Great Weapon Master Monk build

[Sepok]

I’ve been watching Treantmonk’s series where he is rating all the 5e subclasses. I just watched his video rating Monk subclasses, and boy was he brutal...the best Monk subclass got a “D” rank. So I was trying to think of a way to build a monk that would NOT be a sub-par damage dealer that was squishy to boot. I wanted the character to be mainly monk, with as little multi-classing as possible to get the features needed for it work. I did some google searching for other kinds of out-of-the-box Monk builds, but they all seems focused on trying to do grappling for some reason. So I think this is a new idea. Here’s my Great Weapon Master Monk build...

Race:

Variant Human or Custom Lineage - to get Great Weapon Master at level 1
Lizard Folk or Minotaur - to have better Flurry of Blows (detailed later)

First level: Starting as one of these classes for martial weapons and armour proficiencies. Other abilities are secondary, each has its own strengths/weaknesses.

Barbarian - get rage, but no heavy armor, aim for a 14 DEX
Cleric (War) - get spells and a few bonus action weapon attacks
Fighter - get a fighting style

- Unarmed Fighting if v-human/custom lineage
- Defense (+1 AC in armor) or Great Weapon Fighting(re-roll 1’s & 2’s)

Second level and higher: all Monk levels until 12, then maybe more multi-classing.

Monk sub-class choice, main benefits:

Mercy - Hand of Healing for self heals, and later upgrades to Hand of Healing
Long Death - get temp HP(WIS mod + Monk level) on reducing enemy to 0 hp, level 11(spend 1 Ki to be reduced to 1 hp instead of 0)

For stats, it’s a bit MAD. You’ll want STR highest, CON next, with a DEX/WIS of 13, dump INT/CHA. I’m not going to do a detailed stat breakdown, but with the race combos this should be doable. This guy will be running around in heavy armor and wielding a greatsword/greataxe/maul/polearm.

WHAT IS LOST?

But, you’re thinking, his Monk abilities won’t work with that stuff equipped! Well, there is actually very little that is lost...
Unarmored Defense

It doesn’t work, but you’re wearing med/heavy armor, so no big deal.
Martial Arts

This is prevented from any armor or a non-monk weapon. But what is really lost?

- DEX for attacks with monk weapons or unarmed, but you are going STR anyway, so no loss.
- Replacing your unarmed attack damage with your Martial Arts die. Your wielding a giant can-opener, who cares?

- It hurts a little when using Flurry of Blows since you will only do 1+STR bonus. But taking Lizardfolk/Minotaur or the Unarmed Fighting fighting style will give you a 1d6+STR with these attacks.
- Bonus Action giving 1 unarmed attack...this hurts a little bit, but not too much.
Unarmored Movement

This does hurt a bit, but the playstyle is getting stuck in as a GWM. Plus you can still use Dash as a bonus action with Step of the Wind if you need extra movement.

WHAT STILL WORKS?
Flurry of Blows

- You can still spend 1 Ki to get 2 unarmed attacks. Nothing in the ability lists any limitation for armor or weapons.
- Your damage will only be 1+STR mod, since you can’t use your martial arts die to replace the damage.

- This is where Lizardfolk and Minotaur come it, they have racial unarmed attacks at 1d6 that you can use. or you could choose the new Unarmed Fighting combat style on a v-human/custom lineage character.

- So at level 5 Monk (6 overall) you can attack twice with a Greatsword, spend a Ki and attack twice more for 1d6+STR.
Patient Defense - Still works - 1 Ki to Dodge as a bonus action
Step of the Wind - Still works - 1 Ki to Disengage or Dash as a bonus action
Deflect Missiles - You can still Deflect when wielding a 2-H weapon, but you can’t catch it and throw it back without a free hand.
Slow Fall - still works
Stunning Strike - still works, only requires a “melee weapon attack”.
Evasion - still works

- A 2 level Barbarian dip for advantage on DEX saves helps here for the lower DEX of this build.
- All other base Monk abilities from the PHB still work.


So how is this better than a Fighter with Great Weapon Master?
Well, I wouldn’t say better, just different, but competitive, I think. Let’s compare to a Battlemaster fighter. (From my experience, Battlemaster is often the go to choice for a GWM because of Precision Strike.) For the Monk I will assume the initial dip is in fighter. Let’s go with this build at level 8.

AC/base weapon damage/saving throws are the same: Both have the same armor, weapon, and choice of a fighting style, and save proficiencies


Fighter 8:

Hit point advantage of 1/level (d10 vs d8)
+1 extra ASI for the fighter, so probably better STR or CON
Action Surge
Second Wind (better on pure fighter)
Fighter subclass abilities:Battlemaster

5 BM maneuvers, 5 superiority dice/short rest
Let’s assume Precision Strike, Riposte, and Brace for 3 of the maneuvers, as they are good for hitting(Precision) or extra attacks.

Fighter 1/Monk 7:

7 Ki/short rest

- up to 7 Stunning Strikes, or 7 Flurry of Blows, or 7 “Focused Aim” to hit bonuses
Flurry of Blows(ki)
Patient Defense(ki)
Step of the Wind(ki)
Deflect Missiles(deflect only, no ki)
Stunning Strike(ki)
Evasion
New from Tasha’s;

- Quickened healing(2 ki) - 1d6+PB healing (I think the cost is too high.)
- Focused Aim - 1-3 Ki, add +2 to hit per Ki to a missed attack roll. Very good for GWM -5/+10 attempts.
Stillness of Mind
Monk subclass abilities
Long Death (better on ki usage, but you have to land killing blows)

- Touch of Death (7+WIS mod temp hp when dropping an enemy to 0hp)
- Hour of Reaping (30’ AoE fear for 1 round)
Mercy

- Hand of Healing/Harm

- Healing: Can use 1 healing on self as part of a Flurry of Blows (1d6+WIS mod) and remove condition(Physician’s Touch).
- Harm - some extra damage for 1 Ki (not useful), but could also apply Poisoned condition for 1 round (no save)
- Physician’s Touch - remove conditions


I think that the Monk chassis has a lot to offer a GWM fighter build. The ki scales a lot faster than BM superiority dice. At higher levels you have over twice the resources of a battlemaster.

Ftr 15(BM) - maxes at 6 dice at 15
Ftr 1/Monk14 has 14 Ki
Ftr 3(BM)/Monk 12 has 4 dice and 12 Ki

For another 2 level of Fighter, you can be a BM and get both sets of abilities and add in Action Surge to boot.

The fighter does get a 3rd attack at 11, but the Monk would either get:

Long Death - Mastery of Death - spend 1 ki to only go to 1 hp instead of 0
Mercy - Flurry of Healing or Harm

During a Flurry, replace both attacks with healing (1d6+WIS mod)
During a Flurry, apply 1 Hand of Harm without having to spend Ki (1d6+WIS mod and poisoned condition)

Weaknesses:

MADness - You’ll want a 16 STR, 14 CON, and 13 DEX/WIS for multiclassing into Monk.
You do lose some abilites due to the armor and weapon choices.
You’l have some weak mental saves with both INT and CHA dumped, and not being proficent in WIS saves.

Starting as a War Cleric would give you CHA saves to shore up that save a bit, but you would lack a fighting style until you could take a fighter level.
Stunning Strike DC will be low.

Strengths:

Some good nova ability on priority targets if you are willing to spend Ki.

Attack action and Flurry to get 4 attacks and then 4 tries to land a stunning strike (2-5 ki). Next round go to town with GWM -5/+10 and another flurry.
Good versatility
Survivability in the front line

Every GWM is used to being a pincushion, Deflect missiles helps with this a lot.
A bonus action Dodge when needed can save you.
Evasion for ½ or none DEX saves helps a lot too for a GWM.
Good multi-classing synergy with minor dips in barbarian, fighter, or cleric(war).

Barbarian 1-2 - rage, advantage on DEX saves (great with Evasion)
Fighter 1-3 - get to 3 for Battlemaster maneuvers
Cleric(war) 1-2 - for Bonus action attacks and the +10 to hit channel divinity


Please, let me know what you think of this build.

[verbatim]

If you want to run a strength monk going a race that has natural armor that doesn't key off of dex (tortle or loxodon) enables you to retain the benefits that you would normally lose by wearing armor.

[Gtdead]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how are you going to get advantage or some boost to hit chance in order to make something out of GWM. Fighter has BM or Samurai so it's worthwhile. Paladin has bless and vengeance subclass. I don't see how your monk is going to leverage GWM, because without advantage or something to boost the hit chance, it's really not that hot, and it certainly isn't worth all this investment.

How about you try with a shadow monk instead? Get blindfight from fighter and abuse darkness. Shadowstep will also help a lot with mobility. Although tbh I'd prefer to do something like that with SS instead of GWM. Makes much more sense due to monk's MADness. Dip fighter for archery, get devil's sight somehow and be an archer that can throw a stunning strike every now and then. Also your mobility with active darkness and shadowstep will be out of this world. CE has also some merit in this build, to allow you to become a melee character although it will conflict a lot with shadow step.

[Gignere]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how are you going to get advantage or some boost to hit chance in order to make something out of GWM. Fighter has BM or Samurai so it's worthwhile. Paladin has bless and vengeance subclass. I don't see how your monk is going to leverage GWM, because without advantage or something to boost the hit chance, it's really not that hot, and it certainly isn't worth all this investment.

How about you try with a shadow monk instead? Get blindfight from fighter and abuse darkness. Shadowstep will also help a lot with mobility. Although tbh I'd prefer to do something like that with SS instead of GWM. Makes much more sense due to monk's MADness. Dip fighter for archery, get devil's sight somehow and be an archer that can throw a stunning strike every now and then. Also your mobility with active darkness and shadowstep will be out of this world. CE has also some merit in this build, to allow you to become a melee character although it will conflict a lot with shadow step.

Stunning strike to get advantage. Once the target is stunned go nuts with the -5 / + 10.

[Gtdead]

Stunning strike to get advantage. Once the target is stunned go nuts with the -5 / + 10.

Without resource expenditure that keys of a 13 WIS stat. :p

[Gurgeh]

Also doesn't come online until 6th level - while the Battle Master who took Trip Attack gets to try imposing disadvantage from third level, has the save scale off their main damage stat, and still inflicts bonus damage even if the target passes the save (yes, superiority dice start off slightly less abundant than ki and end up significantly less so but at the levels we're looking at the availability is comparable)

[Witty Username]

You could mountain dwarf for medium armor and greatsword proficiency (assuming your cool with Tasha's). It may save you the Fighter level.

[Rukelnikov]

You could go for a Sharpshooter build, its widely accepted that ranged combat has many benefits over melee. The build could be something like this:

Vhuman Monk1

8
15(+1)
15
8
15(+1)
8

Feat: Sharpshooter (you won't be powerattacking for a while, but the ignore cover and long distance are very solid nonetheless)

Levels 1 and 2 you can use a Shortbow.
Level 3: Kensei, pick Longbow
Level 4: +2 Dex
Level 5: Focused Aim has 2 benefits, you can maybe start making use of SS's power attack, and more importantly, it enables Ki-Fueled Attack, meaning you can start making BA attacks
Level 6: Deft Strike. This is your high point, if you miss one attack by not much, you can use Focused Aim to turn it into a hit AND make a BA attack, instead if both your attacks hit, use Deft Strike to enable Ki-Fueled attack.

Here you have 2 paths, either take 2 levels in Ranger for Fighting Style and Hunter's Mark, or take 1 level in Fighter for FS, and at Monk 8 or 12 take Fey Touched, if you are gonna go this route, you could probably start as Ftr 1, with 16 in Con instead of Wis. IMO Ftr is better is you dont expect to go much past lvl 7 or 8, Ranger is better if you expect to go to lvl 10 or more, since you can have a concentration and Resilient 3 levels before, and Ranger also grants much more versatility in its first 2 levels compared to Ftr.

Thing with this build is, you can make a similar build with pretty much any martial, Fighter and Ranger are definitely better, Paladin is comparable, Barbarian maybe better at low levels but worse at very high levels (due to the abundance of Ki in late). The "half-martials" are all definitely better too (Battlesmith, Valor/Swords, Bladesinger and Bladelock) though they may "come online" a bit later as purely bow users.

[Unoriginal]

I’ve been watching Treantmonk’s series where he is rating all the 5e subclasses. I just watched his video rating Monk subclasses, and boy was he brutal...the best Monk subclass got a “D” rank. So I was trying to think of a way to build a monk that would NOT be a sub-par damage dealer that was squishy to boot.

[...]

Please, let me know what you think of this build.

Long story short, Treantmonk was completely wrong with this video. His reasoning is at best incoherent and at worst him starting with the conclusion he wants then trying to justify it.

If you want to build a Monk that is not a squishy sub-par damage dealer, build any Monk that isn't intentionally weak.

[Witty Username]

Long story short, Treantmonk was completely wrong with this video. His reasoning is at best incoherent and at worst him starting with the conclusion he wants then trying to justify it.

If you want to build a Monk that is not a squishy sub-par damage dealer, build any Monk that isn't intentionally weak.

I mean, as a monk you deal less damage, have less AC, and less HP then the other martials generally (your in line with rogue for HP and AC, and below ranger, barbarian, paladin and fighter). What is a squishy, sub-par damage dealer if not that?

[Rukelnikov]

Long story short, Treantmonk was completely wrong with this video. His reasoning is at best incoherent and at worst him starting with the conclusion he wants then trying to justify it.

If you want to build a Monk that is not a squishy sub-par damage dealer, build any Monk that isn't intentionally weak.

Tbh, I have to agree, his whole reasoning boiled down to "they are weak because they can't use GWM". While I agree monks can be rather weak in a direct confrontation (ie: trading attacks and nothing else), his arguments in the video weren't very solid.


I mean, as a monk you deal less damage, have less AC, and less HP then the other martials generally (your in line with rogue for HP and AC, and below ranger, barbarian, paladin and fighter). What is a squishy, sub-par damage dealer if not that?

The problem is, you shouldn't try to play them the same way as those classes, because those are not their strengths, playing the more like rogues ("skirmishers") is likely going to bring better results. Take Mobile ASAP, attack someone in melee and move away, if no one is in melee when you start your turn, use a ranged weapon and keep away as much as possible. The idea is, if they cant attack you and you can attack them, your low damage and AC doesn't matter. Rangeds can still eff you, but ranged combat is inherently OP in 5e, and at the very least you can use Deflect missiles to mitigate their damage.

[Witty Username]

Tbh, I have to agree, his whole reasoning boiled down to "they are weak because they can't use GWM". While I agree monks can be rather weak in a direct confrontation (ie: trading attacks and nothing else), his arguments in the video weren't very solid.
His reasoning, is they have difficulty using weapons, have AC and HP problems, and all of their abilities cost ki in combination with a small ki pool restrict their options more heavily than other martial characters, and their restrictions make multiclassing difficult. I would have to watch the video again but I don't remember him mentioning GWM once (not saying he didn't, I just don't remember).


The problem is, you shouldn't try to play them the same way as those classes, because those are not their strengths, playing the more like rogues ("skirmishers") is likely going to bring better results. Take Mobile ASAP, attack someone in melee and move away, if no one is in melee when you start your turn, use a ranged weapon and keep away as much as possible. The idea is, if they cant attack you and you can attack them, your low damage and AC doesn't matter. Rangeds can still eff you, but ranged combat is inherently OP in 5e, and at the very least you can use Deflect missiles to mitigate their damage.
I feel like you could do all that with a rogue, have an easier time because your kit plays better with ranged damage, you don't have to pay ki to use your movement options and your less MAD because you don't need a Wis bonus to keep your AC up, giving you more ASIs on things like mobile, along with extra skills to give you more options in and out of combat.

[Unoriginal]

IIRC Treantmonk's argument boils down to "Monks aren't casters and can't deal [damage Treantmonk has calculated a GWM Fighter to do against arbitrary factors], therefore they're bad."


I mean, as a monk you deal less damage, have less AC, and less HP then the other martials generally (your in line with rogue for HP and AC, and below ranger, barbarian, paladin and fighter). What is a squishy, sub-par damage dealer if not that?

First, you are incorrect. The typical Monk AC at minimum matches and more often than not surpasses the typical ACs of the Ranger, Barbarian and Rogue, as well as the AC for any DEX-based Fighter or Paladin. The only ones who beat a Monk in AC are STR-builds with shields. Furthermore while the Monk indeed doesn't have as nuch HPs as most other martials, they have a lot of danger-mitigating features.


Second, the Monk is not a straightforward class with an efficiency that can just be quickly calculated in a vacuum. A Monk is devastating when they are in the field, where they can use the right tool of their unique toolset to fit the circumstences. I've seen Monks outdamage and outlast the other martials more than once, in actual combats.

[Rukelnikov]

His reasoning, is they have difficulty using weapons, have AC and HP problems, and all of their abilities cost ki in combination with a small ki pool restrict their options more heavily than other martial characters, and their restrictions make multiclassing difficult. I would have to watch the video again but I don't remember him mentioning GWM once (not saying he didn't, I just don't remember).

He did mention the GWM thing at least once, and he said being a monk precludes you from using armor, when in truth it only disincentivizes you from it, since you lose access to martial arts. In contrast to a druid which actively precludes your from it. I agree its hard to dip monk, mainly because you need a lot of Ki, 2 BA dodge/sr doesnt sound so good for 2 levels.


I feel like you could do all that with a rogue, have an easier time because your kit plays better with ranged damage, you don't have to pay ki to use your movement options and your less MAD because you don't need a Wis bonus to keep your AC up, giving you more ASIs on things like mobile, along with extra skills to give you more options in and out of combat.

A rogue can be played in the same way (that's why I said play it more like a rogue), but the monk also has benefits, when you have an enemy in melee, you don't need an ally nearby to deal decent damage, and while rogues can dash as BA, you higher base movement as a monk means there are a lot of enemies whom you don't need to dash in order to outspeed. And if you cant move away, patient defense is costly but a very solid defense. I think both have their merits, and at high levels, monk is definitely better.

[Dork_Forge]

Been a while since his rating has come up here. What was the DPR benchmark this time?


The videos of his I've seen generally feel like opinions in search of reasoning, or that he might be caught up in previous editions rather than truly working within 5e. That may not be the case here, but I'd rather not watch what would probably be a rather long video to find out. Though having just written a comprehensive Monk guide, the highest rating being a D is ludricous.

[Witty Username]

IIRC Treantmonk's argument boils down to "Monks aren't casters and can't deal [damage Treantmonk has calculated a GWM Fighter to do against arbitrary factors], therefore they're bad."



First, you are incorrect. The typical Monk AC at minimum matches and more often than not surpasses the typical ACs of the Ranger, Barbarian and Rogue, as well as the AC for any DEX-based Fighter or Paladin. The only ones who beat a Monk in AC are STR-builds with shields. Furthermore while the Monk indeed doesn't have as nuch HPs as most other martials, they have a lot of danger-mitigating features.


Second, the Monk is not a straightforward class with an efficiency that can just be quickly calculated in a vacuum. A Monk is devastating when they are in the field, where they can use the right tool of their unique toolset to fit the circumstances. I've seen Monks outdamage and outlast the other martials more than once, in actual combats.
I will admit it depends a bit on party wealth but from my experience medium armor characters tend to achieve half plate before level 4 giving them an AC of 17 to the monks AC of 16, assuming point by for simplicity. Heavy armor tends to get full plate a little after 5th, making for an AC of 18 to the monks 17. This gets more complex with the defensive style in play as well, as that will get martial characters into the AC 18-19 range. You are correct for high rolling monks outside of point buy, and monks at and beyond 12th level if and only if magic armor doesn't appear in your game in any relevant fashion and the monk is only taking 1-2 feats.
So in summation, 1-7 is armor is favored, 8+ about even, 12+ monk is favored. Magic armor screws with the grid and monks tend to not grab feats.
This could be a perception thing, in my play group we tend to be low-level or high magic.

Sidenote: I thought Dex-based Paladin's tended to be Rapier-shield, cause of that whole can't smite at range thing which would give them AC of 19-20, which is close to the end game monk AC? Honest question, I have only heard occasional talk on dex paladin builds and wouldn't be surprised if I am entirely wrong on that.

But either way, I believe we need to find a way to break a Maul wielding monk in half to bring a smile to this OPs face if we can.

[Dork_Forge]

I will admit it depends a bit on party wealth but from my experience medium armor characters tend to achieve half plate before level 4 giving them an AC of 17 to the monks AC of 16, assuming point by for simplicity. Heavy armor tends to get full plate a little after 5th, making for an AC of 18 to the monks 17. This gets more complex with the defensive style in play as well, as that will get martial characters into the AC 18-19 range. You are correct for high rolling monks outside of point buy, and monks at and beyond 12th level if and only if magic armor doesn't appear in your game in any relevant fashion and the monk is only taking 1-2 feats.
So in summation, 1-7 is armor is favored, 8+ about even, 12+ monk is favored. Magic armor screws with the grid and monks tend to not grab feats.
This could be a perception thing, in my play group we tend to be low-level or high magic.

Sidenote: I thought Dex-based Paladin's tended to be Rapier-shield, cause of that whole can't smite at range thing which would give them AC of 19-20, which is close to the end game monk AC? Honest question, I have only heard occasional talk on dex paladin builds and wouldn't be surprised if I am entirely wrong on that.

But either way, I believe we need to find a way to break a Maul wielding monk in half to bring a smile to this OPs face if we can.

Dex based Paladins can hit 21AC with mundane gear and no spells if they want to.

The thing to consider here is that the armor characters are investing heavily in gold to achieve that AC and will end up with disadvantage in stealth, and night time vulnerability as a trade off.


You can probably make a GWM monk work, but tbh at that point it's not really much of a Monk if you're ignoring the majority of their kit.

[Gtdead]

First, you are incorrect. The typical Monk AC at minimum matches and more often than not surpasses the typical ACs of the Ranger, Barbarian and Rogue, as well as the AC for any DEX-based Fighter or Paladin. The only ones who beat a Monk in AC are STR-builds with shields. Furthermore while the Monk indeed doesn't have as nuch HPs as most other martials, they have a lot of danger-mitigating features.

Are we comparing Monk to the average example of these classes that you can find in the PHB, or actual optimized builds. I mean, sure, they have the same AC compared to a GWM fighter with GWF and a chain mail, but the optimized fighter carries a shield and picks either defense or blindfight if there is party synergy.

All medium armor classes start with a scale mail, which puts them at 16 AC, and most of them can carry a shield. Some of them have access to fighting style:defense. And of course Barbarian has damage reduction and subclasses that promote.. dying! Also, while not all, the majority of DEX builds are ranged, which diminishes the need for high AC. Monk's features work in melee.

As for the mitigating features, deflect arrow is amazing at lvl 3 but gets progressively worse due to multiattacks, step of the wind is usually replaced by mobile and patient defense is a resource drain which can also be wasted because it has to be used preemptively (unlike Shield for example), so enemies will ignore. Monk's AoO is inconsequential unless he grabs sentinel. The only thing he is naturally good at, is avoiding save for half damage.



Second, the Monk is not a straightforward class with an efficiency that can just be quickly calculated in a vacuum. A Monk is devastating when they are in the field, where they can use the right tool of their unique toolset to fit the circumstences. I've seen Monks outdamage and outlast the other martials more than once, in actual combats.

Doesn't that make him circumstantial? Of the top of my head, I can think of numerous scenarios where I'd rather have ANYTHING other than a monk while I can think of only 2 where Monk is amazing. One is stunning strike the boss (duh!) and the other is playing hide and seek on a very open map/fighting a war of attrition (but only at low levels, I don't think he has enough mitigation to deal with stronger monsters, although I could be mistaken, I'm not very well versed in CR5-10 monsters, but the strong ones should have at least +7-9 to hit and multiattacks, while monk is most likely to have 17 AC at this point).

[ff7hero]

There's also Focused Aim, but that comes online at level 5 also.

Maybe as a Loxodon you could Grapple/Prone with your trunk?

[Bosh]

Living in Darkness, Living in a World of My Own

As other people have pointed out for a GWM build you really need a more reliable and less resource-intensive means of getting advantage than stunning people. Luckily you have one: Darkness! Shadow monks are great at darkness, they just need a way to SEE in the darkness.

There are three ways of doing that:
1. Two levels in warlock.
2. Take the Fighting Initiate feat.
2. One level in fighter for blind fighting.
3. One level in any caster class (i.e. war cleric) and then the eldritch initiate feat in order to nah devil's sight.

Option 1 is possible (hexblade 2/shadow monk x is a ninja build that's one hell of a lot of fun) but doesn't fit a GWM bruiser.

Option 2 is workable with the Githyanki race and would allow you to be an armored GWM without multiclassing but you'd need TWO feats so the whole thing wouldn't come online until Level 8, which is quite late.

Option 3 is workable especially if you want a non-human race since you'd only need one feat which means the build would come online at level 5. One problem with this is that blind fighting's radius is quite small so if you cast darkness on something that you're carrying you'd be surrounded by a weird donut of darkness around you.

Option 4 is my favorite since the war cleric domain gives you some solid goodies including bonus action attacks and some nifty cantrips (guidance!!) and solid first level buffs.

Also with Option 4 you can take your first level in monk if you prefer the monk's skills and saves while you MUST take fighter at first level to secure heavy armor.

So I've go monk 1 (and suck horribly for one level) then war cleric 1 then at least up to monk 6 for the teleporting while possibly taking cleric 2 later for channel divinity if you really want it. I'd also really try to get 14 wisdom if at all possible.

At low levels before the darkness/devil's sight combo comes online and while you still can stun people I'd be using ki for movement and defense. With heavy armor and bonus action dodge you'd be incredibly tanky. Also situational use of the shadow monk's very nifty spells.

You'd also be able to use bonus actions on some of the war priest spells, the war priest bonus action attacks and the bonus actions you get from GWM. Seems like a nice suite of powers. I'm thinking of playing it myself.

I LOVE melee fighters that are mobile and hard to take down, it's my niche hence me playing things like barbs with rogue dips for cunning action dashes and this hits the same kind of goodness.

[Dalinar]

I can't speak for everyone, but my experience playing Sun Soul in T1 alongside someone who had a Sharpshooter build was pretty brutal. I'd be spending my Ki on extra attacks that did at best around 7-8 damage that missed fairly often while the other guy spent no resources besides ammo, had advantage a lot of the time, and did dramatically more damage from much farther away.

Whether that's a problem with Sun Soul specifically, Monk in general, or the other guy, I'll leave to the jury.

In fact, that experience made me want to rework the whole class, something I have yet to experience for any other class in this game. Been working through the kinks on that with my DM.

[stoutstien]

Are we comparing Monk to the average example of these classes that you can find in the PHB, or actual optimized builds. I mean, sure, they have the same AC compared to a GWM fighter with GWF and a chain mail, but the optimized fighter carries a shield and picks either defense or blindfight if there is party synergy.

All medium armor classes start with a scale mail, which puts them at 16 AC, and most of them can carry a shield. Some of them have access to fighting style:defense. And of course Barbarian has damage reduction and subclasses that promote.. dying! Also, while not all, the majority of DEX builds are ranged, which diminishes the need for high AC. Monk's features work in melee.

As for the mitigating features, deflect arrow is amazing at lvl 3 but gets progressively worse due to multiattacks, step of the wind is usually replaced by mobile and patient defense is a resource drain which can also be wasted because it has to be used preemptively (unlike Shield for example), so enemies will ignore. Monk's AoO is inconsequential unless he grabs sentinel. The only thing he is naturally good at, is avoiding save for half damage.



Doesn't that make him circumstantial? Of the top of my head, I can think of numerous scenarios where I'd rather have ANYTHING other than a monk while I can think of only 2 where Monk is amazing. One is stunning strike the boss (duh!) and the other is playing hide and seek on a very open map/fighting a war of attrition (but only at low levels, I don't think he has enough mitigation to deal with stronger monsters, although I could be mistaken, I'm not very well versed in CR5-10 monsters, but the strong ones should have at least +7-9 to hit and multiattacks, while monk is most likely to have 17 AC at this point).

Depends on what level(s) you are looking at. Monks actually scale well unlike a lot of the classes. Prof in all saves, resistance to all damage, invisible that doesn't break on damage, and having a very cheap form of action denial via SS gives the base monk a lot of tools. They are kinda the inverse problem of the barbarian. Starts out slow but slowly ramps up into a monster. Barbarians come out of the gate amazingly and quickly basically stop progression about the same point the monk gets enough ki to safely handle different challenges.

Monks also have one of the scariest AOs due to SS. Even with a 75% of passing the save that's a gamble that could end them

All this is before a subclass which there are some duds but also some gems depending on what you want.

[KyleG]

I'm running an open hand monk warforged and originally planned to take a level in tempest cleric to broaden my abilities. Story elements have recently made me reconsider this. Although the level 18 and 19 abilities are fantastic they aren't exactly very in character so ive been considering a fighter dip. Although gwm is out (im a dex build) the dedicated weapon feature means we could take advantage of a warhammer+2 going wanting in our bag of holding. I'm thinking 14+4 split and either 2 more fighter for asi (5th wasted) or just 4 and drop in a rogue level and the cleric. Not sure how bad that would make me but could be good for roleplay.

[Gtdead]

Depends on what level(s) you are looking at. Monks actually scale well unlike a lot of the classes. Prof in all saves, resistance to all damage, invisible that doesn't break on damage, and having a very cheap form of action denial via SS gives the base monk a lot of tools. They are kinda the inverse problem of the barbarian. Starts out slow but slowly ramps up into a monster. Barbarians come out of the gate amazingly and quickly basically stop progression about the same point the monk gets enough ki to safely handle different challenges.

Monks also have one of the scariest AOs due to SS. Even with a 75% of passing the save that's a gamble that could end them

All this is before a subclass which there are some duds but also some gems depending on what you want.

The problem with SS is that it's far more costly than what people think. With a flurry, monk statistically will succeed in 3 out of the 4 attacks. With a 25% chance of SS landing, if he spends a Ki on every strike, the average chance of success is 68% which means that the monk will need 6 Ki in average to succeed in landing one SS. Which means that the 18 level monk will land 3 SS per short rest. Half of CR15+ monsters have CON proficiency and 1/3 of them have 11+ Con save. So essentially, Monk will take 3 turns to burn through legendary resistances on average, dealing pitiful damage in the meantime. Enemies can completely ignore him and not much will change. If the rest of the party gets 3 turns to attack, chances are that they will kill the BBEG before Monk succeeds in stunning it.

So it doesn't matter if monk gets perma invisibility, impossible DCs and Damage immunity. In a lot of fights he can safely be ignored. His best function is to shut down spellcasters. Of course at this level, counterspell is spammable, but it's still nice to have someone that can shut them down without having to expend many resources, and shadow monk is probably the best at that (Shadow is probably the best at everything that Monk can do IMO, but this is beside the point).

[Ertwin]

The problem with SS is that it's far more costly than what people think. With a flurry, monk statistically will succeed in 3 out of the 4 attacks. With a 25% chance of SS landing, if he spends a Ki on every strike, the average chance of success is 68% which means that the monk will need 6 Ki in average to succeed in landing one SS. Which means that the 18 level monk will land 3 SS per short rest. Half of CR15+ monsters have CON proficiency and 1/3 of them have 11+ Con save. So essentially, Monk will take 3 turns to burn through legendary resistances on average, dealing pitiful damage in the meantime. Enemies can completely ignore him and not much will change. If the rest of the party gets 3 turns to attack, chances are that they will kill the BBEG before Monk succeeds in stunning it.

So it doesn't matter if monk gets perma invisibility, impossible DCs and Damage immunity. In a lot of fights he can safely be ignored. His best function is to shut down spellcasters. Of course at this level, counterspell is spammable, but it's still nice to have someone that can shut them down without having to expend many resources, and shadow monk is probably the best at that (Shadow is probably the best at everything that Monk can do IMO, but this is beside the point).

If the monster is burning it's Legendaries neutralizing the monk, that means it isn't using them to neutralize whatever else the party is throwing at it. and if it isn't neutralizing the monk, it straight up loses a turn. Either way, it can't just ignore the monk.

Also, maybe it's because I don't play with many optimisers, but I've found that monks generally do about on par, or more damage than other party members in a round, unless somebody novas.

[Gtdead]

If the monster is burning it's Legendaries neutralizing the monk, that means it isn't using them to neutralize whatever else the party is throwing at it. and if it isn't neutralizing the monk, it straight up loses a turn. Either way, it can't just ignore the monk.

The example is theoretical and the point I'm trying to make is that statistically, against almost half the CR15+ monsters, Monk will need more turns to stun the big bad than the party will need to kill it through damage. For a more realistic example, Monk can't chase a dragon, which is a fairly common encounter. The dragon will just ignore the monk. Breath usually does nothing to him, monk does nothing to the dragon except perhaps shoot it with a bow for 10 dpr so they are at an inpasse.


Also, maybe it's because I don't play with many optimisers, but I've found that monks generally do about on par, or more damage than other party members in a round, unless somebody novas.

I've played with monks too and they were pitiful. I still remember the first Monk I've played with in 5e. The guy got so fed up with how few Ki he had that he stopped using it all together and kept it for "a rainy day". Also I may talk the talk but I don't walk the walk. I play Alert Paladins and Elemental Adept Clerics. No one ever got their spotlight stolen from me ^^.

[stoutstien]

I think that's one of the issues players have with the monk is using FoB to often. Once they are running around with neigh permanent advantage that extra attack over martial arts is not worth it if your attempting to CC a target. Thanks to ki fueled strike even at lower levels FoBs is more of a ki dump rather than something do regularly.

[Witty Username]

As someone who went 3 turns against an ancient blue dragon, ran out of ki having only knocked off 1 use of legendary resistance before plummeting out of the sky when I lost concentration on my fly spell. I don't have confidence in that assessment and I believe monks look more impressive than they actually are.

[Dork_Forge]

As someone who went 3 turns against an ancient blue dragon, ran out of ki having only knocked off 1 use of legendary resistance before plummeting out of the sky when I lost concentration on my fly spell. I don't have confidence in that assessment and I believe monks look more impressive than they actually are.

This doesn't really say much, running out of Ki after 3 rounds (assuming going into the encounter full up) is some serious nova usage, even with Ride the Wind costing 4 Ki points.

For additional context what was your save DC? A creature that has a 22AC and +15 Con save is the epitome of a bad choice to try and stun, burning one Legendary Resistance seems lucky tbh

[Unoriginal]

As someone who went 3 turns against an ancient blue dragon, ran out of ki having only knocked off 1 use of legendary resistance before plummeting out of the sky when I lost concentration on my fly spell. I don't have confidence in that assessment and I believe monks look more impressive than they actually are.

Going 3 rounds against an ancient blue dragon is impressive by itself.

Also I'm going to guess your Monk survived the fall because they were a Monk.

[Gtdead]

For additional context what was your save DC? A creature that has a 22AC and +15 Con save is the epitome of a bad choice to try and stun, burning one Legendary Resistance seems lucky tbh

The problem is that most dragons are like that and the best DC you can get is 19 if you decide to max WIS (most will have 17-18 at T4). Which begs the question, how will the monk actually deal with that encounter? It's not like he has a myriad of options to choose from.

[Unoriginal]

Which begs the question, how will the monk actually deal with that encounter? It's not like he has a myriad of options to choose from.

Is the Monk in this question alone? And what are their level?

[Gtdead]

Is the Monk in this question alone? And what are their level?

No, not alone, choose your party, and level is whenever you would face a dragon. Choose anything from 10 to 20 and make your case. I'm really interested in how the Monk would contribute meaningfully because I can't find the answer myself and SS doesn't really work.

[Dork_Forge]

The problem is that most dragons are like that and the best DC you can get is 19 if you decide to max WIS (most will have 17-18 at T4). Which begs the question, how will the monk actually deal with that encounter? It's not like he has a myriad of options to choose from.

Most dragons are not like that, Ancient is the worse by far and spell casters face the same issues.

Things Monks can do (this will be a grab-bag off the top of my head):

- Poisoned condition (Mercy), requires no save just a hit

- Grapple (Astral Self is the best at this)

-Knock prone (Open Hand is best at this)

-Wall of stone cover

- Just kill it... All Monks are applicable here but Kensei and Sun Soul are best

[stoutstien]

Most dragons are not like that, Ancient is the worse by far and spell casters face the same issues.

Things Monks can do (this will be a grab-bag off the top of my head):

- Poisoned condition (Mercy), requires no save just a hit

- Grapple (Astral Self is the best at this)

-Knock prone (Open Hand is best at this)

-Wall of stone cover

- Just kill it... All Monks are applicable here but Kensei and Sun Soul are best

I was about to say mercy are dragon slayers. Even green dragons would avoid directly confronting a mercy monk.

[Unoriginal]

I was about to say mercy are dragon slayers. Even green dragons would avoid directly confronting a mercy monk.

TBF, Green Dragons should avoid Monks, period.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Long story short, Treantmonk was completely wrong with this video. His reasoning is at best incoherent and at worst him starting with the conclusion he wants then trying to justify it.

If you want to build a Monk that is not a squishy sub-par damage dealer, build any Monk that isn't intentionally weak.


Tbh, I have to agree, his whole reasoning boiled down to "they are weak because they can't use GWM". While I agree monks can be rather weak in a direct confrontation (ie: trading attacks and nothing else), his arguments in the video weren't very solid.

Honestly, it's Treantmonk. I wasn't a fan of him when everyone was declaring him the God of 3.5E, and I'm still not his biggest fan.

Does he have some salient points? Of course he does. Should he be the end-all arbiter of what is Good in 5E? Absolutely not. He sets arbitrary goalposts that he thinks any given role should be able to meet, and if they fail at that, they're irredeemably bad and you shouldn't ever consider playing them.

Also worth noting that I've done the relevant math, and dragons tend to be under-CR'd, especially the older ones. Green and White dragons are actually the worse matchups for a monk against the Chromatic dragons, as their breath weapons are Con saves, as opposed to the monk's (likely better) Dexterity save against Black, Blue and Red.

Also, if you're flying as a monk under your own power, you're likely playing a Way of 4 Elements monk, which is kinda notoriously bad. With good reason - the spell replication effects are widely considered to be too expensive (which I agree with), and I say this as a DM of a player who played one from about levels 6-13.

[Unoriginal]

Green and White dragons are actually the worse matchups for a monk against the Chromatic dragons, as their breath weapons are Con saves, as opposed to the monk's (likely better) Dexterity save against Black, Blue and Red.

Important to note that Monks are immune to the Green Dragon's breath, from lvl 10 onward.



Also, if you're flying as a monk under your own power, you're likely playing a Way of 4 Elements monk, which is kinda notoriously bad. With good reason - the spell replication effects are widely considered to be too expensive (which I agree with), and I say this as a DM of a player who played one from about levels 6-13.

I agree the Elemental Disciplines are pretty ki-hungry for their effects. Ki-Fueled Attack helps some, but with how many elemental spells got published since the PHB the 4 Elements Monk should really get new Elemental Disciplines.

It's not like the Battle Master didn't get new manoeuvres or the like.

[Gtdead]

Green dragons got the short end of the stick. Clerics/Druids just trivialize them with Heroes' Feast. It's not even funny. They transform them into a big flying slab of meat.

[Dork_Forge]

Green dragons got the short end of the stick. Clerics/Druids just trivialize them with Heroes' Feast. It's not even funny. They transform them into a big flying slab of meat.

You don't even need Heroe's Feast, Dwarves, Warforged, Yuan-Ti Purebloods and I'm pretty sure I'm missing more, there's plenty of ways to mitigate poison damage on the PC side.

[Gtdead]

You don't even need Heroe's Feast, Dwarves, Warforged, Yuan-Ti Purebloods and I'm pretty sure I'm missing more, there's plenty of ways to mitigate poison damage on the PC side.

It's just that heroes feast deals with fear too. Adds insult to injury.

[stoutstien]

Green dragons got the short end of the stick. Clerics/Druids just trivialize them with Heroes' Feast. It's not even funny. They transform them into a big flying slab of meat.

TBH without some effort on the DMs part all dragons are just that. Their breath weapon isn't enough to shift the feel and impact of them as a challenge.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Important to note that Monks are immune to the Green Dragon's breath, from lvl 10 onward.



I agree the Elemental Disciplines are pretty ki-hungry for their effects. Ki-Fueled Attack helps some, but with how many elemental spells got published since the PHB the 4 Elements Monk should really get new Elemental Disciplines.

It's not like the Battle Master didn't get new manoeuvres or the like.

I keep forgetting that not everyone house rules Green dragons back to Acid damage :smallredface:

And I absolutely agree with the latter. Alas, I doubt that they will. 4 Elements isn't nearly as popular as Battle Master is.

[Witty Username]

Is the Monk in this question alone? And what are their level?
I don't remember the exact level anymore, I want to say around 15.
The party was a fighter (champion, at least I think), a druid(moon), a bard (lore I think)and me (way of four elements monk). We only had PHB options at the time.

I think what happened is the dragon got lucky with its recharge, lightning breathed twice, druid got messed up, I made my evasions. Then the third turn I got bitten and plummeted. This was more than a few years ago now so my memory is spotty.

[Unoriginal]

I don't remember the exact level anymore, I want to say around 15.
The party was a fighter (champion, at least I think), a druid(moon), a bard (lore I think)and me (way of four elements monk). We only had PHB options at the time.

I think what happened is the dragon got lucky with its recharge, lightning breathed twice, druid got messed up, I made my evasions. Then the third turn I got bitten and plummeted. This was more than a few years ago now so my memory is spotty.

So basically at lvl 15 your Monk was the only PC who managed to put any kind of a fight against an Ancient Blue Dragon who was lucky?

[Witty Username]

So basically at lvl 15 your Monk was the only PC who managed to put any kind of a fight against an Ancient Blue Dragon who was lucky?

Like I said, my memory has gone spotty, all I remember after I dropped is nobody died, and the battle lasted a couple more rounds after I dropped to the ground. I think the bard killed the dragon, I can't really say that with confidence though.



For additional context what was your save DC? A creature that has a 22AC and +15 Con save is the epitome of a bad choice to try and stun, burning one Legendary Resistance seems lucky tbh

Oh, Sorry I over looked you question, I had Dex and Wis both at 20, So like +10 attack roll/ DC 18 save.

[stoutstien]

Like I said, my memory has gone spotty, all I remember after I dropped is nobody died, and the battle lasted a couple more rounds after I dropped to the ground. I think the bard killed the dragon, I can't really say that with confidence though.



Oh, Sorry I over looked you question, I had Dex and Wis both at 20, So like +10 attack roll/ DC 18 save.

You remember of you had water whip? Often over looked but it works well because often those who have good AC and Con saves tend to have lower Dex saves and dislike being forced prone. If I recall even the dragons of ancient status only have about a 50% chance not to fail. It's a cheap way to burn LR or bring it down to the level where the rest of the party can poke it.

[Gignere]

You remember of you had water whip? Often over looked but it works well because often those who have good AC and Con saves tend to have lower Dex saves and dislike being forced prone. If I recall even the dragons of ancient status only have about a 50% chance not to fail. It's a cheap way to burn LR or bring it down to the level where the rest of the party can poke it.

These discussions are sometimes very funny, we go about as if the PCs have access to a monster manual at their finger tips. If you’re not metagaming the hell out of it, how does any reasonable character know that they have 50% of targeting a dex save instead of a con save. Thankfully when I DM, I like to give out random save proficiencies to guard against this type of metagaming. With the proper lore check I would give you that information.

[stoutstien]

These discussions are sometimes very funny, we go about as if the PCs have access to a monster manual at their finger tips. If you’re not metagaming the hell out of it, how does any reasonable character know that they have 50% of targeting a dex save instead of a con save. Thankfully when I DM, I like to give out random save proficiencies to guard against this type of metagaming. With the proper lore check I would give you that information.

How is it metagaming? It's big and strong and slow. It probably has crap dex. It's also flying so it's a prime target for prone. We're talking about a game that color codes the dragons for your convenience.

It's the same reason why monks are good at taking out spellcasters because they most likely don't have a good defense against getting stunned. You'd figure somebody who spends a lifetime learning how to interrupt the natural flow of life force of things would have that much situational awareness.

[Gignere]

How is it metagaming? It's big and strong and slow. It probably has crap dex. It's also flying so it's a prime target for prone. We're talking about a game that color codes the dragons for your convenience.

It's the same reason why monks are good at taking out spellcasters because they most likely don't have a good defense against getting stunned. You'd figure somebody who spends a lifetime learning how to interrupt the natural flow of life force of things would have that much situational awareness.

You know how many times when I played and the DM described a monster instead of using its name, and I consciously didn’t do a Google search or reach for my monster manual, I got the monster wrong. Like not even close to the correct one.

Dragons maybe the exception, even than one time we fought a vampiric silver dragon damn did the DM surprise the hell out of us. Because we assumed it was good and that since it was the size of a young dragon we could stomp all over it.

[stoutstien]

You know how many times when I played and the DM described a monster instead of using its name, and I consciously didn’t do a Google search or reach for my monster manual, I got the monster wrong. Like not even close to the correct one.

Dragons maybe the exception, even than one time we fought a vampiric silver dragon damn did the DM surprise the hell out of us. Because we assumed it was good and that since it was the size of a young dragon we could stomp all over it.

What does that have to do with the price of milk? Any DM can use "got ya" tactics but the dnd world follows certain themes and the description/name is part of it.

The whole metagaming things has about as much barring on the game as which potato chips you like to being to game night.

[shipiaozi]

Monk is the 5th best class(weaker than sorcerer/warrior/wizard/bard, very close to Paladin and Druid, clearly better than anyone else) in 5e, but most players don't build it correctly and end up with a very weak character. In short, monk should attack with PAM, -5+10 and stunning strike, attack with natural weapon is almost always a bad choice.

Although there are other builds, I suggest monk start with Barbarian 1, get 5 monk levels, then the second babrbarian level, then continue Way of the Long Death. You would get a character with normal melee dps, control ability that could compete with extra attack(2) in t3 and strongest defence since lv13. In addition, monk would become better if your team have more than one monk with this viable build.

SS is monk's key ability, usually monk should avoid using ki on other abilities.

Don't waste feat on Wis+2 though, SS is only part of your attack and +1 attack roll for part of your attacks worth far less than a feat.



The problem is that most dragons are like that and the best DC you can get is 19 if you decide to max WIS (most will have 17-18 at T4). Which begs the question, how will the monk actually deal with that encounter? It's not like he has a myriad of options to choose from.

A monk could deal damage on par with other non-warrior melee build(2+1 attacks, advantage, -5+10) while have the best defence to survive.

[Chronic]

I mean, as a monk you deal less damage, have less AC, and less HP then the other martials generally (your in line with rogue for HP and AC, and below ranger, barbarian, paladin and fighter). What is a squishy, sub-par damage dealer if not that?

Monk is a solid chassis, decent damage, great mobility, have access to a few defensive option, have one of the best feature of any martial, AKA stunning strike. Monks are fine.
If people's idea of a fight is standing still and wacking at each other hoping the other will drop first, sure the monk isn't the best (he still has stunning strike, so still very useful). The moment you introduce a tactical dimension, monks become great.

[Unoriginal]

Monk is a solid chassis, decent damage, great mobility, have access to a few defensive option, have one of the best feature of any martial, AKA stunning strike. Monks are fine.
If people's idea of a fight is standing still and wacking at each other hoping the other will drop first, sure the monk isn't the best (he still has stunning strike, so still very useful). The moment you introduce a tactical dimension, monks become great.

Indeed. Which is why white room theorycrafting declares they're bad, because simulating the flow of an actual fight with tactical concerns is hard and most won't bother with the effort.

[Chronic]

Also about the dragon fight, 4 elements monks have access to flight, and can prone him with targeting either dex or strength.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Also about the dragon fight, 4 elements monks have access to flight, and can prone him with targeting either dex or strength.

I mean, even odds to prone the dragon. They've probably got a +6 to Athletics (pure Strength), while if you're a monk trying it you've probably got something pretty equivalent (say, +5 proficiency and +1 Strength). Can't believe that dragons don't have Athletics proficiency (or proficiency in Strength saves!), but that's probably for the best.

[JNAProductions]

I mean, even odds to prone the dragon. They've probably got a +6 to Athletics (pure Strength), while if you're a monk trying it you've probably got something pretty equivalent (say, +5 proficiency and +1 Strength). Can't believe that dragons don't have Athletics proficiency (or proficiency in Strength saves!), but that's probably for the best.

Water Whip targets Dex saves, and knocks prone on a failed save.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, even odds to prone the dragon. They've probably got a +6 to Athletics (pure Strength), while if you're a monk trying it you've probably got something pretty equivalent (say, +5 proficiency and +1 Strength). Can't believe that dragons don't have Athletics proficiency (or proficiency in Strength saves!), but that's probably for the best.


Water Whip targets Dex saves, and knocks prone on a failed save.

I think Chronic meant Fist of the Unbroken Air, which targets STR and knocks prone on a failed save.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Water Whip targets Dex saves, and knocks prone on a failed save.

Dragons are proficient in Dexterity saves, but I get your point. Monks hold the edge there, assuming that they're keeping their Wisdom high; DC 18ish versus the +6 save. I keep sleeping on Water Whip ever since the nerf back in the day.

[JNAProductions]

I think Chronic meant Fist of the Unbroken Air, which targets STR and knocks prone on a failed save.

Or both. You got options!

[stoutstien]

Dragons are proficient in Dexterity saves, but I get your point. Monks hold the edge there, assuming that they're keeping their Wisdom high; DC 18ish versus the +6 save. I keep sleeping on Water Whip ever since the nerf back in the day.
Getting switched to an action did hurt it pretty bad but Tasha turned it back around with adding in a free ba attack whenever you spend ki so it's mostly back to where it was before.

[Witty Username]

You remember of you had water whip? Often over looked but it works well because often those who have good AC and Con saves tend to have lower Dex saves and dislike being forced prone. If I recall even the dragons of ancient status only have about a 50% chance not to fail. It's a cheap way to burn LR or bring it down to the level where the rest of the party can poke it.

I didn't, I did have Fist of unbroken air, shape the flowing river, and the flying one.

[Chronic]

I meant both yes, because both are in my opinion mandatory on 4 ele monks. Low cost, ranged, control, decent damage early, target two different saves (and usually if an opponent is good at one, he's bad at the other), useful against flyers. I find it hard to pass up on those disciplines.

[tKUUNK]

Edit: I do think the OPs build is pretty cool actually. Got swept up in other discussion.

My observations after playing a shadow monk from lv1 into tier 3:

Even without taking the Mobility feat (yeah I know, crazy) my character can usually be anywhere on the battlefield THIS round. This offsets my total inability to deal nova damage, but not completely...sometimes I feel like I'm running heroically across the field to swat at the enemy like I'm a really fast and pathetic 6 year old. And yeah, what good is this mobility compared to the ranged attackers? Unless I think I can land stun, which typically I try not to spam because it feels too cheesy.

If a monk has any way to heal allies, it is GOLDEN. Because again, you can usually get to anyone, right now. And if you're still in the scrum, you might have a Bonus Action to use Dodge.

Overall, my experience has been: I really need to be on top of my tactical game to be effective... by focusing on the nearly dead enemies, timing stuns, timing Patient Defense, and just being a real pain in the ass to my enemies by standing in the exact right spot.

Monk has actually been a ton of fun to play, I think partly thanks to the DM who designs & balances encounters well.

The only thing I wish for still is a way to (burn Ki to) nova. Even if it were limited to 1x/ long rest. I suspect that would "fix" up the class for a lot of other monk players. But I'd play monk again even without it. It's been way more fun than appears on paper.

The thought of using GWM / PAM as a monk sounds like a waste of ASIs, and maybe you ought to play fighter if your focus is damage. Go for it if you can find a way!

[BerzerkerUnit]

I've never had a problem with monks. I think there's an over reliance on DPR as a metric for contribution in combat and Monk can feel weak when compared to Treantmonk's accepted baseline: Warlock, Eblast/Agonizing Blast/Hex. One of the probelms I have with that baseline is the value of Hex is diminished as you upcast, I don't want to burn a 5th level slot on it, but I might burn a 5th level slot on Spirit Shroud which I think is 2d8 per hit? But then I have to be within 10 feet. So there's some shallowness to his baseline that I think skews the comparisons.

That said, the Monk's default output is statistically going to look weak, but most of what I've seen looks at raw averages. They don't seem to account for what the significantly higher minimums do in play. At level 5 a monk gets 5 rounds of Fighter 20 attack routine per short rest. A Pam fighter has spent a feat to get Fighter 11 at the same level. The monk's minimum is probably 16 + 4 dice if all the attacks hit, nearly double the PAM fighter's minimum of 9 + 3 dice. The fighter's dice are bigger, but if they don't roll those higher numbers, you aren't going to feel it unless you take GWF style which is understood to be functionally ~+1.

That's the difference people that say it seems Monks are outdamaging other martials are seeing. GWM will make for some big hits, but in those early levels it will create a similar # of misses. It feels good because the human brain loves to gamble, but that doesn't mean the math always observes a statistical mean at your table. That mean is formed across countless rolls and countless tables, so you might spend weeks never seeing a crit while someone on the other side of the world can't touch a die without it coming up 20.

But this is just one nobody's opinion on the internet.

[Bosh]

Monk is the 5th best class(weaker than sorcerer/warrior/wizard/bard, very close to Paladin and Druid, clearly better than anyone else) in 5e, but most players don't build it correctly and end up with a very weak character. In short, monk should attack with PAM, -5+10 and stunning strike, attack with natural weapon is almost always a bad choice.

Although there are other builds, I suggest monk start with Barbarian 1, get 5 monk levels, then the second babrbarian level, then continue Way of the Long Death. You would get a character with normal melee dps, control ability that could compete with extra attack(2) in t3 and strongest defence since lv13. In addition, monk would become better if your team have more than one monk with this viable build.

SS is monk's key ability, usually monk should avoid using ki on other abilities.

Don't waste feat on Wis+2 though, SS is only part of your attack and +1 attack roll for part of your attacks worth far less than a feat.

A monk could deal damage on par with other non-warrior melee build(2+1 attacks, advantage, -5+10) while have the best defence to survive.

*blinks*

I'm sorry but if monks are good because of a combination of two feats and a dip and something they can't do (in your example build) until level 6 then they're not that good. The build you're proposing is solid but you can't judge a class's overall power by the most powerful build you can make incorporating it, or we'd be using coffeelocks or somesuch as a balance baseline.

They're not TERRIBLE or anything. 5e is reasonably balanced in combat and while it's wildly unbalanced out of combat monks aren't terrible out of combat like, say, fighters are. Also monks are good at mobility and at least the way I DM, players NEED mobility. One of my players refuses to play anything that can't move 40 feet a round minimum while taking an action in my games :)

[Zalabim]

No, not alone, choose your party, and level is whenever you would face a dragon. Choose anything from 10 to 20 and make your case. I'm really interested in how the Monk would contribute meaningfully because I can't find the answer myself and SS doesn't really work.

A level 18 Kensei can use Empty Body for the resistances, empower a Longbow for a +3 ranged weapon, and go to town with Deft Strike and ~3 attacks per round on an Ancient Blue Dragon to do a respectable amount of damage, much more if they use Sharpshooter and end up outside the dragon's 60' blindsight range for advantage. That dragon is about half the adventure budget for a party of four 18th-level PCs.

[Chronic]

Yeah kensei are excellent damage dealers, they are one of my least favorite subclass tho, they are boring.

[mmcgeach]

There's a youtuber optimizer channel called Bilbrons and Dragons that did a monk build using hand crossbow master and sharpshooter. Hand Xbow lets you use the crossbow at melee distance and still get in your martial arts attacks. It seems like a pretty solid base for a combat-effective monk. It relies maybe too much on shadow monk darkness + blindfighting style, but that's mostly forgivable.

I can't link but you can search for "Johnbron WickMonkStone"

[stoutstien]

There's a youtuber optimizer channel called Bilbrons and Dragons that did a monk build using hand crossbow master and sharpshooter. Hand Xbow lets you use the crossbow at melee distance and still get in your martial arts attacks. It seems like a pretty solid base for a combat-effective monk. It relies maybe too much on shadow monk darkness + blindfighting style, but that's mostly forgivable.

I can't link but you can search for "Johnbron WickMonkStone"

Most kensei archers will out preform it but as stated in a rather bland fashion. With Tasha rules they can generate a ba longbow attack for 1ki per round with deft strike or turn a miss into a hit for 1-3 ki further pushing their damage up. Their nova isn't that impressive but they have constant pressure in spades.

Not saying the SM archer is bad or anything just that there more than 1-2 paths for them to take for being a striker focused option. Even 4E for all the hate it generates is actually very good at dealing damage.

[Unoriginal]

Basically all Monks above mid-level with proficiency in Acrobatics can climb on an Ancient Blue Dragon when the Dragon moves in for melee combat (would require a Ready action if the Dragon is doing swooping attacks, but that's hardly a problem).

Once the Monk is on the Dragon, the Dragon has three possibilities:

-Try to dislodge the Monk, which being a STR check for the Dragon vs the Monk's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics) is unlikely to succeed and will cost the Dragon their action regardless.

-Focus on attacking the Monk, who despite what people say can still take a beating for a while and have options to make hitting/damaging them harder, even without having the best AC, and keeping the dragon from attacking teammates is worthwhile

-Let the Monk stay there

And for as long the Dragon can't get the Monk off their back, they have to endure between 2 and 4 attacks with advantage per turn. While some call that """"""pitiful damage""""""", it isn't something the Dragon can endure for long when the rest of the party is also damaging them. Reliable damage builds up, and it complement big spikes of damage.

Now you could say "but other classes can be better at climbing & staying on the dragon, or at tanking the hits, or at hurting the dragon if they manage to stay", and you wouldn't be incorrect, BUT:

1) Most of said other classes would be better at one or at best two of those things and significantly worse at the other ones, while the Monk is good enough at all three to manage this tactic.

2) Most of said other classes would have significantly more troubles surviving if the Dragon decides to fly away from the fight (or just to fly up), especially after taking a beating from said dragon.

3) The question was what a Monk could do in such circumstances, not what a Monk could do that other classes or that optimized builds couldn't.

4) While other characters could do it with various level of success, they will generally be busy doing something else the players consider better for them to do. Monks are good enough at all the parts of this tactic to help the group by doing it, and unless they have subclass-specific or feat-specific abilities that would help more like a 4 Elements Monk's Water Whip, there is little reason for them to not do it and help the group by doing so.

[samcifer]

I keep having an idea of playing a barbarian/monk that is strength-based. You can take a good deal of damage, do slightly better than normal damage as a monk and have the option of locking down enemies, making for a rather interesting tank build.

[mr_stibbons]

Basically all Monks above mid-level with proficiency in Acrobatics can climb on an Ancient Blue Dragon when the Dragon moves in for melee combat (would require a Ready action if the Dragon is doing swooping attacks, but that's hardly a problem).

Once the Monk is on the Dragon, the Dragon has three possibilities:

-Try to dislodge the Monk, which being a STR check for the Dragon vs the Monk's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics) is unlikely to succeed and will cost the Dragon their action regardless.

-Focus on attacking the Monk, who despite what people say can still take a beating for a while and have options to make hitting/damaging them harder, even without having the best AC, and keeping the dragon from attacking teammates is worthwhile

-Let the Monk stay there

And for as long the Dragon can't get the Monk off their back, they have to endure between 2 and 4 attacks with advantage per turn. While some call that """"""pitiful damage""""""", it isn't something the Dragon can endure for long when the rest of the party is also damaging them. Reliable damage builds up, and it complement big spikes of damage.

Now you could say "but other classes can be better at climbing & staying on the dragon, or at tanking the hits, or at hurting the dragon if they manage to stay", and you wouldn't be incorrect, BUT:

1) Most of said other classes would be better at one or at best two of those things and significantly worse at the other ones, while the Monk is good enough at all three to manage this tactic.

2) Most of said other classes would have significantly more troubles surviving if the Dragon decides to fly away from the fight (or just to fly up), especially after taking a beating from said dragon.

3) The question was what a Monk could do in such circumstances, not what a Monk could do that other classes or that optimized builds couldn't.

4) While other characters could do it with various level of success, they will generally be busy doing something else the players consider better for them to do. Monks are good enough at all the parts of this tactic to help the group by doing it, and unless they have subclass-specific or feat-specific abilities that would help more like a 4 Elements Monk's Water Whip, there is little reason for them to not do it and help the group by doing so.

Now the real problem with that example is that the climbing on monsters rules are hidden in the DMG, and many players are unaware their existence or the fine details, and many DM's treat them like optional rules like flanking. (Flanking also makes monk's movement much better, but is explicitly optional and many tables don't use it as written) You can't rely on any mechanics that aren't in the player facing sections of the rules to be available..

[SharkForce]

Basically all Monks above mid-level with proficiency in Acrobatics can climb on an Ancient Blue Dragon when the Dragon moves in for melee combat (would require a Ready action if the Dragon is doing swooping attacks, but that's hardly a problem).

Once the Monk is on the Dragon, the Dragon has three possibilities:

-Try to dislodge the Monk, which being a STR check for the Dragon vs the Monk's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics) is unlikely to succeed and will cost the Dragon their action regardless.

-Focus on attacking the Monk, who despite what people say can still take a beating for a while and have options to make hitting/damaging them harder, even without having the best AC, and keeping the dragon from attacking teammates is worthwhile

-Let the Monk stay there

And for as long the Dragon can't get the Monk off their back, they have to endure between 2 and 4 attacks with advantage per turn. While some call that """"""pitiful damage""""""", it isn't something the Dragon can endure for long when the rest of the party is also damaging them. Reliable damage builds up, and it complement big spikes of damage.

Now you could say "but other classes can be better at climbing & staying on the dragon, or at tanking the hits, or at hurting the dragon if they manage to stay", and you wouldn't be incorrect, BUT:

1) Most of said other classes would be better at one or at best two of those things and significantly worse at the other ones, while the Monk is good enough at all three to manage this tactic.

2) Most of said other classes would have significantly more troubles surviving if the Dragon decides to fly away from the fight (or just to fly up), especially after taking a beating from said dragon.

3) The question was what a Monk could do in such circumstances, not what a Monk could do that other classes or that optimized builds couldn't.

4) While other characters could do it with various level of success, they will generally be busy doing something else the players consider better for them to do. Monks are good enough at all the parts of this tactic to help the group by doing it, and unless they have subclass-specific or feat-specific abilities that would help more like a 4 Elements Monk's Water Whip, there is little reason for them to not do it and help the group by doing so.

option 4) the dragon, being an intelligent creature, realizes that the monk has kindly agreed to split away from the rest of the party, and chooses to fight the monk solo and come back for the rest later, maybe after its breath weapon has recharged. good luck with that.

I will agree that treantmonk has somewhat of a blind spot when it comes to monk, ironically enough. but the simple fact is, when you optimize the hell out of a monk and focus on its specialty... you are probably slightly better in that specialty than a few other classes could be, except those other classes are probably also far better generalists than you, and can probably do their thing for a lot longer than you can because so much of the monk's kit involves spending ki to do anything at all.

(also, for context: the best monk subclass being a D is more like the best monk subclass being a C. the top rank is taken up by things that he considers to be overpowered to a point where they can ruin the game).

[Unoriginal]

Now the real problem with that example is that the climbing on monsters rules are hidden in the DMG, and many players are unaware their existence or the fine details, and many DM's treat them like optional rules like flanking. (Flanking also makes monk's movement much better, but is explicitly optional and many tables don't use it as written) You can't rely on any mechanics that aren't in the player facing sections of the rules to be available..

I mean, can you rely on any mechanics that are in the player facing sections of the rules?

DMs can just has easily say "yeah it doesn't work like that at my table".

But fair, this is an optional rule. Do you know people who don't allow Medium creatures to climb on Huge ones?


option 4) the dragon, being an intelligent creature, realizes that the monk has kindly agreed to split away from the rest of the party, and chooses to fight the monk solo and come back for the rest later, maybe after its breath weapon has recharged. good luck with that.

I already covered that:



-Focus on attacking the Monk, who despite what people say can still take a beating for a while and have options to make hitting/damaging them harder, even without having the best AC, and keeping the dragon from attacking teammates is worthwhile

[...]

2) Most of said other classes would have significantly more troubles surviving if the Dragon decides to fly away from the fight (or just to fly up), especially after taking a beating from said dragon.

The Monk can just jump off when the Dragon flies away from the rest of the group, and diminish the fall damage without spending any ressource. On top of that the Monk is helping the team get damaged less and is giving them more time to do their things.

Not a worthwhile move for the Dragon unless they're plain fleeing the fight.

[SharkForce]

I already covered that:



The Monk can just jump off when the Dragon flies away from the rest of the group, and diminish the fall damage without spending any ressource. On top of that the Monk is helping the team get damaged less and is giving them more time to do their things.

Not a worthwhile move for the Dragon unless they're plain fleeing the fight.

depending on the dragon, they may get to move 2-3 times (and it has a pretty high move speed) before the monk gets a turn to move off of the dragon with, which means the monk is still that far from the rest of the party (except now the monk is no longer within melee range of the dragon, which can use reach to deal damage while staying too far away for the monk to hit.

so you probably gave the dragon 1-3 rounds alone with the monk. now, I'll certainly agree that this scenario probably doesn't play out well for *any* character, regardless of class, but the monk isn't going to be having a good time either holding off a dragon on their own for a round or three.

[Bosh]

There's a youtuber optimizer channel called Bilbrons and Dragons that did a monk build using hand crossbow master and sharpshooter. Hand Xbow lets you use the crossbow at melee distance and still get in your martial arts attacks. It seems like a pretty solid base for a combat-effective monk. It relies maybe too much on shadow monk darkness + blindfighting style, but that's mostly forgivable.

I can't link but you can search for "Johnbron WickMonkStone"

I'm finding that basically all of these "monk builds that don't suck" revolve around GWM or Sharpshooter. I think that says more about the GWM and Sharpshooter feats than anything else... Not that that's a BAD thing mind you, I'm eyeing a GWM monk build myself but dude in heavy armor slugging people with a maul or dude plugging people with a crossbow at point blank range isn't really what most people think of when it comes to monks it's just that it seems that the best way to be a monk is to use the monk chassis to do other things than...well be a monk.

[Unoriginal]

depending on the dragon, they may get to move 2-3 times (and it has a pretty high move speed) before the monk gets a turn to move off of the dragon with, which means the monk is still that far from the rest of the party

Let's be generous and say the dragon moves three times, for 240ft of movement.

A lvl 15 Monk could run that distance in two rounds if they wanted to ( also assumes the party stays where it was). But they may not want to go that fast, because...



(except now the monk is no longer within melee range of the dragon, which can use reach to deal damage while staying too far away for the monk to hit.

It is to the Monk's advantage.

An Ancient Blue Dragon's breath or Wing attacks aren't what I would call trivial by any measure, but given that they both are a) DEX saves when Monks usually max DEX b) capacities against which Evasion applies c) not capacities the Dragon will get every round unless they are very lucky (for the breath, at least) d) capacities against which the Monk can use Dodge as an action or bonus action to make themselves an harder target, it is pretty clear that the Monk's basic toolkit can handle the Dragon's reach options better than pretty much everyone



so you probably gave the dragon 1-3 rounds alone with the monk. now, I'll certainly agree that this scenario probably doesn't play out well for *any* character, regardless of class, but the monk isn't going to be having a good time either holding off a dragon on their own for a round or three.

If the Ancient Blue Dragon decided to go all in in melee, that may be the case, but if they try the "fly around and attack with your reach options" tactic, I would bet the Monk would last longer than 3 rounds


I'm finding that basically all of these "monk builds that don't suck" revolve around GWM or Sharpshooter. I think that says more about the GWM and Sharpshooter feats than anything else...

I think that says more about so-called optimizers than those feats or anything else.



it's just that it seems that the best way to be a monk is to use the monk chassis to do other things than...well be a monk.

The best way to be a Monk is to be a Monk.

People who make those "monk builds that don't suck" think that Monks suck, so of course they will do whatever they can to de-Monk the Monk when they do said builds.

Monks are great. Just let them be Monks if you want to play one.

[stoutstien]

I'm finding that basically all of these "monk builds that don't suck" revolve around GWM or Sharpshooter. I think that says more about the GWM and Sharpshooter feats than anything else... Not that that's a BAD thing mind you, I'm eyeing a GWM monk build myself but dude in heavy armor slugging people with a maul or dude plugging people with a crossbow at point blank range isn't really what most people think of when it comes to monks it's just that it seems that the best way to be a monk is to use the monk chassis to do other things than...well be a monk.

If anything monks really shine in fearless games. those are just the rare for some reason.

[solidork]

One build thats on my short list of things to try in a game where you get to start with magic items is a Dwarven Monk that combines Dwarven Fortitude (spend hit dice when you dodge) and Periapt of Wound Closure (double HP you regain from hit dice)

If you go Long Death, you'd also have a recurring pile of temporary hit points. Seems like you'd be pretty hard to kill!

[strangebloke]

Very, very simply:

Monks

Have decent damage output without any investment of feats or resources
Get good AC (17) by level 4 without any issue
Have amazing mobility with zero investment (love how white room scenarios always ignore this)
Have the single most powerful lockdown ability in the game this side of diviner wizard. Forcing four save-or-sucks on an enemy in a single round is ridiculous. Yes, the monk has to hit them, but see above.
Have relatively powerful subclasses that offer dramatically more than most rogue or barbarian or fighter subclasses (though not more than outliers like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight)
eventually gain a complete suite of defensive abilities that make them one of them difficult to kill. Once again, they just get this. It's not part of a build.


Like, wow, fifth level kensei over here, dodging as a bonus action with an AC of 19, and running 40 feet a turn, seems super weak. Shadow monk, casting pass without trace, and darkness and and teleporting 60 feet every turn for free, seems super weak.

In my experience the only real problem is that they can't fight efficiently at range, which is a common issue even for really strong classes like paladins.

GWM and Sharpshooter are a waste of time most of the time unless you really must fixate on damage over everything else.

[SharkForce]

Very, very simply:

Monks

Have decent damage output without any investment of feats or resources
Get good AC (17) by level 4 without any issue
Have amazing mobility with zero investment (love how white room scenarios always ignore this)
Have the single most powerful lockdown ability in the game this side of diviner wizard. Forcing four save-or-sucks on an enemy in a single round is ridiculous. Yes, the monk has to hit them, but see above.
Have relatively powerful subclasses that offer dramatically more than most rogue or barbarian or fighter subclasses (though not more than outliers like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight)
eventually gain a complete suite of defensive abilities that make them one of them difficult to kill. Once again, they just get this. It's not part of a build.


Like, wow, fifth level kensei over here, dodging as a bonus action with an AC of 19, and running 40 feet a turn, seems super weak. Shadow monk, casting pass without trace, and darkness and and teleporting 60 feet every turn for free, seems super weak.

In my experience the only real problem is that they can't fight efficiently at range, which is a common issue even for really strong classes like paladins.

GWM and Sharpshooter are a waste of time most of the time unless you really must fixate on damage over everything else.

so, let's review your list and see where some major challenges may lie.

- Have decent damage output without any investment of feats or resources

do they? I mean, they're fine for the first few levels I'd say. 1d8 + 3 and a bonus action for 1d4 + 3 is certainly reasonable at level 1. by the time they get to level 5, they're still doing alright. not great, but alright for not spending resources. I would argue that their damage with resources is looking a bit on the low side (that is, flurry doesn't add a lot of damage). if we check in at level 11, when various other classes are getting their next damage increase... they're basically the same as they were at level 5, and aren't really getting much better any time soon. unless they spend ki on it, in which case that isn't exactly "without investing [...] resources".

- Get good AC (17) by level 4 without any issue

that's not terrible I guess, but I wouldn't say it's good. it's decent. if someone genuinely wants AC, there's a decent chance they could have full plate + shield and gain a little from somewhere else (fighting style being the most consistent option). of course, this completely ignores that their AC is going to increase very slowly while other characters can start picking up magical armour and shields that don't cost attunement slots to continue improving their AC, and in the meanwhile a 17 AC is going to start meaning less and less. of course, they can improve their defense by spending ki, but that's a limited resource.

- Have amazing mobility with zero investment (love how white room scenarios always ignore this)

nobody ignores this. we just don't think it's *quite* as exciting as it would be if the monk was also a force to be reckoned with by the time they get there, and ultimately since the monk is neither incredibly tough to survive being off on their own early or particularly threatening at higher levels to make their high mobility mean something, it kinda loses a little bit of its lustre. also, I wouldn't say their mobility is without investment. step of the wind costs ki. unarmoured movement requires that they don't wear armour, which seriously stunts the growth of their armour class, and no shield, which is a *huge* hit to their armour class.

- Have the single most powerful lockdown ability in the game this side of diviner wizard. Forcing four save-or-sucks on an enemy in a single round is ridiculous. Yes, the monk has to hit them, but see above.

that is pretty nice. but just a quick check: we're already needing ki to shore up our offence and defence and sometimes maybe even our mobility. you want to spend up to 5 ki *per round* on this ability? don't get me wrong, it's a great ability, but at the end of the day it's a single target crowd control effect that the monk can do basically once per short rest when they first get it (the full thing I mean, not just adding it to a single punch), and while at some point that might go up to 2 or 3 times per short rest it is *always* going to be eating into those other things the monk needs. if all your ki goes into stunning, you're basically spent in a few rounds and you suck until you get a short rest. if you had to save your ki up until just before resting to keep this available, that means you spent the earlier part without ki as well.

also, I'm not sure it's as amazing as you think it is. at level 6, a wizard can use hypnotic pattern 3 times per day and web another 3 times per day, and sure they're less likely to work on one target, but it ain't that hard to force an average of 4 saves per spell against a save that is typically weaker than con. for a druid, that might be conjure animals 2 times, spike growth 3 times, and some entangles. and all of those effects last for more than one round generally speaking... what the monk is doing once per short rest at level 5 is being done 6 or more times per day by other classes at level 5, and sure it's less likely to shut down one single target, but it does lock down enough enemies that everyone else in the party can put a lot more focus into that one single target and kill it. unlike the monk, they can do that from range, which means they don't need to worry about all the enemies surrounding them and killing them. of course, maybe you're going to argue that your monk can then just dodge... well, on top of spending ki on things other than stunning (so that's fewer stuns for you), you have now also committed your bonus action. no flurry, you're getting only 2 attacks for a chance to stun, and your damage went straight down to "valour bard, minus any spell support" which is much less impressive.

oh, and as an added kicker, the other controllers all get to do that with their primary attack attribute. the monk needs to decide whether they're going to have the wisdom to make their stuns stick or dexterity to make their attacks land in the first place until very high level.

- Have relatively powerful subclasses that offer dramatically more than most rogue or barbarian or fighter subclasses (though not more than outliers like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight)

do they? some of their subclasses are better at this, some are worse, but most of them cost a bunch of ki to use their abilities. ki that you already need to be simultaneously using to improve your offence, your defence, your ability to crowd control enemies, and your mobility. where are you getting all this ki from to maintain all of these promised benefits exactly?

say what you will about the subclasses offered to the fighter, rogue, and barbarian (personally I think rogue and fighter have some options that offer at least as much as any monk subclass, though admittedly not all of them are good), but generally speaking they don't require you to lose your fighter, rogue, or barbarian class features to do them (and in the rare case that they do, people are quick to point out how crap those subclasses are). champion might be a bit of a lame duck, but at least you don't need to spend your second wind if you want to get the bonus to initiative or burn your action surge to be allowed one improved critical chance. when a fighter, rogue, or barbarian subclass has resources that you need to spend to use the subclass features, it is ADDED, not taken away from a resource that is already stretched thin.

- eventually gain a complete suite of defensive abilities that make them one of them difficult to kill. Once again, they just get this. It's not part of a build.

do they really "just get this" though? or hey wait, that's odd, it looks like most of them... and if this is starting to sound repetitive, maybe you're starting to catch on to something... *cost ki*.

ki that you're already using faster than you can get it to power subclass abilities, mobility, offence, single-target crowd control, you name it the monk probably has to spend ki to do it.

and that pretty much sums it up. everything costs ki. and bonus actions. boy does this class love eating up your bonus action and preventing you from using the other features.

you get a few rounds of functioning like a real class per short rest, and the rest of the time you're kinda like a melee rogue, except with less damage.

[Kuulvheysoon]

so, let's review your list and see where some major challenges may lie.

...

- Get good AC (17) by level 4 without any issue

that's not terrible I guess, but I wouldn't say it's good. it's decent. if someone genuinely wants AC, there's a decent chance they could have full plate + shield and gain a little from somewhere else (fighting style being the most consistent option). of course, this completely ignores that their AC is going to increase very slowly while other characters can start picking up magical armour and shields that don't cost attunement slots to continue improving their AC, and in the meanwhile a 17 AC is going to start meaning less and less. of course, they can improve their defense by spending ki, but that's a limited resource.

This is the only part of your post that I really disagree with. Not that I think that AC17 is stellar, but I've yet to see any group (that I've run or played with) that could afford to buy full plate at 4th level. That's 1500 gp. Though I will point out that the AC of the monk increasing slowly can be helped with bracers of defense, and the fact that increasing their AC via increasing Dexterity/Wisdom come with some pretty huge side benefits (though arguably, increasing their AC is the side benefit of adding ASIs to those). Dexterity gives you better attack and damage, Dexterity saves and Initiative checks, not to mention Acrobatics and Stealth (if that matters to you), while increasing your Wisdom adds to all of your Monk save DCs and increases your Wisdom save and some key skills (notably Perception).

[strangebloke]

so, let's review your list and see where some major challenges may lie.

- Have decent damage output without any investment of feats or resources

do they? I mean, they're fine for the first few levels I'd say. 1d8 + 3 and a bonus action for 1d4 + 3 is certainly reasonable at level 1. by the time they get to level 5, they're still doing alright. not great, but alright for not spending resources. I would argue that their damage with resources is looking a bit on the low side (that is, flurry doesn't add a lot of damage). if we check in at level 11, when various other classes are getting their next damage increase... they're basically the same as they were at level 5, and aren't really getting much better any time soon. unless they spend ki on it, in which case that isn't exactly "without investing [...] resources".

- Get good AC (17) by level 4 without any issue

that's not terrible I guess, but I wouldn't say it's good. it's decent. if someone genuinely wants AC, there's a decent chance they could have full plate + shield and gain a little from somewhere else (fighting style being the most consistent option). of course, this completely ignores that their AC is going to increase very slowly while other characters can start picking up magical armour and shields that don't cost attunement slots to continue improving their AC, and in the meanwhile a 17 AC is going to start meaning less and less. of course, they can improve their defense by spending ki, but that's a limited resource.

- Have amazing mobility with zero investment (love how white room scenarios always ignore this)

nobody ignores this. we just don't think it's *quite* as exciting as it would be if the monk was also a force to be reckoned with by the time they get there, and ultimately since the monk is neither incredibly tough to survive being off on their own early or particularly threatening at higher levels to make their high mobility mean something, it kinda loses a little bit of its lustre. also, I wouldn't say their mobility is without investment. step of the wind costs ki. unarmoured movement requires that they don't wear armour, which seriously stunts the growth of their armour class, and no shield, which is a *huge* hit to their armour class.

- Have the single most powerful lockdown ability in the game this side of diviner wizard. Forcing four save-or-sucks on an enemy in a single round is ridiculous. Yes, the monk has to hit them, but see above.

that is pretty nice. but just a quick check: we're already needing ki to shore up our offence and defence and sometimes maybe even our mobility. you want to spend up to 5 ki *per round* on this ability? don't get me wrong, it's a great ability, but at the end of the day it's a single target crowd control effect that the monk can do basically once per short rest when they first get it (the full thing I mean, not just adding it to a single punch), and while at some point that might go up to 2 or 3 times per short rest it is *always* going to be eating into those other things the monk needs. if all your ki goes into stunning, you're basically spent in a few rounds and you suck until you get a short rest. if you had to save your ki up until just before resting to keep this available, that means you spent the earlier part without ki as well.

also, I'm not sure it's as amazing as you think it is. at level 6, a wizard can use hypnotic pattern 3 times per day and web another 3 times per day, and sure they're less likely to work on one target, but it ain't that hard to force an average of 4 saves per spell against a save that is typically weaker than con. for a druid, that might be conjure animals 2 times, spike growth 3 times, and some entangles. and all of those effects last for more than one round generally speaking... what the monk is doing once per short rest at level 5 is being done 6 or more times per day by other classes at level 5, and sure it's less likely to shut down one single target, but it does lock down enough enemies that everyone else in the party can put a lot more focus into that one single target and kill it. unlike the monk, they can do that from range, which means they don't need to worry about all the enemies surrounding them and killing them. of course, maybe you're going to argue that your monk can then just dodge... well, on top of spending ki on things other than stunning (so that's fewer stuns for you), you have now also committed your bonus action. no flurry, you're getting only 2 attacks for a chance to stun, and your damage went straight down to "valour bard, minus any spell support" which is much less impressive.

oh, and as an added kicker, the other controllers all get to do that with their primary attack attribute. the monk needs to decide whether they're going to have the wisdom to make their stuns stick or dexterity to make their attacks land in the first place until very high level.

- Have relatively powerful subclasses that offer dramatically more than most rogue or barbarian or fighter subclasses (though not more than outliers like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight)

do they? some of their subclasses are better at this, some are worse, but most of them cost a bunch of ki to use their abilities. ki that you already need to be simultaneously using to improve your offence, your defence, your ability to crowd control enemies, and your mobility. where are you getting all this ki from to maintain all of these promised benefits exactly?

say what you will about the subclasses offered to the fighter, rogue, and barbarian (personally I think rogue and fighter have some options that offer at least as much as any monk subclass, though admittedly not all of them are good), but generally speaking they don't require you to lose your fighter, rogue, or barbarian class features to do them (and in the rare case that they do, people are quick to point out how crap those subclasses are). champion might be a bit of a lame duck, but at least you don't need to spend your second wind if you want to get the bonus to initiative or burn your action surge to be allowed one improved critical chance. when a fighter, rogue, or barbarian subclass has resources that you need to spend to use the subclass features, it is ADDED, not taken away from a resource that is already stretched thin.

- eventually gain a complete suite of defensive abilities that make them one of them difficult to kill. Once again, they just get this. It's not part of a build.

do they really "just get this" though? or hey wait, that's odd, it looks like most of them... and if this is starting to sound repetitive, maybe you're starting to catch on to something... *cost ki*.

ki that you're already using faster than you can get it to power subclass abilities, mobility, offence, single-target crowd control, you name it the monk probably has to spend ki to do it.

and that pretty much sums it up. everything costs ki. and bonus actions. boy does this class love eating up your bonus action and preventing you from using the other features.

you get a few rounds of functioning like a real class per short rest, and the rest of the time you're kinda like a melee rogue, except with less damage.
You make a lot of claims here that you don't support at all. You act like monk AC doesn't keep up even though it objectively does keep up and even surpasses most other classes for resourceless AC throughout the entire game. 16 at 1 is as good as most classes can get without giving up damage for a shield (only a fighter with chainmail and defense style beats it) and 17 at four is similarly good. As the game goes on, it is not really that hard to find bracers of armor and push yourself up to 22 or 23, which is as good as all but the tankiest classes (or those abusing shield) can reach.

13 damage a turn at level 1 is similarly as good as any class that didn't get a VHuman start and 24.5 at level five is only surpassed by characters who've invested in feats like PAM and GWM.

In exchange for damage output dropping behind other classes after level 11 you get 20+ extra feat of movement, proficiency in all saves, evasion, extra damage and survivability from the subclass, and yes, ki abilities, which are very strong when applied to a chassis that's already completely functional without it.

Monks are less flexible and thus can't be pushed to the same heights as say, EKs or Hexblades, and they almost can't help being melee specialists, but they're functional as a class and its stupid to pretend that going for GWM of all things is a good idea for a monk.

[SharkForce]

You make a lot of claims here that you don't support at all. You act like monk AC doesn't keep up even though it objectively does keep up and even surpasses most other classes for resourceless AC throughout the entire game. 16 at 1 is as good as most classes can get without giving up damage for a shield (only a fighter with chainmail and defense style beats it) and 17 at four is similarly good. As the game goes on, it is not really that hard to find bracers of armor and push yourself up to 22 or 23, which is as good as all but the tankiest classes (or those abusing shield) can reach.

13 damage a turn at level 1 is similarly as good as any class that didn't get a VHuman start and 24.5 at level five is only surpassed by characters who've invested in feats like PAM and GWM.

In exchange for damage output dropping behind other classes after level 11 you get 20+ extra feat of movement, proficiency in all saves, evasion, extra damage and survivability from the subclass, and yes, ki abilities, which are very strong when applied to a chassis that's already completely functional without it.

Monks are less flexible and thus can't be pushed to the same heights as say, EKs or Hexblades, and they almost can't help being melee specialists, but they're functional as a class and its stupid to pretend that going for GWM of all things is a good idea for a monk.

I never said they should take GWM.

and yes. their damage is decent early. and then it just kinda stays there. forever. while other similar classes keep improving. that's part of the problem.

same with their AC. decent early. stays there indefinitely. and no, bracers of armour (a single magic item that is hard to find and requires an attunement slot) is not the same as magic armour and shields that are much more common and which don't require attunement.

all that other stuff? that would be a whole lot more meaningful if they had the offensive power to back it up to make them a priority target or to make use of being in the right place to do something. and also if they didn't have to spend ki for every tiny little thing such that they're hardly ever going to get to use all of it.

and that's basically the problem. monk spends resources to be where others already are, or at the very least pays a much higher cost in resources to achieve lower effectiveness.

[stoutstien]

I mean finding bracers of defense or finding the exact type of magical armor you want and a Magical shield seem like a wash. Both are 100% dm fiat so are best left out of the conversation unless you actually have them in a certain game. Attunement and item rarity are also random with little sense of reason. Could just as well give the monk a cloak of protection which is a better item and is a lower rarity.

[strangebloke]

Assuming no magic items are present in a game is just as big of an assumption as thinking that all magic items are present in a game and warps the discussion to a significant degree. As just one example, in a game with no magic items the monk gains a significant advantage over other martials by having easy access to magical damage.

Typically a monk needs few magic items relative to other melee characters so bracers of armor is one of the few items they'll be seeking out or asking for from randomly generated loot, which greatly increases their chances of getting it. The cleric and valor bard and fighter might squabble over a +1 shield but there's little argument against giving the bracers of armor to the monk.

But even ignoring magic items, the Monk still has good AC that continues scaling long after other classes have stopped. It's not "the best in the game" but it easily keeps parity with most other builds throughout the game, without imposing disadvantage on stealth checks, something that is a consistent issue for medium/heavy armor users.

Damage dropoff after level 11 when subclasses are not considered isn't a serious concern, especially as flurry really ceases to be a tradeoff around that point. (if your monk isn't getting enough short rests to use his abilities consistently, that's a DM problem.)

[LumenPlacidum]

I wrote what might be a relevant guide for the OP, https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628738-Breaking-Face-A-Guide-to-Strength-Monks

[mr_stibbons]

I mean, can you rely on any mechanics that are in the player facing sections of the rules?

DMs can just has easily say "yeah it doesn't work like that at my table".

But fair, this is an optional rule. Do you know people who don't allow Medium creatures to climb on Huge ones?


I have never seen a player even ask if climbing on a creature is an option, nor seen a DM suggest taking that action. That's how obscure those rules are.



I think that says more about so-called optimizers than those feats or anything else.


It's a simple fact that building around those feats provide better damage for marital characters than almost any other strategy, and that you can pick up bonus feats with a race at level 1. One of the big things keeping monks back is that they don't have access to those feats or and similarly powerful feats, like Polearm master or Magic initiate for booming blade as a rogue. Insulting people who point out these facts doesn't change the facts.

[Chronic]

Very, very simply:

Monks

Have decent damage output without any investment of feats or resources
Get good AC (17) by level 4 without any issue
Have amazing mobility with zero investment (love how white room scenarios always ignore this)
Have the single most powerful lockdown ability in the game this side of diviner wizard. Forcing four save-or-sucks on an enemy in a single round is ridiculous. Yes, the monk has to hit them, but see above.
Have relatively powerful subclasses that offer dramatically more than most rogue or barbarian or fighter subclasses (though not more than outliers like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight)
eventually gain a complete suite of defensive abilities that make them one of them difficult to kill. Once again, they just get this. It's not part of a build.


Like, wow, fifth level kensei over here, dodging as a bonus action with an AC of 19, and running 40 feet a turn, seems super weak. Shadow monk, casting pass without trace, and darkness and and teleporting 60 feet every turn for free, seems super weak.

In my experience the only real problem is that they can't fight efficiently at range, which is a common issue even for really strong classes like paladins.

GWM and Sharpshooter are a waste of time most of the time unless you really must fixate on damage over everything else.

I'd even argue than a few subclass are decent à range. Kensei are great archer, sun soul have ranged attacks, 4 elements have spells and ability with range.
My opinion is that I have never seen a monk being useless in a campaign (I am not talking about the occasional situation that can happen to any PC, but in general.) They may not be the best at much but they are simply versatile characters.
I love monks, my friends love monks, I always love playing them, playing with them, or GMing them (knowing that at some point they gonna stun a big bad to death and make the players laugh like hyenas).

[Unoriginal]

I have never seen a player even ask if climbing on a creature is an option, nor seen a DM suggest taking that action. That's how obscure those rules are.

Do players and DMs at the tables you've been and seen only want/try to do things that they know are in the rules?



It's a simple fact that building around those feats provide better damage for marital characters than almost any other strategy, and that you can pick up bonus feats with a race at level 1. One of the big things keeping monks back is that they don't have access to those feats or and similarly powerful feats, like Polearm master or Magic initiate for booming blade as a rogue. Insulting people who point out these facts doesn't change the facts.

What is not a fact is that having those feats/benefiting from those feats or similar options or not make the difference between a strong and a weak character, or an optimized and an unoptimized character.

What is not a fact is that you can determine how good a character is based on one factor.

No one is arguing that the Monk will be able to do as much nova damage as a Paladin, or as much as a GWM Fighter. That does *not* mean that the Monk's damage output is "pathetic", like some have claimed.

Or to use another example, you're not crippling your Variant Human Fighter if you take Telekinetic as your feat rather than Polearm Master.

Also, plenty of so-called optimizers will walk past actual optimization without recognizing it.

[mr_stibbons]

Do players and DMs at the tables you've been and seen only want/try to do things that they know are in the rules?

Yes for players. Maybe there are more freewheeling tables, but in general I don't see players trying things that are outside of the rules in combat unless the DM is heavily signposting that said thing is a viable option. Lots of players have had bad experiences with going outside of the rules, where a DM provides an underwhelming reward, locks any benefit behind a hard skill check or worse. People don't like tanking risks, and they really don't like taking risks in a co-operative activity where the entire rest of the players will have to work harder when your longshot risk fails to pay off. There's an unspoken but significant social pressure to pull your weight when initiative is rolled at my tables.

Dm's certainly depend. Some of them have been more willing to judge odd actions, but a DM ruling a creative solution has a noticeable tendency to not be as good as taking options on your character's sheet. Whether that's an intentional signal from the DM or just DM's not being up the fairly tricky task of balancing these options on the fly, I don't know.

That's my experience. Yours might be different. I'd appreciate if you don't disparage the Dm's and players that I play with in response.


What is not a fact is that having those feats/benefiting from those feats or similar options or not make the difference between a strong and a weak character, or an optimized and an unoptimized character.

What is not a fact is that you can determine how good a character is based on one factor.

No one is arguing that the Monk will be able to do as much nova damage as a Paladin, or as much as a GWM Fighter. That does *not* mean that the Monk's damage output is "pathetic", like some have claimed.

Or to use another example, you're not crippling your Variant Human Fighter if you take Telekinetic as your feat rather than Polearm Master.

Plenty of so-called optimizers will walk past actual optimization without recognizing it.

What would you consider an optimized character then? Maximizing damage is not something that every character needs to do, but the fact that a class cannot build in a specific direction is something that should be noted. A monk cannot keep up with great weapon or archer optimizing for damage. Sure, it's not "pathetic" but it should be kept in mind. And people criticizing the monk in this thread have been avoiding solely critiquing the monks damage, they've been saying the damage isn't great, and they don't think the rest of the kit provides enough to compensate.

[SharkForce]

Assuming no magic items are present in a game is just as big of an assumption as thinking that all magic items are present in a game and warps the discussion to a significant degree. As just one example, in a game with no magic items the monk gains a significant advantage over other martials by having easy access to magical damage.

Typically a monk needs few magic items relative to other melee characters so bracers of armor is one of the few items they'll be seeking out or asking for from randomly generated loot, which greatly increases their chances of getting it. The cleric and valor bard and fighter might squabble over a +1 shield but there's little argument against giving the bracers of armor to the monk.

But even ignoring magic items, the Monk still has good AC that continues scaling long after other classes have stopped. It's not "the best in the game" but it easily keeps parity with most other builds throughout the game, without imposing disadvantage on stealth checks, something that is a consistent issue for medium/heavy armor users.

Damage dropoff after level 11 when subclasses are not considered isn't a serious concern, especially as flurry really ceases to be a tradeoff around that point. (if your monk isn't getting enough short rests to use his abilities consistently, that's a DM problem.)

wizards, sorcerers, moon druids, and anyone with the ability to convince another person to cast mage armour (or have obtained that ability through a feat) could all be happy to take bracers of armour. some of those are reasonably rare, but some of them are downright common.

additionally, for every set of bracers of armour you find, you are likely to find several magical armour and/or shield options.

certainly, playing with no magic items is a possibility, but it would be pretty unusual in my experience. as in, I have never played in or even heard of an actual campaign where that happens. less or more magic items, sure, but none? not a chance.