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Cruiser1
2007-11-15, 07:55 AM
Picture a duel scenario: The arena is a simple hemisphere 500 feet in diameter and 250 feet high. The ground is flat, and there's no way to exit the hemisphere (not even teleportation) although one can still go etheric within the bounds of the hemisphere. A Wizard and some other class are in a duel to the death. They both have standard WBL guidelines in gear that they've chosen. They start 30 feet apart in the middle, aware of each other. They are given time to self-buff before the duel begins, where they know exactly the round when they'll roll initiative. They also know ahead of time the class they're facing and the duel conditions and environment.

This seems like an easy win for the Wizard, right? Pull out all your Batman tricks and totally own them! However, there's a catch: The Wizard is very unlucky, while his opponent is very lucky. Every dice roll the Wizard makes comes up a 1 or the most negative result. Every dice roll the non-Wizard makes is a 20 or whatever the high number or most positive result is. :smallfrown: Can the Wizard still win?

To begin, the Wizard is much more vulnerable. Even a Monk can guarantee victory against most Wizards, if the Monk gets next to the Wizard even once. The Monk is guaranteed to hit, and critical for that matter (rolled natural 20), and the Wizard is guaranteed to fail the Quivering Palm Fortitude save (rolled natural 1). To counter this, the Wizard needs to not get hit, which means winning initiative (which is hard when you always roll a 1 and they a 20), or having a Contingency set up to Dimension Door himself away when the Monk attacks, or use Celerity. Interestingly, the Wizard shouldn't worry about common gear like Cloaks of Resistance, because he's going to fail his save regardless. Instead the Wizard wants an ability to make a natural 1 not a failure, or get an item like Headband of Conscious Effort from MIC that lets you replace a Fort save with a Concentration check (skills aren't auto-failures on a 1).

Certain strategies or spells Wizards usually employ suddenly become useless. The much touted save or suck spells don't work because the opponent will always save. Rays and the Orb spells are worthless because they'll always miss. Even if you do a Quickened True Strike beforehand, that still won't override the fact that your natural 1 is a miss. Summoning monsters doesn't work well (unless they have magic they can use) since your minions will always fumble their attack rolls just like you. :smallfurious:

Area of effect direct damage spells work reasonably well, as long as they don't involve dice. A Fireball will do only 5 damage (rolled 10d6, ending up 10 1's, and the opponent is guaranteed to make their Reflex save for half). A Maximized Fireball is much better, since it always does 60, or 30 after they save.

Basically you have to use spells that don't require an attack roll (such as area effect) that are no save or still have partial effect even if they do save. Solid Fog still works, as a no save area of effect. Cloudkill still works (although you have to Maximize it, because otherwise the half of 1d4 = 1 CON damage they take will be 0).

This exercise considers whether a Wizard can guarantee a win in whatever circumstance. I find it useful when planning a Wizard (or other class) build, to see if they still perform even when the dice are at their worst. If they're still effective, then I know they'll do well in an actual session, no matter how the dice fall. The best players make their own luck! :smallwink:

What spells, feats, items, or other build options would your unlucky Wizard take? How many of the core classes can the unlucky Wizard beat in the duel arena above? Bonus points if it's done core only!

Kurald Galain
2007-11-15, 10:10 AM
It would seem the wizard still has a number of defensive options that work fine. Such as dimdooring, invis, wall of force, etc.

For offense, I'd suggest using power words (no save, no attack roll).

If you can get your opponent under 100 hp, PW Kill will end the match for you.

Indon
2007-11-15, 10:18 AM
Physically trap your opponent using Abjuration (Well, or Conjuration-Creation) spells, Create highly flammable matter (like dead leaves soaked in oil or something) in the enclosure, then Fireball it. Fireball ignites flammable matter, which would then deal 1 damage per round until you can Power Word: Kill the target.

Edit: Prismatic Wall also deals static damage that can only be saved for half.

Ryuuk
2007-11-15, 10:21 AM
I'm pretty sure a Celerity followed by a Maximized (via Rod) Timestop wins this. Summon enough allies to deal with the enemy or simply use no save spells if summons are also unlucky.

Keld Denar
2007-11-15, 10:51 AM
Cloudkill still works (although you have to Maximize it, because otherwise the half of 1d4 = 1 CON damage they take will be 0).


Correction, you do NOT have to maximize it. All spells deal a minimum of 1 point of damage (hp, ability, or otherwise) unless the subject has resistance or immunity to the spell. Cloudkill ALWAYS does at least 1 point of CON damage per round, unless the subject is either immune to gas attacks (adaption or other non-breathing feature), immune to poison (monk, undead, etc), or immune to ability damage (undead, elemental, etc).

A better bet through, would be within the confines of a Timestop, Energy Admix Acid/Sonic Fog (no save), Forcecage (no save), Dim Lock (no save???) or Forbidance (no save, works because of the arena restriction). If that doesn't outright kill the target, it might be enough to bring them down low enough for a PW:K (no save). Overcoming SR might be a bit of a challenge, I don't remember if Acid Fog and Dim Lock/Forbidance allow SR or not, but you can get around that with some feat/item I can't remember from Complete Mage that lets you take 10 on CL checks. That would crack SR 30 most days, higher with a couple items/feats (+5 from OIS and Greater Pen off the top of my head). A Monk20 only has SR 30, and I don't think Contemplatives get much higher than that as well.

Could someone tell me if Dim Lock or Forbidance allow saves? Because that would shoot my strat in the foot. Another option would be AMF, but I couldn't say off the top of my head if an Acid Cloud(a conjouration) could exist in an AMF or if it would wink out.

On further though, Forbidance wouldn't prevent Planeshifting out, only Planeshifting in, so a Cleric could just go Astral or Ethereal for the duration, then shift back in at a later time. Unless the wizard continuously casts Forbidance, and then does he win by default since the Cleric is gone and can't get back (effectively pinned on another plane?)

Sorry for the stream-of-consiousness post.....

brian c
2007-11-15, 11:26 AM
Area of effect direct damage spells work reasonably well, as long as they don't involve dice. A Fireball will do only 5 damage (rolled 10d6, ending up 10 1's, and the opponent is guaranteed to make their Reflex save for half). A Maximized Fireball is much better, since it always does 60, or 30 after they save.

Basically you have to use spells that don't require an attack roll (such as area effect) that are no save or still have partial effect even if they do save. Solid Fog still works, as a no save area of effect. Cloudkill still works (although you have to Maximize it, because otherwise the half of 1d4 = 1 CON damage they take will be 0).

Keep in mind that you set this up against a Monk; Monks have imrpoved evasion, which means that with an auto-20 they never take any damage from Fireball. Also, monks are immune to poison, so don't bother with Cloudkill. You could maximize a debuff spell, such as Enervation, or use Evard's Black Tentacles (though again, does this unluckiness extend to summons and tentacles?). Also, Monks don't get Mettle, so use spells that target Will and Fortitude saves, and which still have partial effect when the save is made.

Nermy
2007-11-15, 11:47 AM
Take arcane mastery to beat the monk's spell resistance.

Cast overland flight and greater invisibility at the beginning of battle.

If monk wins initiative and can see you for some reason, cast Lesser Celerity to fly up into the air.

Fly around shooting maximized or maximized / twinned or maximized / quickened magic missiles and teleporting if the monk gets too far.

sikyon
2007-11-15, 11:51 AM
Keep in mind that you set this up against a Monk; Monks have imrpoved evasion, which means that with an auto-20 they never take any damage from Fireball.

I think the idea is to trap them, douse them in oil and have them burn to death, only using hte fireball as a lighter.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-15, 11:56 AM
Physically trap your opponent using Abjuration (Well, or Conjuration-Creation) spells, Create highly flammable matter (like dead leaves soaked in oil or something) in the enclosure, then Fireball it. Fireball ignites flammable matter, which would then deal 1 damage per round until you can Power Word: Kill the target.

Edit: Prismatic Wall also deals static damage that can only be saved for half.

Fire resistance 5.

Setra
2007-11-15, 11:57 AM
Just Fly and used a bunch of Quickened Magic Missiles/Magic Missiles til his health is under 100.

Edit: Are we presuming he rolled max HP for every single level?

Indon
2007-11-15, 12:09 PM
Fire resistance 5.

Then introduce any other source of persistent damage; you can't use the Cloudkill strategy on a Monk, either, but he's still gon' die.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-15, 12:10 PM
Then introduce any other source of persistent damage; you can't use the Cloudkill strategy on a Monk, either, but he's still gon' die.

Energy resistance 5 for all of em. Not that expensive.

Indon
2007-11-15, 12:12 PM
Energy resistance 5 for all of em. Not that expensive.

Still not going to save you from being put inside a Prismatic wall or sphere, for instance.

I wonder if there's a way to use no-save spells to inundate someone in lava... that's 20 damage a round right there.

Keld Denar
2007-11-15, 12:17 PM
You could do some fun things if you write an Arcane Thesis on Magic Missile, especially if you are an Incantrix. A Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Quickened, Repeating, Snowcasting, Flashfrost, Lord of Uttercold, Energy Substituted Energy Admixtured Sonic Sanctum Magic Missile would be somewhere in the 6-7 level range. Couple of those should bring just about anyone down to the 100 point range for a PW:K.

Yeah, smack em around with a level 1 spell. That'll make em feel wonderful.

Indon
2007-11-15, 12:26 PM
Isn't Magic Missile SR: Yes? If your target has any SR at all, such as from a mantle, it would fail.

Nermy
2007-11-15, 12:27 PM
Isn't Magic Missile SR: Yes? If your target has any SR at all, such as from a mantle, it would fail.

Monks have natural spell resistance of 30 at level 20 so:


Take arcane mastery to beat the monk's spell resistance.

Dausuul
2007-11-15, 01:10 PM
Isn't Magic Missile SR: Yes? If your target has any SR at all, such as from a mantle, it would fail.

SR checks are not subject to the "1 always fails, 20 always succeeds" rule.

GoC
2007-11-15, 01:22 PM
I know!
Buff your familiar and give him all your spells!
As it's the familiar attacking and not you the "bad luck" rule doesn't apply!:smallsmile:

Kaelik
2007-11-15, 01:49 PM
Magic Missle, Arcane Mastery (for SR), and Fell Magic. Spam Negative Levels.

Cruiser1
2007-11-15, 01:59 PM
I know!
Buff your familiar and give him all your spells!
As it's the familiar attacking and not you the "bad luck" rule doesn't apply!:smallsmile:
In the OP I said that "your minions will always fumble their attack rolls just like you" which means that the bad luck rule also applies to your familiar and anything you summon, charm, or whatever. Basically just pretend all rolls in any context go against you (including your opponent having max hp/level, and you having min hp/level).

Chronos
2007-11-15, 03:02 PM
One other twist to this scenario: Everyone's a skill monkey. If a low-dex fighter in full plate rolls a natural 20 on his untrained Hide and Move Silently rolls (assuming he can get some form of cover or concealment up in the buff rounds, which is just a Tree Feather Token away), he's going to beat the wizard's natural 1s on Spot and Listen. By the same token, invisibility doesn't help the wizard: The spot DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature is only 20, and once you have that (which you will, unless you have a Wis penalty), you can attempt attacks (which will luckily get past the miss chance).

And anyone at all, if they win initiative (which they will, barring Celerity) can ready an action to shoot an arrow at the wizard if he tries to cast a spell. The arrow will do 24 damage, plus triple strength and enhancement bonus, which means the wizard needs to get at least a +10 and probably more to his Concentration check, above what he can get from skill ranks.

Cruiser1
2007-11-15, 04:20 PM
(assuming he can get some form of cover or concealment up in the buff rounds, which is just a Tree Feather Token away)
I'd say throwing down a Tree Feather Token (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree) doesn't count as valid self-buffing (although you can certainly play one in the first round of combat). Similarly, the Wizard shouldn't be able to throw down Walls of Ice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm) before initiative is rolled, hide within a Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm), or summon monsters. Basically pretend that the pre-buffing takes place in some other dimension, where at the end of that period both contestants are teleported into the arena.


And anyone at all, if they win initiative (which they will, barring Celerity) can ready an action to shoot an arrow at the wizard if he tries to cast a spell. The arrow will do 24 damage, plus triple strength and enhancement bonus, which means the wizard needs to get at least a +10 and probably more to his Concentration check, above what he can get from skill ranks.
Protection from Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm) is a valid self-buff, but that won't do any good if the Fighter has a +1 bow. Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) is valid too, but that doesn't help since the Fighter will always luckily roll properly to shoot the right image. Stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm) would be a useful buff, to reduce the damage to a manageable level and to stay alive in general. A Third Eye Concentrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#concentrate) sounds like a good item for the Wizard to have to help make Concentration checks.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-15, 05:09 PM
Don't forget Protection From Arrows's big brother, Wind Wall.

deadseashoals
2007-11-15, 08:03 PM
Correction, you do NOT have to maximize it. All spells deal a minimum of 1 point of damage (hp, ability, or otherwise) unless the subject has resistance or immunity to the spell. Cloudkill ALWAYS does at least 1 point of CON damage per round, unless the subject is either immune to gas attacks (adaption or other non-breathing feature), immune to poison (monk, undead, etc), or immune to ability damage (undead, elemental, etc).

Where did you get that idea? Attacks always do a minimum of 1 point of damage, but spells (particularly spells that allow a save for half) have no such restriction.

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-15, 08:19 PM
Or, you could do a cleric with hold person + coup de grace. who said it had to be a monk?

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 04:15 AM
So the real lesson we've learned here is that the only way to make wizards balanced against other classes (maybe) is to make all of their rolls natural 1s and the rolls of all enemies attacking them or that they're attacking natural 20s?

Is there anyone else who's seeing something horribly, terribly wrong with this?

I don't just mean "wizards need to be fixed" wrong. I mean "the 'wizard' section of the PHB needs to be ripped out, burned, have an exorcism performed on the ashes, with said ashes then being scattered to the winds" wrong?

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-16, 04:24 AM
Still not going to save you from being put inside a Prismatic wall or sphere, for instance.

Actually, a monk that rolls all nat 20s can walk through a Prismatic effect with only 1 pt. of Con dmg.

Indon
2007-11-16, 11:11 AM
Actually, a monk that rolls all nat 20s can walk through a Prismatic effect with only 1 pt. of Con dmg.

I thought the damage effects were save vs. half?

Aquillion
2007-11-16, 11:14 AM
Here's what the wizard does against non-flying opponents that have to breathe and are incapable of dimensional travel.

In the setup phase, cast Foresight and Fly on yourself. As soon as the fight begins, use Greater Celerity to go first (yes, we're being cheap. The wizard can win, but not by playing fair.)

Maximized Time Stop with a rod of maximize. Miss a turn to pay for the Celerity. Reverse Gravity. According to a literal wording of the rules, none of our spells can affect the enemy until the Time Stop ends, so it ends now and they fly up.

Immediately, Greater Celerity and Maximized Time Stop again. Dismiss your own Reverse Gravity. Again, they don't fall until time resumes, so place a Portable Hole beneath them. Ready an action to pick it up when they fall in. Keep it ready as your Time Stop ends and they fall.

No dice were rolled, but they are now trapped inside the hole, with only 10 minutes of air. Even though their rolls are maximized, the rolls to survive are still a DC 10 constitution check, with the DC going up by 1 every round, and those don't auto-succeed on a 20; so after 20 rounds, they will start to suffocate, will and be dead within roughly 13 minutes.


I thought the damage effects were save vs. half?Skjaldbakka is probably thinking of the monk's Evasion ability. However, if you read it very carefully, Evasion only works against attacks. Whether it works against something like walking through a prismatic wall is debatable:
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save,

Keld Denar
2007-11-16, 11:22 AM
I thought the damage effects were save vs. half?

Yes, they are....reflex saves for half. Enter Evasion. Reflex save for 0. Thats for the first colors. Save vs poison gets the 1 con damage, save vs insanity, planeshift, and petrification are all autosuceeded w/ no partial effect.

Prismatic Wall isn't all that scary....If you automake all your saves ;)


To the above poster....Reverse Gravity has a save to grab the ground or something afixed to the ground to prevent being tossed up in the air. Read the spell discription, it should be there.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 01:40 PM
Yes, they are....reflex saves for half. Enter Evasion. Reflex save for 0. Thats for the first colors. Save vs poison gets the 1 con damage, save vs insanity, planeshift, and petrification are all autosuceeded w/ no partial effect.

First, Evasion only works on attacks, it's debatable whether walking through a wall of your own choice counts as an attack.

Secondly, reread the entry on save versus poison. Monks are immune to Poison. They take no Con damage.

Keld Denar
2007-11-16, 01:53 PM
First, Evasion only works on attacks, it's debatable whether walking through a wall of your own choice counts as an attack.

Secondly, reread the entry on save versus poison. Monks are immune to Poison. They take no Con damage.

Doh, should have realized that. So the monk can walk through unphased.

As to whether or not evasion works on the wall. Environmental effects such as rock collapses allow a save for 1/2. Every monk I've ever seen, played, or DMed has always gotten out of such with evasion.

Look at it this way. If a wizard brought a prismatic wall into being throught the monks space (say the monk was enlarged). That would be an attack, right? From an effect point of view, how is it any different that volunteerily passing through it? Either way, monk is affected. If anything, a monk willingly running through a wall could do a Jackie Chan through it, minimalizing surface contact with the wall. He'd have an easier time evading it because he knew what to expect. Or maybe he just slips into Roguespace(TM), avoiding the whole deal altogether. I can't explain how evasion works, but the rules say it does. So a monk can evade a prismatic wall, just the same as a wall of fire, or a fireball, or some rocks falling from the ceiling. It all starts as reflex for 1/2, so it all becomes reflex for 0.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 02:13 PM
So a monk can evade a prismatic wall, just the same as a wall of fire, or a fireball, or some rocks falling from the ceiling. It all starts as reflex for 1/2, so it all becomes reflex for 0.

The problem is Evasion doesn't say Reflex for 1/2=0. It says attack Reflex for 1/2=0.

The reason running through a wall is more likely is because we are talking about evading damage. If I summon a wall in the same square as the Monk, he gets a Reflex save to jump to one side or the other. His impeccable reflexes allow him to do so with no damage. He never comes in contact with the wall.

If I summon a Wall in front of him though, and he runs straight through it, there is a 100% chance that he runs through fire. As such, it makes sense that he takes half damage even if he passes the reflex save to minimize contact. Luckily, common sense agrees with the rules, because Evasion only protects against attacks.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 04:54 PM
A monk does still get Spell Resistance, though, which is effective versus every layer of the wall. The wizard's going to have to get his caster level pretty high to overcome the monk's luck.

And even if the wizard does get his caster level up that high, the monk can almost certainly survive taking 70 points of damage.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 05:02 PM
A monk does still get Spell Resistance, though, which is effective versus every layer of the wall. The wizard's going to have to get his caster level pretty high to overcome the monk's luck.

And even if the wizard does get his caster level up that high, the monk can almost certainly survive taking 70 points of damage.

Spell Resistance isn't the Monks luck, it's the Wizards bad luck, since he's the one that roles. And we already discussed that Arcane whatever, that lets you take ten on all Caster level checks is a must in this situation. All you need to beat the Monks Spell Resistance every single time is a single Archmage +Caster level, or an Ioun Stone. Or any other caster level increase. Once again, inevitable under these circumstances. (Or would a caster level check of 30 beat a Spell Resist of 30? Then you don't even need a caster level increase.)

Idea Man
2007-11-16, 05:31 PM
The reverse gravity trick could work, just disintegrate the ground beneath the monk prior to casting RG.

Let's see: all attack rolls fail, all save-or-die spells fail, all area-damage spells fail, all poisons fail, all attempts to beat spell resistance fail anyway (realistically)... that leaves area effect spells that are not poison and have no spell resistance. I am not looking through every supplement I own to find that spell, if it exists. On the other hand, it would have to be a conjuration spell of some kind.

Otherwise, the wizard is relying on a magic item to do his dirty work for him. I think the monk could have an item or two that would thwart the RG strategy, like flying boots or just a ring of feather falling and some rope.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 05:35 PM
all attempts to beat spell resistance fail anyway (realistically)...

Unless you bother to actually look at a Wizards options, in which case you can see that he can take ten (IE not role) and so beat Spell Resistance every time. He could thus Magic Missle the Monk to death. (Much faster if he applies Fell Metamagic so that each time he gives a negative level.)

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 05:55 PM
I can think of at LEAST six near-infallible ways to beat any non-arcane spellcaster without needing to make any rolls with Mr wizard. Here are two of them:



1) Celerity.
2) Maxed Timestop-5 rounds of free time.

From now on there are two example methods:

Method A requiring absolutely no rolls plus the clever use of some spells and the spell penetration and Arcane Mastery feats to make sure the Dim. Lock bypasses spell resistance.
3a) Dimension Lock centered on your enemy.
4a) Wall of Stone, ring-shaped, around your enemy.
5a) True Creation (or similar spell) : fill the ring with mud.
6a) Transmute mud to rock.
7a) PaO: transmute the mud to iron.
8a) Time resumes, your enemy is imprisoned in a 5 ft thick lump of iron with ~2000 hp, hardness 20 and a break DC of 65+. They can't move (not even open their mouths), breathe, reach for components or holy symbols and they don't have line of effect or line of sight for anywhere. They can't use ANY method of bodily extradimensional travel. They die of suffocation within a few minutes.

Method B using a simpler sequence of spells and a more immediate result-but is chancy if enemy has immunity to many energy types. Requires Spell Penetration, Twin Spell, Archmage levels and Arcane Mastery.
3b) Twinned Wall of fire
4b) Twinned Wall of fire
5b) Twinned Wall of fire
6b) Twinned Wall of fire
7b) Focecage.
8b) Time Resumes, your enemy automatically takes 88 points of damage of an element of your choice (mastery of elements). They can't escape even with spells because they are taking continous damage and the concentration DC to cast is 54. A spellcaster with a constitution of 26 (including buffs) has 23 ranks, +8 ability, +20 roll. That's a total of 41. So, they are burned away in a couple of rounds. Feats like Arcane Thesis: Wall of Fire, Felldrain Spell, Empower Spell and Searing Flame can double the damage, ignore immunities and deal 8 negative levels with no save.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 07:19 PM
2) Maxed Timestop-5 rounds of free time.Nitpick: Four rounds of free time. You spend one round recovering from the Celerity.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 07:20 PM
Nope. The celerity daze comes after my extra action-thus after the timestop. That's why timestop doesn't "absorb" the celerity daze.

Aquillion
2007-11-16, 11:49 PM
It occurs to me that you don't even need Celerity. Under the rules of the duel as it is set up, the wizard can spend the round immediately before the fight starts readying an action to cast Time Stop as soon as the Monk starts to take their turn. This ensures that the Wizard will (in effect) win initiative without even using any non-core spells.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 12:32 AM
It occurs to me that you don't even need Celerity. Under the rules of the duel as it is set up, the wizard can spend the round immediately before the fight starts readying an action to cast Time Stop as soon as the Monk starts to take their turn. This ensures that the Wizard will (in effect) win initiative without even using any non-core spells.

You can't ready an action until you get a turn, which doesn't happen until you come up in the initiative order.

If you could, everyone would just ready actions all of the time, all day long. And if it did work the way you're suggesting (it doesn't), what would stop the wizard's opponent from readying an action before the fight started, too?

tyckspoon
2007-11-17, 12:42 AM
You can't ready an action until you get a turn, which doesn't happen until you come up in the initiative order.

If you could, everyone would just ready actions all of the time, all day long. And if it did work the way you're suggesting (it doesn't), what would stop the wizard's opponent from readying an action before the fight started, too?

Under that logic, the opponent would indeed have the option to ready an action. What would you suggest the opponent's action be? The wizard can choose 'I prepare to cast Time Stop as soon as we roll initiative'. What would you have a challenger do to counteract this? Ready to dispel seems like an obvious choice, should the challenger have that ability.

There is a good reason not to walk around with a readied action all day, tho- it's a standard action to ready. You're stuck with move and move-equivalent actions for everything you want to do in the rest of the day.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 12:51 AM
Under that logic, the opponent would indeed have the option to ready an action. What would you suggest the opponent's action be? The wizard can choose 'I prepare to cast Time Stop as soon as we roll initiative'. What would you have a challenger do to counteract this? Ready to dispel seems like an obvious choice, should the challenger have that ability.

There is a good reason not to walk around with a readied action all day, tho- it's a standard action to ready. You're stuck with move and move-equivalent actions for everything you want to do in the rest of the day.

That and the fact that, you know, you simply can't do it at all until after initiative is rolled and your turn comes up.

Cruiser1
2007-11-17, 07:49 AM
Method A
4a) Wall of Stone, ring-shaped, around your enemy.
Note Wall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) can only be cast if attached to existing stone. There's nothing that says the arena floor is stone (I always assumed it was metal or some mysterious substance). Fortunately, there are other ways to do what you want, such as cast Wall of Ice three or four times to create an enclosure, or since you're already using Polymorph Any Object, just drop a trail ration on the ground as a free action, and cast that spell again to turn your food into a stone wall. :smalltongue:

Method B.
They can't escape even with spells because they are taking continous damage
You don't need to make a Concentration check when casting a spell as a swift or immediate action, because swift actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions) specifically don't provoke attacks of opportunity. The Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) skill says, "in general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted". Hence a Quickened Dimension Door should be able to cast even when you're taking damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#injury), since there's basically zero damage happening while you're casting the spell. Also, if your opponent has a Contingency Dimension Door set up, that can get them out of the hot spot.

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-17, 11:43 AM
3a) Dimension Lock centered on your enemy.
4a) Wall of Stone, ring-shaped, around your enemy.
5a) True Creation (or similar spell) : fill the ring with mud.
6a) Transmute mud to rock.
7a) PaO: transmute the mud to iron.
8a) Time resumes, your enemy is imprisoned in a 5 ft thick lump of iron with ~2000 hp, hardness 20 and a break DC of 65+. They can't move (not even open their mouths), breathe, reach for components or holy symbols and they don't have line of effect or line of sight for anywhere. They can't use ANY method of bodily extradimensional travel. They die of suffocation within a few minutes.

Transmute Mud to Rock allows a reflex save, right?

tyckspoon
2007-11-17, 12:38 PM
Yes, it does, although 'reflexively' digging your way from the bottom of a massive pit of mud probably wasn't the situation the developers had in mind when they wrote that.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 12:59 PM
So the real lesson we've learned here is that the only way to make wizards balanced against other classes (maybe) is to make all of their rolls natural 1s and the rolls of all enemies attacking them or that they're attacking natural 20s?

Is there anyone else who's seeing something horribly, terribly wrong with this?

I don't just mean "wizards need to be fixed" wrong. I mean "the 'wizard' section of the PHB needs to be ripped out, burned, have an exorcism performed on the ashes, with said ashes then being scattered to the winds" wrong? This is what happens when an RPG is published by a company called Wizards of the Coast.:smallwink:

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-17, 01:36 PM
Yes, it does, although 'reflexively' digging your way from the bottom of a massive pit of mud probably wasn't the situation the developers had in mind when they wrote that.

True. Otherwise, though, it can decimate almost anything with impunity.

Cruiser1
2007-11-17, 05:29 PM
So the real lesson we've learned here is that the only way to make wizards balanced against other classes (maybe) is to make all of their rolls natural 1s and the rolls of all enemies attacking them or that they're attacking natural 20s?
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that this exercise shows that no class is a guaranteed win, where the dice can always go against you. (Although certainly some classes have a higher probability of doing better in some situations, such as 1 on 1 duels.) Most of the successful Wizard builds here have involved Time Stop, which requires the Wizard to be level 17+. What if the Wizard is say level 13, i.e. only has access to level 7 spells. Can they still beat other classes when the dice are against them?

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-18, 05:29 AM
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that this exercise shows that no class is a guaranteed win, where the dice can always go against you. (Although certainly some classes have a higher probability of doing better in some situations, such as 1 on 1 duels.) Most of the successful Wizard builds here have involved Time Stop, which requires the Wizard to be level 17+. What if the Wizard is say level 13, i.e. only has access to level 7 spells. Can they still beat other classes when the dice are against them?

How many times have you played in a battle, where you only rolled natural 1s and your opponent rolled natural 20s. That's a bit more than dice going against you and for them.