Is Identify useless?

[Dominion]

I'll burst right out the gates: A GM in one of my playgroups says we can identify all properties a magic item has with a successful spellcraft check.

Is that RAW?

If it is, doesn't that make identify useless?

Is there anything identify can do that a successful spellcraft check can't?

[Boci]

Its a rule in pathfinder, so your DM may have borrowed it from there (assuming this is 3.5). As for identify, it does make it less useful, pathfinder removed the pearl requirement in light of that, but it does still give a bonus/remove the need for a check, so its not entirely useless, but less useful. Which might be good, not knowing what your loot did wasn't a positive feature for many players.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Identify will still tell you how many charges an item has, and it doesn't look like your DM's houserule will do that.

So not useless, no, but far less useful.

[Tzardok]

By RAW, Spellcraft can:

identify spells as they are cast
analyze a magical aura to see what school it has
identify a spell whose effect you examine
analyze Symbols and other spells that are "written" when cast
read magic scrolls
identify potions
identify objects that were created by magic
transfer new spells into your spell book
use another wizard's spellbook


As you see, only two types of magic items can be identifyed by Spellcraft: scrolls and potions.

Identify, on the other hand, tells you all effects of any magical item and how to use it, unless it is an artifact or its effects are hidden (for example, because it is cursed and masquerades as benign).

[Troacctid]

Its a rule in pathfinder, so your DM may have borrowed it from there (assuming this is 3.5).
It is a rule in 3.5 as well. The DC is quite high though, often in the high 30s or low 40s. Not something you can reliably do at low levels. And if you fail the check, you can't retry until you've gained a rank in Spellcraft.

[Telonius]

Identify does give a 1% chance per caster level to reveal a cursed item. (Analyze Dweomer will give you the full rundown).

Identify is one of those spells that fits some people's playstyles, but not others. If you don't houserule it away (or at least remove the expensive component), it requires your players to spend a 100gp pearl for every magic item they loot from their enemies. For lower levels, that can be cost-prohibitive. For higher levels, the cost is trivial individually, but starts to add up when your enemies are lighting up like a Christmas tree when you Detect Magic. And even though it's a low-level spell, you could fill up day or two's worth of first-level spell slots just casting Identify after a major battle. Either way it's a hassle. Some groups appreciate the hassle for verisimilitude, others don't.


It is a rule in 3.5 as well. The DC is quite high though, often in the high 30s or low 40s. Not something you can reliably do at low levels. And if you fail the check, you can't retry until you've gained a rank in Spellcraft.

Higher than that, unfortunately. It's in the Epic Skills (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft):


50 + caster level Identify basic property of magic item


Identify Basic Property of Magic Item
This use of the skill requires one round of inspection, and functions exactly as if the character had cast an identify spell on the item. A character can’t attempt this on the same item more than once.

[Boci]

It is a rule in 3.5 as well. The DC is quite high though, often in the high 30s or low 40s. Not something you can reliably do at low levels. And if you fail the check, you can't retry until you've gained a rank in Spellcraft.

I vaguely recall that rule being in 3.5, but I can't find it anywhere. Detect magic only lets you know the aura, and spellcraft itself has "Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell.", which likely wouldn't extend to magical items.

[Crake]

Identify does give a 1% chance per caster level to reveal a cursed item. (Analyze Dweomer will give you the full rundown).

Identify is one of those spells that fits some people's playstyles, but not others. If you don't houserule it away (or at least remove the expensive component), it requires your players to spend a 100gp pearl for every magic item they loot from their enemies. For lower levels, that can be cost-prohibitive. For higher levels, the cost is trivial individually, but starts to add up when your enemies are lighting up like a Christmas tree when you Detect Magic. And even though it's a low-level spell, you could fill up day or two's worth of first-level spell slots just casting Identify after a major battle. Either way it's a hassle. Some groups appreciate the hassle for verisimilitude, others don't.

Once you start to get higher levels, it's worth investing in an artificer's monocle. 1500g item that lets you identify items with 1 minute of detect magic, so with one cast you can identify your CL worth of items, you start saving money after just 15 items.

[Maat Mons]

In Pathfinder, in order to use Spellcraft to identify a magic item, you still need to cast Detect Magic and spend 3 rounds concentrating. (Or you can cast Identify, and get the results in a single round with a +10 bonus. But it's really not worth it.)



In 3.5, you normally need to cast Identify, requiring 1 hour and 100 gp to identify an item. But realistically, you're going to buy an Artificer's Monocle (Magic Item Compendium, p72). It lets you identify an item in just 10 minutes by casting Detect Magic (or being an Artificer). It costs 1,500 go, yes, but after identifying just 15 items, it will have paid for itself by saving you from expending a 100-gp pearl on each one. Edit: Ninja-ed

Or, even more realistically, an NPC who owns an Artificers monocle will tell you what all your items are when you get to town. … Or the DM will just tell you what everything is as soon as you find it.



So, yeah, probably don't bother with Identify in either edition.

But for never, ever make a group without anyone who can cast Detect Magic. Not unless your DM run things like a video game. Otherwise, you'll ask "Do the corpses have anything valuable on them?" and he'll tell you "You have no idea."

Granted, lots of magic items look valuable even if you can't feel the energy emanating from them. But there are also quite a few that explicitly look like ordinary (even old and worn out) crap. And the NPC in the Magic Item Shop is going to start getting annoyed that you keep bringing him nonmagical rings and necklaces to examine "just to be sure."

[Zanos]

Per MIC, you can identify the properties of magic items by beating the spellcraft DC to determine the spell school by 10. The DC for that is 15+SL or 15+1/2CL, if it's not a spell effect. Since you can retry on this check, and the highest non-epic DC would be 35, any character with +15 spellcraft and detect magic can identify nearly any magic item by taking 20.

Unless your DM is handing you very powerful items at low levels, identifying them shouldn't be an issue.


Once you start to get higher levels, it's worth investing in an artificer's monocle. 1500g item that lets you identify items with 1 minute of detect magic, so with one cast you can identify your CL worth of items, you start saving money after just 15 items.
Depends on what you mean by high levels. At 11, you would be better off buying the focus for analyze dweomer, which costs the same amount and doesn't fail to identify cursed items.

[Dominion]

First of all thanks to everyone so far for the replies. It's been really helpful for me :)

I think he set the DC to identify items to sth like 15 and lets us retry daily so there's that.



Higher than that, unfortunately. It's in the Epic Skills (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft):

Does anyone know which book epic skills are in? I can't find the source for it. Thanks for the link!

[Boci]

Does anyone know which book epic skills are in? I can't find the source for it. Thanks for the link!

Epic Level Handbook. Its 3.0, and never got updated to 3.5 IIRC.

[Troacctid]

Higher than that, unfortunately. It's in the Epic Skills (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft):

I vaguely recall that rule being in 3.5, but I can't find it anywhere.
It's in MIC.

(Swordsaged by Zanos, I guess.)

[liquidformat]

So there are other ways to identify items beyond Artificer's Monocle, spell craft, and analyze dweomer. the Appraise Magic Value feat lets you use appraise and 25gp worth of materials, whereas the Magical Appraisal skill trick also allows you to use spell craft checks to identify items and the DCs are lower.

[Crake]

Depends on what you mean by high levels. At 11, you would be better off buying the focus for analyze dweomer, which costs the same amount and doesn't fail to identify cursed items.

I said higher levels :smalltongue: But in most of my games when I DM i allow the artificer's monocle to actually double as the analyze dweomer focus, since, as you noted, they cost the same, and are physically very similar, though I understand that's a house rule.

[Gnaeus]

As a footnote, the 100 GP pearl is specifically an arcane material component. So if you have some way to get it as a divine spell (such as by domain, or some other class copying the domain) it’s free.

[Thurbane]

As a footnote, the 100 GP pearl is specifically an arcane material component. So if you have some way to get it as a divine spell (such as by domain, or some other class copying the domain) it’s free.

It's on the Magic and Orcale domains. It also gets added to the Cloistered Cleric's spell list. Divine Bards can also cast it as a divine spell. There's probably others as well (Archivists, naturally).

I prefer the DFA least invocation, which not only removes the material component, but shortens it from an hour, to 1 full round. And unlimited times per day. I had an NPC DFA in my game who undercut the local wizards on identifying magic items, and got run out of town by the Mages Guild. :smallbiggrin:

Just as an aside, this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20051125a) also talks about identifying magic items, and presents it's own take un using Spellcraft.

[Twurps]

Is there anything identify can do that a successful spellcraft check can't?


My beef with any skills in the game would actually be the other way around. No matter how many ranks you put into a skill, there's always a caster in the party that has a spell that performs better.

[Fizban]

Identify is one of the many spells broken by a presumably well intentioned update. The 3.0 version took 8 hours to cast, but worked on one item per level. Thus it was terrible to cast at low levels when you can't make any of the skill/bard checks for "hints" (which were eventually turned into rules giving most of the information).

3.5 changed it to 1 hour presumably because no one liked the idea of waiting that long, but also dropped the number of targets to one. So now not only is it bad at low levels due to the cost, but the cost has also been effectively multiplied to 100gp per caster level, as well as a casting time of an hour per level, and also a "did you bother preparing this many copies" of one per level. Originally the spell was something you'd start using regularly around say 4th+, between adventures or adventuring days, depending on how immediately you wanted to know what you'd got in the haul (note scrolls and potions have other identifying methods). They broke the spell so bad someone had to write a new fiat item to fix it.

Not that the original wasn't a problem either of course- spells should be (and most are) written for use at the level they become available, not as stealth class features you pick up later. Not that it's a hard spell to fix, just make the actual casting time 1 hour per item, and the cost 10gp per item, which is fine at low levels and approaches the original 100 as you go.

[Thurbane]

I think someone at WotC realized the issues and frustration with Identify when they introduced the Draconic invocation I mentioned earlier (Magic Insight), and the Artificers Monocle (which I believe was from an Eberron book, but got updated/reprinted in MIC).

Both of these massively speed up the process (1 full round and 1 minute respectively), and do away with the 100gp component. The monocle is great if you combine it with Warlock or someone else that gets at will Detect Magic.

The thing I hate at low levels is that if you mess up the pretty high Spellcraft DC for a potion, you have to blow 100gp pearl to know what it is: and this is often more than what the damn potion is even worth.

[Teth]

The thing I hate at low levels is that if you mess up the pretty high Spellcraft DC for a potion, you have to blow 100gp pearl to know what it is: and this is often more than what the damn potion is even worth.

No retry just means "heck if I know" then you go ask some other wizards to take a look. It's not like they won't run into the same problem, you just have to swap skill checks. Or at least send them some good wine or whatever as thanks.

Dunno why you'd ever resort to identify on that unless detect magic came back with results that indicated it was likely to be worth the trouble.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, at lower levels when we mess up Spellcraft on a potion, step 1. take it to a higher level wizard for another skill check; and if that fails step 2. assume it's CLW.

[Fizban]

I don't know where the flat DC 25 Spellcraft to identify a potion came from- I was referring to the Alchemy check which costs 1gp per attempt and can be retried/take 20'd. But apparently this was also removed for 3.5 :smallsigh: The DC was 25 (and thus within guaranteed take 20 for 1st level characters, gee wonder if that was on purpose?), which is probably where the 25 for the spellcraft version came from. Except now you can't retry it.

Time to throw another on the pile of "things where the best fix is un-updating them." They broke the Identify spell, and identifying potions- are we really sure Analyze Dweomer even still works?

[Telonius]

No retry just means "heck if I know" then you go ask some other wizards to take a look. It's not like they won't run into the same problem, you just have to swap skill checks. Or at least send them some good wine or whatever as thanks.

Dunno why you'd ever resort to identify on that unless detect magic came back with results that indicated it was likely to be worth the trouble.


A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting.

Given the material component, including the wine might be customary. :smallbiggrin:

I think the "why" of it probably goes back to the earlier days of D&D, where including cursed items with standard loot was much more of a thing that it is now.

[Bohandas]

personally I would think that realistically many of these things would be labeled anyway

[Troacctid]

personally I would think that realistically many of these things would be labeled anyway
Always label your potions clearly. It's a workplace safety issue.
https://c.tenor.com/_RPwSabBavcAAAAM/llama-potion.gif

[Teth]

personally I would think that realistically many of these things would be labeled anyway

If it came out of a dungeon, there are even odds that a potion conspicuously labeled "cure light wounds" is actually kobold piss, either because it's a trap, or because some random kobold snuck a drink then decided it should top off the bottle to avoid being caught.

Better odds if you ransacked a potion lab or an alchemy shop, obviously.

Then again, maybe the alchemist poisons their goods and runs a wondrous item of purify food and drink over them when people pay them. (One can argue that "doesn't affect potions" means it still works fine on non-potion poisons mixed into the bottle.)

[Boci]

If it came out of a dungeon, there are even odds that a potion conspicuously labeled "cure light wounds" is actually kobold piss, either because it's a trap, or because some random kobold snuck a drink then decided it should top off the bottle to avoid being caught.

That the sort of thing was funny/clever once, and then really needs to be dropped by the DM. Also as a threat level, kobold piss (presumably) isn't magical, so a simple detect magic will automatically alert the party that its not a healing potion, or any potion.

[Teth]

That the sort of thing was funny/clever once, and then really needs to be dropped by the DM. Also as a threat level, kobold piss (presumably) isn't magical, so a simple detect magic will automatically alert the party that its not a healing potion, or any potion.

If he drank half of it then refilled the other half, it probably still shows up as magic.

Mostly just making fun of the trope here that it's somehow seen as normal to drink random crap in jars you salvaged / stole from a place filled with things trying to kill you. It's like going through someone's decades-old canning jars looking for something to drink when you already know they have a hobby of hiding rat poison in the pastries.

[Rynjin]

In Pathfinder, in order to use Spellcraft to identify a magic item, you still need to cast Detect Magic and spend 3 rounds concentrating. (Or you can cast Identify, and get the results in a single round with a +10 bonus. But it's really not worth it.)

The +10 is pretty worth it especially at low levels, since the DCs start off very high and can be nigh on impossible for certain items you can get at low levels, since the DC is based on caster level.

A Pearl of Power, for example, is caster level 17 regardless of level. So even a humble Pearl of Power I is going to be a DC 32 Spellcraft to identify; impossible to make for a 1st level character under most circumstances.

Identify is also the only way to identify magic items besides potions as an Alchemist or Investigator, who can't cast Detect Magic. At least until Arcane Sight comes online at 7th.

[Thurbane]

I once homebrewed a cantrip for my game, that gave a +20 insight to Spellcraft checks identify potions only.

[Maat Mons]

You make a good point.

I had been imagining the caster level of found magic items would typically be equal to or less than the group's level. That would have allowed anyone with an Int of 14+ and Spellcraft as a class skill to auto-succeed by taking 10.

But with some items having caster levels wildly out of keeping with the minimum levels at which the items can reasonably, things are very different. Additionally, I had somehow missed that Pathfinder removed to costly material component from Identify.

The removal of gp-expenditure, more than anything else, makes the Pathfinder version of Identify much better than I had given it credit for. The fact that it's 1 item per level, like the old 3.0 version, is just icing on the cake. (But also something I had failed to notice.)

So I'm going to completely reverse my stance here. The Pathfinder version of Identify is potentially a highly useful spell for a Wizard, Witch, or Arcanist (or a Cleric who happens to have the Magic domain).

I'm not really familiar with Alchemist or Investigator. But it looks like they can learn an unlimited number of these "extracts," in much the same way that Wizard can learn an unlimited number of spells? Then yes, it seems like Identify could be a good thing to pick up.

[Rynjin]

I'm not really familiar with Alchemist or Investigator. But it looks like they can learn an unlimited number of these "extracts," in much the same way that Wizard can learn an unlimited number of spells? Then yes, it seems like Identify could be a good thing to pick up.

Correct. They can even learn spells from a Wizard's spellbook (though not vice versa). Alchemy is a real odd duck. It walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, but for some reason Paizo has said it's not a duck...er, spellcasting. They don't get cantrips, and Alchemy doesn't qualify you for stuff like PrCs which require a specific caster level, and they can't craft magic items either (except Potions).

[Psyren]

Correct. They can even learn spells from a Wizard's spellbook (though not vice versa). Alchemy is a real odd duck. It walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, but for some reason Paizo has said it's not a duck...er, spellcasting. They don't get cantrips, and Alchemy doesn't qualify you for stuff like PrCs which require a specific caster level, and they can't craft magic items either (except Potions).

True, however they did create Spell Knowledge later to get Alchemists into such things

[YellowJohn]

When last I ran a game, I had some fun at low levels adding descriptions to the magic items. The Amulet of Natural Armour was a Tortoise-shell Amulet. The Ring of Protection was 'A Ring with a Shield motif. They found a cache of magic items in a Kobold lair, and they loved the notes the Kobold Sorcerers (none of whom could cast Identify) had made as they tried to puzzle out what everything did. Made for a fun little mini-game until they could afford an Artificer's Monacle.