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View Full Version : Pathfinder Bronze Wing Dragonrider V2.0 - Updated [PEACH]



Palanan
2021-08-10, 10:29 PM
Here follows the updated dragonrider prestige class for the Bronze Wing campaign (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634982-Bronze-Wing-Dragon-Riders-at-World%92s-End), intended for riders paired with Young bronze dragons. Each rider's dragon is termed his flight partner.

Hit Die: d10.

Requirements:
Alignment: any non-evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +2.
Skills: Ride 5 ranks.
Special: The dragonrider must possess a deep and sincere loyalty to his homeland, and must have demonstrated exceptional bravery and dedication while acting on its behalf.

Class Skills: The dragonrider’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Ride (Dex), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) and Survival (Wis).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.




Saves

Spells Per Day


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


1st
+1
+0
+1
+1
Flight partner, flight officer, dragon lore, draconic nuance, dragonmounted, windforged, fight as one, share spells
3
1





2nd
+2
+1
+1
+1
Bonus combat feat, arcane fluidity
4
2





3rd
+3
+1
+2
+2
Bonus teamwork feat, seventh sense
4
3





4th
+4
+1
+2
+2
Bonus combat feat, serpentine save
4
3
1




5th
+5
+2
+3
+3
Situational awareness
4
4
2




6th
+6
+2
+3
+3
Bonus teamwork feat, bonus combat feat
4
4
3




7th
+7
+2
+4
+4
Spellboost
4
4
3
1



8th
+8
+3
+4
+4
Bonus combat feat, breath blade
4
4
4
2



9th
+9
+3
+5
+5
Bonus teamwork feat
4
5
4
3



10th
+10
+3
+5
+5
Bonus combat feat, breath channel
4
5
4
3
1





The following are class features of the dragonrider prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dragonrider gains proficiency with the lance, longspear, crossbow, longbow and shortbow, and with all shields except tower shields. He is proficient with light and medium armor, but not with heavy armor.

Flight Partner: At first level, the dragonrider forms a close working partnership with a specific individual bronze dragon. Some benefits of the dragonrider prestige class only apply when the dragonrider is mounted on his flight partner. For the purposes of this prestige class, a dragonrider is considered mounted when the dragon is in its native dragon form; these benefits do not apply if the dragon is in humanoid form. If the flight partner dies while the dragonrider is mounted, the dragonrider must train with another dragon for a minimum of one month before that dragon is considered a new flight partner. The dragonrider takes a -2 penalty on all Ride checks and attack rolls for the first week while mounted on his new flight partner.

[DM note: in the sad event that a dragon is lost, the training with another dragon will be done via montage, to ensure the player isn’t sitting out any sessions.]

Flight Officer (Ex): Dragonriders have a high status in their homeland, which grants them the following benefits:

Native-Born Hero: A dragonrider adds his class level to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks involving other citizens of the realm, both within the kingdom proper and wherever encountered in the lands beyond. This bonus does not apply to a dragonrider's flight partner or to any other dragons.

Requisition: Each month, a dragonrider may select a combination of weapons worth no more than 1000 gp from the royal armory for personal use, provided he gives his word the weapons will be returned in a month’s time. A dragonrider may also select up to 500 gp worth of non-combat magic items (including consumables such as potions and scrolls) once per month. Abuse of this privilege may result in its suspension and/or disciplinary hearings.

Royal Favor: Dragonriders are expected to be deferential to all members of the royal family at all times, but a dragonrider’s status also allows for circumspect access to royal ears. Once per month, a dragonrider may request a favor from a member of the royal family. These requests are typically made on behalf of others, e.g. to expedite a pardon or provide a venue for a marriage, and should never be for the dragonrider’s personal profit. Dragonriders should expect to be called upon to perform a favor in return, either immediately or at some time in the future.

Dragon Lore (Ex): Dragonriders have studied the history, legends, and physical nature of dragonkind. A dragonrider gains a +2 insight bonus on all Knowledge checks pertaining to dragons.

Draconic Nuance (Ex): When dealing with dragons, a dragonrider gains an insight bonus on all Diplomacy checks equal to his dragonrider level. He gains an additional +2 to this bonus when dealing with his flight partner.

Dragonmounted (Ex): While mounted on a dragon, a dragonrider may add his dragonrider level to any Ride checks involving that dragon. If he is mounted on his flight partner, the dragonrider may add twice his dragonrider level to any Ride checks involving his flight partner. While mounted on his flight partner, a dragonrider does not take armor check penalties on Ride checks while wearing light or medium armor.

Windforged (Ex): The sheer audacity of flying on a dragon, thousands of feet above the unforgiving earth, toughens the soul and hardens one’s resolve. A dragonrider gains a +2 bonus on Will saves. This bonus increases to +4 when the dragonrider is mounted on his flight partner.

Fight As One: At first level, a dragonrider gains a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. Your flight partner gains the benefits of every teamwork feat you possess, even if it doesn't meet the prerequisites, except that it may only use them with you. This counts as the Bonded Mind feat for meeting prerequisites. You gain one additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat at 3rd, 6th and 9th levels.

Spellcasting: Dragons have strong personalities—and they can’t help showing off what they know—so it’s difficult not to pick up a few things while living in close proximity with them. Beginning at first level, a dragonrider gains the ability to cast a limited number of arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard list. A dragonrider can cast any spell he knows without needing to prepare it in advance.

Your caster level for dragonrider spells is equal to your class level + your existing levels in any one arcane spellcasting class. Your spells known follow the first ten levels of bard spells known, as given in Table 3-4 on p. 37 of the CRB.

Share Spells: A dragonrider may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his flight partner (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A dragonrider may cast spells on his flight partner even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the dragon type. Spells cast in this way must be those granted by the dragonrider prestige class. This ability does not allow the flight partner to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Reverse Share Spells: A flight partner may cast a spell with a target of "You" on its dragonrider (as a touch spell) instead of on itself. It may cast spells on the dragonrider even if they do not normally affect creatures of their type. This ability does not allow the dragonrider to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells. The flight partner's caster level for its racial spellcasting ability is equal to the dragonrider’s caster level or its own, whichever is higher.

Bonus Combat Feat: At second level, a dragonrider gains a bonus combat feat drawn from the following list: Armored Rider, Combat Casting, Improved Mounted Archery, Intimidating Prowess, Mounted Archery, Mounted Blade, Mounted Combat, Mounted Shield, Mounted Skirmisher, Trick Riding, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. He must meet all the prerequisites for this feat. He gains additional bonus feats from this list at every subsequent even-numbered level.

Arcane Fluidity (Su): At second level, as a swift action, a dragonrider can spend a spell slot to grant himself or his flight partner one of the following bonuses for 1 round:

- A bonus to attack rolls, AC, or saving throws equal to the spell’s level. This bonus also applies to natural weapons.

- A bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to twice the spell’s level. This bonus also applies to natural weapons.

Seventh Sense (Ex): At third level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have developed such a deep rapport that they are able to communicate silently as long as they are within sixty feet of each other. This communication is based on the subtlest of visual cues, and is not telepathy nor an empathic link.

Serpentine Save (Ex): At fourth level, a dragonrider has learned to anticipate and move with the impossibly sinuous evasive maneuvers of his flight partner. Once per combat, while mounted on his flight partner, the dragonrider may roll twice for a Reflex save and take the better result. At seventh level, he may use this ability twice per combat, and at tenth level he may use it three times per combat.

Situational Awareness (Ex): At fifth level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have developed a knack for constantly assessing the sky around them. While the dragonrider is mounted on his flight partner, neither can be flanked.

Spellboost (Su): At seventh level, a dragonrider and his flight partner are able to shunt magic between them as needed to enhance one or the other’s spellcasting. While they are in physical contact, when either one casts a spell, the other may sacrifice a spell slot as a standard action to apply the effects of one of the following metamagic feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Maximise Spell or Widen Spell.

Breath Blade (Ex): At eighth level, as a standard action, the dragonrider's flight partner may use its breath weapon to enhance the power of its rider's weapons. This may affect up to two weapons, or a weapon and a shield. If using unarmed strikes or natural weapons, this affects all of them. Each ability is only usable as an attack action or alongside vital strike and the effect only activates once per round. When a melee weapon is affected, the rider's reach with it becomes equal to the range on the breath weapon used. If a ranged weapon is used, then the ranged weapon has its range increments extended by half the length of the dragon's breath weapon. This ability only lasts for a number of successful hits equal to the Rider's cha mod or 1 minute, whichever is shorter. Activating this is treated as if the dragon had used its respective breath weapon unmodified this round.

Electricity: The rider's weapon deals additional damage equal to half the damage dice of the dragon's breath weapon and counts the target's electricity resistance as 10 points lower(to a minimum of 0). This is damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by vital strike.

Repulsion Breath: The first successful attack each round affects the target as if they were hit with the dragon's Repulsion breath, except the save DC is increased by the rider's charisma modifier.

Breath Channel (Su): At tenth level, a dragonrider and his flight partner can coordinate their attacks to fuse magic and a dragon’s most potent weapon. When his flight partner uses a breath weapon, the dragonrider can simultaneously channel a spell through the breath weapon, affecting every creature within the breath weapon’s area of effect.



Initial Version

Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
Alignment: any non-evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Ride 5 ranks.
Special: The dragonrider must possess a deep and sincere loyalty to his homeland, and must have demonstrated exceptional bravery and dedication while acting on its behalf.

Class Skills
The dragonrider’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Ride (Dex), Perception (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) and Survival (Wis).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.





Saves

Spells Per Day


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


1st
+1
+0
+1
+1
Draconic nuance, dragonmounted, bonus teamwork feat, share spells
3
1





2nd
+2
+1
+1
+1
Bonus combat feat
4
2





3rd
+3
+1
+2
+2
Bonus teamwork feat, seventh sense
4
3





4th
+4
+1
+2
+2
Bonus combat feat, serpentine save
4
3
1




5th
+5
+2
+3
+3
Situational awareness
4
4
2




6th
+6
+2
+3
+3
Bonus teamwork feat, bonus combat feat
4
4
3




7th
+7
+2
+4
+4
Spellboost
4
4
3
1



8th
+8
+3
+4
+4
Bonus combat feat
4
4
4
2



9th
+9
+3
+5
+5
Bonus teamwork feat
4
5
4
3



10th
+10
+3
+5
+5
Bonus combat feat, fuse spells
4
5
4
3
1





The following are class features of the dragonrider prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dragonrider gains proficiency with the lance, longspear, crossbow, longbow and shortbow. He is proficient with light and medium armor, but not with heavy armor or shields.

Draconic Nuance (Ex): When dealing with dragons, a dragonrider gains an insight bonus on all Diplomacy checks equal to his dragonrider level. He gains an additional +2 to this bonus when dealing with his flight partner.

Dragonmounted (Ex): While mounted on a dragon, a dragonrider may add his dragonrider level to any Ride checks involving that dragon. If he is mounted on his flight partner, the dragonrider may add twice his dragonrider level to any Ride checks involving his flight partner.

Bonus Teamwork Feat: At first level, a dragonrider gains a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. As a standard action, he can grant this feat to his flight partner, as long as the latter is within thirty feet and able to see and hear the dragonrider. The flight partner can use this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round per level of dragonrider. The dragonrider can use this ability once at first level, and one additional time each at third, sixth, and ninth levels. The dragonrider gains additional bonus teamwork feats at third, sixth and ninth levels.

Spellcasting: Dragons have strong personalities—and they can’t help showing off what they know—so it’s difficult not to pick up a few things while living in close proximity with them. Beginning at first level, a dragonrider gains the ability to cast a limited number of arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard list. A dragonrider can cast any spell he knows without needing to prepare it in advance.

Share Spells: A dragonrider may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his flight partner (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A dragonrider may cast spells on his flight partner even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the dragon type. Spells cast in this way must be those granted by the dragonrider prestige class. This ability does not allow the flight partner to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Bonus Combat Feat: At second level, a dragonrider gains a bonus combat feat drawn from the following list: Combat Casting, Intimidating Prowess, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. He must meet all the prerequisites for this feat. He gains additional bonus feats from this list at every subsequent even-numbered level.

Seventh Sense (Ex): At third level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have developed such a deep rapport that they are able to communicate silently as long as they are within sixty feet of each other. This communication is based on the subtlest of visual cues, and is not telepathy nor an empathic link.

Serpentine Save (Ex): At fourth level, a dragonrider has learned to anticipate and move with the impossibly sinuous evasive maneuvers of his flight partner. Once per combat, while mounted on his flight partner, the dragonrider may roll twice for a Reflex save and take the better result. At seventh level, he may use this ability twice per combat, and at tenth level he may use it three times per combat.

Situational Awareness (Ex): At fifth level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have developed a knack for constantly surveying the sky around them. While the dragonrider is mounted on his flight partner, neither can be flanked.

Spellboost (Su): At seventh level, a dragonrider and his flight partner are able to shunt magic between them as needed to enhance one or the other’s spellcasting. When either one casts a spell, the other may sacrifice a spell slot to either 1) maximize the spell’s numerical effects or 2) apply the effect of a metamagic feat. The dragonrider may only use spells granted by the dragonrider prestige class for this ability.

Fuse Spells (Su): At tenth level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have studied and practiced magic together so intensively that they are able to weave separate castings into a single spell effect. As a full-round action, the dragonrider and his flight partner may fuse the effects of any two arcane spells they are capable of casting.

.

pi4t
2021-08-11, 04:31 AM
Technical comments:

The bab+3 requirement means half bab classes can't enter this until level 7. Is this intentional? (I'm asking because it basically bans those classes for the game you're running, given the build rules.)
You've used the base class text for proficiencies. It's a bit strange for a prestige class to specify that you aren't proficient in something.
Bonus teamwork feat could do with a different name, since it gives more than just a bonus feat. Also, is the ability usable once per day? Per combat? Per level?
You haven't given a spells known table.
I don't understand the mechanics of fuse spells. Is there some text missing?

pi4t
2021-08-11, 05:23 AM
More general comments:

Maybe I'm used to higher power games, but I can't imagine myself taking any more of this class than I have to as it is. My problem with it is that it doesn't really function like a good prestige class should. It feels more like a base class which only has ten levels and which you can't take until level 6.

There's almost always some inherent synergy in taking the same class throughout your career. Of course, that's most famously true for casters, but it's true for most other classes as well: abilities you gained at lower levels scale automatically with your class level, you get a favoured class bonus, and the class abilities are designed to be used together so they (hopefully) synergise well with each other.

If you take a prestige class you lose all that. So if you want the prestige class to be tempting for players you need to either make abilities which will synergise with the class abilities that you already have, or make them more impressive to make up for the lost synergy.

With this class, a lot of the abilities are based around its own spellcasting, which doesn't interact with anything that came before. The teamwork feats don't synergise well either: if your class features involve teamwork feats then you'll have some ability to share them around already. Probably better than you get from this class. The combat feats are too early in their feat chains to help someone who was building around them - if my build really calls for spirited charge or weapon focus I'll be getting it a lot sooner than 7th level.

So the class doesn't work very well with whatever base class you took. Do we get any fancy abilities in return? Not really. 4 levels of spellcasting and the option to burn those limited slots to enhance other spells. A bonus feat per level (ish) but chosen from a very restricted list. Uncanny Dodge. Advantage on one type of save. Non-magic telepathy sounds nice, but it's with a single character, over close range, and presumably only when you can see each other. By the time you're getting it, the wizard is one level off being able to cast telepathic bond.

These abilities are ok but there's nothing which stands out or makes me want to leave my current class for them. If this was a base class with 20 levels they would all be perfectly fine class features. But it isn't and I think it needs a buff if you want to see it used.

Of course that's just my opinion and the others might disagree.

Prime32
2021-08-11, 09:14 AM
The bab+3 requirement means half bab classes can't enter this until level 7. Is this intentional? (I'm asking because it basically bans those classes for the game you're running, given the build rules.)

Suggested revisions which would support a larger number of entries:


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dragonrider gains proficiency with the lance, longspear, crossbow, longbow and shortbow, as well as with light and medium armor.

Flight Partner: At 1st level you form a bond with a specific bronze dragon, known as your flight partner. Your flight partner gains increased natural armor, Str/Dex bonuses and special abilities as if it were an animal companion (using your class level as your effective druid level for determining its abilities). E.g. at 6th level they would gain +4 natural armor, +2 Str/Dex, and the Link, Share Spells, Evasion and Devotion abilities. At the GM's option, your flight partner may also possess an animal companion archetype (https://aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?Class=Companion).

If you already have an animal companion (or an ability which functions like it, such as a cavalier mount), then you must dismiss it when you enter this prestige class; however, you add your level in the class which granted that companion to your Bronze Wing Dragonrider level for determining your flight partner's abilities. In addition, your flight partner counts as your companion of that type for all purposes, gaining any additional or modified abilities as appropriate. E.g. the flight partner of a cavalier 5/bronze wing dragonrider 1 gains bonuses as a 6th-level cavalier mount; it has light armor proficiency but not the Share Spells ability, and the dragonrider does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding it.

Draconic Nuance (Ex): A dragonrider gains an insight bonus on Diplomacy and Ride checks equal to his class level, but only when dealing with dragons. This bonus increases by +4 when dealing with his flight partner.

Fight as One: At 1st level, you and your flight partner may communicate as if you had the Bonded Mind (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bonded%20Mind) feat. Your flight partner also gains the benefits of every teamwork feat you possess, even if it doesn't meet the prerequisites, except that it may only use them with you. This counts as the Bonded Mind feat for meeting prerequisites.
In addition you gain one teamwork feat as a bonus feat at 3rd, 6th and 9th levels.

Reverse Share Spells: A flight partner may cast a spell with a target of "You" on its dragonrider (as a touch spell) instead of on itself. It may cast spells on the dragonrider even if they do not normally affect creatures of their type. This ability does not allow the dragonrider to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Spellcasting: Dragons have strong personalities—and they can’t help showing off what they know—so it’s difficult not to pick up a few things while living in close proximity with them. Beginning at first level, a dragonrider gains the ability to cast a limited number of arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard list. A dragonrider can cast any spell he knows without needing to prepare it in advance.

Your caster level for dragonrider spells is equal to your class level + your existing levels in arcane spellcasting classes. Your flight partner's caster level for its racial spellcasting ability is equal to this caster level or its own, whichever is higher.

Your spells known are given below:


Level
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


1st
2
1
-
-
-


2nd
3
1
-
-
-


3rd
3
2
-
-
-


4th
4
2
1
-
-


5th
4
3
1
-
-


6th
4
3
2
-
-


7th
4
4
2
1
-


8th
4
4
3
1
-


9th
4
4
3
2
-


10th
4
4
4
2
1



Bonus Combat Feat: At 2nd level, a dragonrider gains a bonus combat feat drawn from the following list: Armored Rider, Combat Casting, Intimidating Prowess, Improved Mounted Archery, Mounted Archery, Mounted Blade, Mounted Combat, Mounted Shield, Mounted Skirmisher, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Trick Riding, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. He must meet all the prerequisites for this feat. He gains additional bonus feats from this list at every subsequent even-numbered level.

Serpentine Save (Ex): At 4th level, a dragonrider has learned to anticipate and move with the impossibly sinuous evasive maneuvers of his flight partner. Once per combat, while mounted on his flight partner, the dragonrider may roll twice for a Reflex save and take the better result. At seventh level, he may use this ability twice per combat, and at tenth level he may use it three times per combat.

Situational Awareness (Ex): At 5th level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have developed a knack for constantly surveying the sky around them. While the dragonrider is mounted on his flight partner, neither can be flanked.

Spellboost (Su): At 7th level, a dragonrider and his flight partner are able to shunt magic between them as needed to enhance one or the other’s spellcasting. While they are in physical contact, when either one casts a spell, the other may sacrifice a spell slot as a standard action to apply the effects of one of the following metamagic feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Maximise Spell or Widen Spell.

Fuse Spells (Su): At 10th level, a dragonrider and his flight partner have studied and practiced magic together so intensively that they are able to weave separate castings into a single spell effect. As a full-round action, the dragonrider and his flight partner may fuse the effects of any two arcane spells they are capable of casting.

It seems fine to grant teamwork feats automatically, since mount-only is limited. Hunter gets a stronger version of that at lv3 even, with its Hunter Tactics class feature. Also, replacing Seventh Sense with the similar Bonded Mind feat opens up a larger number of teamwork feats.

Added more mount-related feats to the Bonus Combat Feat list, since a lot of the options are things that characters are likely to have before entering the class.

Spellboost needed some kind of restriction on the metamagic feats you can use to prevent abuse, but restricting it to dragonrider spells only is both confusing (for whether it applies to the dragon) and not really a necessary nerf (since it requires so many levels in dragonrider that your spells from other classes won't be that powerful).

I'm not sure where Fuse Spells was going, so I left it as-is.

QuadraticGish
2021-08-11, 01:51 PM
Suggested revisions which would support a larger number of entries:


It seems fine to grant teamwork feats automatically, since mount-only is limited (and this way means it doesn't clash with similar abilities like Tactician, for those who want to teamwork with the whole party). Replacing Seventh Sense with the Bonded Mind feat also opens up a larger number of teamwork feats.

Added more mount-related feats to the Bonus Combat Feat list, since a lot of the options are things that characters are likely to have before entering the class.

Spellboost needed some kind of restriction on the metamagic feats you can use to prevent abuse, but restricting it to dragonrider spells only is both confusing (for whether it applies to the dragon) and not really a necessary nerf (since it requires so many levels in dragonrider that your spells from other classes won't be that powerful).

I'm not sure where Fuse Spells was going, so I left it as-is.
What about allowing dragons to possess their own archetypes instead of Animal Companion ones? You could pull ideas from Dragons of Eberron and the Sovereign archetypes there. You could have a basic set of abilities that provide scaling regardless and then have extended abilities provided as the PC climbs the PrC.

Prime32
2021-08-11, 03:50 PM
What about allowing dragons to possess their own archetypes instead of Animal Companion ones? You could pull ideas from Dragons of Eberron and the Sovereign archetypes there. You could have a basic set of abilities that provide scaling regardless and then have extended abilities provided as the PC climbs the PrC.Because 1. those archetypes are already implied to be legal, and this is just clarifying that they're an option. 2. creating a whole new set of archetypes would be a lot of added work and complexity for not a lot of gain. 3. Palanan is designing the dragons in this campaign so presumably the players wouldn't have total control over which archetype it has.

Palanan
2021-08-12, 05:04 PM
Okay, I appreciate everyone’s comments, and will address the ones from the recruiting thread first:



Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
I don't know where you exactly want the comments, but I'll post my thoughts here and do my best to be objective.

I appreciate your detailed responses in the recruiting thread. I’ll repost some of them here, but feel free to add additional comments or reiterate points I might have overlooked.


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Can't complain too much, but I do want to point out that maybe you want go with all shields except for tower shields because when you are mounted the lance becomes a one-handed weapon. Having shields would enable PCs coming in to enable it.

Good point about shields and lances, I’ll make that change.


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
Bonus Teamwork Feats: A bonus feat is nice, but due to the duration I would seriously consider having the dragon take the teamwork feat themselves instead rather than rely on an incredibly short duration.

What would you suggest as a more workable duration?


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
Spellcasting: Doesn't work as written. I know it's supposed to be a spontaneous caster, but nowhere is listed how many spells known the class gets.

I was posting late at night and couldn’t bring myself to fight with a second table. The first one was trouble enough.

As it is, the spells-known follows the first ten levels of bard progression.


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
Bonus Combat Feat: small, but thematically appropriate. Though I can't help but think most would have Mounted combat coming in. i also want to note that with the current prereqs that many coming in would not qualify for weapon specialization.

It is indeed a small list, and I’m open to suggestions along the same lines to expand it a little.


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
*Fuse Spells*

I feel like there should be some fairly impressive capstone, something to combine human and draconic casting, so I’m open to thematic alternatives.


Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
I honestly think this is a prestige suitable for characters that don't not already have an existing subsystem for their class or are barely touching it.

Can you clarify what you mean here? I appreciate all of your comments, but I can’t follow your syntax in this line.


Originally Posted by GentlemanVoodoo
Looking at the PrC a bit more for the level 10 ability I can see what your going for. However, I think this may need some reworking to provide other benefits than just casting two spells and combining the effects. There are some teamwork feats already that have the same set up but provide different abilities such as Metamagical Synergy, Allied Spellcaster, and Elemental Commixture. It might be worth to use those as a guide for some additional benefits to combining two spells at once.

Aha, thanks for the suggestions. Will give those a look.


Originally Posted by pi4t
The bab+3 requirement means half bab classes can't enter this until level 7. Is this intentional?

It wasn’t intended against any class in particular, more from a general sense that there should be some decent combat ability in prospective dragonriders. But if someone really wants to play one of those classes I can work with them.


Originally Posted by pi4t
These abilities are ok but there's nothing which stands out or makes me want to leave my current class for them. If this was a base class with 20 levels they would all be perfectly fine class features. But it isn't and I think it needs a buff if you want to see it used.

I appreciate your detailed thoughts here. What were you thinking in terms of making it stand out?


Originally Posted by Prime32
Suggested revisions which would support a larger number of entries:

These are some great suggestions, definitely appreciated. I may not use all of them, but will certainly be incorporating a number of them. And your phrasing for rules text is much more fluid than mine.

QuadraticGish
2021-08-13, 12:27 AM
Half-asleep, but I'm gonna touch on what I can.





What would you suggest as a more workable duration?
Well, I notice that bonus teamwork feat is only effective with your selected flight partner instead of other dragons. The cavalier gets the same duration scaling but they can affect all allies within 30ft. Honestly, because at most this affects the PC and one other ally I'd say you could consider going for the rage rounds formula, or just make the feats permanent for both.





It is indeed a small list, and I’m open to suggestions along the same lines to expand it a little.I'll try to think of some when I'm more conscious.




I feel like there should be some fairly impressive capstone, something to combine human and draconic casting, so I’m open to thematic alternatives.Same as above.





Can you clarify what you mean here? I appreciate all of your comments, but I can’t follow your syntax in this line.
Its features don't offer a continuation of anything like rage, or spellcasting. So those classes that have significant scaling features like that have a lot to lose entering the prestige class for a level where as a class like Fighter doesn't. So those sorts of classes are far more likely to give the PrC a hard pass. I'm like half-asleep writing this, so I hope this gets across correctly.

Palanan
2021-08-13, 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
I'm like half-asleep writing this, so I hope this gets across correctly.

That’s pretty much where I was when I typed up this PrC, so I hear you. :smalltongue:

QuadraticGish
2021-08-14, 09:45 AM
Alright, I've been thinking on Fuse Spells for a bit and I have three ideas and it might be best to have them as capstone choices considering what you wanna do? Anyway, here it is.


Arcane Wrath: Something similar to Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath from Abjurant Champion and Jade Phoenix mage. Tl;dr both could spend a spellslot on each other to empower one another directly.
Spell Boost: Similar in vein to the one above. One sacrifices a spell to grant the partner the following effects for one round or until they cast a spell: The benefits of intensified spell, but the damage dice cap is increased by cha mod. Also included is a caster level bonus equal to 5 + cha mod.
Dragonrider specific list: Make a list of specialty spells that have powerful scaling effects.

That's what I got so far. Whatever you do with the capstone, you might want to leave some form of scaling in it just case things run beyond level 15.

Prime32
2021-08-14, 10:09 AM
What if the capstone ability let the rider channel a spell through their dragon's breath weapon, affecting every creature in its radius?

Palanan
2021-08-14, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
Alright, I've been thinking on Fuse Spells for a bit and I have three ideas and it might be best to have them as capstone choices considering what you wanna do?

Okay, I appreciate the options here. Arcane Wrath seems especially appropriate.


Originally Posted by Prime32
What if the capstone ability let the rider channel a spell through their dragon's breath weapon, affecting every creature in its radius?

And I love this idea. Bronzes have two breath weapons, a line and a cone, which would make for added flexibility.

QuadraticGish
2021-08-14, 12:57 PM
Let me dig through the prototype I had for my own Base class Dragonrider. I haven't touched it in years, but I can rip some stuff out and see if you like some of the idea I had kicking around. EDIT: Wow it's amazing seeing how much this stuff seems different than what I would write right now. I guess 5 years of increasing system mastery and not touching something does that.

QuadraticGish
2021-08-14, 06:03 PM
Not much to pull out due to it being heavily ingrained with PoW, but I pulled the best of what I could. Maybe you'd like to have these around.

Using left over scales of their partner, a special set of armor is forged. This type of armor is chosen when you select this talent. The armor type can be chosen after one week of adjustments and collecting new scales. The chosen armor gains an enhancement bonus equal to your levels in Dragonrider with the usual +5 limit. These enhancement bonuses can be exchanged for weapon armor special abilities whenever you would gain a new level or with one week of adjustment. The armor can have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. In addition, wearing the armor grants electricity resistance equal to 2 times your Dragonrider level and a bonus to will saves equal to your Dragonrider level against a Bronze dragon's Repulsion Breath. If the armor is worn by someone else, reduce the armor bonus and dex bonus by two(to a minimum of one) and increase the ACP by 2. They also receive none of the extra benefits due to them lacking the connection to the Dragonrider's partner.

On reaching 10th level the PrC, the Dragonscale armor's enhancement bonus now uses the greater of their Dragonrider class level, or 5 + 1/3rd their character level. In addition, their armor grants immunity to electricity.


(Light Armor)Dragonscale Robe: Armor bonus: +1, Maximum Dex Bonus -; Armor check Penalty: 0; Arcane Spell Failure chance 0%; Speed: full; weight 3 lbs; Special: The Dragonscale Robes can have their enhancement bonus go up to +8 as if they were bracers of armor.

(Light Armor)Dragonscale Scale: Armor bonus: +4, Maximum Dex Bonus -; Armor check Penalty: 0; Arcane Spell Failure chance 10%; Speed: full; weight 10 lbs

(Medium Armor)Dragonscale Mail: Armor bonus: +6, Maximum Dex Bonus +8; Armor check Penalty: -2; Arcane Spell Failure chance 15%; Speed: full; weight 20 lbs

(Heavy Armor)Dragonscale Plate: Armor bonus: +9, Maximum Dex Bonus +6; Armor check Penalty: 0; Arcane Spell Failure chance 20%; Speed: 2/3rds; weight 30 lbs

Authors note: This feature kind of sucked before rewrote it here. I had to make the base stats fairly high to make them competitive to their magic item versions as the cost of a choice is higher than money can buy. The robe competes with the Bracers of Armor, the Scale and Mail compete against Celestial Armor, while the Plate competes with Celestial Plate.



As a standard action, the dragonrider's partner may use their breath weapon to enhance the power of their rider's weapons. This may affect up to two weapons, or a weapon and a shield. If using unarmed strikes or natural weapons, this affects all of them. Each ability is only usable as an attack action or alongside vital strike and the effect only activates once per round. When a melee weapon is affected, thee rider's reach with it becomes equal to the range on the breath weapon used. If a ranged weapon is used, then the ranged weapon has it's range increments extended by half the length of the dragon's breath weapon. This ability only lasts for a number of successful hits equal to the Rider's cha mod or 1 minutes. Which ever is shorter. Activating this is treated as if the dragon had used their respective breath weapon unmodified this round.

Electricity: The rider's weapon deals additional damage equal to half the damage dice of the dragon's breath weapon and counts the target's electricity resistance as 10 points lower(to a minimum of 0). This is damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by vital strike.

Repulsion Breath: The first successful attack each round affects the target as if they were hit with the dragon's Repulsion breath, except the save DC is increased by the rider's charisma modifier.

Author's note: This was one of my favorite features I had on the class' talent list. Thorough originally it was a special version of the Elemental Flux stance.



Quite a few changes had to be made because this was originally gonna be an initiator class the 3PP Dragoon was a spheres class. Was also gonna include it's own Discipline; I think the name for it I had at the time was Chained Duet?

Dusk Raven
2021-08-14, 09:46 PM
What's the spellcasting ability for the spells? I assume Charisma? Related, how many spells known does the Dragonrider have?

Palanan
2021-08-15, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by QuadraticGish
Maybe you'd like to have these around.

Thanks for these suggestions. I really like Breath Blade, it’s perfect for the concept.

And it fits thematically with Prime32’s suggestion about channeling spells through a breath weapon, so even better for that.


Originally Posted by Dusk Raven
What's the spellcasting ability for the spells? I assume Charisma? Related, how many spells known does the Dragonrider have?

Spellcasting as bard, so Charisma and follows the progression of bard spells known.

QuadraticGish
2021-08-29, 12:04 PM
As promised, here's the bumping post and my feed back on the update.

I think it's an overall good improvement, especially with the change to the bard spell list. With Arcane Fluidity, I can definitely see full-casters sticking long enough for a two-level dip for sure. If you really want to pull them in for the possibility of a third level dip, you could at first level include an upgrade to share spell that removes the limitation the on it the class imposes. Though classes like Sorcerer will probably avoid it like the plague in order to preserve access to 9ths.

Palanan
2021-08-31, 03:44 PM
I’ve added one more modest feature at first level, and would appreciate any feedback on V2 of the dragonrider.

Thanks to those who left detailed comments on the first iteration, and especially to Prime32 and QuadraticGish for suggesting new and flavorful class features.