Switching from 3.5 to pathfinder as the base major differences?

[Lorddenorstrus]

I'm in the process of reading as much of Pathfinders content as I can. To learn differences, there's a few oddities I've seen so far. Why is Disable Device Dex instead of Int and such?

Is there anything the board would like to point out. I've been running entirely 3.5 with a smidge of allowed pf content like a class or a feat someones linked me for a long time. But I'm trying out pf as the base to see if there is a helpful change in class balance. Gonna run a tiny campaign once i think I've read enough to get familiar.

[Draconi Redfir]

as a general rule, pathfinder tries to eliminate "dead levels", meaning you'll always get SOMETHING new at each level up, even if it's just a normal feat from leveling up. i don't know of any major balance changes, but i do know a lot of classes get new and more diverse abilities. Archetypes and additional classes make it very easy to make a wide variety of characters too.

you don't get warlocks, which is a shame. but beyond that, it's pretty close to 3.5. if you know 3.5, you pretty much know pathfinder.

[Crake]

The main differences you'll run into are the fact that feats are at every odd level instead of 1st and every 3 levels, skills being 1 skill point per rank regardless, as well as many skills being bundled together, as well as the CMB/CMD system for maneuvers instead of just attack rolls/raw ability checks.

[pabelfly]

Skills are improved in Pathfinder. You don't get bonus skills at first level, and there are no half-ranks, but you do get a +3 bonus for points in class skills. Its a much neater system.

Alternate class options are better too - they'll often change a whole raft of things at once, but there are some pretty interesting options to be found.

One more major difference is that there is no first-party psionics system, as far as I'm aware.

[Kitsuneymg]

CMB/CMD instead of the hodgepodge of opposed checks 3.5 used. Archetypes are all or nothing, not like ACFs at all.

Read all class features again. They can work subtly different. See share spell class feature for an example.

The biggest one: the third party stuff has some great winners in it. Spheres of Power in particular.

[Lorddenorstrus]

as a general rule, pathfinder tries to eliminate "dead levels", meaning you'll always get SOMETHING new at each level up, even if it's just a normal feat from leveling up. i don't know of any major balance changes, but i do know a lot of classes get new and more diverse abilities. Archetypes and additional classes make it very easy to make a wide variety of characters too.

you don't get warlocks, which is a shame. but beyond that, it's pretty close to 3.5. if you know 3.5, you pretty much know pathfinder.

If I keep it for the future I'll probably allow people to back access non existent classes. So far Warlock and Dreadnecromancer are 2 major ones I've noticed. A few of my players have a thing for necromancy and just a generic cleric or wizard casting Animate Dead really wouldn't cut it. Warlock, well it just gets used a lot when Gestalt optimization is thrown on the table every now and then.

The majority of stuff seems to be either the same or close enough I'll be fine. CMD is gonna be hard for me to get around for a bit, but it'll probably function better. 3.5s Grapple was just wonky and unless someone ran a Tripper nobody does it. I don't think I've ever seen someone Disarm or Sunder.

[Psyren]

Read the spells thoroughly as some changed in ways that can catch you off guard if you're used to 3.5. Same with monsters and their SLA/Su abilities.

On the combat maneuver end of things, sunder is much more viable now because (a) magical equipment can be repaired and restored much more easily, and (b) you can break equipment without destroying it, meaning that even if you don't have the chance to repair something it can still be somewhat useful (or even sellable).

All in all the differences are many, but small enough that if you're used to 3.5 the learning curve is fairly shallow. If you're new to tabletop as a whole however it's easy to get overwhelmed in the minutiae. (For new players especially, handbooks are your friend!)

[RandomPeasant]

All in all the differences are many, but small enough that if you're used to 3.5 the learning curve is fairly shallow. If you're new to tabletop as a whole however it's easy to get overwhelmed in the minutiae. (For new players especially, handbooks are your friend!)

I disagree with that. The learning curve is much worse if you are used to 3.5, because there are so many places where there are minor differences. If you're learning either system new, they're comparably complicated. But if you've played 3.5 for a long time, Pathfinder is absolutely filled with things that will trip you up because you didn't realized they'd changed.

[Psyren]

I disagree with that. The learning curve is much worse if you are used to 3.5, because there are so many places where there are minor differences. If you're learning either system new, they're comparably complicated. But if you've played 3.5 for a long time, Pathfinder is absolutely filled with things that will trip you up because you didn't realized they'd changed.

I disagree - it's easier to move from one rules-heavy system to a similar one, than it is to step foot into one from scratch.

Yes there's a ton of small differences, but most of them are pretty intuitive - closing issues like being able to sell walls of iron or transform a statuary into an army of zombies for instance, or monks not being proficient with unarmed strikes etc.

[RandomPeasant]

Yes there's a ton of small differences, but most of them are pretty intuitive - closing issues like being able to sell walls of iron or transform a statuary into an army of zombies for instance, or monks not being proficient with unarmed strikes etc.

Or changing the hit die of the Wizard. Or all those spell edits you yourself acknowledge. Or changing how combat maneuvers work. Or changing the feat progression. There are huge numbers of changes, and they don't follow any particularly predictable pattern. The examples you give aren't even particularly related. "Sell walls of iron" and "monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes" aren't remotely the same type of problem.

[KillianHawkeye]

As an example of a really minor change that caught me off guard when I started switching from 3.5 to Pathfinder, incorporeal creatures take 50% damage from spells and magic weapons rather than having a 50% chance of taking damage. They still have a 50% chance of being affected by non-damaging spells and effects.

[Melayl]

I have a mostly finished Warlock adaptation...

[Kurald Galain]

Why is Disable Device Dex instead of Int and such?
Because despite the name, it is primarily based on Open Locks, which was always dex-based.


But I'm trying out pf as the base to see if there is a helpful change in class balance.
Major things to watch out for,
Rogues can sneak attack undead, constructs, and plants; making them much more easily viable.
Note the Dirty Trick and Reposition combat maneuvers. Note also some fun martial feats like Lunge and Step Up.
Casters don't run out of spells, because they get school/bloodline powers as well as infinite cantrips. Don't bother investing in crossbows, it's completely unnecessary.
In-combat healing is viable on any class with the channel energy ability.
Polymorph effects add to your physical stats instead of overwriting them.
There are several good "gish" classes, so if you want a gish you just grab one of those from level one, instead of having to build towards a multiclass/prestige class combo half a dozen levels later. Also, PF gishes cast while attacking, instead of having to pick between "attack or cast" every turn.

[gijoemike]

CMB/CMD instead of the hodgepodge of opposed checks 3.5 used. Archetypes are all or nothing, not like ACFs at all.

Read all class features again. They can work subtly different. See share spell class feature for an example.

The biggest one: the third party stuff has some great winners in it. Spheres of Power in particular.

I added the emphasis. It has the same name, gained at the same time, and is from the same class. Don't think it works the same. Examples
Sneak Attack - can natively hurt corporal undead and lots of things previously immune. But not oozes or elementals.
Smite Evil - no where near similar. Totally new power. They should have renamed it.

Spells - Same concept. many spells have been slightly tweaked. Many now allow a save at the end of each round.

Shield - 3.5 mentions it is like a tower shield of force. Pathfinder removes this phrasing. So small flavor elements have been altered.

Glitter Dust in 3.5 is one save at cast time or suck.
Glitter Dust in 3.5 can end the blinding effect at the end of each round. Meaning that any hostile saves at casting and again at the end of their turn. This means 2 chances to save before the caster can act again. If the hostile is next in init order then the rogue cannot even stab them in time.

polymorph - completely rewritten.


EDIT:
The whole prestige class game where you have to plan your prereq feat 4 levels in advance is practically gone. Just use the stackable archetypes from the base classes. The few prestige classes that are in pathfinder are not worth it, except for specific edge case. The idea was at lvl 20 all characters would have a capstone ability and if you ever multiclass you lose out. With that said Multi classing is alive and well but with so many establish gish base classes the need for the multicasting is far less.


2nd Edit:

I feel that the cheese of pathfinder isn't a deep as 3.5 but the breadth of cheese is greater. Caster are still supreme but the gap between most casters and martials are much smaller. The most balanced classes are the PF base classes not present in 3.5 like the gunslinger, oracle, and inquisitor. A party of those characters is fairly balanced. If you are looking at either monk or rogue, make sure it is the unchained versions which are updated. It wrecks the archetypes of those classes but the unchained versions are WAY better.

[Psyren]

Or changing the hit die of the Wizard. Or all those spell edits you yourself acknowledge. Or changing how combat maneuvers work. Or changing the feat progression. There are huge numbers of changes, and they don't follow any particularly predictable pattern. The examples you give aren't even particularly related. "Sell walls of iron" and "monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes" aren't remotely the same type of problem.

"Nobody has d4 HD anymore" is hardly differential calculus.
"Reread the spell text" is something most people will do in either edition, at the moment of preparation or casting.
Combat maneuvers are much simpler now.
Oh no, more feats, how will we cope.

[pabelfly]

I personally found it easy to switch from 3.5 to Pathfinder. There's some time spent learning a class and abilities, perhaps reading through a handbook for advice, but that's the same if I dive into a 3.5 class I haven't had a lot of experience with.

[RandomPeasant]

"Nobody has d4 HD anymore" is hardly differential calculus.

I never said any of the changes were hard to understand. What they are is surprising. How often do you consciously check the hit die of a class? If you've played Wizards for 10 years, you're not going to natively think "hey, what if I have more hit points for no reason" when rolling up your Pathfinder Wizard. And the system is full of things that are like that.


Combat maneuvers are much simpler now.

And that's a great advantage to a new player. But if you've already learned how 3.5's version works, learning a new system is more work, even if that system is simpler.

[Maat Mons]

Weird thing it took me a long time to notice. Pathfinder lets you retrain hit points. So with a little time and money, your hp can always wind up as if you'd rolled the maximum at every level.

Kind of a cool thing, human Sorcerers can have 60 non-cantrip spells known at 20th level. And they (or anyone, really) can craft most types of items without needing to know the prerequisite spells (the major exceptions being scrolls, wands, staffs, and potions). So Sorcerers get some nice boosts over 3.5, but are still overshadowed by Arcanists. (Arcanist is the name of a new Pathfinder class, no longer just a general term for arcane spellcaster.)

[Kitsuneymg]

Warlock’s “replacement” is the kineticist. It’s not great. But the warlock wasn’t either.

The Avowed is a 3rd party warlock uplift that also adds a ton of other patrons. Never used it, but it’s gonna for Warlock the best.

Spheres of Power does a great job of making thematic casters. Destruction is basically blast shape/type invocations and Death lets you animate dead from level 1. Also 3rd party, by Drop Dead Studios. My favorite 3.X supplement ever.

Path of War is Tome of Battle, but significantly powered up. Ultimate Psionics is obviously Psiconics uplifted to pathfinder. And Akashic Mysteries is Soul Melds for pathfinder. All 3rd party; all by Dreamscarred Press. I’m less enthusiastic about them than most forum goers.

[Psyren]

I never said any of the changes were hard to understand. What they are is surprising. How often do you consciously check the hit die of a class? If you've played Wizards for 10 years, you're not going to natively think "hey, what if I have more hit points for no reason" when rolling up your Pathfinder Wizard. And the system is full of things that are like that.

I played 3.5 for years. I checked the hit dice of my wizard once, when I realized that no class in the game used a d4 anymore. And that was a great moment, because for health, d4s suck.


And that's a great advantage to a new player. But if you've already learned how 3.5's version works, learning a new system is more work, even if that system is simpler.

Learning multi-step opposed rolls were gone for most maneuvers was similarly a big selling point for me.



Path of War is Tome of Battle, but significantly powered up. Ultimate Psionics is obviously Psiconics uplifted to pathfinder. And Akashic Mysteries is Soul Melds for pathfinder. All 3rd party; all by Dreamscarred Press. I’m less enthusiastic about them than most forum goers.

Adding to this list - the Pactmaker (formerly Occultist) from Radiance House is a PF conversion of the Binder, powered up considerably and made much more interesting. It's also fully backwards compatible with the 3.5 one's vestiges.

[Railak]

I haven't noticed anyone mention skill DCs, most are not a roll vs roll, except stealth/perception, bluff/sense motive.
So read over the skills cause how a few used to work, function different and or easier.
Combat maneuvers are also not roll vs roll

[vasilidor]

Things like Glitterdust and hold person (as has been mentioned before) grant a saving throw at the end of the targets turn. well, hold person grants a saving throw as a full round action. so bare minimum if they failed the first save they have to deal with one turn with the suck effect on them. I have had games where that one turn made all the difference.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Well thanks guys I've done a lot of reading and I think I've got most of what I need memorized. Anything else I'll have to double check as needed.

I've decided to use a prebuilt module to test things for now. I've always been interested in an Egyptian ish themed campaign so I'll be trying the Half Dead City out with my group. Should be interesting. Although I am debating if I should scale things up slightly as I'll have 5 PCs rather than the designed 4.

[Rynjin]

Well thanks guys I've done a lot of reading and I think I've got most of what I need memorized. Anything else I'll have to double check as needed.

I've decided to use a prebuilt module to test things for now. I've always been interested in an Egyptian ish themed campaign so I'll be trying the Half Dead City out with my group. Should be interesting. Although I am debating if I should scale things up slightly as I'll have 5 PCs rather than the designed 4.

Mummy's Mask is a meatgrinder for most parties so there shouldn't be a need to scale things up. Everything in book 1 having Hardness is borderline cruel for most characters, since it means only your fighty types with huge 2H weapons can really do any damage. Not to mention the multiple group wide save or die encounters.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Mummy's Mask is a meatgrinder for most parties so there shouldn't be a need to scale things up. Everything in book 1 having Hardness is borderline cruel for most characters, since it means only your fighty types with huge 2H weapons can really do any damage. Not to mention the multiple group wide save or die encounters.

I haven't read anything past Half Dead City. I didn't think it was that bad tbh. The trap in the first tomb with malfunctioning water is an amazing trap I thought. And overall doesn't seem to over bearing. I was minorly concerned that a lot of DCs were near 20 and I don't see 1st lvl characters entering into there succeeding DC 20s... often. I finished mapping + Dynamic Lighting and tokens for the first dungeon just an hour ago and was about to read and start work on the 2nd map soon.

I appreciate any warnings for certain sections that you think might need to be modified. (Edit: Also suggestion for Slow, Medium or Fast for Exp progression chart?)

[Rynjin]

I haven't read anything past Half Dead City. I didn't think it was that bad tbh. The trap in the first tomb with malfunctioning water is an amazing trap I thought. And overall doesn't seem to over bearing. I was minorly concerned that a lot of DCs were near 20 and I don't see 1st lvl characters entering into there succeeding DC 20s... often. I finished mapping + Dynamic Lighting and tokens for the first dungeon just an hour ago and was about to read and start work on the 2nd map soon.

I appreciate any warnings for certain sections that you think might need to be modified. (Edit: Also suggestion for Slow, Medium or Fast for Exp progression chart?)

The Sandman encounter in the second act of book 1 (still the Half-Dead City) can easily TPK a party. The DC isn't super high (14) but it's high enough that your average non-Wis based character has about a 50/50 shot of getting put to sleep and it hits the whole party.

Re: XP, join the modern era and nix XP entirely, go to milestone leveling. Paizo APs even tell you what level characters should be when they hit certain parts near the start of the book, on page 6.

[CopperElfCleric]

Pathfinder is part of the D20 system. So no matter what you choose it all fits and works. Pathfinder is a bit more powerful as far as classes and PtC's and mechanics. But... FR d&d or greyhawk are less powerful with the same basic mechanics.

Either way you win. In the Forgotten Realms we play a magic heavy, epic campaign. If we were to do that in PF, everything would need to be upgraded. Everything in PF is more powerful in my opinion.

[arkol]

Weird thing it took me a long time to notice. Pathfinder lets you retrain hit points. So with a little time and money, your hp can always wind up as if you'd rolled the maximum at every level.


Wait what?

[Psyren]

Wait what?

It takes a long time (3 days/hit point with a trainer, 6 days/hit point if you're doing it alone.) But if you have that kind of time, yes, you can eventually increase your hit points to what they would have been if you had gotten max rolls every level.

[Efrate]

CMD is AC for pretty much all combat maneuvers(bull rush trip dusarm etc). Most things that add to ac add to cmd, as most things that add to attack rolls add to cmb.

For mummy mask beware swarms. PAIZO loves throwing swarms at low levels that are immune to weapon damage.

[vasilidor]

CMD is AC for pretty much all combat maneuvers(bull rush trip dusarm etc). Most things that add to ac add to cmd, as most things that add to attack rolls add to cmb.

For mummy mask beware swarms. PAIZO loves throwing swarms at low levels that are immune to weapon damage.

yeah, watch out for throwing swarms at people. a level 4 group of dwarves without AOE damage is going to die. just take their character sheets and start a new game, unless you let them do things that are not covered in the rules but can work against real world swarming insects like dive into a patch of deep mud and roll around.

[Psyren]

I hear the swarm thing a lot, but a lot of groups forget that diminutive/fine swarms are dumb and usually slow. If you don't yet have a means of dealing with them (by which I mean "setting a fire" most of the time) - just leave.

[Rynjin]

I hear the swarm thing a lot, but a lot of groups forget that diminutive/fine swarms are dumb and usually slow. If you don't yet have a means of dealing with them (by which I mean "setting a fire" most of the time) - just leave.

The problem, of course, is that eventually you need to go back, and sometimes you won't have found enough treasure to buy a bunch of Alchemist's Fire (or have a place to).

Throwing diminutive/fine swarms at a party below level 3-4 is just mean.

[Melayl]

The problem, of course, is that eventually you need to go back, and sometimes you won't have found enough treasure to buy a bunch of Alchemist's Fire (or have a place to).

Throwing diminutive/fine swarms at a party below level 3-4 is just mean.

Alchemist's fire might be expensive, but a few quarts of oil and a torch are pretty cheap and easy to find.

[Psyren]

The problem, of course, is that eventually you need to go back, and sometimes you won't have found enough treasure to buy a bunch of Alchemist's Fire (or have a place to).

Throwing diminutive/fine swarms at a party below level 3-4 is just mean.

You don't need alchemists fire to start a fire. Oil and a torch do just fine.

[Rynjin]

You don't need alchemists fire to start a fire. Oil and a torch do just fine.

Oil and a torch takes a full round action to toss, and either only has a 50% chance of working, or requires you to walk up and pour it directly on one of the squares the swarm occupies, and then have someone else light it (putting you both in easy swarm range) for the massive benefit of dealing...1d3 damage. You can deal another 1d3 if you can prevent the swarm from moving out of it for another round, I guess.

I feel like a lot of people don't look up the rules on these tried and true adventurer's tactics before suggesting them.

Edit: For reference, the lowest CR swarm this tactic would be needed for (the spider swarm) has 9 HP, so you are physically incapable of killing it with a single use of this tactic, as the max damage you can deal is 8.

[Psyren]

Oil and a torch takes a full round action to toss, and either only has a 50% chance of working, or requires you to walk up and pour it directly on one of the squares the swarm occupies, and then have someone else light it (putting you both in easy swarm range) for the massive benefit of dealing...1d3 damage. You can deal another 1d3 if you can prevent the swarm from moving out of it for another round, I guess.

I feel like a lot of people don't look up the rules on these tried and true adventurer's tactics before suggesting them.

"Easy swarm range?" Targeting a grid intersection is AC 5, so even at 5 range increments away you have a decent shot of hitting it. And chances are the swarm itself won't be aware of you. If it is, retreat and try again, they're mindless.

An adventure who gormlessly strolls into an anthill or whatever like a knob deserves their fate.

[Rynjin]

"Easy swarm range?" Targeting a grid intersection is AC 5, so even at 5 range increments away you have a decent shot of hitting it. And chances are the swarm itself won't be aware of you. If it is, retreat and try again, they're mindless.

An adventure who gormlessly strolls into an anthill or whatever like a knob deserves their fate.

"Easy swarm range" means spreading out the oil onto a square and then lighting it requires you to be adjacent to the square. Like I said, just look up the rules. It ain't that hard. I'll do it for you.


A pint of lamp oil burns for 6 hours in a common lantern or lamp. You can also use a flask of lamp oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.

You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.

Edit: I also feel like you don't understand how swarms are typically used in Pathfinder APs. Here's a quick example: you walk into a room, it is mostly empty, save for a destroyed bureau and a mattress.

If you walk further into the room, a swarm of centipedes comes pouring out of the mattress. They were not detectable before.

This is an actual encounter.

Edit 2: If you want an example from the AP the OP is actually thinking of running, there is a magical trap (DC 22 to detect) in the first dungeon that summons a CR 3 cockroach swarm (26 HP by the way) directly onto the person who opens a door.

[Psyren]

Like I said, just look up the rules. It ain't that hard. I'll do it for you.

It's a full-round action to prepare it with a fuse. Simply throwing a jar of oil to coat a square doesn't need all that. Maybe read the rules if you're going to snark about them?

Or, you know, prepare some oil fuses in advance, before combat starts, if you really want the grenade versions. You're sneaking up on bugs, not mindflayers with scouting parties.

[Rynjin]

It's a full-round action to prepare it with a fuse. Simply throwing a jar of oil to coat a square doesn't need all that. Maybe read the rules if you're going to snark about them?

It's a full round action to light it up normally too, under the most generous interpretation of the rules. Move action "Manipulate Item", standard "Manipulate Item", and it requires you to be adjacent. You can't just toss the oil to coat a square. That is not an option you have, see above.


Or, you know, prepare some oil fuses in advance, before combat starts, if you really want the grenade versions. You're sneaking up on bugs, not mindflayers with scouting parties.

Neat, anyway, once you've done that explain to me how dealing 1d3 damage (at best; it has a 16 touch so a pretty solid chance of avoiding damage even if you pass the 50/50 it works in the first place) to a swarm with 26 HP (which as mentioned is summoned right on top of you) is going to save you.

It feels like you are really attached to defending this position of "swarms aren't dangerous" and coming up with increasingly flimsy reasons to justify it instead of accepting you didn't have the full context of the situations involved with these encounters.

[Psyren]

It feels like you are really attached to defending this position of "swarms aren't dangerous"

Uh, where did I say they're "not dangerous?" What I said was that adventurers with half a brain cell can deal with them. Animals and bugs don't like fire, it doesn't take a doctorate to figure that out.

If your GM plays them like they're constructs or outsiders then of course they'll be under-CR'ed.

[Rynjin]

Uh, where did I say they're "not dangerous?" What I said was that adventurers with half a brain cell can deal with them. Animals and bugs don't like fire, it doesn't take a doctorate to figure that out.

If your GM plays them like they're constructs or outsiders then of course they'll be under-CR'ed.

So your implication is that on taking any sort of fire damage, a swarm (or any animal?) would just automatically flee or something? That feels like something that would be mentioned in a statblock if it were meant to be the case.

[Psyren]

So your implication is that on taking any sort of fire damage, a swarm (or any animal?) would just automatically flee or something? That feels like something that would be mentioned in a statblock if it were meant to be the case.

If they don't, that's even better. Start a fire and wait a few minutes, their statblock doesn't say they flee so they won't. Problem solved.

[Rynjin]

If they don't, that's even better. Start a fire and wait a few minutes, their statblock doesn't say they flee so they won't. Problem solved.

That oil only burns for 2 rounds, though. And again, doesn't account for the primary circumstance these swarms are used in published material where they just kind of appear right on top of you.

The solution is not at all as simple as you're making it out to be.

[Lorddenorstrus]

To be fair the 1st swarm in the Ahk what ever tomb... can be countered by the 2 vials of Alchemist fire they are given for free from a dead body right after entering. Seems like intentionally good design to be honest. Gives them a counter for the upcoming swarm. We'll be starting in a few days people have been really busy so I suppose I'll come back and let y'all know if they got absolutely destroyed or not.

[Kurald Galain]

Lol, any adventuring party dumb enough to lose to a zero-intelligence insect swarm deserves what they get.

[Psyren]

That oil only burns for 2 rounds, though.

The nice thing about fire is that you can keep it going pretty easily. No one's saying to throw your oil at a puddle.


And again, doesn't account for the primary circumstance these swarms are used in published material where they just kind of appear right on top of you.

And once again I agree that swarms are dangerous. But that's no reason for an adventurer to lose their sense. If you truly can't kill them just retreat, then eiither get around them or do what you need to do from a safer distance.


Lol, any adventuring party dumb enough to lose to a zero-intelligence insect swarm deserves what they get.

Bingo.

[Rynjin]

The nice thing about fire is that you can keep it going pretty easily. No one's saying to throw your oil at a puddle.

So you're...sticking around the 5 ft. square that's on fire to toss more oil on and keep it burning while the swarm kills you? I'm just genuinely having a hard time understanding why you think building this fire magically solves all your problems.

This isn't Valheim, you can't just run around placing bonfires instantly and kite the enemy until they die.

[Psyren]

So you're...sticking around the 5 ft. square that's on fire to toss more oil on and keep it burning while the swarm kills you?

A flask of oil is a splash weapon. You can throw splash weapons. Like, through the air.
Also, fire burns other things besides oil. Even in D&D.

The fact that you are insisting on using these tools in the least tactical way possible is a you problem.

[Rynjin]

A flask of oil is a splash weapon. You can throw splash weapons. Like, through the air.
Also, fire burns other things besides oil. Even in D&D.

The fact that you are insisting on using these tools in the least tactical way possible is a you problem.

I really can't have this conversation with you if you refuse to read the rules even when I go out of my way to provide them FOR you. If you throw it as a splash weapon, it's a d3 that has a 50% chance of working, and then does not continue to burn. Period, end of. If you want it to keep burning, you need to pour it into an adjacent square. It's not a matter of tactics, it's a matter of you completely failing (willfully?) to understand the rules on this.

A lot of people (including myself) houserule it to work differently (it makes absolutely zero sense that it can burn for 6 hours in a lamp, but only for TWELVE SECONDS outside of it), but that's not really relevant to this particular discussion.

And yes, fire can burn other things besides oil...but you'd need to stick around to PROVIDE those things to keep the fire going, which presents the exact same problems I already mentioned. You can't just chuck sticks on a small fire from 30 feet away and expect them to burn. I dunno if you've ever actually tried it in real life, but it doesn't really work out very well unless the fire is already blazing immensely, like a pretty big bonfire. And we don't really have a "RAW contradicts reality" bit to fall back on here.

[Tzardok]

What Psyren meant is "throw the unprepared oil flask at the already existent fire". For that you don't need to stay around adjactent. Also, there is usually stuff on the ground that will burn if you pour an oil puddle on it and set that on fire.

[Rynjin]

In this ideal situation where you've walked up next to a swarm, poured out the oil, lit it on fire, moved away to a distant space, and started throwing more oil every round, what have you done to keep the swarm in the fire instead of following you?

[Kurald Galain]

In this ideal situation where you've walked up next to a swarm, poured out the oil, lit it on fire, moved away to a distant space, and started throwing more oil every round, what have you done to keep the swarm in the fire instead of following you?

You are faster than the swarm. Position yourself so that the fire is between you and the swarm. It will either stay behind the fire (in which case you are safe now) or move through the fire (which damages it, and you can dodge around the fire again).

If the swarm tries something more clever than that, please re-read the part where it has an intelligence of zero.

[Rynjin]

You are faster than the swarm. .

So everything stems from this false assumption, got it.

Edit: You know, I took a quick look at all the swarms relevant to this discussion just to make sure I'm not crazy, and what I found out is that not only is the pool of diminutive/fine swarms with lower than 30 feet of movement smaller than I thought, the pool of them with movement speeds HIGHER than 30 is actually even bigger than I thought.

It's not even true for the specific swarm I mentioned, the cockroach swarm (which can fly at 30).

The only truly dangerous swarm that's uber slow is the rotgrub swarm (which Paizo does love to use), but it makes up for that by getting in its free hit from the potential surprise round it gets and dealing up to 24 Con damage to the opponent, so it's got that going for it.

[Kurald Galain]

So everything stems from this false assumption, got it.

General consensus is that swarms do not hustle, double-move, or run - unlike PCs. So yes, everything stems from your false assumption that swarms aren't mindless, despite having an intelligence score of zero.

[Rynjin]

General consensus is that swarms do not hustle, double-move, or run - unlike PCs. So yes, everything stems from your false assumption that swarms aren't mindless, despite having an intelligence score of zero.

Why would anyone come to the consensus that swarms are permanently staggered or can't take a full suite of actions? Some monsters have that specific drawback. See: zombies. Swarms, notably... don't.

Yes, I suppose so if you impose outside limitations for zero logical reason, sure you could reach the conclusion you've somehow come to, but "bugs are too stupid to do the one thing they're known to do" (which is move very quickly and aggressively when pissed off, if you've somehow never interacted with like, a wasp before) is an extremely silly stance to take.

If you left it at "run or charge", sure. But not being able to double move? Huh? Literally on what basis?

I just have to wonder, do you also run other mindless creatures this way? Constructs, many undead, etc. only get a single action in your games? Why? Do you just have like an iron golem single move up to a player and then do nothing? Why? WHY? With every passing second my confusion grows.

I'm genuinely flabbergasted to hear someone would run a game like that.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm genuinely flabbergasted to hear someone would run a game like that.

It's all about this:


But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Basically, you're making assumptions that result in swarms being overpowered, and then complain about how overpowered swarms are. As far as I can tell, most players and GMs don't make the assumptions that you do, and as a result, swarms are not overpowered in their games. Funny how that works out.

[Rynjin]

It's all about this:



Basically, you're making assumptions that result in swarms being overpowered, and then complain about how overpowered swarms are. As far as I can tell, most players and GMs don't make the assumptions that you do, and as a result, swarms are not overpowered in their games. Funny how that works out.

But you're the one literally ignoring the text, what? Text says creatures get a standard and a move. They can use that standard to make a second move. Mindless creatures do not have a specific drawback that changes this. That is the text.

We can go even deeper and divine INTENT as well. Zombies are mindless. Zombies have a specific feature limiting them to a single action. Ergo, mindless creatures do not only get a single action by default. We also know that fast zombies, by comparison, can full attack. So they also obviously get more than one action barring a specific drawback.

You're gonna need to give me more than an irrelevant quote and a claim with zero evidence, logic, or rules basis behind it and some vague murmuring about a "consensus" that conveniently agrees with you, again with jack diddly in terms of data to corroborate it. I've literally never heard this **** in my life. As a wise government cyborg once said "Do you have a single fact to back that up?"

[Miss Disaster]

Is there a general tip or guideline to taking WotC's 3.5 monsters and porting them over to Pathfinder .... in regards to more-accurately changing/reassigning their CR?

This is harder to do with low-level monsters. Middle-level WotC monsters I generally give them a -1 to CR. And high-level WotC monsters I generally give them a -2 to CR in Pathfinder.

Any help on this would be most appreciated.

[Gnaeus]

Why would anyone come to the consensus that swarms are permanently staggered or can't take a full suite of actions? Some monsters have that specific drawback. See: zombies. Swarms, notably... don't..

I think Rynjin is very much in the right here, and would leave him to it. But since this argument seems based on “consensus” and “common sense assumptions”.

My group has always run that swarms can double move, as per the rules. (Going to consensus)

Having been chased by swarms, I can personally tell you a mosquito or wasp swarm will absolutely double move. (Common sense)

Having been camping, I would also assert that there are plenty of swarms who will not be deterred by a fire that you aren’t actually standing in the middle of, at least until you have time to fill the area with smoke, which isn’t going to happen as a result of throwing a flask of oil (RAW) or in a matter of seconds (Common sense). Even then, there’s a reason people burn sage, citronella, lavender or lemon balm to deter bugs, and that reason is they are way better at deterring bugs than a standard fire. Has no one else been at a 4th of July event that is smoky as heck from people setting off fireworks and at the same time kids are getting nommed by mosquitoes? Lucky devils.

[Kurald Galain]

Having been camping, I would also assert

Having been camping, would you assert that people get killed by insects on a regular basis? :smallamused:

[Gnaeus]

Having been camping, would you assert that people get killed by insects on a regular basis? :smallamused:

So common sense says that swarm encounters don’t exist but if they do they are deterred by things that don’t stop insects? Interesting position. Do I think a mosquito or cockroach swarm would kill someone? No. Or only in extreme circumstances. But given that it is a monster in a magic elf game I wouldn’t assume that magic super mosquitoes that can kill a normal man in 6 seconds are more afraid of fire or less able to chase a meal than are normal mosquitoes without supporting text. Common sense tells me the square-cube law makes a bunch of printed monsters impossible but I don’t argue that giants don’t exist in pathfinder.

Would you like to see an article about how attempting to kill (presumably non magic) fire ants with fireworks only pisses them off and sends a human to the hospital with dozens of bites?

[Psyren]

I really can't have this conversation with you if you refuse to read the rules even when I go out of my way to provide them FOR you.

I have read them, but I'm not convinced you have. You are treating the rules for one very specific usage of an oil flask as though they apply to all uses.

The "50% chance of igniting" rule is for when you're trying to put a fuse in your oil flask and turn it into an improvised alchemist's fire grenade that ignites by itself on impact. That rule is unrelated to simply setting oil on fire normally. Turning your oil flasks into actual grenades is the most practical use case if you're up against something with a brain, yes, but insect swarms are not that. Throw flask, throw torch, start fire from range.

Once you've started a fire, either the swarm will leave the area (you win) or it will stand in the fire and smoke and eventually die (you win). I genuinely don't know how to explain how fire works on bugs any more clearly than that.

Now, if your GM wants to play them like 18 Int tacticians instead of what they are then fine, but that will probably necessitate increasing the ECL of the fight, so they shouldn't be surprised at a TPK.

[Rynjin]

Bugs have like, self preservation instincts, at least minimal ones. It's kind of ALL they have. It'd be a lot easier to swat a fly or stomp.a cockroach if they didn't, yeah? That's why I'm so confused by this continued idea that bugs are too stupid to...move fast, I guess, and are known for standing still and staying chill when lit on fire instead of taking the easy action of leaving the fire to go chase food?

These are both such utterly bizarre hot takes from 2 posters I don't always agree with, but usually at least see where y'all are coming from.

[Gnaeus]

Once you've started a fire, either the swarm will leave the area (you win) or it will stand in the fire and smoke and eventually die (you win). I genuinely don't know how to explain how fire works on bugs any more clearly than that.

Or they move out of the actual fire and continue doing their swarmy stuff in the area, which is pretty much what actual bugs do.

If a player told me they made a survival check and a reasonable length of time to gather naturally occurring plants that create smoke bugs don’t like and then spent several minutes building up a nice smoky fire with them, I agree, common sense would say bugs go away. If they became fire resistant/immune and set themselves on fire or stood in a fire I’d agree no swarm would touch them. If they told me they threw a flask of oil on a fire and were now safe from swarms in the area I’d tell them to roll 4d6 and drop the low roll and repeat 5 more times.

[Psyren]

Bugs have like, self preservation instincts, at least minimal ones. It's kind of ALL they have. It'd be a lot easier to swat a fly or stomp.a cockroach if they didn't, yeah? That's why I'm so confused by this continued idea that bugs are too stupid to...move fast, I guess, and are known for standing still and staying chill when lit on fire instead of taking the easy action of leaving the fire to go chase food?

You were the one who made the argument (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635037-Switching-from-3-5-to-pathfinder-as-the-base-major-differences&p=25163965&viewfull=1#post25163965) that their statblock doesn't say they move out of fire, not me. You can't have it both ways - either they'll move out of fire, in which case you can drive them away and win, or it can't, in which case they'll stand there and get incinerated/suffocate and you still win. Pick one.


f a player told me they made a survival check and a reasonable length of time to gather naturally occurring plants that create smoke bugs don’t like and then spent several minutes building up a nice smoky fire with them, I agree, common sense would say bugs go away.

That's all I wanted - thanks. And if you have no other means of fighting them - say, the adventure path didn't hand you alchemist's fire like it does - being smart is the only option.

[vasilidor]

People have died to swarming insects in real life. mosquitos can drain enough blood from an animal to kill it and bees can sting enough to make a person die as well, same with wasps. in the case of spiders a single bite can cripple for life or kill a person. However, if the swarm is created by magic there should be a limitation as to how far the swarm can follow. in the case of the spider swarm it can be killed in an average of 9 rounds using the oil tactic, if only one person is throwing oil, and would require an average of 6 uses of oil. during that time it would deal an average of 21 + poison damage to the party - assuming that they stay in range to kill it with oil and the oil actually stuck to the spider swarm for the two rounds. Swarms are essentially punishment for trying to have a party without a caster who uses flaming hands all of the time.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Well they aren't dead from Session 1 but they are crawling through this place like its the tomb of annhilation or something. They have only made it to Room 8 the Armory so far. Very snail pace. They did get the scarab shield though. I'm really sure they'll be fine between that and the Alchemists Fire Vials with the upcoming swarm..

[Rynjin]

You were the one who made the argument (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635037-Switching-from-3-5-to-pathfinder-as-the-base-major-differences&p=25163965&viewfull=1#post25163965) that their statblock doesn't say they move out of fire, not me. You can't have it both ways - either they'll move out of fire, in which case you can drive them away and win, or it can't, in which case they'll stand there and get incinerated/suffocate and you still win. Pick one.

I missed this post, but I really don't understand the logic (that the only choices are to stand still or run in the specific direction most convenient to you because...reasons) so I can't really respond anyway.

[vasilidor]

I realize that my math from earlier is making the assumption that only one person is throwing oil. But does throwing more oil onto the fire make a difference? if no then the amount of time it takes to kill the swarm drops from 9 to 6 and the amount of damage done drops accordingly from 21 to...
actually, that should have been 30 damage in my initial, what did I do wrong?
I used a 6 instead of 9 on my calculator I think. so it drops from 30 to 21.
now if throwing more oil on does increase the damage, does it ignite the oil from previous tosses and does new oil automatically ignite if thrown on a fire? if so we can cut this down to two rounds to kill the spider swarm.

[Psyren]

I missed this post, but I really don't understand the logic (that the only choices are to stand still or run in the specific direction most convenient to you because...reasons) so I can't really respond anyway.

You "don't understand the logic" of wild animals and insects fleeing fire and smoke?

As for controlling direction... you put some of the fire between you and them, it's not hard. They're not smart, that's the point.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Anyone got any suggestions? 2 of my players are newer. Gotta try to speed things up a bit, they messaged me today about being "A little bored" Because the rogue was taking time with a 10ft pole and probing for traps after his Perception checks. I don't want to negate his role as skill guy.. because I personally was impressed with the ways he tested for traps. He set off the corridor trap in a safe way and just did it until it ran out of ammo. I'm not used to players being bored with a dungeon crawl. Feels weird. Our rogue is a veteran player of like 10 years and seemed happy. He did an amazing job of finding and disabling every trap so far.

[Endarire]

Saph (Saph2? Sapphire?) made a 3.5 to Pathfinder 1e Conversion Handbook many years ago. Whoever finds it can link it. Enjoy!

[Psyren]

Saph (Saph2? Sapphire?) made a 3.5 to Pathfinder 1e Conversion Handbook many years ago. Whoever finds it can link it. Enjoy!

It's in my extended sig

[Rynjin]

Anyone got any suggestions? 2 of my players are newer. Gotta try to speed things up a bit, they messaged me today about being "A little bored" Because the rogue was taking time with a 10ft pole and probing for traps after his Perception checks. I don't want to negate his role as skill guy.. because I personally was impressed with the ways he tested for traps. He set off the corridor trap in a safe way and just did it until it ran out of ammo. I'm not used to players being bored with a dungeon crawl. Feels weird. Our rogue is a veteran player of like 10 years and seemed happy. He did an amazing job of finding and disabling every trap so far.

Yeah, that's...kinda the issue with traps in general. They're only fun for the singular person in the game who can actually interact with them.

For everyone else, they're doing absolutely nothing while somebody says "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." "I move 10 ft. and roll Perception." for 4 hours. Every week.

This is compounded with the player using classic borderline metagaming tactics that make it take even longer before anything happens. "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." "I poke around until I find something." for 4 hours. Every week.

Actually, nix the borderline. It's just metagaming.

You know, Perception covers the sense of touch too? So if you're feeling around with a 10 ft. pole, that's part of your Perception check. Most people kinda gloss over that, or aren't aware of it in the first place. If you fail your Perception, you don't get a freebie to poke around with the pole. You were already poking around with the pole. You didn't hit the trigger.

If you want to be thorough and scour every single inch of the area, that's what Take 20 is for. It takes 20 times as long, so in-game you'd be spending 2 minutes searching every 10 ft. square, but it's not an issue if your party doesn't have buffs up. And if even your 20 doesn't hit the DC, you didn't find it.

Long story short, you can streamline this process by having the party agree collectively that they're Taking 20 to search the corridor and only stop them when/if they find something. This is obviously nixed if they're in a position where they can't take 20 (such as in combat), but traps mixed with combat are where they're the most interesting anyway.


You "don't understand the logic" of wild animals and insects fleeing fire and smoke?

As for controlling direction... you put some of the fire between you and them, it's not hard. They're not smart, that's the point.

This again brings up the question "what then"? It's still there. It's still undamaged. It's just somewhere different now. This could be good (if it ends up taking out a minor encounter, or being taken out by one), but usually it's going to be bad, because now you have a swarm you can't kill AND you don't know where it is.

[Tzardok]

This again brings up the question "what then"? It's still there. It's still undamaged. It's just somewhere different now. This could be good (if it ends up taking out a minor encounter, or being taken out by one), but usually it's going to be bad, because now you have a swarm you can't kill AND you don't know where it is.

I don't see where your problem is. Did it never happen in your games that an encounter was resolved by scaring the opponent off? Because that's what we just did. We scared the swarm away.
Also, who cares that we don't know where the swarm is? We didn't know where it was before the encounter either.

[Psyren]

This again brings up the question "what then"? It's still there. It's still undamaged. It's just somewhere different now.

You know you can win an encounter without killing the enemy right? Does your GM know that?

[Rynjin]

The difference is that swarms are basically a glorified "hazard" more than an enemy encounter. As you've said, swarms aren't very smart. Which tends to mean that if "scared off" they don't stay gone. You could stand around all day shooing off wasps with a torch, and at the end of the day...they'd come back. Sometimes even if you destroy their nest, the little ****ers will just rebuild it in the exact same place, unless you kill every last one of them. A lot of other bugs are the same way. I've seen someone take a literal flamethrower to an ant hill, and raze it to the ground and below.

It was back next week.

If you scare off a bandit, or even an animal, it will usually stay gone. Bugs are dumb and persistent.

[Psyren]

Which tends to mean that if "scared off" they don't stay gone. You could stand around all day shooing off wasps with a torch, and at the end of the day...they'd come back.

Why would you "stand around all day?" Once they've left you can successfully get past them and continue the adventure, therefore you win. Is the hive under the party's favorite tavern or something?

[Rynjin]

Why would you "stand around all day?" Once they've left you can successfully get past them and continue the adventure, therefore you win. Is the hive under the party's favorite tavern or something?

You're not...you know, I know what would help. Remember, we're talking about this a lot in the context of a few of Paizo's adventure paths specifically. Lemme pull up the maps of these encounters I've been thinking of during this discussion.

...Is what I was going to say, but every image hosting site on the planet that I used to use has apparently gone insane?

Long story short: a lot of these encounters take place in rooms where the swarm's only way to flee is further into your way. There's only one exit to the room (if that), or on notable occasions the swarm bubbles out of the ground right on top of you (Carrion Crown book 4 combines both of these, as does War for the Crown book 3), they're paired with another encounter of equal CR to make things difficult (Skull and Shackles book 1; CR 3 swarm and CR 3 monster) or in the case of the AP that the OP is running, as I've mentioned repeatedly already, summoned by magic directly on top of the party, meaning they take instant damage, no save, and have to hope they don't get Nauseated and maybe poisoned as well before they can even think about enacting anti-swarm tactics.

The way swarms are used in official content is mean.

[Gnaeus]

Long story short: a lot of these encounters take place in rooms where the swarm's only way to flee is further into your way. There's only one exit to the room (if that), or on notable occasions the swarm bubbles out of the ground right on top of you (Carrion Crown book 4 combines both of these, as does War for the Crown book 3), they're paired with another encounter of equal CR to make things difficult (Skull and Shackles book 1; CR 3 swarm and CR 3 monster) or in the case of the AP that the OP is running, as I've mentioned repeatedly already, summoned by magic directly on top of the party, meaning they take instant damage, no save, and have to hope they don't get Nauseated and maybe poisoned as well before they can even think about enacting anti-swarm tactics.

The way swarms are used in official content is mean.

Which is why I don’t think the smoky fire is as big a deal as its proponents. “Hang on while I get some sage and lavender and then build a campfire” just seems unworkable in a lot of these encounters. It’s not just PF either. I can think of at least one surprise swarm that popped up in a TSR product. Which was also an abandoned keep where building a big smoky fire would alert every nearby badguy (and don’t ask me how the NPCs dealt with the swarm. Dungeon ecology FTW.)

[Lorddenorstrus]

No offense but I'm not going to murder then with a basic swarm trap. It's summoned has a duration of 2 rounds.. with no reset. They have Alchemist Fire, a shield that can make the swarm run away.. **** they could just realize it's a Conjuration and run from the duration. They'll be fine <_<

I mean unless someone wants to sit in the swarm and voluntarily die I don't think anything is going to happen. I'm going to start prep on the next area.. probably in a week and overview that.. but they'll still have the shield to. They'll be ok from Swarms guys.

[Psyren]

The way swarms are used in official content is mean.

You mean the ones where they give you alchemist's fire specifically to deal with them? Are we talking about those specifically, or just in general?

[Rynjin]

You mean the ones where they give you alchemist's fire specifically to deal with them? Are we talking about those specifically, or just in general?

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't Sometimes it's missable, sometimes it's not enough to deal with the encounter.

Going back to Mummy's Mask, there are two weapon-immune swarms in the first two dungeons. The summoned cockroach swarm, and the scarab swarm in the second dungeon. There are precisely two flasks of Alchemist's Fire provided. This is a maximum total of...18 damage.

Now, the first swarm is both bypassable, and...runawayable, I guess you could say. You can find the trap and disable it, perhaps, and never interact. It only lasts for 2 rounds as well, though the party would have no way to know that (not even metagaming; it'd last a minimum 3 by RAW of the spell it's based on).

The second is a true swarm, and significantly more tenacious. It has 22 HP, compared to the 18 max points of free damage you get (average 10 or so). Its tactics, also, completely back up what I was saying. It will both follow you, and if scared off WILL come back.



As soon as the granary’s door is opened, the swarm spills out to attack any creatures
nearby. The swarm pursues foes throughout area B5, but doesn’t follow anyone who flees the property entirely.

...

If the swarm is not destroyed, it returns to the granary after an hour or so.

Now this one, again, you CAN run away from to go back and stock up, if you can afford it. However, it can't just be scared off, or completely bypassed, since it pursues people everywhere in the dungeon. It's also guarding some pretty sick loot. Like "one of the most valuable things in the entire book" (for some characters) sick.

As for the one in War for the Crown, it's pretty great. A little less...runawayable from, though our party managed to beat a fighting retreat and eventually kill it. Book 1, final dungeon.

Now, these are not weapon immune swarms, as they are rat swarms, but they exemplify some of the encounter design here.

There are two rat swarms, controlled by a central antagonist: a complete mother****er of an Awakened Dire Rat who fancies himself a king, and a Wizard.

Swarms alone are tough.

Swarms combined with an intelligent creature guiding their actions as he bombards the party with Acid Arrows and Magic Missiles from the comfort of a perch near the ceiling are...a whole other experience.

[Psyren]

1) The damage potential is much more than 18. Alchemist's fire isn't a spell, so it can make monsters catch on fire on top of its primary and secondary damage, and that will continue until they put it out. And beyond that, you also have regular oil too if even more fire is needed.

2) Obviously a swarm that is being actively controlled by someone intelligent is a higher CR encounter than is printed for it in the bestiary. A party of the right APL should have the resources to deal with that.

3) Even if all you do to one is chase it off for an hour, that's plenty of time to do whatever you're in that area to do and leave. What's the problem?

[vasilidor]

1) The damage potential is much more than 18. Alchemist's fire isn't a spell, so it can make monsters catch on fire on top of its primary and secondary damage, and that will continue until they put it out. And beyond that, you also have regular oil too if even more fire is needed.

2) Obviously a swarm that is being actively controlled by someone intelligent is a higher CR encounter than is printed for it in the bestiary. A party of the right APL should have the resources to deal with that.

3) Even if all you do to one is chase it off for an hour, that's plenty of time to do whatever you're in that area to do and leave. What's the problem?

Math was based on using oil, not alchemist fire.

[Rynjin]

1) The damage potential is much more than 18. Alchemist's fire isn't a spell, so it can make monsters catch on fire on top of its primary and secondary damage, and that will continue until they put it out. And beyond that, you also have regular oil too if even more fire is needed.

You right, I forgot the burn. Still, it makes killing it...unlikely.


2) Obviously a swarm that is being actively controlled by someone intelligent is a higher CR encounter than is printed for it in the bestiary. A party of the right APL should have the resources to deal with that.

You'd think, but the AP drops you into this dungeon as characters at level 1 with no particular combat experience who were just at a party, and need to equip themselves from scratch in this dungeon. Party is level 2 at the time of this encounter, or 3 if your GM is merciful and plays loose with the leveling guidelines, and undergeared. So your APL is at best 2, and maybe even effectively 1 because you're undergeared at 2nd level, facing a CR 5 encounter with an overtuned enemy type.

This is, again, an example of something that is not uncommon with how swarms are used in published material. For example, a botfly swarm carrying Ghoul Fever which is accompanied by a CR 3 enemy in book 1 of Skull and Shackles.


3) Even if all you do to one is chase it off for an hour, that's plenty of time to do whatever you're in that area to do and leave. What's the problem?

Mostly that it drops on top of your head when you look into the tiny, 5 x 5 x 15-20 ft. deep room it occupies.

[Gnaeus]

This is, again, an example of something that is not uncommon with how swarms are used in published material. For example, a botfly swarm carrying Ghoul Fever which is accompanied by a CR 3 enemy in book 1 of Skull and Shackles..

Yeah I remember we dominated the S&S swarms because we had someone with at will breath weapon. I’m not really sure how we were meant to win that fight without a vizier.

[Kurald Galain]

War of the Crown book 3 or Carrion Crown book 4 are level 7+ and 9+ respectively; by that level, your characters have had plenty of time to prepare for swarms and should have several counters to them.

Otherwise you might as well claim that flying enemies are unfair at level 10. They're not, because L10 PCs have numerous ways of flying themselves.

[Maat Mons]

I thought Alchemist's Fire only did 1 point of damage to swarms? I mean, they're immune to anything that targets a limited number of creatures. The 1d6 damage part of Alchemist's Fire can only affect one creature. Doesn't that mean the swarm is only subject to the area-of-effect part?

As for spending tedious amounts of time searching for traps, that's less of an issue with Pathfinder. In 3.5, you found traps with the Search skill. And the Search skill could only be used actively, not reactively. So you had to chose to use it on each area, and you didn't get a free roll just for walking near the trap. In Pathfinder, you use Perception to find traps, and you get a free Perception check just for wandering near anything, including traps. Ignore the Rogue Talent Trap Spotter that says it gives you the ability to notice traps without actively looking. The guy who wrote that hadn't fully wrapped his head around Pathfinder rules yet, and just assumed things worked like they did back in 3.5.

Now, the player still can actively search for traps if he wants. But that just means he gets an extra chance to notice each trap. But really, the most sure-fire way to detect traps remains the good old manacled prisoner forced to walk in front of you at spear-point. (A long-spear, obviously.) Bear in mind, the prisoner gets reactive Perception checks to notice traps too.

[Rynjin]

War of the Crown book 3 or Carrion Crown book 4 are level 7+ and 9+ respectively; by that level, your characters have had plenty of time to prepare for swarms and should have several counters to them.

Otherwise you might as well claim that flying enemies are unfair at level 10. They're not, because L10 PCs have numerous ways of flying themselves.

The one in CC book 4 isn't a huge deal. The one in War...is a cluster****. It involves in part protecting a civilian, and in part defending yourselves from hit and run tactics from multiple Outsiders at the same time.

The swarm, of course, can't be ignored, because rotgrub swarms are almost comically deadly.

@Maat Mons: While RAW correct that the flasks would do 1 damage, you'd be hard pressed to find a GM psychotic enough to actually go with that instead of the very clear, for once, RAI.

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah I remember we dominated the S&S swarms because we had someone with at will breath weapon. I’m not really sure how we were meant to win that fight without a vizier.


The way swarms are used in official content is mean.

Official content is usually predicated on the concept of skillmonkey trapfinder (quintessentially rogue), Beatstick Frontliner (traditionally Fighter), Healbot Divine Caster (Classic Cleric), Blaster Arcane Caster (Customarily Wizard).

If you consider it in this context, swarms are easy peasy for the blaster wizard by way of Burning Hands, or other similar AOE damage spell that they would be likely to take. If your super-amazing-perfect-in-every-way wizard is unable or unwilling to have an AOE blasting spell prepared, then you end up in the situation in which swarms are extra threatening instead of tasty BBQ.

I'm not sure if Pathfinder is different or not, but AOE attacks deal +50% damage to swarms in 3.5. Did Pathfinder do away with that?

[Psyren]

I'm not sure if Pathfinder is different or not, but AOE attacks deal +50% damage to swarms in 3.5. Did Pathfinder do away with that?

That weakness still exists in PF.


Math was based on using oil, not alchemist fire.

This is what makes this discussion so difficult, because we keep vacillating between specific situations (Paizo adventure paths with fixed encounter design/gear expectations) and general swarm difficulty. Alchemist's Fire and Oil are usually both available in the former, and for the latter, a GM who wants to TPK the party certainly can do that regardless of what monsters they use.


You right, I forgot the burn. Still, it makes killing it...unlikely.

At the risk of repeating myself, "killing" is not the only win condition when faced with animals and bugs.


You'd think, but the AP drops you into this dungeon as characters at level 1 with no particular combat experience who were just at a party, and need to equip themselves from scratch in this dungeon. Party is level 2 at the time of this encounter, or 3 if your GM is merciful and plays loose with the leveling guidelines, and undergeared. So your APL is at best 2, and maybe even effectively 1 because you're undergeared at 2nd level, facing a CR 5 encounter with an overtuned enemy type.

A CR 5 encounter is Epic difficulty for a APL 2 party whether swarms are involved or not. Any GM who bothers reading the core rulebook (CRB 397) should know that, and adjust accordingly - unless, again, they simply don't care about wiping the party that early.

[Gnaeus]

Official content is usually predicated on the concept of skillmonkey trapfinder (quintessentially rogue), Beatstick Frontliner (traditionally Fighter), Healbot Divine Caster (Classic Cleric), Blaster Arcane Caster (Customarily Wizard).

If you consider it in this context, swarms are easy peasy for the blaster wizard by way of Burning Hands, or other similar AOE damage spell that they would be likely to take. If your super-amazing-perfect-in-every-way wizard is unable or unwilling to have an AOE blasting spell prepared, then you end up in the situation in which swarms are extra threatening instead of tasty BBQ.

I'm not sure if Pathfinder is different or not, but AOE attacks deal +50% damage to swarms in 3.5. Did Pathfinder do away with that?

1. This is the first time I have ever heard burning hands spoken of on a forum in a non derogatory sense. It generally gets a poor rating in guides.

2. It isn’t a useful “situational” spell for wands or scrolls because the DC and CL are both important. A scroll/wand of burning hands is likely 1d4 empowered, with a save DC of 11.

3. So that mosquito swarm. 31 HP. A level three wizard with burning hands at +50% does 10-12 average damage on a failed save (reflex +3). He would need 3 burning hands prepped on all average+ rolls if the swarm fails all its saves. Have you ever seen a wizard 3 prep burning hands 3 times on the possibility that there could be a swarm?

4. It has 15 foot range. So he’s right next to the swarm. Which can certainly drop him in 2 rounds, maybe one with a good roll. If he drops, the 1d6 bleed will kill him quickly. Distraction and the disease are both Fort saves. Admittedly the disease won’t be a problem until later, but anyway.

So no. Swarms are not “easy peasy” for a blaster wizard. He is highly unlikely to have a full anti-swarm load out, which is the only way he will win, and using it puts your most vulnerable character right next to the death cloud.

(My vizier, by contrast, was doing 5d6 in a 30 foot line, so could be easily expected to two shot the swarm, even if it passed one of its saves.

But also, in S&S and it sounds like the other AP under discussion as well, the players lose their starting gear, so you are less likely to see a wizard than a gear independent sorcerer, who is even less likely to spend a spell known on burning hands and doesn’t even have 2nd level spells when these encounters appear).

[Rynjin]

Official content is usually predicated on the concept of skillmonkey trapfinder (quintessentially rogue), Beatstick Frontliner (traditionally Fighter), Healbot Divine Caster (Classic Cleric), Blaster Arcane Caster (Customarily Wizard).

If you consider it in this context, swarms are easy peasy for the blaster wizard by way of Burning Hands, or other similar AOE damage spell that they would be likely to take. If your super-amazing-perfect-in-every-way wizard is unable or unwilling to have an AOE blasting spell prepared, then you end up in the situation in which swarms are extra threatening instead of tasty BBQ.

Thankfully we know the exact parties used to test these APs. They use 4 of the Iconics, and the splash page art depicts the characters used.

Carrion Crown: Rogue, Witch, Paladin, Sorceress. Let's look at Seoni's statblock and....Mage Armor and Magic Missile are her first level spells, tough break.

Skull and Shackles: Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Magus...hey, maybe Seltyiel has Burning Hands! ...Nope, Shield and True Strike prepared, and Chill Touch, Enlarge Person, Grease, and Shocking Grasp in the book. Swing and a miss.

War for the Crown: Cavalier, Rogue, Investigator, and...I genuinely don't know that one. Psychic by the looks? ...Psychic, yes. What's Rivani got? Burst of Adrenaline, Comprehend Languages, and Mind Thrust I.

So, no, to your basic premise.

[Kurald Galain]

Official content is usually predicated on the concept of skillmonkey trapfinder (quintessentially rogue), Beatstick Frontliner (traditionally Fighter), Healbot Divine Caster (Classic Cleric), Blaster Arcane Caster (Customarily Wizard).
Yes. Furthermore, if we look at the ratings and reviews on the Paizo site, we see that S&S in particular has stellar ratings, WoC and CC are also solidly positive; and I haven't found any complaints that the PCs TPK'ed over some overpowered swarm. That suggests to me that Rynjin's assessment is... just not what commonly happens at game tables.

I stand by my earlier comment,

Basically, you're making assumptions that result in swarms being overpowered, and then complain about how overpowered swarms are. As far as I can tell, most players and GMs don't make the assumptions that you do, and as a result, swarms are not overpowered in their games. Funny how that works out.

[Rynjin]

Yes. Furthermore, if we look at the ratings and reviews on the Paizo site, we see that S&S in particular has stellar ratings, WoC and CC are also solidly positive; and I haven't found any complaints that the PCs TPK'ed over some overpowered swarm. That suggests to me that Rynjin's assessment is... just not what commonly happens at game tables.

I stand by my earlier comment,

You do know an encounter doesn't have to be a TPK to be difficult, right? If an encounter burns more resources than you can spare in a day, it's kind of a problem too. Regardless, if you weren't able to find accounts of character death by swarm in Skull and Shackles, you weren't looking hard enough.

Try the "official" Obituary Thread (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oamx?Skulls-and-Shackles-Obituary-Thread) that every AP has.

I mean you literally only had to read the first 10 posts to see a trend of people complaining about that particular encounter.


I like a challenge but we almost lost two more PCs last night. Both of them on the farm to the Ankheg and then we had to run away from two encounters with the Mosquito Swarm since we had no AOE to deal with them. I am not sure what they were thinking putting them in there because in reality there are very few characters who could deal with them at 2nd level. Even an elementalist-fire sorcerer with Burning Hands would have to roll well on the damage (assuming he made all his concentration rolls) to do 31 HPs in damage (even with the 50% increase in damage to swarms and assuming they failed their reflex saves). Luckily the DM let them lose interest after chasing us a short distance but if he didnt the only chance we would have had would have been stealth (vs their +9 perception) or running in four different directions knowing one of us would die (the Mosquito Swarm has a fly speed of 40).


The swarms are almost too mean. When my group came across them, they had nothing as well. I let them dive in the bog and made them hold their breath until the swarm moved on.

Both instances required GM mercy to avoid a TPK. A good post summing up the issue of "just run away":


The tendency of many of these encounters on the island to bleed together is destined to result in some PC deaths. Running away from Ghouls? Meet some Giant Frogs/Crabs? or hello Ankheg! My group ended up barricading themselves into the Stockade to get away from the Ship's Whores just to be ambushed by Vine Chokers. A nearly dead PC fleeing from the Chokers into the lodge got overwhelmed by Botflies and Ghast Stench. Lovely.
And then this beaten and bedraggled group is supposed to deal with an underwater dungeon and a tribe of Grindylows, before returning to the Man's Promise with what fuel in the tank for a confrontation with Plugg & Scourge? It's not looking good.

Likewise, other groups weren't so lucky:


The Alchemist and Rogue spotted disembodied heads in the fields, and we decided that going into the field for whatever loot it could hold was not in our best interests. So instead, we decided to burn the field to destroy whatever abominations it might hold. The GM decided that this did little more than piss off all of the botflies, which he said were about 8 swarms worth, although I have little understanding how one could tell how many things would make a swarmsworth. While the party fled, me and the GM discussed some logical things that weren't necessarily in the rule book, about how Tiny flying things would interact with the Breeze-Kissed Racial Feature. Overestimating my ability to destroy and survive, Aedric decides to stand his ground, giving the other PCs a chance to run, while he fended off the swarms. With a minimum of 9 damage on a splash I expected him to do well, which turned out not to be the case, causing him to be eaten and infested by botflies.


Bait", Sae, and Bernard decide to take cover in the lodge. They move to the door and see Ivy dangling from his suicide attempt. Bernard is suspicious, and casts a Ray of Frost at him to make sure he's dead. I rule that because Ivy knows he needs to stay still and pretend to be dead to lure people close, he can make a Will save to not flinch, with the result being the DC of the Perception check necessary to see him flinch. Only Sae notices. However, the Ray of Frost stirs up the botfly swarm on the body, which moves to the door, engulfs Bernard, and immediately drops him unconscious. Technically Bernard died two rounds later from the bleed, but we're using hero points, and he blew two of them to stay alive. By this point Han has moved up and cleverly uses a smoke stick to disperse the swarm, which I ruled worked well enough as I didn't want to TPK my party. Meanwhile, "Bait", terrified of what the chokers can do, and not hearing Sae's warning about the dangling corpse due to the excitement of the swarm, moves into the lodge and starts looking for anything useful. That's when Ivy pounced, grabbed "Bait", and used him to free himself.


Man, we've only lost two characters, one early on to the swarms in the first module and another to those auto-critting cyclops on the Island of Empty Eyes. Since then they've been pretty much cake-walking everything. They are now about to begin the final module and are brimming with confidence.

What are all of you guys doing wrong to warrant so many character deaths?

;P

(That last in response to one of my own posts, funnily enough, after the Captain of the ship touched a bad juju rock and got Trap the Soul'd.)


The group had returned to Bonewrack Isle to find their companion Tykari at his cousin's insistence. After a few months the group eventually gave in.
I had Tykari become a Dread Ghast leading a new group of Ghouls. Tykari being a Dread Ghast was smart so he lit smoky "cook" fires in Aron Ivy's old fort to draw people and creatures in. He did so when he saw the Sea Hawk anchor in the bay. The party saw the smoke and went onto the island to go find him.

At the top of the mountain the group panicked from not bringing their tools to deal with a botfly swarm and fled down the mountain trail at full speed. Because of accelerated climbing, the DC went up to 15. Captain Naseera only had a +1 to her climb checks due to zero ranks in climb and encumbrance. She rolled a 1 on her very first climb check. She had no chance to catch herself on that roll and she ended up looking like hamburger at the bottom of the mountain.

Her death was short lived. The group went back to Bloodcove seeking assistance from the Aspis Consortium seeing how they had just completed a task putting them in back in their good graces. They were able to get her raised and the required restoration spells cast, but put themselves into heavy debt to the Consortium.

You'll note, funnily enough, several, even most of these deaths do not occur due to damage from the swarm.

They occur due to your masterful, always works, solve everything "run away" strategy because as it turns out, Pathfinder is not a game that well rewards running away from combats with things that move faster than you. Or as fast as you. Or slower than you if you have to run in a direction you're not sure what lies ahead.

Oh, just for shiggles, since you wanted TPKs specifically one of the very few posts from the War for the Crown obituaries:


Name: Entire Party
Classes: Witch 2, Sorcerer 2, Bard 2, Fighter 2
Adventure: Crownfall
Location: Forgotten Archives
Catalyst: Swarms
The Gory Details: Having reached the circular halls of an old senatorial chamber where committees could debate and students could learn, the party heard the voice of the self-proclaimed Dagio the Great. Not finding him, they attempted to leave and were set upon by swarms of rats. Panicking, the casters were too distracted to successfully cast spells and were quickly devoured by the rats, leaving only the fighter standing with his sword. He swung again and again but was quickly downed by a combination of the swarms' numbers and Dagio's Acid Arrow.

This time, I blooped them back to just as they walked into the room, with the witch receiving another vision from her patron of the party being devoured by a swarm of angry circles. Warning her team, they made a dash for the exit only to find the door locked as Dagio the Great announced himself and sent the swarms charging in. Things looked bleak as the witch was immediately downed and the others were injured, but this time, the casters were no too panicked by the rats and through a combination of sleep and color spray were able to keep the swarms at bay before focusing on the swarms with their spells and the fighter's sword. With just Dagio remaining, they engaged in a duel of magic and bows until only the fighter remained standing and, through the use of potions, he was able to return his unconscious team to their feet.

Honorable mention goes to a post a few down, where the party NEARLY died to the swarm and then was nearly TPK'd by an NPC who's scripted to betray you at the most opportune possible moment (for them, of course).


Names: Anthea Basri, Kleo Merlott, Vermeil Cheval
Races: Half-elf, Human, Half-orc
Classes/levels: Cleric of Abadar (Lawspeaker)2, Unchained Rogue (Phantom Thief) 2, Cavalier (Courtly Knight) 2
Adventure: Forgotten Archives
Catalyst: Halfling Betrayal

The Gory Details:
After a brutal fight against Dagio and his swarms, Anthea (who had adopted first Kalbio and then Gulbend) was delighted that her so-called son was reunited with his friends! And when the halfling offered the party a drink of victory wine laced with arsenic, they all agreed, Kipi and Anthea failing their Fortitude saves.

Then the helpful halfling thrust his rapier into Anthea's kidney, a critical hit that dealt max damage across all dice, knocking the battleworn cleric deep into unconsciousness.

After that, the two halfling killers surrounded Vermeil, one of them also confirming a critical hit, killing him outright with a combined 42 damage.

From there, they moved onto Kleo, knocking her out before she had much chance to do anything.

Your premise of "the AP wouldn't be well reviewed if the encounters were difficult" doesn't really hold up to scrutiny in the first place, but hey, I can always find more if you need them.

[Kurald Galain]

You do know an encounter doesn't have to be a TPK to be difficult, right?Sure, but if swarm encounters are difficult but doable, then I fail to see the issue here.


Both instances required GM mercy to avoid a TPK.
Yeah, and that's the point. What you consider "GM mercy" (but implicitly: against RAW) is what other people consider good GM'ing and/or allowing ideas to work if they are logical/practical but not literally in the rules. Such adjudications are what GM's are for.


Your premise of "the AP wouldn't be well reviewed if the encounters were difficult" doesn't really hold up to scrutiny in the first place
Since that wasn't my premise anyway, I also fail to see the issue here.

[Rynjin]

Sure, but if swarm encounters are difficult but doable, then I fail to see the issue here.

The issue is people, including yourself, were saying they weren't difficult to deal with at all lol.

[Psyren]

Try the "official" Obituary Thread (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oamx?Skulls-and-Shackles-Obituary-Thread) that every AP has.


I see swarm deaths in that thread, and non-swarm deaths too. How does this prove one is overpowered?



Your premise of "the AP wouldn't be well reviewed if the encounters were difficult" doesn't really hold up to scrutiny in the first place,

And your premise of "cover art = playtest" does?


The issue is people, including yourself, were saying they weren't difficult to deal with at all lol.

In case I'm one of the "people" you're referring to, here's what I actually said:


Uh, where did I say they're "not dangerous?" What I said was that adventurers with half a brain cell can deal with them. Animals and bugs don't like fire, it doesn't take a doctorate to figure that out.

If your GM plays them like they're constructs or outsiders then of course they'll be under-CR'ed.



And once again I agree that swarms are dangerous. But that's no reason for an adventurer to lose their sense.

[Rynjin]

And your premise of "cover art = playtest" does?

...My premise is that this is the stated purpose of the Pathfinder Iconics. It is literally why they were made. As said by Paizo on multiple occasions. This is the easiest (and earliest) reference I can find.


One of the many lessons we've learned in our tour with Dragon and Dungeon is that people like iconic characters. A lot. It seems like every day a new thread pops up on our messageboards wanting to know more about the ill-fated Abelard the paladin, the tiefling fighter, or James Jacobs's notorious Tyralandi Scrimm. As such, when we sat down to develop the iconics for Pathfinder, we knew going into it that what we came up with needed to be more than just easy art reference. These iconics needed to live up their name and represent our world, our ethos, and our whole idea of what gaming is about. Fortunately, with Wayne Reynolds onboard to design the visual elements, we knew that what we received would blow our socks off—which it has.

Along with representing our game world, however, these iconics pull double-duty as pregenerated characters in Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules. Each adventure will be accompanied by four of our iconics, statted up to the appropriate level and ready for you to sit down and start playing with a minimum of effort.

So without further ado, I'd like to introduce the first of our iconics: Valeros, a male human fighter who will be making his first appearance at second level in D1: Crown of the Kobold King.. While a fan of two-handed fighting using his longsword and shortsword, his true favorite tool is the tankard attached to his belt. Despite the devil-may-care attitude implicit in his pose (and hair), he's actually got a strong moral streak that keeps him neutral good... a quality that he feels is directly responsible for the mass of nicks and scars covering his face and gear.

I find it a bit frustrating that people seem to just assume I'm a compulsive liar or something, and then I have to waste my own damn time finding quotes for stuff that really shouldn't need to be backed up so stringently during a casual conversation. I thought about searching up the posts from Mark Seifter about using Yoon to test APs as well (she's in Tyrant's Grasp and I think one other), but it doesn't really matter.

[Psyren]

I'm aware that the pregens in PFS are the iconics. Nothing in your long quote says they use only the specific iconics on each AP's cover art to playtest that module, which was your claim.

And once again, you respond to one tiny part of my post and ignore the rest, then claim you're frustrated. :smallsigh:

[Rynjin]

Because it's just a circular argument at this point. You claim swarms aren't overtuned because they have counters. My
position is that swarms are overtuned/under-CR'd BECAUSE they absolutely require specific counters to deal with that low level parties don't always have access to (much like wights, or low CR incorporeal creatures).

We clearly have a fundamental disagreement on this point.

[Psyren]

If a party doesn't have access to fire, they probably shouldn't be adventuring. Or using sharp objects.

Disagreement it is.

[vasilidor]

I think that swarms should all be CR'd +1 to what they normally are at minimum. because if you do not have the specific counter to them the only recourse is to run and hide, then hope they can't find or catch you.

[Rynjin]

So for anyone interested, James Jacobs actually deigned to clear things up (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43gfs?Trying-to-find-a-quote-re-Adventure-Path-Iconics) re: Iconics in APs for me. I had misremembered, and to an extent I was not prepared for, honestly.

The short version:

They don't actually playtest Adventure Paths AT ALL, generally speaking. This explains a lot with regards to certain encounters' designs, but honestly it adds to the charm a lot.

They DO playtest modules, and often use the iconics for those. This is probably what I was remembering from some interview years back.

Iconics chosen for AP art are chosen to make a thematically/mechanically appropriate party for the AP (eg. having a bunch of wilderness survival oriented characters for such campaigns)...usually. I look askance at this for a few really odd choices (like the Iconic Paladin being one of the party members for Skull and Shackles). Sometimes it's just because the writer really liked that character (Which potentially explains making the PALADIN a PIRATE).

So the iconics do represent, generally, what their idea of a balanced party for that Adventure Path looks like, but they don't actually run those characters through it.

[Lorddenorstrus]

my party set the swarm trap off with a summoned minion and just ran. This was after they used detect magic upon entering the room. Then perception and found it, figured out roughly what it was and did this rather safe plan. They actually stripped this dungeon clean of every piece of gold and it's... added up to a lot. They're gonna exceed lvl 2 wealth for sure.

So dumb question why did Pf switch X/Day use abilities. Like Rage 3 a day for X say 6 rounds. To just.. like 6 rounds total a day.. it seems like an unjustified neerf to classes.

[Rynjin]

Rounds/day ends up being a lot more powerful later. More flexibility of use.

Since each combat typically lasts 3-4 rounds, at 6 rounds/day your Barbarian already has "two uses" of Rage. By mid-levels you have enough rounds you can Rage in every combat and it's fine.

Getting it 1/day for a minute kinda sucks in the grand scheme.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Rounds/day ends up being a lot more powerful later. More flexibility of use.

Since each combat typically lasts 3-4 rounds, at 6 rounds/day your Barbarian already has "two uses" of Rage. By mid-levels you have enough rounds you can Rage in every combat and it's fine.

Getting it 1/day for a minute kinda sucks in the grand scheme.

I suppose considering 3.5s was 1/day. I never really considered it because I always got myself extra uses when making it and it was only ever the 1 lvl pounce dip + whirling. To be fair she absolutely crushed most of the dungeon. 18 from roll, Orc +4 for 22 Str. She absolutely clobbered anything with a hardness. The fake sarc was the only hard fight and that was mostly from people panicking over drowning and not concentrating properly.

[Psyren]

Moving Rage and Bardic Performance to rounds also lets them become another resource for more powerful or granular effects. Abilities like Masterpieces for example would be much more difficult to design and balance if bardic performance were still measured in daily uses instead of rounds.