Graviturgy Adjust density and Jump/Longstrider spells

[tontoncho]

Just wanted to know if Adjust Density and jump/longstrider benefits stack and if so, would i be making a 16(strenght score) ft x 2 x 3 = 96ft jump?

[noob]

Just wanted to know if Adjust Gravity and jump/longstrider benefits stack and if so, would i be making a 30ft x 2 x 3 = 180ft jump?

Does 5e have 1: rules disallowing stacking of multipliers or 2: rules saying that multiple multipliers adds instead of multiplying?
If neither are true then you are probably right.

[Warder]

Even if it does stack, you're limited by your movement. You can never jump further than you have actual movement on your turn (which is a terrible rule imho, but that's the way things are).

[noob]

Even if it does stack, you're limited by your movement. You can never jump further than you have actual movement on your turn (which is a terrible rule imho, but that's the way things are).

I think it is less terrible than the rule saying a jump can take multiple turns if it exceeds movement speed(goodbye 3 meters high jumps lasting 12 seconds)

[Hytheter]

Yeah, I don't love the rule either but what's the alternative? Jumps paused partway at the end of turn? Everyone jumping all over the place for extra movement? I can't think of anything I don't like less than what we have now.

[Sorinth]

Yeah, I don't love the rule either but what's the alternative? Jumps paused partway at the end of turn? Everyone jumping all over the place for extra movement? I can't think of anything I don't like less than what we have now.

The simplest is that if you exceed your movement you end up prone wherever you land and/or possibly take "fall" damage for every 10ft of movement that you exceed your movement by. That way you can still make those incredible leaps but it's not something you'll be doing every round.

[Reach Weapon]

The simplest...
Is that simpler than leaving them marshalling their effort and then resolving the whole jump (if uninterrupted) on their next turn?

[Sorinth]

Is that simpler than leaving them marshalling their effort and then resolving the whole jump (if uninterrupted) on their next turn?

I meant the simplest alternative.


Since there are problems with limiting it to your movement and to ending your turn mid-air this option allows the fiction of making those desperate running leaps without the game turning into a bunch of people jumping around the battlefield.

[Warder]

Ending your turn midair is what I prefer. We already have flying rules, it's a very simple tweak to make them applicable to mid air jump. The only departure from standard 5e rules is that you have to keep track of where you were set to land between turns, but meh. It's certainly less obnoxious than trying to wrangle running starts and the idea that you come to a full stop at the end of each of your turns.

[Sorinth]

Ending your turn midair is what I prefer. We already have flying rules, it's a very simple tweak to make them applicable to mid air jump. The only departure from standard 5e rules is that you have to keep track of where you were set to land between turns, but meh. It's certainly less obnoxious than trying to wrangle running starts and the idea that you come to a full stop at the end of each of your turns.

One problem with that is that it could lead to situations where you spend your movement and then make a high jump and get out of melee range, you'll probably need spells/magic or be a Bullywug but it would be a very strong defensive option.

[Chronos]

What's wrong with a mighty jump taking multiple rounds? It's not like time freezes every six seconds. Everything in a battle is supposed to be constantly moving.

[noob]

What's wrong with a mighty jump taking multiple rounds? It's not like time freezes every six seconds. Everything in a battle is supposed to be constantly moving.

It would mean that the slower the walking speed of someone is the slower gravity is for them.
Someone able to make a 10 foot tall and 30 foot long jump would depending on their move speed either fall in the same turn as the turn they jump(<6 second time for rising and falling 10 feet) if they can move 30 feet per turn or take 18 seconds to rise and fall 10 feet if their movement speed is 5 feet.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I don't love the rule either but what's the alternative? Jumps paused partway at the end of turn? Everyone jumping all over the place for extra movement? I can't think of anything I don't like less than what we have now.

Simplest is to say jump distance = min(movement, calculated jump distance).

I.e. no jump takes more than one turn, no matter how strong you are.

[Hytheter]

Simplest is to say jump distance = min(movement, calculated jump distance).

I.e. no jump takes more than one turn, no matter how strong you are.

Either that's the actual rule or I'm not understanding what you mean.

[Aimeryan]

If we were modelling real life, your jump distance would be resultant of your movement speed and proficiency (Athletics) - and, of course, gravity (however, this should remain fairly constant). Jump speed would be capped at movement speed, however, it is likely to be considerably lower due to loss of energy converted into vertical height - and, of course, would lose speed over time due to friction with the air. Strength would not directly come into it, although movement speed would itself be resultant of strength, weight, size (friction), shape (friction), and proficiency (and realistically, how wounded you were, how much stamina you had left, etc.).

Clearly, this is too much to model for simple 5e. Movement speed is just given as the same for all creatures of a type (although, there is a variant for emcumbrance - then again, this only comes into play in very simple ways itself). I do find it odd, however, that long jump distance is based on strength score - it would have made way more sense to stick with movement speed, even if you ignored everything else.

In game, movement does not differentiate between acceleration and velocity, so whether you technically stop or not between spending movement is largely moot. However, if you jump it very much matters whether you are still in the process of jumping between rounds. Jumping between two rounds should be fine; the duration of a round is six seconds, however, the time between rounds is nothing, so the hang time of the jump is anywhere between 0 seconds and 12 seconds - a perfectly reasonable number is within that range (like, one second). Jumping over multiple rounds, however, is problematic; unfortunately, because the jump distance is based on just strength, yet the amount that can be moved in a round is capped by movement speed, it is possible to have a potential jump distance much further than you can move in a round, which leads to a mandatory absurdly long hang time if the jump completes over multiple rounds.

That said, this may not be possible to actually do under just mundane rules?:

Low movement speed required for multiple rounds - heavy armour can lower this by 10ft, other sources tend to be temporary and lost when moved out of. Variant Encumbrance can do it, though; lowering speed by up to 20ft. Dwarves start at 25ft, but ignore heavy armour.
High jump distanced - requires a Strength score of 20 and to have moved 10ft before the jump; actually quite easy and pretty common.


So, we want at least movement speed at 10ft to begin with, then 5ft for the rest, with jump distance at 20ft - quite doable if using the encumbrance variant, impossible(?) otherwise. Dwarf starts encumbered (-10ft speed), lowering speed to 15ft (25-10).

Rounds:


Runs 15ft, free item interaction to grab something very heavy (100lb, or 45kg) to become heavily encumbered lowering speed to 5ft (25-20), jumps 20ft (none of which is used due to having 0 movement speed left).
Moves 5ft.
Moves 5ft.
Moves 5ft.
Moves 5ft, jump completed.

So, hang time of at least three full rounds, plus whatever you want to count for the last round. So, at least 18 seconds - all while heavily encumbered! For a mundane jump that is pretty impressive!

Even a human that started heavily encumbered can result in a full round plus of hang time. Given that the greatest recorded hang time of around 1.4 seconds

So what would be a better solution? Here are some solutions to look at:


Fall down at end of movement speed.
Complete the jump within the turn (and thus round) regardless, possibly subtracting the excess movement speed from future rounds.
Use movement speed to determine jump distance instead of strength.


Problem with the first is that you arbitarily change what happens based on the division into rounds. A sequence of running up to a 15ft wide chasm and immediately jumping over may be possible or may not be possible, just depending on how far away you originally started. This is a whole other problem and one in which can and far more likely will result in changes in combat. It also seems just as silly, to be honest.

The second has the problem of giving you extra movement arbitarily, even if you do pay it off later. This has the same problems as the first point. Also silly.

The third point is the only one that defacto fixes the issue, as I see it. Spells like Jump can break it, but then, they are spells, it is kind of what they do.

[Reach Weapon]

So what would be a better solution? Here are some solutions to look at:
Seeing as it was mentioned in this very thread, you probably should have given consideration the option where the jump process is initiated, but no part of the jump is resolved until enough movement to cover it has been accumulated, even when that causes the resolution to fall on a subsequent turn.

[sambojin]

No, I don't know how this stacks with Adjust Density, but the oddest example is the still-a-beast version of Female Steeder and the Jump spell.
Any level 8 druid can become one, and a Moon can do it at level 2.
It already lets you break your movement limit with the steeder's Leap non-action (just expends all your movement) for a 90' Leap/jump, Jump triples all jump distances, so 270' jumping either horizontally or vertically?

(Pretty sure they got retconned into monstrosities or aberrations though)

[Aimeryan]

Seeing as it was mentioned in this very thread, you probably should have given consideration the option where the jump process is initiated, but no part of the jump is resolved until enough movement to cover it has been accumulated, even when that causes the resolution to fall on a subsequent turn.

Interesting; must have missed that. I still don't see this as a better option for simulating a mundane jump*; it once again uses an abstract round-division to decide on whether a jump can be made, rather than the speed and skill of the jumper (vs. gravity). Movement points left in a round should have no effect on the ability to make a jump, only how far through the jump is completed within that round. The jump should then finish the next round if required - which it would do if tied to movement speed instead of strength.

Does this mean an enemy may not be able to hit them between rounds? Not that I can see; the enemy can also jump and just hit in mid-air, or if considerably faster, jump and Ready** an attack for when the other party lands.


*There is, of course, no obligation for D&D to simulate anything mundane. However, as mentioned by previous posters, rules that seem like they are trying to simluate the mundane yet do so poorly are often thought of as terrible rules - I liken this to the uncanny valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley) effect. If jumps were instead based on your charisma or something then it would be pretty obvious no attempt at simulating the mundane occurred here.

**Ready action being limited to no Extra Attack(s) is problematic, of course.