Build advice: Wrassslin Loxodon

[Derges]

Starting a new character in a friend's game, was hoping for some advice or extra inspiration if anyone has any to offer.

The concept:
A fighter/bard multiclass that controls the battlefield by grappling and occasionally casting spells. It's also an excuse to do over the top wrestling moves with a 600lb beefcake.

The fluff:
A loxodon caused a deadly accident which killed his training partner. In an attempt to avoid the consequences he now travels the world using both of their personas to build up a reputation for his old friends stage name.

The crunch:
2 Fighter, 2 Bard. Faceless loxodon. Free shield master feat and the grappler fighting style.

The questions:
1) which class should I level next, expertise and 2nd level spells from bard seem like the biggest improvement?

2) I'm torn between the utility of taking BM fighter and the tag - team style shenanigans that echo knight could offer. Does anyone have any thoughts on fighter subclass?

3) do all bards get enlarge/reduce on their spell list now or do I need to take lore to get it. If not I'm thinking glamour for the monologues?

[Unoriginal]

Starting a new character in a friend's game, was hoping for some advice or extra inspiration if anyone has any to offer.

The concept:
A fighter/bard multiclass that controls the battlefield by grappling and occasionally casting spells. It's also an excuse to do over the top wrestling moves with a 600lb beefcake.

The fluff:
A loxodon caused a deadly accident which killed his training partner. In an attempt to avoid the consequences he now travels the world using both of their personas to build up a reputation for his old friends stage name.

The crunch:
2 Fighter, 2 Bard. Faceless loxodon. Free shield master feat and the grappler fighting style.

The questions:
1) which class should I level next, expertise and 2nd level spells from bard seem like the biggest improvement?

2) I'm torn between the utility of taking BM fighter and the tag - team style shenanigans that echo knight could offer. Does anyone have any thoughts on fighter subclass?

3) do all bards get enlarge/reduce on their spell list now or do I need to take lore to get it. If not I'm thinking glamour for the monologues?

If you want a Fighter subclass in a grappling build, it's hard to do better than Rune Knight.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...

The crunch:
2 Fighter, 2 Bard. Faceless loxodon. Free shield master feat and the grappler fighting style.

The questions:
1) which class should I level next, expertise and 2nd level spells from bard seem like the biggest improvement?

2) I'm torn between the utility of taking BM fighter and the tag - team style shenanigans that echo knight could offer. Does anyone have any thoughts on fighter subclass?

3) do all bards get enlarge/reduce on their spell list now or do I need to take lore to get it. If not I'm thinking glamour for the monologues?
First off, where's the Shield Master feat coming from? You need 4 levels in a class before you get an ASI, not 4 levels total.


If you take a level of Rune Knight first, you get the ability to expand, getting advantage on all strength checks for 1 minute prof mod/LR, as well as a specific feature of your choice. A third level of bard nabs you the aforementioned expertise and 2nd level spells. Both come out about even, imo, though I'd lean Fighter. You don't have to worry about Concentration for their version of "enlarge".
I'm with Unoriginal. Rune Knight for the subclass, though if your DM doesn't allow it, then Battle Master is your best bet.
If your DM is using the optional spell list expansion from TCoE, then all bards get enlarge/reduce as part of their spell list.

[Derges]

0) Players are starting with a free feat from the DM.

1/2) I'll look into Rune Knight then.

3) thought so, thanks.

Edit.
Rune Knight does look good and my kind DM is willing to ignore the "using a weapon" bit of the fire Rune so I can do it unarmed. Thanks for the advice

[RogueJK]

Either way, next level really ought to be Bard 3 for Athletics Expertise, 2nd level spells, and Swords Bard Blade (Fist) Flourishes.

But from there, there are two ways I can see building this, as far as leveling. (Trying to do 50/50 multiclassing just ends up with you being noticeably behind in power/abilities.)

A) Fighter 2 -> Swords Bard 6 -> Battlemaster/Rune Knight/Echo Knight Fighter 3 -> Bard X.

B) Fighter 2 -> Swords Bard 3 -> Battlemaster/Rune Knight/Echo Knight Fighter X.

Either way, you're eventually getting Extra Attack online at Character Level 8. You'll just need to decide whether you want to be more of a Bard with short rest regenerating Bardic Inspiration for frequent Blade Flourishes plus higher level spellcasting, or more of a Fighter with earlier/greater access to Fighter subclass abilities at the cost of limited spellcasting and only a handful of Blade Flourishes per day.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Either way, next level really ought to be Bard 3 for Athletics Expertise, 2nd level spells, and Swords Bard Blade (Fist) Flourishes.

But from there, there are two ways I can see building this, as far as leveling.

A) Fighter 2 -> Swords Bard 6 -> Battlemaster/Rune Knight/Echo Knight Fighter 3 -> Bard X.

B) Fighter 2 -> Swords Bard 3 -> Battlemaster/Rune Knight/Echo Knight Fighter X.

Either way, you're eventually getting Extra Attack online at Character Level 8. You'll just need to decide whether you want to be more of a Bard at the cost of putting off Fighter subclass abilities until a later date in exchange for short rest regenerating Bardic Inspiration and more spells, and or more of a Fighter with earlier/greater access to Fighter subclass abilities at the cost of limited spellcasting and only a handful of Blade Flourishes per day.

If you're going to go Swords' Bard, you'll need your DM to also overlook the fact that all of the blade flourishes also require a weapon. Any maybe let you pick a different fighting Style, as RAW neither Dueling nor TWF work with fists.

[RogueJK]

If you're going to go Swords' Bard, you'll need your DM to also overlook the fact that all of the blade flourishes also require a weapon. Any maybe let you pick a different fighting Style, as RAW neither Dueling nor TWF work with fists.

No, they require a weapon attack. You don't have to be specifically wielding a weapon. Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks (as opposed to the alternative of spell attacks): https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951895470967672832?lang=en

Also see https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf:


What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon?

It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. Some attacks count as a melee or ranged weapon attack even if a weapon isn’t involved, as specified in the text of those attacks. For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.

But you're correct that without DM intervention, the fighting style is wasted.

[Kuulvheysoon]

No, they require a weapon attack. You don't have to be specifically wielding a weapon. Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks (as opposed to the alternative of spell attacks): https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951895470967672832?lang=en

You're correct that without DM intervention, the fighting style is wasted, though.

No, they specifically need a weapon. See below:


Defensive Flourish. You can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target you hit. The damage equals the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration die. You also add the number rolled to your AC until the start of your next turn.

Mobile Flourish. You can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target you hit. The damage equals the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration die. You can also push the target up to 5 feet away from you, plus a number of feet equal to the number you roll on that die. You can then immediately use your reaction to move up to your walking speed to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the target.

Slashing Flourish. You can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target you hit and to any other creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of you. The damage equals the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration die.They don't need weapon attacks, they call out attacks with a weapon. Otherwise yes, you would absolutely be correct.

[RogueJK]

I see your point. However, the wording in the intro to Blade Flourish specifies: "if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice."

Seems like there's some gray area there with unarmed strikes, which are in the unique situation of being weapon attacks (and therefore allow you to apply the Blade Flourish options in general), but not weapons (so you therefore cannot apply any of the specific Blade Flourishes).

Talk to your DM.

[Derges]

The DM is only expecting to go to around level 9 so a 6 fighter 3 bard will probably be the split.

Sword bard while strong doesn't fit the WWE theme as strongly as glamour. I've got a melee heavy party so the glamour movement will be quite useful as well. I'd rather not pressure the DM into too many oversights right off the bat.

[Greywander]

Rune Knight also has a couple of interesting properties for grappling.

First, Giant's Might doesn't increase your size by one step. It just sets your size to Large. Loxodons are medium creatures, so there isn't a distinction, but this does mean that halflings or gnomes can be effective grapplers.

Second, high level Rune Knights can eventually grow to Huge, allowing them to grapple any creature, regardless of size. However, you can actually achieve this as early as 6th level with a Rune Knight 3/caster 3 split. Enlarge/Reduce will stack with Giant's Might, so Giant's Might will make you Large, and then you can Enlarge yourself to Huge. It should also work if you Enlarge first, as Enlarge gives you a modifier to your base size, while Giant's Might actually overwrites your base size (so instead of being a Medium creature Enlarged to Large, you are now a Large creature Enlarged to Huge).

If you wanted to do a pure Rune Knight grappler, you could grab the Skill Expert feat from Tasha's to get Athletics expertise. Four attacks (at 20) means you can grapple and shove prone two creatures in one round. Multiclassing means giving up that capability, though two or three attacks should be enough to be effective. Loxodons are interesting in that they can grapple with their trunk, so you could grapple up to three creatures if you wanted to. So a Loxodon would get more out of additional attacks than most other races. Alternatively, if you only want to grapple one enemy at a time, you can actually go sword-n-board and use a weapon and shield together while grappling with the trunk.

Make sure you have other things you can do besides grappling. Grappling is fun, but it's not always viable, e.g. against flying or incorporeal enemies. One of the nice things about grappling is that it requires little investment to be great at it, freeing you up to pick up a lot of non-grappling stuff. Carry a longbow and a good melee weapon, pick up a few good spells from bard. A multiclass build is a bit awkward here; do you fighter or do you bard? A straight fighter can pull out a weapon and do all the normal fighter stuff, a straight bard has plenty of spells to fall back on, but a mix can't do either as effectively. Give this some thought, as you won't be able to grapple in every fight.

[Derges]

Rune Knight also has a couple of interesting properties for grappling.

First, Giant's Might doesn't increase your size by one step. It just sets your size to Large. Loxodons are medium creatures, so there isn't a distinction, but this does mean that halflings or gnomes can be effective grapplers.

Second, high level Rune Knights can eventually grow to Huge, allowing them to grapple any creature, regardless of size. However, you can actually achieve this as early as 6th level with a Rune Knight 3/caster 3 split. Enlarge/Reduce will stack with Giant's Might, so Giant's Might will make you Large, and then you can Enlarge yourself to Huge. It should also work if you Enlarge first, as Enlarge gives you a modifier to your base size, while Giant's Might actually overwrites your base size (so instead of being a Medium creature Enlarged to Large, you are now a Large creature Enlarged to Huge).

If you wanted to do a pure Rune Knight grappler, you could grab the Skill Expert feat from Tasha's to get Athletics expertise. Four attacks (at 20) means you can grapple and shove prone two creatures in one round. Multiclassing means giving up that capability, though two or three attacks should be enough to be effective. Loxodons are interesting in that they can grapple with their trunk, so you could grapple up to three creatures if you wanted to. So a Loxodon would get more out of additional attacks than most other races. Alternatively, if you only want to grapple one enemy at a time, you can actually go sword-n-board and use a weapon and shield together while grappling with the trunk.

Make sure you have other things you can do besides grappling. Grappling is fun, but it's not always viable, e.g. against flying or incorporeal enemies. One of the nice things about grappling is that it requires little investment to be great at it, freeing you up to pick up a lot of non-grappling stuff. Carry a longbow and a good melee weapon, pick up a few good spells from bard. A multiclass build is a bit awkward here; do you fighter or do you bard? A straight fighter can pull out a weapon and do all the normal fighter stuff, a straight bard has plenty of spells to fall back on, but a mix can't do either as effectively. Give this some thought, as you won't be able to grapple in every fight.

Getting to huge isn't something I'd considered. Pretty awesome though. with 3/3 I'd be able to get large 4 times a day which *should* mean more or less every combat and the option to get massive twice a day instead could be nice on lighter days.

The DM doesn't think we'll get to 10 so building for 20 doesn't seem worthwhile. The combat style is going to be unarmed with an optional shield for 2+ grappled targets.

For alternatives I'm going to struggle a little, low dex means bows aren't going to be viable.
I've picked up some nets and spears and since I can grow to huge fliers shouldn't be too bad (jumping + huge is 35ft for melee/net 55ft for spears).
For incorporeal creatures I guess I just pull out my horn megaphone and start trash talking via Vicious Mockery which will at least scale a little.