodies from moving and you thus have to use big bullets or flamethrowers is a Zombie flick.

Still not quite getting it - the hook of a Starro story is not sending waves of disposable shambling hordes at the good guys. As pointed out, that would be a repeat of what Enchantress did already.

Rather, it's turning half the Justice League against the other half, (https://img.cinemablend.com/filter:scale/quill/1/c/6/7/8/8/1c67889411ada44e98b75db53f3f59cd4a8d3001.jpg?mw=60 0) or the JL against the Titans etc., getting access to all their powers in the process. And given that we already have a handy (dead) Suicide Squad Team A for Starro to use against the B team, that creates a pretty engaging final fight - one that doesn't necessarily rely on several kilotons of rat ex machina. And even people who "have never read a comic in their life" are down for some (anti)hero vs. (anti)hero action.

You could even establish that, hey, the starfishes can regenerate their hosts to an extent (starfishes grow their limbs back after all), just in case you wanted to resurrect Cpt Boomerang for the third one of these.

In any event, it's a moot point, we got the movie we got, but I still feel when you could put literally any big monster in Starro's place and achieve the same effect that it was a bit of a missed opportunity.

[Ramza00]

It would be a Zombie movie for we as audience, psychologically stop treating the dead Suicide Squad people as fully human anymore for they are dead and are now meat-puppets. It is one of the things about being human, we have to de-sensitize ourselves to gruesome violence, especially if it is close range, so seeing other humans as chimera like monsters (human but not human, simultaneously) helps us do that. Thus things that previously unsettle us can be mindless fun for we flip the absence / presence switch in our brain and we see the monsters as "disposable."

Seeing live humans being mind-controlled by Starro does a different thing, but it too is flipping that chimera like switch in our brains. Note this previous line also applies to one of the things that movies do when we set a movie in something we see as an outsider culture, something we associate as "orient" as in Foreign (not literally The East) and is common in movies set in Africa, Latin America, South East Asia, and so on with the protagonists being the US imperial power. I wish The Suicide Squad examined this more but also understand why it didn't for you have a limited time and you can only do so many monsters as themes and thus the movie focused on Waller and Staller as the monster, with the Coup Planners, and The Thinker, and the previous president (always dead) being the secondary monsters.

Adding another layer of how we dehumanize anything we see as outsiders is too much for a 2 hour and 17 minute movie, too much themes and characters. And that is what I am arguing, adding another layer where you fight Staro Zombies (whether regular people or Team A with The Suicide Squad) is trying to cram another thing in a movie that is very crammed full already.

We are not trying to make Return of the King here, sometimes less is more. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I'm fine with disposable baddies, I'm just saying the last movie already did it and that's not really supposed to be Starro's thing.

But for what it was it was... fine.

[Giggling Ghast]

Related question but kinda not: is it really a zombie flick if the “zombies” are not eating flesh? I don’t consider Army of Darkness to be a zombie movie, even though it is filled with undead who want to swallow people’s souls.

[Ramza00]

Related question but kinda not: is it really a zombie flick if the “zombies” are not eating flesh?

The metaphysics of zombies was not what I was trying to say (though it is a good conversation.) I am saying that zombie film language is so prevalent elant that starting the film language even if you subvert it takes ones attention away from your other themes, meaning, film language you are trying to focus on. By starting A and B even if you do not go the full ABC you are hijacking the mind of the viewer and setting up expectations.

———

As for your question, I will argue if it is a ban of normal people you need eating flesh to spread the infection to be a zombie movie. That or a substitute form of gruesome. But the more you put a military force or some other thing coded as order and or bureaucracy than you just need an “infection” imagery, infection imagery that spreads in an out of control fashion.

If The Joker in The Dark Knight convinced one boat to blow up the other boat then we would have a Zombie movie, for the pathos was contagious, it was not just a pathogen but a runaway experience where pathogen caused 1st generation and 2nd generation mindless chaotic zombies. While the fear gas in Batman Begins is not a Zombie movie for the fear is localized to one neighborhood and direct exposure to the gas. In sum a mob where people created the uncontrolled movement of a mob and people trampling onto each other is enough to feel “zombie like” in our minds and create the panic and horror in our meat sac brains.

[Zevox]

I went and saw this with some friends last night. I enjoyed it, but honestly, not as much as I thought I would. I don't know, maybe I'd had unrealistic expectations since the two Guardians of the Galaxy films are some of my favorite Marvel (and thus superhero in general) movies, and this being directed by the same guy and the trailers seeming to show a similar sense of humor I was expecting it to be more like those. But I also went in thinking it was likely to displace Wonder Woman and Shazam as my favorite DC film, at the minimum, which is a lower bar, and I don't think it did that. Slides in just behind them among DC films for me, sure, but it also doesn't have much competition other than those two anyway.

The humor definitely had its moments, but was overall kind of hit or miss to me. And I have to say, I was shocked by how gory it was. I mean yeah, I knew it was R-rated, but I didn't think that meant it was going to be doing so many Mortal Kombat fatalities all the time. I think that's part of what hurt it with me, honestly, that level of gore doesn't quite click with some of the rest of the tone for me. To the point where at first coming out of it I thought it might just be that an R-rated but goofy, comedic superhero movie just doesn't quite work, but then I remembered that the Deadpool movies exist, and were definitely better than this one as well. So no, it's just how it was handled in this one in particular that didn't fully work for me.

Standout characters were Bloodsport, Ratcatcher 2, and Harley - probably unsurprisingly since they're the ones who get much of the focus. Some of Harley's moments were probably the best parts of the film (killing Luna, and her escape sequence - I like to think all those silly special effects towards the end of it are supposed to be what she's actually seeing as she commits all that wanton violence), and Bloodsport and Ratcatcher 2's relationship was done well. And Ratcatcher's little pet was legitimately kind of adorable at times, which seems like it should be harder to pull off with a rat.

King Shark and Polka Dot Man had their moments, but I was expecting to like them more. I'm surprised there was basically no payoff to Ratcatcher's little friendship pledge to King Shark near the start that everyone else told her off for. It seems like they just kind of forgot to do anything with him besides the occasional generic "he's the big, childlike brute character" moments. And Polka Dot Man, well, was kind of one note, with his hatred for and delusions of seeing his mother. That one note works a couple of times, sure, but I feel like he should have had something besides just that. Though it was nice to have that moment of him acknowledging Melvin, the regular guy that tagged along with them for so long, and being the one guy who cared that he'd been killed.

Peacemaker was the least likable member of the main cast (unless you count Amanda Waller, maybe) by far, and I'm left astonished that he's the one getting his own spin-off show from this. Who would want to watch that? I was happy when Bloodsport seemed to have killed him, personally, and kind of baffled by the stinger revealing that he somehow survived. Both because I can't imagine how he survived, and because I can't imagine why they wanted him to.

Flag was completely forgettable, to the point where he's the one whose name I have trouble remembering, and it honestly feels like his only real contribution was causing the conflict with Peacemaker at the end. Which would be fine enough, since like I said, I was happy to see Peacemaker get killed, but then they just went "psyche, no he didn't" like that, so what the hell?

Also, I would've thought that Starro there as a final villain for the film would be played more goofy than he was. He's a giant space Starfish, for crying out loud, why was he played completely straight in a film with so much silly comedy going on? The fight sequence with him was kind of meh too. Everybody basically just takes one shot at him in sequence: Bloodsport really only gets his attention, King Shark just annoys him a bit before being tossed aside, Polk Dot Man legitimately hurts him but is then immediately killed, and then finally Ratcatcher 2 and Harley's attacks actually defeat him. And don't get me wrong, the way they defeated him was fun, but it's just that the fight as a whole ends up feeling pretty meh when so little happens before that.
So, yeah, simultaneously liked it, and yet was disappointed by it, which is an odd experience.

[Giggling Ghast]

And to think, *some people* were {Scrubbed} about how The Suicide Squad” wasn’t that violent” a couple pages back. :smalltongue:

Anyways, Gunn is an old Troma alum, so it’s not too shocking he’d ramp up the blood and guts when given the freedom to do so. The only reason he’d not doing so with the GotG is because it’s a Disney property.

[Precure]

Best post-2001 DC movie so far.

[Psyren]

Peacemaker was the least likable member of the main cast (unless you count Amanda Waller, maybe) by far, and I'm left astonished that he's the one getting his own spin-off show from this. Who would want to watch that?

I think you might be underestimating John Cena's pull here. He's not quite The Rock, but easily on par with Dave Bautista for a solo outing I'd say.

And in TSS specifically he was comedy gold - most TSS meme templates I've seen involve him in some way:

"He does exactly what I do!" "But better."
"I hit them more in the center."
"Millennials."
"Unless what they're showing off is dope as ****." "***! That's true!"
"Forgot the rat."
"Because I'm thorough."

[GloatingSwine]

John Cena is in that sweet spot where he's a reasonable name but he isn't too expensive yet to hire him for a whole TV series.

[tomandtish]

John Cena is in that sweet spot where he's a reasonable name but he isn't too expensive yet to hire him for a whole TV series.

Very true.

I've watched it again, and (at the risk of heresy) this is actually now my favorite of the DC films. It's a nice blend of action, comedy, and "seriousness" while at the same time not taking itself too seriously.

Cena and Elba play off each other nicely.

Incidentally, both James Gunn and Nathan Fillion commented during the live rewatch they did that....

Technically the last we know of TDK he's still alive. He hadn't been X'd out on the monitors.

[Psyren]

Wonder Woman (the first one) is still on top for me, and I haven't seen Shazam yet, but this is definitely above the rest.

Marvel is still head and shoulders above but it's nice to see DC not floundering quite as badly. That will probably last right up until they give Superman and Batman another try but hey.

[Zevox]

I think you might be underestimating John Cena's pull here. He's not quite The Rock, but easily on par with Dave Bautista for a solo outing I'd say.

And in TSS specifically he was comedy gold - most TSS meme templates I've seen involve him in some way:

"He does exactly what I do!" "But better."
"I hit them more in the center."
"Millennials."
"Unless what they're showing off is dope as ****." "***! That's true!"
"Forgot the rat."
"Because I'm thorough."
I know nothing about John Cena or memes. My thoughts on the matter are based solely on the character I saw in the movie, who was a pretty thoroughly unlikable person, probably the only member of the team who didn't have any redeeming qualities. And the last thing we saw him doing certainly didn't do him any favors there. And honestly, I don't even agree about him being particularly funny in the film - the only quote you gave that I got something of a laugh out of what "Unless what they're showing off...", and I wouldn't think of that as one of the funnier moments in the film personally (most of those were Harley's, IMO). Though like I said, the humor in the film on the whole was rather hit or miss with me.


Wonder Woman (the first one) is still on top for me, and I haven't seen Shazam yet, but this is definitely above the rest.

Marvel is still head and shoulders above but it's nice to see DC not floundering quite as badly. That will probably last right up until they give Superman and Batman another try but hey.
Agreed on the former (Wonder Woman and Shazam are a tie for first for me), though I'm not so sure I'd say DC isn't floundering just yet. I mean, I guess having more decent films than not if we look only at their post-Justice League ones is an improvement from before, but it's still mostly Shazam raising their batting average in that group. Suicide Squad's good-ish, and Aquaman is decent; but then you've also got Wonder Woman 1984, which I found disappointing and plenty of others have far harsher words for, and Birds of Prey, which I did not see but have not heard many positive things about, and unless I'm misinformed fared poorly financially. I mean, compared to pre-Justice League, where Wonder Woman is basically the only film that wasn't, at a minimum, controversial, that's a definite improvement, but that's also a low bar to meet.

[Fyraltari]

Just saw that movie, it's an improvement over its predecessor on basically every front.
It's fun, it genuinely kept me guessing about who the final vilain was going to be and managed to surprise me and make me laugh when it wanted to. The characters are much better handled too, and all the actors were very goodfor their roles. The opening twist was ballsy and wonderful too.

A few criticisms, though.

The fact that "Corto Maltese" is an island nation in the DCU will never not be weird to me. And the fact that the tone of that comic does not fit that movie at all caused me some whiplash.

I understand not giving Peter Capaldi any Spanish lines even though his character is supposed to be a native speaker. But for the scene in Portugal with two Portuguese characters whose only speaking scene it is, couldn't they have it in Portuguese?

Kinda wish they stuck with their guns and had Peacemaker show no hesitation in carrying his orders out. It was also surprising that Flag was surprised to learn about his government's involvement in the experiment. Really naive for a black operation man. Also a bit miffed that once again, all surviving members of the team decided to do the right thing, damn the consequences. Some supervillains, they are.

Oh, and it's really obvious Bloodsport is basically Deadshot II, but with an older daughter.

[Precure]

Wait, Thinker is a native? I thought he came to the island for the research?

[Fyraltari]

Wait, Thinker is a native? I thought he came to the island for the research?

I'm not sure. I thought he was a native but I guess with the reveal that Starfish was a joint USA-Corto Maltese project it does raise the odds of him being a foreigner.

[GloatingSwine]

Oh, and it's really obvious Bloodsport is basically Deadshot II, but with an older daughter.

Sort of.

One of the issues with the first movie is that Will Smith can't not be Will Smith. Like can you imagine the scene with Bloodsport and his daughter screaming "**** you!" at each other with Will Smith?

[Aedilred]

Headline is that I thought this was the first DCEU movie I've seen that can really hold its head up in the company of the Marvel films. There is a caveat there that I haven't seen Aquaman or Shazam which seem to have been the best-received DCEU movies to date, but still. It seems unfair to blight TSS with the legacy of its predecessor, but like it or not that's the space it occupies and will probably be unfairly financially damned for it. But it was striking how so many of the obvious missteps of the first were avoided either largely or completely in this one, to the extent that it's hard not to conclude that James Gunn made a point of correcting them.

There was at times still a little too much overreliance on dialogue for my liking but the clunky exposition of the first is gone. The key information we need to know is rattled through without the need for extensive backstory, flashbacks, etc. I am not as big a devotee of Viola Davis as some, but if what I had originally taken as woodenness for a cold, calculating mien on the part of Amanda Waller, it works. What does not work is having that character deliver the bulk of exposition in a deadpan monotone, as the first one did. Here, though, exposition is delivered as rapidly as possible by a variety of means, and often through at least some variation on showing rather than telling. Polka-Dot Man's powers aren't dwelt on in dialogue: we get a sense that maybe he "throws polka dots" but then we see them under his skin (without comment), the "shedding" is half-seen, but we don't have a clear idea on how it works until we see him in action. When Waller was deployed for expositionary purposes, it was broken up with commentary from more interesting characters. It was fine.

As to show-don't-tell generally, well, wow. The opening scene with Savant and the ball establishes that these are not traditional heroes. The whole opening sequence demonstrates that these characters are inherently disposable to their masters. And it also does a great job of establishing tone. There is going to be graphic violence. Major characters are going to die horribly. It's also going to be completely ridiculous. It's funny, and it's also horrifying. That's there from the outset and it remains almost throughout.

Then there's the sexualisation of the female characters. Cara Delevigne in the first film was reduced to writhing around in a bikini for half of it. The contrast with Ratcatcher here is marked. I haven't had a close look at her costume but even superficially, the fact that it shows virtually no skin, and there is no hint of a romantic relationship for her at all, is a marked contrast. Harley... I guess it's always going to be difficult not to sexualise Harley, but one of the key things is that she retains agency throughout. She might wear a pretty dress and get a sex scene but she's pretty much always in control of her situation. Indeed the (human) character who shows us the most flesh is male (with the gratuitousness of that being commented on).

And this also has confidence in its own IP in a way the first one didn't. The version of the Joker in the first movie was so bad that it's distracted from the biggest problem with it: that there was no need to have the Joker in that film at all. You could put Heath Ledger's or Jack Nicholson's or Mark Hamill's Joker in Suicide Squad and it still wouldn't work because he serves no discernable purpose in the movie other than to slam the brakes on. There is some character development for Harley resulting from his failed rescue of her but, again as TSS demonstrates, you don't need him to be actually present in the film to develop Harley as a character. The first film also had the Batman and Flash cameos: again, no need for that here. The film doesn't need established characters to work if it's good enough on its own merits. Yes, this one has returnees, but it doesn't rely on them, and there aren't any gratuitous cameos just to remind us that this is a tie-in to other properties. We're given a set of largely obscure no-name characters and expected to identify with them on their own terms, which we do.

Not that the above is an exhaustive list of everything that was wrong with the first one because that list would go on for ages. The general aimlessness of the plot, the overlength and general boringness, the lazy characterisation, all of that is improved in the sequel.

None of which should really surprise us, because James Gunn made Guardians of the Galaxy work, and there was no particular reason that Suicide Squad shouldn't have worked except for what as far as I can tell was interference and an attempt to produce by committee.

So onto criticisms, I guess. I still have some quibbles about exposition through dialogue and a lack of faith in visual representation. Take the competition between Bloodsport and Peacemaker as they're clearing out the camp, and Peacemaker makes his shot which Bloodsport comments on, Peacemaker says he's using explosive rounds, etc. Why not simply cut those lines? Have Bloodsport turn to him with a raised eyebrow or a smirk, Peacemaker stare back, the guy explode, and straight to "nobody likes a show-off"? The dialogue is a crutch. Maybe it's just a lack of confidence in the audience. The finale runs a bit long. Waller's insistence that they walk away doesn't make a huge amount of plot sense except to the extent that she's a control freak, but really it's just there to add tension.

One thing I will say is that the movie perhaps did too good a job of making its characters sympathetic. Ratcatcher and PDM felt like victims more than villains. Bloodsport is a pretty classic antihero, as is Harley in this presentation. Nanaue is so inhuman that conventional notions of morality just don't apply. Rick Flag is a genuine hero. Only Peacemaker of the main squad comes across as a legitimate bad guy. If the movie's premise is villains being coerced into heroics, the film could do a bit more to present these guys as villains. Instead, the worst villain on the team is fairly unambiguously Waller, not just for the underlying motives etc. but because the very act of setting up the Squad and coercing some of these characters into it is in itself worse than anything we see them do.

But very little of this is unique to this among superhero movies, which are in themselves a somewhat formulaic genre now. That doesnt meant that we shouldn't expect better but given that we can take these as read, it does suggest I'm scratching around for things to criticise.

Overall, I very much enjoyed it. It's not the best superhero movie I've ever seen, but I'd say it's quite a bit better than average.




Wait, Thinker is a native? I thought he came to the island for the research?

Given that he spoke with a Scottish accent throughout and all other Corto Maltese characters had Hispanic accents, it seems likely he was not a native.

[Precure]

Given that he spoke with a Scottish accent throughout and all other Corto Maltese characters had Hispanic accents, it seems likely he was not a native.

Yeah, I assumed he's a british scientist working for americans, there is nothing Indicates that he's a native, which is why I'm surprised.

[GloatingSwine]

If the movie's premise is villains being coerced into heroics, the film could do a bit more to present these guys as villains. Instead, the worst villain on the team is fairly unambiguously Waller, not just for the underlying motives etc. but because the very act of setting up the Squad and coercing some of these characters into it is in itself worse than anything we see them do.

That's because the latter was actually the movie's premise.

There's a giant zombifying starfish kaiju and Amanda Waller and the attitude to US foreign policy she represents is still supposed to be the biggest monster in the movie.

[Aedilred]

That's because the latter was actually the movie's premise.

There's a giant zombifying starfish kaiju and Amanda Waller and the attitude to US foreign policy she represents is still supposed to be the biggest monster in the movie.

That's fine, but given what I had understood to be the purported premise, it would be nice if that were something that was a slow realisation or twist of sorts rather than being glaringly obvious from very early on.

Really, on the hero-villain/morality scale, and putting Peacemaker aside, is there any daylight between this incarnation of the Suicide Squad and the Guardians of the Galaxy? Especially the Guardians in their first movie?

[Ramza00]

That's fine, but given what I had understood to be the purported premise, it would be nice if that were something that was a slow realisation or twist of sorts rather than being glaringly obvious from very early on.

Really, on the hero-villain/morality scale, and putting Peacemaker aside, is there any daylight between this incarnation of the Suicide Squad and the Guardians of the Galaxy? Especially the Guardians in their first movie?

There are lots of differences I am not going to talk about in more detail due to rules of this board about politics and real world history. If you want an idea Graphic Policy Radio just did a good podcast episode on said subject.

[Precure]

Really, on the hero-villain/morality scale, and putting Peacemaker aside, is there any daylight between this incarnation of the Suicide Squad and the Guardians of the Galaxy? Especially the Guardians in their first movie?

Well, guardians were also criminals and arrested for it, but the authority figures in that movie (Xandar and Nova corps) were good aligned.

[Aedilred]

There are lots of differences I am not going to talk about in more detail due to rules of this board about politics and real world history. If you want an idea Graphic Policy Radio just did a good podcast episode on said subject.
Alas, I'm essentially allergic to podcasts, but oh well.


Well, guardians were also criminals and arrested for it, but the authority figures in that movie (Xandar and Nova corps) were good aligned.

But the Kyln authorities weren't - and that's where Nova sent them...

Of the Guardians, Rocket and Quill are mercenaries, bounty hunters, thieves. They're not particularly malevolent but don't have much of a conscience about hurting people or stealing from even close friends; Rocket has a notable sadistic streak. The first Groot's motivations aren't clear but he is, at best, Rocket's accessory. The second Groot has probably committed fewer crimes because he only joined up with Rocket after the heel-face turn, but has been shown to be wantonly violent and display no compunction about killing or mutilation.

Gamora is a mass murderer/war criminal who is attempting to make amends in some way or other. It's not entirely clear what it was that landed Drax in the Kyln but a history of extreme violence seems a safe bet. Of the later additions to the team, Nebula has done everything Gamora has but (pre-Infinity War) even once switching sides is primarily motivated by revenge rather than atonement. Yondu is no less morally chequered than Quill, with the addition of child trafficking, and it's safe to scale up the number of crimes committed. Mantis is probably the most blameless of the team (apart from Baby Groot) but she still colluded with Ego's slaughter of his children for a long time, even under sufferance.

They are, in short, fairly classic antiheroes: they're heroes because they do heroic things like save the galaxy/universe but their methods, motives, and characters in general are decidedly shady. They display the virtue of loyalty to each other but friendship isn't a heroic trait in and of itself, and while they tend to do the right thing in the end, there is usually a self-serving element to it.

Pan across to the Suicide Squad. From what we see in the movie, Bloodsport is a mercenary who has performed some shady jobs in the past, but has also seemingly served with honour in the military. His killing contest with Peacemaker was callous, but (considering he had specifically been told that these were bad guys) no more so than Yondu and Rocket's rampage in Guardians 2.

Nanaue appears to have significantly less self-awareness and agency than Groot. It's not clear what crimes Ratcatcher and PDM have committed but it's hard to believe that she was much more than a thief, and that any crimes he committed were anything other than accidental.

The more I look at it the more the majority of the Squad look considerably less villainous and more sympathetic, at least in terms of history and motivation, than the Guardians.

[Fyraltari]

It's not clear what crimes Ratcatcher [has] committed.

She states it at one point: armed robberry. The "arm" was her rats. Given that Waller threatens Bloodsport with manipulating the justice system to get his daughter detained in Belle Reve on exaggerated charges, it's fair to assume this is what happened to Ratcatcher.

[BRC]

The more I look at it the more the majority of the Squad look considerably less villainous and more sympathetic, at least in terms of history and motivation, than the Guardians.

I mean, part of it is that we're introduced to these character as Victims. We don't get to know them as free people making bad decisions, and in doing so finding themselves in Waller's crosshairs. We meet them in prison, with bombs in their heads, forced to do Waller's bidding.

We're informed that they're Villains, but their villainy isn't onscreen. It's barely even described, it's just part of the premise that the Suicide Squad is made up of supervillains.

It would probably be different if we'd had a couple years of Comic Books showing Bloodsport fighting Superman by putting kryptonite bomb vests on random civillians and throwing them off skyscrapers so he could shoot Superman when he flew by to catch them.

[Precure]

Something I found funny about not exactly for this movie but Suicide Squad idea itself:


The deformed mutants and odd-ball psychotics will have their place in my Legions of Terror. However before I send them out on important covert missions that require tact and subtlety, I will first see if there is anyone else equally qualified who would attract less attention.

[Psyren]

I know nothing about John Cena or memes. My thoughts on the matter are based solely on the character I saw in the movie, who was a pretty thoroughly unlikable person, probably the only member of the team who didn't have any redeeming qualities. And the last thing we saw him doing certainly didn't do him any favors there. And honestly, I don't even agree about him being particularly funny in the film - the only quote you gave that I got something of a laugh out of what "Unless what they're showing off...", and I wouldn't think of that as one of the funnier moments in the film personally (most of those were Harley's, IMO). Though like I said, the humor in the film on the whole was rather hit or miss with me.

You'll just have to trust me then. And if the end credits scene is any indication, the filmmakers are more in alignment with my viewpoint.



Agreed on the former (Wonder Woman and Shazam are a tie for first for me), though I'm not so sure I'd say DC isn't floundering just yet. I mean, I guess having more decent films than not if we look only at their post-Justice League ones is an improvement from before, but it's still mostly Shazam raising their batting average in that group. Suicide Squad's good-ish, and Aquaman is decent; but then you've also got Wonder Woman 1984, which I found disappointing and plenty of others have far harsher words for, and Birds of Prey, which I did not see but have not heard many positive things about, and unless I'm misinformed fared poorly financially. I mean, compared to pre-Justice League, where Wonder Woman is basically the only film that wasn't, at a minimum, controversial, that's a definite improvement, but that's also a low bar to meet.

Yeah I think they're on an upward trajectory all things considered. It'll be interesting if and when they rope in RDJ for something.

With that said they still don't really have anything in the way of direction. My guess is that sometime after Flashpoint, they'll kick off Elseworlds so that they have their own idea lab similar to What If, and use that to figure out what people want. I'm still firmly in the camp that their heroes just aren't as grounded/relatable and therefore they have more of an uphill battle.

[Zevox]

With that said they still don't really have anything in the way of direction. My guess is that sometime after Flashpoint, they'll kick off Elseworlds so that they have their own idea lab similar to What If, and use that to figure out what people want. I'm still firmly in the camp that their heroes just aren't as grounded/relatable and therefore they have more of an uphill battle.
:smallconfused: Have they announced that they're doing a Flashpoint film? *googles a bit* ...huh, so when the Flash gets a film, it'll be loosely inspired by that. Okay, maybe an odd choice, considering what (admittedly little) I know of how that went over in the comics, but oh well, I can't argue that they could do with rebooting their attempts at a film franchise at this point if that's where they go with that. And I don't know about the Elseworlds/What If thing, I haven't been watching the Marvel Netflix series to know what you're talking about there.

On that last though, I don't think that's really the issue. I don't know that there's any way to boil down what they're doing wrong to an one or even handful of things, personally, but I will say that I wish they'd ditch the desire to have a much darker tone to their films than Marvel does. Or at least confine that to particular films where it makes more sense, like Suicide Squad. Because even their non-Snyder films tend to have some of that creep into them, like some of the villain's actions in Shazam, which is otherwise one of their more upbeat films.

[Psyren]

Yeah, Flashpoint was originally going to be used as a reboot. But given Loki's popularity, I have no doubt DC is going to take the opportunity to use it and lean into multiverse shenanigans of their own. (We're kind of already there given that The Suicide Squad follows from the original while also referencing events we haven't seen anywhere, like Bloodsport putting Superman in the hospital.)

As for the tone - it's kind of ironic because, aside from leaning into the gore and some black comedy stuff like Polka Dot Man's mom, The Suicide Squad isn't dark at all and critics and audiences alike appear to love it. (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_suicide_squad) But The Batman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLOp_6uPccQ) meanwhile looks dark as all get-out, so they just can't seem to help themselves.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aedilred
Mantis is probably the most blameless of the team (apart from Baby Groot) but she still colluded with Ego's slaughter of his children for a long time, even under sufferance.

I think this is a bit severe. There was absolutely nothing Mantis could have done to save Ego’s offspring, apart from warning them. Ego kept her alive and captive simply to deal with the side effects of his humanoid form; she had no choice in the matter and certainly can’t be blamed for anything Ego did.

[Aedilred]

I think this is a bit severe. There was absolutely nothing Mantis could have done to save Ego’s offspring, apart from warning them. Ego kept her alive and captive simply to deal with the side effects of his humanoid form; she had no choice in the matter and certainly can’t be blamed for anything Ego did.

I don't hold it against her too much, but at some point I think she has to bear some responsibility for her role in the previous murders. She might not have had any power to stop the killings but she could have refused to cooperate, or warned the victims. Continuing to act as a cog in a machine you know is evil isn't great, even if you're not the one pulling the levers. I guess the defence is that she was basically a slave and that refusing to cooperate might well have come at the cost of her own life, which has some weight, but it's still not entirely satisfactory. It's not exactly a "just following orders" deal but it's in the same ballpark.

We could take the view that she was waiting until someone came along who was powerful enough to stop Ego, and that would shed another light on things, but there isn't really an indication that this was her motivation for telling Drax. What enabled the Guardians to defeat Ego was Peter's ability to harness Ego's energy, and the near-simultaneous arrival of Rocket and the Ravagers with a vessel capable of reaching Ego's core - and she wasn't aware of any of that when she chose to warn Drax. She seemed to tell him because she liked him, probably because he was the first person to engage with her in that way - which is heartwarming, but at the same time means that she was prepared on some level to risk everything by telling some random shmuck the truth despite lack of meaningful ability to stop it, but elected not to on any of the previous occasions.

I do think she's probably the most sympathetic and least blameworthy of the Guardians, but she did still spend an unspecified but reasonably lengthy period of time enabling an individual who was trying to destroy the universe and did murder a large number of his own children.

[millersd]

Didn't see a current thread for it, so here goes.

Overall an enjoyable movie. It relies more on humor than the first one, and the serious moments aren't as serious. It's a good popcorn film. King Shark and Rat Catcher 2 are probably the best two characters, but all of the squad interacts well for the most part.

Now for some more serious discussion.

For those wondering about the huge number of squad members, about half are a "decoy" operation and get taken out in an ambush in the first 15 minutes. The actual Squad is 5 members (joined later by Flagg and Harley who survive the ambush).

Interestingly, Flagg and Harley are assigned to the decoy operation, which appears doomed from the start. Waller even refuses to let Flagg withdraw when they are obviously blown. While Waller wanting Harley dead isn't a surprise, she must really be ticked at Flagg since she's very willing to sacrifice him as well.

These two develop an obvious Father/Daughter relationship. The interaction between them is very heartwarming (esp. since Bloodsport appears to get over his fear of rats at the end).

Imagine someone who loves (or claims to love) America just as much as Captain America, but is the world's biggest phallus-head. That's Peacemaker. "I love peace. And I'll kill every man, woman, and child to get it". He's obviously going to become a bad guy at some point. Interesting that he's apparently getting his own series.

Again, overall a nice enjoyable popcorn movie. Not going to win any Oscars (other than technical ones), but certainly worth watching.
Yes, this is an enjoyable movie but to me, it can be a more interesting movie if the suspension would be more. overall I like it also.

[Psyren]

I don't hold it against her too much, but at some point I think she has to bear some responsibility for her role in the previous murders. She might not have had any power to stop the killings but she could have refused to cooperate, or warned the victims. Continuing to act as a cog in a machine you know is evil isn't great, even if you're not the one pulling the levers. I guess the defence is that she was basically a slave and that refusing to cooperate might well have come at the cost of her own life, which has some weight, but it's still not entirely satisfactory. It's not exactly a "just following orders" deal but it's in the same ballpark.

We could take the view that she was waiting until someone came along who was powerful enough to stop Ego, and that would shed another light on things, but there isn't really an indication that this was her motivation for telling Drax. What enabled the Guardians to defeat Ego was Peter's ability to harness Ego's energy, and the near-simultaneous arrival of Rocket and the Ravagers with a vessel capable of reaching Ego's core - and she wasn't aware of any of that when she chose to warn Drax. She seemed to tell him because she liked him, probably because he was the first person to engage with her in that way - which is heartwarming, but at the same time means that she was prepared on some level to risk everything by telling some random shmuck the truth despite lack of meaningful ability to stop it, but elected not to on any of the previous occasions.

I do think she's probably the most sympathetic and least blameworthy of the Guardians, but she did still spend an unspecified but reasonably lengthy period of time enabling an individual who was trying to destroy the universe and did murder a large number of his own children.

I think it's a bit of a leap to assume that the Guardians are the first group she ever tried to warn in any way. We don't know much about Ego's other children, but we do know that none of them had any Celestial powers until Quill, so they would have stood no chance against him.

[PontificatusRex]

Just caught the film at my local art house/second run theater. I really enjoyed it, as did my 15 year old son. We went in knowing there would be an insane level of violence and gore up to live action Warner Brothers Cartoon levels of absurdity so it wasn't too jarring, though a bit of it did have me going "Really?"

I liked how they set the audience up in the decoy, giving us the idea that Savant was going to be a main POV character and then killing almost everyone. Let us know right away how brutal this was going to be - though I was very sorry to see Captain Boomerang go, he was my favorite from the actual comics.

I really like everyone from the main team - hard not to crush out on Ratcatcher. Loved the office rebellion. I really appreciated the low-key demonstrations of friendship between Flagg and Harley. Also Starro's last line - it was really just an innocent creature floating in space turned into a monster by humans in this iteration.

I really, really would love to see a Justice League/Suicide Squad film. Especially the inevitable "fight before they team up" part (though with so many of the Squad dead it wouldn't be quite as fun). I really dig the idea of the vastly overpowered League being matched by the shear crazy fierceness and brutality of the squad - like I imagined Garth Ennis's The Boys would be, before it turned out he was cheating and the Boys had superpowers as well.