Padlock that forgoes melee attacks & smites? How well does it work?

[Merudo]

I've recently read about an interesting variant (https://tabletopbuilds.com/why-you-should-play-undead-warlock/) of the Paladin / Warlock multiclass.

The build goes Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer X, and mostly/totally forgoes melee attack & smites, instead relying on Eldritch Blast for most of its damage. It is intended to play a support role in a party rich in spellcasters and ranged martials.

The resulting Padlock does not rush to engage enemies in melee. Instead of leaving their long range allies behind, they instead sit back near their caster & archer friends, protecting them with their auras and attacking from afar.

To contribute damage, the build relies on Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast. The repelling blast pushes enemies out of melee range, giving the party some breathing room. Thanks to its sorcerer levels, the Padlock can quicken an Eldritch Blast to double the DPR & repel effect, or cast simply cast a leveled spell.

The Warlock patron can either be Hexblade for the curse (extra dpr), or go Undead for the added control through the fear effect.

Of course, if the Padlock has decent strength or is an hexblade, melee attacks are always an option, but the idea is to make it a priority to keep allies in the paladin auras.

I'm curious what people think of the concept. It seems to sacrifice significant DPR in exchange for greater control, increased party defense and lessen vulnerably against flying enemies.

[Gtdead]

This is something that I like to do with Paladins, although I haven't yet played one myself. One of my ideas for a strong party is a caster that concentrates on a strong damaging spell (SG, Sickening Radiance, w/e), and Paladin sitting next to him providing CON saves and protecting him.

My build was more melee centric, with PAM for AoOs against targets that go near the caster, with 2 levels of warlock for EB to take care of ranged characters that can stay outside of the effect. The reason I prefer my build to the one you suggested is because that way the Paladin can have uninterrupted progression up to lvl 6 and then specialize. Otherwise he becomes an EB bot up to level 8, but both would be valid in that particular role.

Paladin with EB works surprisingly well even without that tactic. It's basically a ranged character with a strong attack on a steed. A lot of kiting potential and even with a 16 STR and no feats, it's not like he can't kill stuff in melee if need be.

[quindraco]

I've recently read about an interesting variant (https://tabletopbuilds.com/why-you-should-play-undead-warlock/) of the Paladin / Warlock multiclass.

The build goes Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer X, and mostly/totally forgoes melee attack & smites, instead relying on Eldritch Blast for most of its damage. It is intended to play a support role in a party rich in spellcasters and ranged martials.

The resulting Padlock does not rush to engage enemies in melee. Instead of leaving their long range allies behind, they instead sit back near their caster & archer friends, protecting them with their auras and attacking from afar.

To contribute damage, the build relies on Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast. The repelling blast pushes enemies out of melee range, giving the party some breathing room. Thanks to its sorcerer levels, the Padlock can quicken an Eldritch Blast to double the DPR & repel effect, or cast simply cast a leveled spell.

The Warlock patron can either be Hexblade for the curse (extra dpr), or go Undead for the added control through the fear effect.

Of course, if the Padlock has decent strength or is an hexblade, melee attacks are always an option, but the idea is to make it a priority to keep allies in the paladin auras.

I'm curious what people think of the concept. It seems to sacrifice significant DPR in exchange for greater control, increased party defense and lessen vulnerably against flying enemies.

If no-one in the party builds for melee, everyone in the party will inevitably be in melee. Someone needs some mechanism for holding down the front line. There are many ways to do that, including minionmancy, but if the spellcasters in the party don't invest in frontlining and everyone else is a ranged martial, building into Eldritch Blast will exacerbate the problem.

[Corran]

The resulting Padlock does not rush to engage enemies in melee. Instead of leaving their long range allies behind, they instead sit back near their caster & archer friends, protecting them with their auras and attacking from afar.
And if the enemies engage you all, and your allies are not good at escaping or as well rounded as you, then you dish out some combination of smiting and twinned polymorph/ hold monster/ banishement/ spirit guardians/ careful debuff AoE, depending on what works for your group, on your build choices, and on the urgnecy of the situation. Moreover whenever you find a chockepoint you can make it your own (enlarge, enhance ability, bardic inspiration, etc coming from allies appreciated).

[MaxWilson]

I've recently read about an interesting variant (https://tabletopbuilds.com/why-you-should-play-undead-warlock/) of the Paladin / Warlock multiclass.

The build goes Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer X, and mostly/totally forgoes melee attack & smites, instead relying on Eldritch Blast for most of its damage. It is intended to play a support role in a party rich in spellcasters and ranged martials.

The resulting Padlock does not rush to engage enemies in melee. Instead of leaving their long range allies behind, they instead sit back near their caster & archer friends, protecting them with their auras and attacking from afar.

To contribute damage, the build relies on Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast. The repelling blast pushes enemies out of melee range, giving the party some breathing room. Thanks to its sorcerer levels, the Padlock can quicken an Eldritch Blast to double the DPR & repel effect, or cast simply cast a leveled spell.

The Warlock patron can either be Hexblade for the curse (extra dpr), or go Undead for the added control through the fear effect.

Of course, if the Padlock has decent strength or is an hexblade, melee attacks are always an option, but the idea is to make it a priority to keep allies in the paladin auras.

I'm curious what people think of the concept. It seems to sacrifice significant DPR in exchange for greater control, increased party defense and lessen vulnerably against flying enemies.

...I thought that was how everyone already did paladorcs/padlocks/paladorlocks. AC 21 from plate + shield + defense is for protection, but not being in melee is still better protection.

That being said, sometimes you do still wind up in melee, and it's great to have a member of the party who has AC 21+ and is in melee, and IME that padlock is still the best guy to grapple enemies, to Dodge and fill a chokepoint or whatever, and especially in Tiers 1-2 there's not that much extra damage that you get out of Eldritch Blast vs. melee attacks anyway (ergo melee attacks are fine, and also ergo you can delay your warlock 2 level until level 11ish if you want).

I don't necessarily think it's a priority to keep allies in the paladin's aura though, since dispersing is often safer than assuming Fireball Formation, even if there's an aura available. It depends.

Anyway, what you describe is a bog-standard way of playing a padlock as far as I am concerned, and would be the standard playstyle for Lyrandar warlock/padlock mentioned in my .sig.

P.S. You're not giving up anything important by forgoing smites, since smites are typically a poor use of spell slots anyway.


If no-one in the party builds for melee, everyone in the party will inevitably be in melee. Someone needs some mechanism for holding down the front line. There are many ways to do that, including minionmancy, but if the spellcasters in the party don't invest in frontlining and everyone else is a ranged martial, building into Eldritch Blast will exacerbate the problem.

I have not found it to be true in practice that someone will wind up in melee, but it still is convenient to have someone who is willing and relatively eager to kick down doors and stick his head down holes to get it whacked off, i.e. who doesn't mind being only 5' away from monsters. (This is a matter not just of builds but also of PC personality--and Paladins are a good candidate to be the confident, yet fatalistic type who will actually do this.)

Early on in 5E's history I DMed for a group of three PCs, Shadow Monk, Bardlock, and Necrolock. They were fine without a tank, and yet when a paladin joined the group and started being the guy who would take point and grapple the giant ants while Dodging, it did make things notably easier on the other PCs. Conclusion: it may not be necessary, but it's nice to have a dedicated tank instead of having to skirmish all the time.

[OldTrees1]

A Paladin that forgoes attacks? That can work splendidly.

I played a Paladin 2X-1 / Warlock X.

It would have been sufficient if I only did my Inspiring Speeches, Auras of Protection/Warding, and healing. The Warlock spell slots really made it easy to use Aura of Vitality.


...

Oh, you are asking about a Paladin that uses Eldritch Blast instead. Yes, Eldritch Blast is fine. Paladin / Warlocks will often find Eldritch Blast eventually better than Extra Attack. (Something about that Hex spell.)

[ProsecutorGodot]

When we face swarms in our Mad Mage campaign my Redemption Paladin adopts this strategy to keep our Sorcerer safe, minus repelling blast as I have a shield that helps repel close enemies.

It's a fairly common strategy in my experience, it works well.

[mmcgeach]

It seems like you could drop the six levels of Paladin. Or: six levels is a long way to go just for the saving throw aura. Will you be using any of the other Paladin class features?

[Mitchellnotes]

I might suggest conquest 7, warlock (undead or hex) 5 then go wherever for lots of fear spells and the conquest aura. Takes longer than going paladin 9 to pick up fear, but you get a lot more of them! The lower level paladin slots are good for things like shield/hex etc. Probably not worth doing overall, but has some synergy

[Guy Lombard-O]

The build goes Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer X, and mostly/totally forgoes melee attack & smites, instead relying on Eldritch Blast for most of its damage. It is intended to play a support role in a party rich in spellcasters and ranged martials.

The resulting Padlock does not rush to engage enemies in melee. Instead of leaving their long range allies behind, they instead sit back near their caster & archer friends, protecting them with their auras and attacking from afar.

Played a Hexblade 2/Ancients X. The Ancients aura works extremely well at shielding the party from spell damage when combined with the higher-Cha 6th level aura that hexadins can afford. Then buff it to the next level by making Bless your concentration spell, adding additional protection to the other casters' concentration checks, plus upping the party DPR by helping everyone hit.

If you want to branch off into sorcerer at some point, I'd suggest going to paladin 8 so you get that ASI, taking Res Con if you're already at 20 Cha by then (plus, even levels for multiclass caster levels).

[Witty Username]

What would the path be here:
Paladin 1 - Warlock 1-2 - Paladin 2-6-Sorcerer 1-12?
I take it you want the heavy armor and eldritch blast up as soon as possible. then Aura of protection, then full casting class for more casting.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It seems like you could drop the six levels of Paladin. Or: six levels is a long way to go just for the saving throw aura. Will you be using any of the other Paladin class features?

Heavy armor proficiency, lay on hands, larger hit die and extra attack rather than thirsting blade for when you do need a melee weapon.

It is a pretty deep investment, but Paladin is loaded with high quality features and spells, I can't think of any Paladin level from 1 to 6 that doesn't have something meaningful.

[Merudo]

...I thought that was how everyone already did paladorcs/padlocks/paladorlocks.

[...]

Anyway, what you describe is a bog-standard way of playing a padlock as far as I am concerned, and would be the standard playstyle for Lyrandar warlock/padlock mentioned in my .sig.


Are you saying most people don't use a melee weapon or smite when playing a paladin multiclass?



P.S. You're not giving up anything important by forgoing smites, since smites are typically a poor use of spell slots anyway.


I thought Smites were an excellent way to nova against a tough boss-style enemy. Assuming the paladin is already concentrating on a spell, what else are you going to use the spell slots for?

[Merudo]

It seems like you could drop the six levels of Paladin. Or: six levels is a long way to go just for the saving throw aura. Will you be using any of the other Paladin class features?

That's a fair question. The saving throw aura is amazing but if smites (& therefore extra attack) are pointless, then it's basically all you have to show for a 6 level investment. Going Sorcerer with a single dip in a class with medium/heavy armor looks more and more like an overall better decision.


Heavy armor proficiency, lay on hands, larger hit die and extra attack rather than thirsting blade for when you do need a melee weapon.


Heavy armor proficiency can be gotten from Cleric 1, Paladin 2 or Fighter 1/2, and it's really only a +1 AC compared to the Hexblade's medium armor.

The larger hit +1/+2 hp per level doesn't really matter - a single casting of Armor of Agathys or Aid largely compensate for it.

If you are not using smites, then Booming Blade & Green-Flame Blade are roughly as good as Extra Attack starting level 11+.

[Merudo]

Played a Hexblade 2/Ancients X. The Ancients aura works extremely well at shielding the party from spell damage when combined with the higher-Cha 6th level aura that hexadins can afford.

I think people dramatically overestimate how useful the Aura of Warding is.

There are not that many enemies that rely on spells as they main offense, and of those, fewer still rely on damage spells.

Damage spells also scale awful poorly. Fireball is a real threat when you start facing it, but a few levels later it's a drop in the bucket.

The Aura of Warding is okay at level 7-10 when you occasionally face CR4-9 spellcasters that use Fireball / Cone of Cold as they main shtick (Flameskull, Hobgoblin Devastator, Mage, Evoker, etc). However for the bulk of the game, it is an unused feature, or one that has very limited impact.

[Gtdead]

Are you saying most people don't use a melee weapon or smite when playing a paladin multiclass?

I thought Smites were an excellent way to nova against a tough boss-style enemy. Assuming the paladin is already concentrating on a spell, what else are you going to use the spell slots for?

My experience with Sorcadin is that the build starts as a heavy frontliner and gradually transitions to full caster. I saw no point in getting PAM or rushing to level 6 because I was so far away from the backline, intercepting enemies, that Aura wouldn't matter much. If the party is melee heavy it may be worthwhile to do it, I wouldn't know but my gut says that Sorcadin isn't very good in melee heavy parties.

The basic playstyle at lvl 5 was Web if needed -> Firebolt spam -> Intercept melee enemies, and against powerful monsters Blur -> Intercept -> BB with quicken. I generally avoided smiting unless I knew it was the last fight of the day or I rolled a crit for the fun factor. In retrospect, I think that a Dragon's Breath + Dodge + Warcaster play for BB AoO would be really good, perhaps better than Blur + Quickens, but it costs an extra feat. Not the worst sacrifice though because Sorcadin has some problems with free hand and CON save advantage is always nice.

This Padlock build you presented is a sorlock in disguise. It makes sense to totally forgo melee/smiting (it's not the most efficient use of spell slots, it's only good for nova) and since it's ranged, it can stay beside casters and provide the Aura. This build will eventually get quicken, and who in their right mind would prefer to smite over quickening an EB.

I like the build of Warlock 2/Paladin X a bit more, which is pretty much a full Paladin that dips to cover an obvious weakness, the lack of reliable ranged damage. I don't think it makes sense to not go full melee with it.

[follacchioso]

It's a good build, but I would rather invest the six levels in pure Warlock.

That would grant me a Summon Undead, which could be a skeleton form to double my ranged damage output, or one of the melee forms to keep the enemies busy.

It would also grant me the Grave Touched form, for extra damage, and more spells and invocations.

[MaxWilson]

Are you saying most people don't use a melee weapon or smite when playing a paladin multiclass?

Not exactly but close. I am saying that "if you take a level of sorcerer you can Fire Bolt while still having AC 21 and relying only on Charisma" is pretty much the first thing I thought of when considering paladin builds, back in 2014 or so, and in my local metagame, not relying on a melee weapon is still common. That doesn't mean you don't use a melee weapon when it's appropriate, such as while grappling an enemy (bash them with your shield for d4+STR) or when you want maximum Smite damage (dual shortswords = 3 smites per turn; it may be telling that while I've seen paladins prepare for this eventuality by carrying dual shortswords, I don't think I've ever seen it used). But you don't spend any extra build resources on making your melee weapon better.


I thought Smites were an excellent way to nova against a tough boss-style enemy. Assuming the paladin is already concentrating on a spell, what else are you going to use the spell slots for?

Healing spells after combat, defensive or control spells in this or the next combat. Given the choice between spending 9 SP on three 2nd level smites for 40ish damage, or spending 2-4 SP on Absorb Elements and/or Wrathful Smite or Command to disable an enemy, smiting is only going to be the right answer in a minority of cases such as when the party is caught in Fireball Formation against e.g. a Young White Dragon or Mind Flayer. And while mistakes do happen and parties do get caught out of position, it's not something that you want to be doing a lot because it means either the party is making a lot of mistakes or you're using it in a lot of inappropriate situations.

But this may also be influenced by my DMing style--I try to build adventures such that there are always stretch goals, so that people who use their spells efficiently will always walk away from the table having accomplished more and gotten more XP than people who nova'ed everything away in the first couple of fights and had to forego the stretch goals. If your DM gives you a "boss battle" with an implicit or explicit promise that these three rounds of combat will be the last of the adventure, I can see how that would change things.


That's a fair question. The saving throw aura is amazing but if smites (& therefore extra attack) are pointless, then it's basically all you have to show for a 6 level investment. Going Sorcerer with a single dip in a class with medium/heavy armor looks more and more like an overall better decision.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Ignoring smites does not make Extra Attack useless.

Extra Attack makes grapple + prone twice as effective, and synergizes well with Hex. It's a cheap way to disable a big monster.

You also get some neat spells, like Wrathful Smite, Command, Shield of Faith, Find Steed, and Bless.

[LordShade]

It's a good build, but I would rather invest the six levels in pure Warlock.

That would grant me a Summon Undead, which could be a skeleton form to double my ranged damage output, or one of the melee forms to keep the enemies busy.

It would also grant me the Grave Touched form, for extra damage, and more spells and invocations.

Is this spell good? I thought the consensus was that the Tasha's summons are merely decent, and not always worth the Concentration.

[MaxWilson]

Is this spell good? I thought the consensus was that the Tasha's summons are merely decent, and not always worth the Concentration.

It's decent-to-good, as you say. In some ways it's like a Fear spell with a tank built in for good measure.

I think the key point the other poster was making is that they'd rather have 3rd level spells than Aura of Protection + Extra Attack + 2nd level Paladin spells.

[Merudo]

It's a good build, but I would rather invest the six levels in pure Warlock.

That would grant me a Summon Undead, which could be a skeleton form to double my ranged damage output, or one of the melee forms to keep the enemies busy.

It would also grant me the Grave Touched form, for extra damage, and more spells and invocations.


Is this spell good? I thought the consensus was that the Tasha's summons are merely decent, and not always worth the Concentration.

They are pretty good actually, especially when cast as a level 4 spell.

Sure, they don't quite compare to Conjure Animals, but then again not much does.

If you look at the DPR increase, the summons are pretty close to what Haste / Improved Invisibility, or a upcasted Shadow Blade, would get you.

The difference is that Tasha's summons last a whole hour. You are also free to spend your action & bonus actions on other stuff and still get the DPR increase.

Among the summons, Summon Undead stands out due to its fantastic utility. You can use the undead spirit as a long range archer skeleton, as a incorporeal ghost scout that can cause the fear condition twice per turn, or as a putrid ghoul that can turn the poisoned condition into paralysis. It does not hurt that the undead spirit is immune to necrotic & poison damage, and to the exhaustion, frightened, paralyzed, and poisoned conditions.