Swords bard/Hexblade: why is TWF supposed to be words than dueling?

[Hiro Quester]

As far as I can tell, a swords bard 6 Hexblade 14 (or Bard 8 Hex 12, if you are okay with only a single curse target per short rest) looks like a TWF melee monster.

Playing as a half elf for elven accuracy. When I have advantage, I pick the best of 3 d20s, and against my Hexblade curse target I crit on 19 or 20. So I will crit reasonably often. And when I do I can smite and/or use a blade flourish for extra damage.

With the right invocations the hexblade gets Charisma+proficiency to attack, charisma to damage, Proficiency to damage (from Hexblade's curse), and charisma again to damage (necrotic, from life drinker). Plus a Hex spell adds another d6 damage. And you can Eldrich smite for 6d8 damage + prone when you hit (once per round).

Weapon can be spellcasting focus for Hexblade spells. And for protection you have shield, armor of agathys, and armor of hexes (50% miss chance). Plus a mirror image if you can anticipate the combat.

Swords bard gets blade flourishes using inspiration dice, that can also be applied (no action) whenever you crit (and add to AC, slash his buddy, or knock him around). And extra attack (which saves an invocation). And proficiency with scimitars.

Weapon can be spellcasting focus for Bard spells. Bard spells can be used for low-level staples like shield, mirror image,

Plus a fighting style: TWF or Duelling. That's what I want to ask about.

TWF with scimitars, then seems a good idea. With all this, the main scimitar can be my pact weapon, and my offhand weapon can also have Charisma to attack and damage (from the ritual you perform after a long rest). Scimitars apply your proficiency bonus to any attack (including offhand ones). So the only deficit that the offhand weapon has, is that the +CHA in necrotic damage from life drinker does not apply, and the +1 from improved Pact Weapon.

So the main weapon has two attacks at +12 to hit and does 2d6+18 to my cursed target, and the offhand weapon (bonus action) is +11 to hit and does 2d6+13

I don't always have a free bonus action. It's needed to cast Hex, or to curse my enemy. And there are a few other spells that could use a bonus action.

So why do the guides often state, as a matter of fact, that dueling is the better style for a Swords Bard/Hexblade? Dueling's +2 to all attacks is only +4 over the round, if all attacks hit.

But a bonus action attack with the second weapon is 2d6+13, and offers yet another opportunity to crit and smite and/or use a blade flourish. Surely that is more value?

It certainly seems better value that using Maddening Hex for a bonus action psychic damage attack on your cursed target of your proficiency bonus (with the chance of affecting the target's buddy). and that is often recommended as a good invocation for adding a bonus action attack.

What am I missing or misunderstanding here?

[Hytheter]

Any turn you use Hexblade's curse, you gain nothing from TWF. Any turn you cast Hex, you gain nothing from TWF. Any turn you move Hex because you killed the other target, you get nothing from TWF. There's just a lot clogging up your BA economy for a TWF build.

Plus, with Duelling you can use a shield which is a good passive defense bump that also stacks nicely with Shield spell (assuming you have war caster, which is necessary for TWF as well) and Defensive Flourish.

Duelling also lets you use a d8 weapon, so it's really 3 extra damage per attack.


But a bonus action attack with the second weapon is 2d6+13, and offers yet another opportunity to crit and smite and/or use a blade flourish. Surely that is more value?

You can neither flourish nor smite on the TWF attack. Smite requires your pact weapon and flourish requires your attack action (and can only be used once per turn).

[CheddarChampion]

Seems like the build doesn't come online until level 9 which isn't great... but you wanted to focus on dueling vs twf.

Assuming at level 9 you have a split of Bard 6/Warlock 3, you get your second feat/asi at character level 10 (Bard 6/Warlock 4). This gets you to 20 charisma.

At this point you have 3 attacks which deal 1d6+4 (7.5) damage. 22.5 if all hit.
You're locked in to Pact of the Blade so you can use Charisma with more than one weapon.
Whenever you're in a situation where combat starts and you don't have your weapons drawn, you can only draw both weapons on your first turn if you use your action. This is resolved at level 14 if you take Dual Wielder.

With dueling instead, you have 2 attacks which deal 1d8+6 (10.5) damage. 21 if both hit. So the damage is comparable.
You can take any pact you want and gain its benefits. Do you want cantrips? Pact of the Tome. Do you want an invisible familiar that can use items and feed you potions if you fall in combat? Pact of the Chain.
If your group is like mine, you can hold a shield just fine while traveling/venturing and when meeting people (it isn't taken as a sign of aggression like holding a sword is). This means that most of the time when combat starts your shield is already equipped.

Finally, the duelist only needs one magic weapon to gain a boost to all their attacks. A twf'er needs two.

Have you considered spear+shield+dueling+PAM for the bonus action attack? How about dual scimitar and Revenant Blade?

[quindraco]

As far as I can tell, a swords bard 6 Hexblade 14 (or Bard 8 Hex 12, if you are okay with only a single curse target per short rest) looks like a TWF melee monster.

Playing as a half elf for elven accuracy. When I have advantage, I pick the best of 3 d20s, and against my Hexblade curse target I crit on 19 or 20. So I will crit reasonably often. And when I do I can smite and/or use a blade flourish for extra damage.

Since you're using Eldritch Smite, not Divine Smite, note that you can't smite using your Spellcasting spell slots, only your Pact Magic spell slots. You also can't convert between the two, as you have no sorcerer levels. So that's 3 smites per short rest, each of which hits for 6d8 force, knocks Huge or smaller targets prone, and consumes one of your 3 Pact Magic slots, so if you cast any spells with those slots, they're not on tap for smiting.

The round you put the curse up, you can't TWF at all.


With the right invocations the hexblade gets Charisma+proficiency to attack, charisma to damage, Proficiency to damage (from Hexblade's curse), and charisma again to damage (necrotic, from life drinker). Plus a Hex spell adds another d6 damage. And you can Eldrich smite for 6d8 damage + prone when you hit (once per round).

Hex is a bonus action, so you're not using the spell and the curse on the same turn, and you can't use the spell or the curse when you TWF. Note also that the spell consumes a spell slot - if you don't cast the spell and then short rest the slot back, you'll be down a Smite. You'll be down more Smites if you lose Concentration. Unless you use Spellcasting slots to cast Hex, which you can totally do - it's just that you don't have very many per day.

Don't forget your flourish damage!


Weapon can be spellcasting focus for Hexblade spells. And for protection you have shield, armor of agathys, and armor of hexes (50% miss chance). Plus a mirror image if you can anticipate the combat.

And your flourish. Presumably you chose Swords over Whispers, despite the reduced damage per inspiration die, for the bonus to AC.


Swords bard gets blade flourishes using inspiration dice, that can also be applied (no action) whenever you crit (and add to AC, slash his buddy, or knock him around). And extra attack (which saves an invocation). And proficiency with scimitars.

The scimitars are immaterial, since all Bards are proficient with shortswords and all Hexblades are proficient with all martial weapons. Likewise you don't gain medium armor proficiency from the Bard subclass, since you already have it from Hexblade.


Weapon can be spellcasting focus for Bard spells. Bard spells can be used for low-level staples like shield, mirror image,

Plus a fighting style: TWF or Duelling. That's what I want to ask about.

TWF with scimitars, then seems a good idea. With all this, the main scimitar can be my pact weapon, and my offhand weapon can also have Charisma to attack and damage (from the ritual you perform after a long rest).

Just so we're clear, only one of the two scimitars will be your actual Pact Weapon, and that one is the one that gets Improved Pact Weapon (which you must be taking, since you want to use the weapon as a Warlock focus). This works with shortswords exactly as well as it does with scimitars.


Scimitars apply your proficiency bonus to any attack (including offhand ones). So the only deficit that the offhand weapon has, is that the +CHA in necrotic damage from life drinker does not apply, and the +1 from improved Pact Weapon.

The offhand one is also not a Warlock focus, and importantly, consumes a Bonus Action to swing.


So the main weapon has two attacks at +12 to hit and does 2d6+18 to my cursed target, and the offhand weapon (bonus action) is +11 to hit and does 2d6+13

+18 should be +17 - 5 (Charisma, slashing or necrotic) + 5 (Charisma, necrotic, Lifedrinker) + 1 (IPW, slashing or necrotic) + 6 (PB, Hexblade's Curse, necrotic) + 1d6 (weapon, slashing) + 1d6 (Hex, necrotic) = 2d6 + 17, 2d6 + 11(no IPW, no Lifedrinker) with the offhand swing. You can't do this until turn 3 of combat at the earliest.


Your offhand weapon -

I don't always have a free bonus action. It's needed to cast Hex, or to curse my enemy. And there are a few other spells that could use a bonus action.

So why do the guides often state, as a matter of fact, that dueling is the better style for a Swords Bard/Hexblade? Dueling's +2 to all attacks is only +4 over the round, if all attacks hit.

5E is built to assume combat lasts 3 rounds. That means dueling adds 18 damage total, on top of letting you use a shield:

AC 17:
TWF, Round 1 (put up curse): (1d6+17)x2 = 7+34=41
TWF, Round 2 (put up Hex): (2d6+17)x2 = 48
TWF, Round 3: (2d6+17)x2 + 2d6 + 11 = 66 (and the weaker swing is at +11 accuracy, not +12)
Not included in math: OAs are performed with the Pact weapon, and TWF has no bearing.

AC 19:
Dueling, Round 1 (put up curse): (1d8+17)x2 = 43 (2 more than 41 above)
Dueling, Round 2 (put up Hex): (1d8 + 1d6+17)x2 = 50 (2 more than 48 above)
Dueling, Round 3: (1d8 + 1d6+17)x2= 50 (16 less than 66 above)
Not included in math: OAs are performed with the Pact weapon, which dueling applies to.

So net, TWF does 12 more damage than Dueling does, here, but with inferior accuracy on the swing at the end that makes the difference, and it doesn't help with OAs, and it makes your AC worse.


But a bonus action attack with the second weapon is 2d6+13, and offers yet another opportunity to crit and smite and/or use a blade flourish. Surely that is more value?

Once per battle? Definitely not.


It certainly seems better value that using Maddening Hex for a bonus action psychic damage attack on your cursed target of your proficiency bonus (with the chance of affecting the target's buddy). and that is often recommended as a good invocation for adding a bonus action attack.

Maddening Hex isn't an attack, but 11 damage in an AOE that can't miss is really, really good. Missing happens a lot. You're comparing 2d6+11 = 18 damage that can miss to 11 that can't - and that's against one target. Against more, Maddening Hex will blow your TWF swing's damage away.

[Gtdead]

I don't think that the point is that Dueling is better than TWF rather than Shield + 1h is better than Dual Wielding. DW uses your bonus action and messes up your action economy. It's only worthwhile on classes that either have no use for BA (I don't think there are any, except at very low levels), have built-in on hit effects (Bladesinger, Oathbreaker, Tenser's Transformation) or sneak attackers that get a second chance to apply SA if their firs attack misses.

[Kane0]

TWF largely sucks because there are better BA attacks from other sources and less investment, and everything else that needs BAs to use gets in the way as well.
I just patch that by moving TWF to the attack action instead of a BA when you have the Dual Wielder feat. Improves a mediocre feat and makes TWF good but not too good

[Chaos Jackal]

Maddening Hex isn't an attack, but 11 damage in an AOE that can't miss is really, really good. Missing happens a lot. You're comparing 2d6+11 = 18 damage that can miss to 11 that can't - and that's against one target. Against more, Maddening Hex will blow your TWF swing's damage away.

Νote that Maddening Hex isn't a damage roll and therefore shouldn't be affected by Hexblade's Curse.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks. Especially to quindraco for the detailed breakdown. That helps a lot.

So the main issue us that you do have other uses for bonus actions, and that without the Dual Wielder feat, you can't draw both weapons without it taking your action.

And you can't use a shield. But you do have shield spell, defensive flourishes, armor of agathys, and armor of hexes.

But you can draw your main pact weapon on the first round, while curse your main enemy and attack. Then on the second round, draw your second weapon as part of that round's attack, and then BA attack or cast Hex if it's not already running.

After low levels, Hex can be up and running for hours if cast from a 3rd level slot. And if I have a spare 5th level slot before a long rest, it can be up for the next 24 hours. So you don't need to the bonus action to cast Hex every encounter.

That means you could be able to use your second weapon as a bonus action attack in the second round of combat.

But still, not being able to use flourishes or smites, with the offhand attack makes it a bit worse. I was mostly looking at more hits means more chances to crit+smite or crit+flourish. But since it isn't an attack action or a pact weapon, you can't add the extra dice on a crit. :smallmad:

So if it's something to do with a bonus action when I have no other uses for one, it might not be that bad.

But there are other uses for a bonus action: ice field (to help generate advantage) misty step, healing word, even a banishing smite.

Though the Maddening Hex invocation only causes your charisma modifier; it's not a damage roll, so you don't get to add your proficiency bonus to it. So only +6 damage, not +11. It's not noting. But perhaps the invocations are more worthwhile.

So if you are taking maddening Hex for a bonus action damage AOE effect (though most of the time a single target), this is at least a chance of 2d6+11 damage (a good chance with advantage) compared to a guaranteed 6 psychic damage.

And while dueling helps with AOOs too, with War caster I can use Booming Blade for the attack (which is more dice to double if it crits). So being +2 more on top of 1d6+17+3d8 (+4d8 if they keep moving) isn't a huge factor.

Having a better AC, almost as good melee damage, and other uses for BA might be worth it after all.

Meh, it's a bit of a wash, as far as I can see.

It might be worth dueling. It means keeping bonus actions free for curses, hex, misty step. etc. And I can always use an ice field cantrip if I have nothing to do with a BA (to hopefully make enemies prone and gain advantage).

Thanks for the enlightenment, folks!

[Darc_Vader]

After low levels, Hex can be up and running for hours if cast from a 3rd level slot. And if I have a spare 5th level slot before a long rest, it can be up for the next 24 hours. So you don't need to the bonus action to cast Hex every encounter.

That means you could be able to use your second weapon as a bonus action attack in the second round of combat.


You don’t need to spend the slot to cast it if you have it up beforehand, but you would still need to use your bonus action apply Hex. That’s another part of the issue: when the Hexed target dies you have to spend another bonus action moving it to a new target, eating up even more of your offhand attacks.

[Eldariel]

If you want to be optimal, just go PAM + Quarterstaff and get all 3 attacks with the same weapon to which Dueling applies. This lets you wield a shield, get bonus action attacks to apply stuff to and have your Warlock stuff apply to everything. Note that AC is kinda "the more you have the better"-sorta deal so if you have good AC bonus sources, getting more from shield is just all the more valuable.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

If you want to be optimal, just go PAM + Quarterstaff and get all 3 attacks with the same weapon to which Dueling applies. This lets you wield a shield, get bonus action attacks to apply stuff to and have your Warlock stuff apply to everything. Note that AC is kinda "the more you have the better"-sorta deal so if you have good AC bonus sources, getting more from shield is just all the more valuable.

Pretty much this. Also works with spears where proficiency allows.
Fighting with 2 weapons is just so investment intensive to get close to where other fighting styles are. I had a new player recently who wanted to fight with 2 weapons, so I gave him an extra bonus to TWF. I think it was an extra AC point, but can't remember.

[Sception]

To make the most of dual wielding you want active bonuses that can be triggered on any melee weapon attack (not just attack actions), and/or passive bonuses that trigger automatically on every melee weapon attack. You want to have no significant competition for your bonus actions. And you want to have heavy pressure on your ASIs, because if you have spare feat slots you can get get better bonus action attack options out of polearm master or great weapon master or crossbow expert.

Taken together, if you want to make the most of dual wielding then you want to be a single classed paladin), specifically an oathbreaker if your DM allows it. Paladins have divine smite that can be triggered on any melee weapon attack. They eventually get Improved Divine Smite - pretty late at level 11, but if you're single classed you have a decent shot of seeing this on your character sheet before typical campaigns end - that triggers automatically on every melee weapon attack. Oathbreakers have a subclass aura at level 7 that further improves melee damage on all of their melee weapon attacks.

Outside of subclass features, most paladins don't have many significant bonus action options to compete with the off hand attack, and while there are some paladin spells worth casting, including Shield of Faith, Bless, and later on Spirit Shroud, for the most part a paladin can get along just fine saving most of their spell slots for divine smite, freeing up most of their bonus actions for off hand attacks - just remember that you have to spend your normal action on a regular attack action in order to make off hand attacks with your bonus action, so casting spells will eat into your off hand attacks regardless of whether the spell itself is cast with a standard or bonus action.

Paladins also have huge pressure on their ASIs, needing high scores in both Strength (or Dex, if you're not multiclassing anyway then Dexadin is definitely worth consideration) and charisma, and having many, many feats they'd love to take, including sentinel, alert, fey touched, resilient constitution, inspiring leader, and more. This means a paladin can easily pass on the more typical melee weapon feat options of polearm master or great weapon master in favor of other feats or just pure stat boosts without feeling like they're making a mistake in doing so.

True, paladins don't get the two weapon combat style, but that adds, what, at most 5 damage a round? Probably only +3 at most of the levels that see play, and that's if you hit with that one extra attack? Bah. +1 AC from defense style is better than that, especially since you have to give up a shield to make your off hand attacks. Or you could take Blind Fighting to work with fog cloud and darkness spells cast by party spellcasters. Or potentially by yourself even - Oathbreakers do have 'darkness' as an oath spell. Or, if nobody in the party has access to guidance, then you could take blessed warrior to pick that up yourself, along with a ranged cantrip like toll the dead to use if you ever get stuck at range. You're going for out of combat utility instead of combat power there, but guidance is A LOT of out of combat utility, so if your party doesn't have it otherwise then it's absolutely worth giving up a point of AC or a couple points of damage. Any of those would be better than the two weapon style even if you did have access to it, so missing it is hardly a knock against dual wielding paladins.

I'm not saying dual wielding is the best option for paladins. It isn't. You're still better with a sword & board, great weapon, or polearm master build, mostly because paladins who actually cast spells sometimes are generally a bit more powerful and more versatile than those who smite all their spell slots away. But the difference in strength between those options and dual wielding is nowhere near as great as it is for builds of pretty much any other class imo, especially if oathbreaker is on the table (though admittedly it usually isn't). So if you want to be a dual wielder in 5e, for the aesthetic if nothing else, then absolutely you should be playing a single classed paladin.

....


By contrast a hexblade, multiclassed or otherwise, has significant conflicts for their bonus actions, has multiple bonuses tied specifically to their pact weapon which then can't be used with their off hand weapon, and has relatively little pressure on their ASIs thanks to Hex Warrior and invocations that let you bypass some feats (I'm thinking specifically of the one that shores up your concentration saves without burning a feat on war caster or resilient). This means hexblades have plenty of room to take great weapon master and/or polearm master, both of which can be used to access bonus action attacks with your pact weapon, which can then benefit further from lifedrinker and eldritch smite.

As a bladelock, you can make your pact weapon take any form, so you don't even have to worry about whether you'll find rare magic item drops like enchanted glaives or halberds to stay viable against foes with resistance to mundane weapon damage, which can be a problem for polearm wielding fighters and paladins. Though magic spears are pretty common, work with polearm master thanks to errata, and can even be used with a shield, so the magic weapon problem for PAM builds isn't quite as bad as some make it out to be.

[Gignere]

As a bladelock, you can make your pact weapon take any form, so you don't even have to worry about whether you'll find rare magic item drops like enchanted glaives or halberds to stay viable against foes with resistance to mundane weapon damage, which can be a problem for polearm wielding fighters and paladins. Though magic spears are pretty common, work with polearm master thanks to errata, and can even be used with a shield, so the magic weapon problem for PAM builds isn't quite as bad as some make it out to be.

An easy way to grab bonus action attacks without any feats or even investment for a blade lock is to just make your pact weapon a double bladed scimitar. Also relieves the problem of having a free hand to cast too. The feat is still good because you can get +1 AC and +1 dex.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

To make the most of dual wielding you want active bonuses that can be triggered on any melee weapon attack (not just attack actions), and/or passive bonuses that trigger automatically on every melee weapon attack. You want to have no significant competition for your bonus actions. And you want to have heavy pressure on your ASIs, because if you have spare feat slots you can get get better bonus action attack options out of polearm master or great weapon master or crossbow expert.

Taken together, if you want to make the most of dual wielding then you want to be a single classed paladin), specifically an oathbreaker if your DM allows it. Paladins have divine smite that can be triggered on any melee weapon attack. They eventually get Improved Divine Smite - pretty late at level 11, but if you're single classed you have a decent shot of seeing this on your character sheet before typical campaigns end - that triggers automatically on every melee weapon attack. Oathbreakers have a subclass aura at level 7 that further improves melee damage on all of their melee weapon attacks.

Outside of subclass features, most paladins don't have many significant bonus action options to compete with the off hand attack, and while there are some paladin spells worth casting, including Shield of Faith, Bless, and later on Spirit Shroud, for the most part a paladin can get along just fine saving most of their spell slots for divine smite, freeing up most of their bonus actions for off hand attacks - just remember that you have to spend your normal action on a regular attack action in order to make off hand attacks with your bonus action, so casting spells will eat into your off hand attacks regardless of whether the spell itself is cast with a standard or bonus action.

Paladins also have huge pressure on their ASIs, needing high scores in both Strength (or Dex, if you're not multiclassing anyway then Dexadin is definitely worth consideration) and charisma, and having many, many feats they'd love to take, including sentinel, alert, fey touched, resilient constitution, inspiring leader, and more. This means a paladin can easily pass on the more typical melee weapon feat options of polearm master or great weapon master in favor of other feats or just pure stat boosts without feeling like they're making a mistake in doing so.

True, paladins don't get the two weapon combat style, but that adds, what, at most 5 damage a round? Probably only +3 at most of the levels that see play, and that's if you hit with that one extra attack? Bah. +1 AC from defense style is better than that, especially since you have to give up a shield to make your off hand attacks. Or you could take Blind Fighting to work with fog cloud and darkness spells cast by party spellcasters. Or potentially by yourself even - Oathbreakers do have 'darkness' as an oath spell. Or, if nobody in the party has access to guidance, then you could take blessed warrior to pick that up yourself, along with a ranged cantrip like toll the dead to use if you ever get stuck at range. You're going for out of combat utility instead of combat power there, but guidance is A LOT of out of combat utility, so if your party doesn't have it otherwise then it's absolutely worth giving up a point of AC or a couple points of damage. Any of those would be better than the two weapon style even if you did have access to it, so missing it is hardly a knock against dual wielding paladins.

I'm not saying dual wielding is the best option for paladins. It isn't. You're still better with a sword & board, great weapon, or polearm master build, mostly because paladins who actually cast spells sometimes are generally a bit more powerful and more versatile than those who smite all their spell slots away. But the difference in strength between those options and dual wielding is nowhere near as great as it is for builds of pretty much any other class imo, especially if oathbreaker is on the table (though admittedly it usually isn't). So if you want to be a dual wielder in 5e, for the aesthetic if nothing else, then absolutely you should be playing a single classed paladin.

....


By contrast a hexblade, multiclassed or otherwise, has significant conflicts for their bonus actions, has multiple bonuses tied specifically to their pact weapon which then can't be used with their off hand weapon, and has relatively little pressure on their ASIs thanks to Hex Warrior and invocations that let you bypass some feats (I'm thinking specifically of the one that shores up your concentration saves without burning a feat on war caster or resilient). This means hexblades have plenty of room to take great weapon master and/or polearm master, both of which can be used to access bonus action attacks with your pact weapon, which can then benefit further from lifedrinker and eldritch smite.

As a bladelock, you can make your pact weapon take any form, so you don't even have to worry about whether you'll find rare magic item drops like enchanted glaives or halberds to stay viable against foes with resistance to mundane weapon damage, which can be a problem for polearm wielding fighters and paladins. Though magic spears are pretty common, work with polearm master thanks to errata, and can even be used with a shield, so the magic weapon problem for PAM builds isn't quite as bad as some make it out to be.

I think the other thing that is a benefit of strength based dual wielding over most other options is your access to potential magic weapons. Only S+B without relying on PAM weapons is as versatile. Obviously this is table dependent, but certainly in both published adventures and DMG treasure tables it's pretty consistent that you will have the best chance to get a usable magic weapon. If you pigeonhole yourself into just Rapiers or just Spear/Staff or just reach weapons you may find yourself lacking a magic item that fully utilizes the Feats and fighting style you've picked.
I'd personally never let a martial get too far into tier 2 without some sort of a magic weapon to suit their desired build, but I also don't feel the need to fully tailor a high powered magic weapon to someone who has picked one of the high damage builds either. So my new player who did dual wield his way through DiA had that advantage as well. Again though, this is table + DM dependent, so that might be a conversation the OP needs to have.

[Sception]

An easy way to grab bonus action attacks without any feats or even investment for a blade lock is to just make your pact weapon a double bladed scimitar. Also relieves the problem of having a free hand to cast too. The feat is still good because you can get +1 AC and +1 dex.

If the double scimitar is available, then by all means, use that. It's an eberron specific weapon that, ime, isn't usually available elsewhere, and even in eberron they can be tricky to come by if you're not an elf.

But yeah, a fantastic weapon choice for hexblades if your dm allows it, one that can get you that two weapon feel without the hassle of actually using two weapons.

[Gignere]

If the double scimitar is available, then by all means, use that. It's an eberron specific weapon that, ime, isn't usually available elsewhere, and even in eberron they can be tricky to come by if you're not an elf.

But yeah, a fantastic weapon choice for hexblades if your dm allows it, one that can get you that two weapon feel without the hassle of actually using two weapons.

Yeah it maybe hard for anyone but a blade lock, since their pact weapon can take any form, even weapons that might not exist in their specific multiverse.

If the PC can conceivably have heard of it or cough cough supplied the knowledge from other multiverse of existence by their patrons they can make such a weapon.

[TheMango55]

I also was going to mention double bladed scimitar. Gives all the advantage of two weapon fighting but you have a hand free for casting (no warcaster needed, just take eldritch mind invocation), don’t have to sacrifice your attribute damage, and you only have one weapon so you don’t need to worry about which is your pact weapon.

And with blade pact you don’t have to worry about actually finding one.

[Warlush]

Sounds like a super fun build. See if your DM will let you play one style for a few sessions and then swap for a few. I bet TWF will be a lot of fun and a lot more effective than the white room critics would have guessed.

[strangebloke]

to put this into perspective, TWF is worse than Dueling on a fighter who has few uses for his bonus action and also gets the TWF style.

You are not a fighter and have many uses for your bonus action, and you do not have the TWF fighting style.

[Hiro Quester]

Well, with swords bard you can have either TWF or Dueling fighting styles.

I’m now more inclined to take the dueling style. It’s true that I have too many good uses for bonus actions. I’d rarely use the bonus action attack.

Edit: the double-bladed scimitar would be cool. But it usually takes a feat to use. It would feel cheesy to just pact weapon one.

[Hytheter]

Edit: the double-bladed scimitar would be cool. But it usually takes a feat to use. It would feel cheesy to just pact weapon one.

It only takes a feat if you want to use it as a finesse weapon. Strength characters can use it without taking a feat just fine.

[Witty Username]

It depends on how free your hands are and what you do with your bonus action.
My hex bard used dueling, for three reasons, hex, bardic inspiration, and lack of warcaster.
My bonus action was already doing stuff periodically and because I didn't take warcaster I needed a hand free for casting.

If you take warcaster, and don't plan on using bardic inspiration outside of flourishes and take something other than hex. Then TWF is decent.

Note dueling technically has a +3 per attack because of higher dice of non-light weapons.
Part of the reason I went dueling was because of a Longsword I liked.

You will still have some opportunity cost with hexblade's Curse and healing word. But hopefully healing word is for emergencies and Curse can be thrown out with a spell if your first turn has a higher priority than attacking.

[Hiro Quester]

It is tempting…. A swords bard hexblade does not need a weapon to be a finesse weapon. They use cha for attack and damage. TWF does require light weapon in each hand.

But the extra damage of the bonus action attack (vs a cursed and hexed target, with lifedrinker) of d6 (weapon) +d6 (hex) +cha +prof(curse) +cha(lifedrinker) is not insignificant. Much more than maddening hex. Even if maddening hex is guaranteed damage, elven accuracy and several ways to generate advantage mean I will usually hit.

A scimitar of speed might be a good compromise, if my character can find one eventually. Make another regular attack as a bonus action, even while using dueling style and a shield.

That way I can use a shield (I’m taking warcaster at 8) and have a bonus action attack option, whenever I have nothing to do with my bonus action.

Other uses for bonus action include
uttering curse
casting hex
casting ice field (if I don’t have another source of advantage)
casting misty step
casting healing word

are there other really good bonus action spells I should consider? (Banishing smite is good. Wrathful smite, too. But they take concentration, and compete with hex (which otherwise can be maintained for hours).

thats not a huge list. If, on major encounters I’m not engaging in melee immediately (cast scatter, or something like that), then I’m not using my bonus action attack anyway. After moving in on round two, and cursing my main target, I’m often able to make a bonus action attack on round 3 and thereafter.

it might be good to ask DM a if I can try switching fighting styles. Try it out and see how it works in practice.

[Gignere]

It only takes a feat if you want to use it as a finesse weapon. Strength characters can use it without taking a feat just fine.

Or in the case of hexblade bladelock use charisma with it just fine without the feat.

[Witty Username]

to put this into perspective, TWF is worse than Dueling on a fighter who has few uses for his bonus action and also gets the TWF style.

You are not a fighter and have many uses for your bonus action, and you do not have the TWF fighting style.

Real quick Swords bard can get the TWF style, the rest of your point is fair though.

[strangebloke]

Real quick Swords bard can get the TWF style, the rest of your point is fair though.

My bad. Still a relevant point for quite a few levels of the game however, especially if you start with hexblade (as I think you should)