Vow of Poverty Fix?

[liquidformat]

So reading through a lot of the threads on Vow of Poverty fixes and ignoring the stupid rules like not being able to use doors or roads and so on that can be fixed simply by cleaning up the text. The two big issues with VoP seem to be that first VoP doesn't do a great job of representing WBL and second it isn't flexible enough to work well for all classes. Milling this over I was wondering If I took the Soulborn Meldshaping and chakra binds progression with soulmeld alignment restrictions and opened up the bonus exalted feats to include incarnum feats as well how much would this addition help to fix the down falls of VoP. Also removing Sacred Vow as a prerequisite for all Vows since it is pretty worthless.

Is this enough to fix the down falls of VoP or does it fall short? If it falls short what else would you add or change to balance out VoP?

[pabelfly]

I'd also consider making Vow of Poverty free, rather than costing two feats to obtain.

What would your feat progression be like if you had your Vow of Poverty build with the addition of Incarnum feats?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd also consider making Vow of Poverty free, rather than costing two feats to obtain.

What would your feat progression be like if you had your Vow of Poverty build with the addition of Incarnum feats?

IIRC, there's not really enough viable Exalted feats to take past a certain point, and every [Incarnum] feat gets you a point of essentia, so they're more useful than nothing (like, say, Touch of Golden Ice on a ranged character).

[liquidformat]

I'd also consider making Vow of Poverty free, rather than costing two feats to obtain.

What would your feat progression be like if you had your Vow of Poverty build with the addition of Incarnum feats?

I do plan on removing Sacred Vow as said in the last sentence of the first paragraph.

and I didn't mean bonus incarnum feats separately from from the bonus exalted feats, simply whenever you get a bonus exalted feat you can choose to take an incarnum feat that you qualify for. As Kullvheysoon said there aren't enough exalted feats to begin with I think there are something like 20 total and of those only about 5 to 10 are useful and viable for any specific build so I have often found I get to a point where I have more bonus exalted feat slots but nothing I want to take pretty quickly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are you just talking about incarnum-based feats in general, or [incarnum] feats? Because Shape Soulmeld should be available, at the very least.

[Darg]

Just make the bonus exalted feats bonus any feats. As for the stupid rules lawyer stuff, use your head on whether it seems balanced vs fun.

[Thurbane]

Just make the bonus exalted feats bonus any feats. As for the stupid rules lawyer stuff, use your head on whether it seems balanced vs fun.

Seconded.

Using RAI instead of RAW is the first step, to avoid the moronic "cannot open doors" consequence of the wording.

And making the bonus feats general bonus feats is a quite common house rule.

[RandomPeasant]

Fixing Vow of Poverty is an exercise in futility because the thing that is broken is 3e's magic item system, not Vow of Poverty. If magic items are mandatory (and in 3e, they are) no alternative to magic items can effectively replace them without being, in effect, a bunch of magic items. The "fixed Vow of Poverty" is just to collectively agree to pretend that the Druid or Monk or Sorcerer's magic items are actually benefits of a Vow they took.

[Maat Mons]

I'd basically just create a trimmed-down list of magic item effects and a point-system for buying them.

Then create a few different progressions of not-magic-items points by level. One for use in magic-item-less games (or by voluntarily-poor characters in normal games). One for use in magic-item-lite games. And maybe one you can upgrade to by taking a feat.

Actually, let's run with that feat idea. Make an opt-in system for gaining not-magic-item points (scaled to your level) to spend on special abilities that mimic magic items. Anyone can take the feat(s) and have those benefits on top of magic items. Then make Vow of Poverty a flaw (or multiple flaws), so you can get the not-magic-items feat(s) for "free."

[pabelfly]

I do plan on removing Sacred Vow as said in the last sentence of the first paragraph.

And I'm suggesting that Vow of Poverty should be a free option too, rather than a feat.


I didn't mean bonus incarnum feats separately from from the bonus exalted feats, simply whenever you get a bonus exalted feat you can choose to take an incarnum feat that you qualify for. As Kullvheysoon said there aren't enough exalted feats to begin with I think there are something like 20 total and of those only about 5 to 10 are useful and viable for any specific build so I have often found I get to a point where I have more bonus exalted feat slots but nothing I want to take pretty quickly.

To clarify, my question is what your feats are going to look like, level 1-20, from Vow of Poverty as well as your regular levelling feats?

[liquidformat]

Are you just talking about incarnum-based feats in general, or [incarnum] feats? Because Shape Soulmeld should be available, at the very least.

I was thinking all the feats in the book, Necrocarnum and Undead Meldshaper are already restricted.


Seconded.

Using RAI instead of RAW is the first step, to avoid the moronic "cannot open doors" consequence of the wording.

And making the bonus feats general bonus feats is a quite common house rule.
True that would make it a lot more versatile, getting potentially 10 bonus feats is nothing to sneeze at.

And I'm suggesting that Vow of Poverty should be a free option too, rather than a feat.

I suppose, you are already giving up WBL so that is already quite an investment. So maybe switching Vow of Poverty and the other Vows over to Traits rather than feats?


To clarify, my question is what your feats are going to look like, level 1-20, from Vow of Poverty as well as your regular levelling feats?

I guess the confusion comes from the fact I didn't propose nor am I proposing changing feat distribution...
So you would still be getting a bonus 'exalted' feat at first level and all even levels and normal character feats.


I'd basically just create a trimmed-down list of magic item effects and a point-system for buying them.

Then create a few different progressions of not-magic-items points by level. One for use in magic-item-less games (or by voluntarily-poor characters in normal games). One for use in magic-item-lite games. And maybe one you can upgrade to by taking a feat.

To be honest that sounds pretty intensive evaluation process, just making ancestral relic a valid feat with the soul meld progression seems like it would go a long way to doing the same with a lot less effort. Maybe adding in Legacy feats to work with ancestral relic could be pretty interesting as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) Make Vow of Poverty a LA +0 Template that grants you some abilities based on HD and that you lose if you violate the vow.
2) Make the bonus feats "Any non [evil]/[vile]"
3) Clean up the wording to remove the stupidity (i.e. not being able to open doors, or potentially walk on roads).
4) Add a handful of critical abilities at the appropriate levels (Scorn Earth, from the Elocator, at 6 and Balance on the Sky at 12 or so to solve the flight issues, for example).

VoP largely fixed.

If you are willing to get away from the Exalted bit, make it a Vow made to any deity and you sacrifice all your material wealth to the deity, and you can't take feats opposed to your deities alignment (and the relevant parts of VoW are changed to work with your deities alignment).

[Bohandas]

Make it a trait instead of a feat

[Darg]

4) Add a handful of critical abilities at the appropriate levels (Scorn Earth, from the Elocator, at 6 and Balance on the Sky at 12 or so to solve the flight issues, for example).

I don't think flight needs to be a base ability for the vow. Some people play without it and things turn out just fine. Mostly, if flight is a regular dilemma then the party generally has spellcasters quite capable of casting it on the vowee. Not to mention, there are several ways using feats to gain access to flight if it is desired.

Changes I would personally like see to the feat's abilities are that regeneration happens at level 5, freedom of movement at 9th, and trueseeing at 13. Damage reduction should be +1/magic per 2 levels which improves to x/magic and evil at 15. I would also prefer that the NA/deflection AC bonuses had better scaling up to +4 or 5 by 20. Seriously, no one just stops at a +2 or 3 necklace/ring unless they are burning items which the poverty master definitely isn't. A permanent protection from evil would also be a valid ability to add by level 3, maybe even level 1.

[RandomPeasant]

Mostly, if flight is a regular dilemma then the party generally has spellcasters quite capable of casting it on the vowee.

As always, "just beg people for buffs" is not a reliable strategy. fly is on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, the Travel domain list, and some other obscure lists. That means if your party caster is a Beguiler, or a Druid, or a Warmage, or a Dread Necromancer, or a Wu Jen, or a Healer, you're not going to be able to ask them for flight. A Sorcerer might have fly, but they also might choose to pick a different utility spell, or more combat spells. Similarly, while Travel is certainly a fine choice for a domain, there are plenty of other things Clerics could do instead. So you're only really reliably getting flight out of a Wizard, and even then voluntarily taking on a restriction that causes you to need support for other characters is not something many people are going to look favorably on. Flight is pretty necessary to compete in the high-level environment, and the majority of class-agnostic ways of getting it are locked out by Vow of Poverty.

[Melayl]

I'd basically just create a trimmed-down list of magic item effects and a point-system for buying them.

Then create a few different progressions of not-magic-items points by level. One for use in magic-item-less games (or by voluntarily-poor characters in normal games). One for use in magic-item-lite games. And maybe one you can upgrade to by taking a feat.

Actually, let's run with that feat idea. Make an opt-in system for gaining not-magic-item points (scaled to your level) to spend on special abilities that mimic magic items. Anyone can take the feat(s) and have those benefits on top of magic items. Then make Vow of Poverty a flaw (or multiple flaws), so you can get the not-magic-items feat(s) for "free."

This sounds very intriguing. Do you have any ideas on how to flesh this out?

[Darg]

As always, "just beg people for buffs" is not a reliable strategy. fly is on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, the Travel domain list, and some other obscure lists. That means if your party caster is a Beguiler, or a Druid, or a Warmage, or a Dread Necromancer, or a Wu Jen, or a Healer, you're not going to be able to ask them for flight. A Sorcerer might have fly, but they also might choose to pick a different utility spell, or more combat spells. Similarly, while Travel is certainly a fine choice for a domain, there are plenty of other things Clerics could do instead. So you're only really reliably getting flight out of a Wizard, and even then voluntarily taking on a restriction that causes you to need support for other characters is not something many people are going to look favorably on. Flight is pretty necessary to compete in the high-level environment, and the majority of class-agnostic ways of getting it are locked out by Vow of Poverty.

If the party doesn't have flight as a readily available ability, there's no need to regularly have adventures that require it. Polymorph is also a way to get access to flight. Airstep Sandals and Pegasus Cloak soulmelds give flight, dragon wings, and you can hitch a ride with another character provided they take the form of a larger creature or they are using a mount themselves.

It's also funny how you say that begging is not a reliable strategy when it in fact is recommended behavior:


One option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other party members

Why is it so hard for people nowadays to work as a team. On these forums I just keep hearing people expect every person to be able to have the versatility of a t1 caster even if they are a fighter. THAT is unreasonable. THAT is not how the game was designed. THAT is not fun, but if they want to play a solo game in the company of others I guess it's cool. To each their own.

[Thurbane]

Why is it so hard for people nowadays to work as a team. On these forums I just keep hearing people expect every person to be able to have the versatility of a t1 caster even if they are a fighter. THAT is unreasonable. THAT is not how the game was designed. THAT is not fun, but if they want to play a solo game in the company of others I guess it's cool. To each their own.

Yeah, gotta say, I agree with this somewhat.

Buffer is a recognised party role, and honestly, there's a big difference in getting long(ish) terms buffs up outside of combat, and stopping to ask a primary spellcaster in the middle of combat to give up his action for the round so you can get Displacement or something similar.

I can't help but feel if the game wasn't designed at least partially around casters buffing party members, a lot more buff spells would be Range: Personal.

While it's true 3E places a heavy reliance on magical gear (especially for mundanes) and VoP messes with that, it's not an unreasonable expectation that a certain amount of the party's spell pool will go on buffs each day, and not just for the casters themselves. At least IMHO.

[RandomPeasant]

If the party doesn't have flight as a readily available ability, there's no need to regularly have adventures that require it.

By that standard, no ability is ever required. Party doesn't have raise dead? No problem, just never have them encounter any Bodaks or casters with finger of death. The monster manual is full of monsters that have flight and ranged attacks. By mid levels, you need to either have flight or a viable plan for attacking at range, or you're dead weight against a range of encounters that gets wider every level.


It's also funny how you say that begging is not a reliable strategy when it in fact is recommended behavior:

It's funny how that isn't remotely a counter-argument. Yes, the gaming advice in Vow of Poverty is as bad as the rest of Vow of Poverty. I'm sure there's someone out there this surprises, but I haven't met them.


Why is it so hard for people nowadays to work as a team.

If you cause a problem for yourself, someone else not warping their build so they can fix it is not "not working as a team", it's an entirely reasonable position to take. If you take Vow of Poverty, and that stops you from getting flight, I (as someone playing a Warmage) am under no obligation to go out and pick up Arcane Disciple (Travel) to fix the problem you caused. The person who is not being a team player here is you, the person who put the rest of the team in a hole for no reason.


Buffer is a recognised party role

Sure. But like any party role, it is optional. No one is saying that you can't buff people if that's what you want to do. If you want to play a Bard who juices up the party's martials, that's fine. If you want to play a War Weaver who casts a bunch of buff spells that make the rest of the party rock, that's fine. But wanting to play a character who can't, or simply doesn't, buff the rest of the party is also fine. If you roll up a Dread Necromancer, there are certainly spells you could cast on your allies, but I doubt the Fighter is going to be terribly excited to be the recipient of a slay living or energy drain. But the fact that you can't buff your allies doesn't mean you're "not a team player" anymore than the fact that the Bard doesn't come with any zombies means he's not a team player for not providing disposable meatshields. People contribute in different ways, and demanding that someone contribute in a specific way because of how you built your character is being a bad team player, as is building a character who needs specific kinds of support to function without confirming that the rest of the party can and will provide that support.

I mean, look at it the other way. Have you ever seen someone say "you need to play a Warblade instead of a Fighter so you can use white raven tactics to help me cast more spells"? Because I haven't. The demand for "teamwork" only ever goes in one direction. If you demand that people give you things, but don't offer anything in return, that's parasitism, not teamwork.

[Thurbane]

I mean, look at it the other way. Have you ever seen someone say "you need to play a Warblade instead of a Fighter so you can use white raven tactics to help me cast more spells"? Because I haven't. The demand for "teamwork" only ever goes in one direction. If you demand that people give you things, but don't offer anything in return, that's parasitism, not teamwork.

That's quite an odd takeaway from what I mentioned...

Does someone in your party HAVE to be a buffer, even if it's against their will? Nope. In practice, do 90% of parties include some kind of buffer, even if it isn't their primary role? In my experience, yes. And they are very rarely "full time buffer", more often it's just one of the hats they wear.

I find it a little weird that there seems to be an expected/assumed play style when it comes to magic items, but not an expected/assumed play style when it comes to party roles or composition.

I just don't think the logical outcome of having a VoP character in the party is that someone else will be forced into the role of full time buffer.

It's a pretty established fact of D&D that the assumed playstyle, especially in pre-published modules, will include certain party roles being covered. I mean, theoretically no one should be forced to play a caster, if they don't want to - but if you end up with a party of 4 monks, or 4 fighters, or whatever, the party is going to seriously struggle with certain challenges of the game, even if they are equipped to the teeth with full WBL.

There are two main options here: 1.) someone plays a class or fills a role that they weren't initially planning on (happened to me plenty of times in my three and a half decades of playing); or 2.) the DM tailors challenges to the party's capabilities.

[Darg]

Sure. But like any party role, it is optional. No one is saying that you can't buff people if that's what you want to do. If you want to play a Bard who juices up the party's martials, that's fine. If you want to play a War Weaver who casts a bunch of buff spells that make the rest of the party rock, that's fine. But wanting to play a character who can't, or simply doesn't, buff the rest of the party is also fine. If you roll up a Dread Necromancer, there are certainly spells you could cast on your allies, but I doubt the Fighter is going to be terribly excited to be the recipient of a slay living or energy drain. But the fact that you can't buff your allies doesn't mean you're "not a team player" anymore than the fact that the Bard doesn't come with any zombies means he's not a team player for not providing disposable meatshields. People contribute in different ways, and demanding that someone contribute in a specific way because of how you built your character is being a bad team player, as is building a character who needs specific kinds of support to function without confirming that the rest of the party can and will provide that support.

I mean, look at it the other way. Have you ever seen someone say "you need to play a Warblade instead of a Fighter so you can use white raven tactics to help me cast more spells"? Because I haven't. The demand for "teamwork" only ever goes in one direction. If you demand that people give you things, but don't offer anything in return, that's parasitism, not teamwork.

Why are you phrasing it as a demand? Being a team player is just that, being a team player. Wizards use fighters as meat shields. Isn't that just as parasitic as asking for consideration in spell selection? You are supposed to work together to cover for the weaknesses of each other. Wizards don't have much health and are pretty defenseless without their magic. Other classes can pick up that slack. At high level play, sure t1 casters can pretty much solo what ever they want, but first they have to rely on other players to get there. If they want to abandon the people they played with to get there, they aren't making friends. For D&D to work, it relies on social dependency. If the party doesn't want to rely on each other, then it just isn't going to be a fun time.

[Thurbane]

Why are you phrasing it as a demand? Being a team player is just that, being a team player. Wizards use fighters as meat shields. Isn't that just as parasitic as asking for consideration in spell selection? You are supposed to work together to cover for the weaknesses of each other. Wizards don't have much health and are pretty defenseless without their magic. Other classes can pick up that slack. At high level play, sure t1 casters can pretty much solo what ever they want, but first they have to rely on other players to get there. If they want to abandon the people they played with to get there, they aren't making friends. For D&D to work, it relies on social dependency. If the party doesn't want to rely on each other, then it just isn't going to be a fun time.

This too. I was going to include something similar in my last post, but trying to post between calls at work made it challenging.

If the VoP character is stepping up as a meat shield or whatever, and there are some fights where they need caster assistance to help them contribute, I don't think it's really that much of a one sided relationship.

[Gnaeus]

If you made the change to general feats that should be sufficient. I feel confident there is a way to fly with 10 bonus feats. Fey heritage is the way I think of, which gives you summon monster V for a flying mount, but I’m pretty sure there are better ways. Or at least better ways for most classes.

Failing that, I’m certain you could at least make yourself good at ranged combat for those enemies that snipe you from the air, if no allies are offering fly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You may want to give VoP access to Ancestral Relic; the character can choose one nonmagical item that they can channel spiritual energy into; that item now works as a magical item of their choice, but does not act as such for anyone else, making it essentially worthless to others (and thus not worth giving away). Alternatively, they can use their body as the "nonmagical item," essentially magically enhancing themselves in some fashion. For instance, a monk enhancing their unarmed strikes, which allows for, say, Throwing and Distance so that they can literally hurl themselves bodily through the air like what happens in a lot of wuxia. It might not be true flight, but it's a great substitute.

[RandomPeasant]

That's quite an odd takeaway from what I mentioned...

Well, there's a broader context here. The abstract position "a lot of the time someone will be available to buff" is fine. But that's not what's being discussed. Darg's position is that if you don't help the Fighter out by fixing problems he created for himself, you're not being a team player. And in that context, the demand for buffs is a lot less reasonable.


Why are you phrasing it as a demand? Being a team player is just that, being a team player. Wizards use fighters as meat shields.

And Wizards cast spells that make the monsters Fighters are fighting dead. That's being a team player. You're the one making it out to be a demand when you declare someone else not automatically using their resources to solve problems you create "not a team player". You don't have to contribute in a specific way to be a team player, you just have to contribute.

[liquidformat]

I just don't think the logical outcome of having a VoP character in the party is that someone else will be forced into the role of full time buffer.

Honestly this is a lot of the reason I like the idea of giving VoP a meldshape progression. A lot of people really rag on the soulborn but its melds are pretty solid and give you a some decent buffs to attack, damage, ac, immunities to most things, and flight. They are pretty rock solid and I think does a lot to bridge the issues not having magic items creates in the buffing department.


You may want to give VoP access to Ancestral Relic; the character can choose one nonmagical item that they can channel spiritual energy into; that item now works as a magical item of their choice, but does not act as such for anyone else, making it essentially worthless to others (and thus not worth giving away). Alternatively, they can use their body as the "nonmagical item," essentially magically enhancing themselves in some fashion. For instance, a monk enhancing their unarmed strikes, which allows for, say, Throwing and Distance so that they can literally hurl themselves bodily through the air like what happens in a lot of wuxia. It might not be true flight, but it's a great substitute.

Yeah I was already looking at doing that. I commented on it briefly in an earlier post. I think it could be cool to pull some of the weapon of legacy stuff into the ancestral relic progression or item familiar stuff but it depends.
You actually see in a decent amount of eastern lore the swordsman who has devoted themselves to their sword and besides that is a popper with no money or material goods.

[King of Nowhere]

I'd basically just create a trimmed-down list of magic item effects and a point-system for buying them.

Then create a few different progressions of not-magic-items points by level. One for use in magic-item-less games (or by voluntarily-poor characters in normal games). One for use in magic-item-lite games. And maybe one you can upgrade to by taking a feat.

Actually, let's run with that feat idea. Make an opt-in system for gaining not-magic-item points (scaled to your level) to spend on special abilities that mimic magic items. Anyone can take the feat(s) and have those benefits on top of magic items. Then make Vow of Poverty a flaw (or multiple flaws), so you can get the not-magic-items feat(s) for "free."

to expand on that, and also tie it to fluff, you can say that you donate your loot to charitable causes, and for every loot you gift this way, your patron god gives you bonuses equivalent to magic items you could buy with it. make it less versatile, otherwise vop becomes just a bonus. for example, you can get any bonus, but it must be slotless, so it cost twice. Then you gift 72k gp to charity, and you can use that to get a +6 enhancement to a stat.

Actually, if vop worked this way, at least in my games - where loot flows abundant, so you rarely have to sacrifice, but disjunctions and other item breakers are also used liberally - paying twice for your gear in exchange for it being immune to being broken would be a net benefit.

[Telonius]

I think that Fixing Vow of Poverty should center around this idea: the feat is not about making a super-powerful character. It's about making an otherwise-unplayable concept (somebody who has sworn off material possessions), playable.

One thing it tries to do decently well, is get the basic numbers to (more or less) match up. Somewhere around the time the rest of the party is looking at +3 weapons, VoP gives you +3 Exalted Strike. It's not perfect, and it might not even be equal, but it's at least within shouting distance.

Where the feat really fails, is in giving out the utility stuff that most characters would get through magic items. The List of Necessary Magic Items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) is a good start to compare. Does VoP give you the equivalent to any of this?

Flight? No.
Mind Blank? Kind-of. Mind Shielding prevents detect thoughts, but it doesn't stop you from being possessed.
Stun negation? No.
Daze negation? No.
Fear immunity? No.
True Seeing? Good news: Yes. Bad news: Not until 18th level.
Miss Chance? No.
Tactical Teleportation? No.
Immunity to Death Effects/Drain/Negative Energy? No.
Freedom of Movement? Yes, at 14th level.
Extradimensional Storage Space? No. (You might think this isn't necessary, but you've got to haul all of that loot back to the orphanage somehow).
Dispel Magic? No.
Initiative? Kind-of, if you pump Dex.
Special Senses? No.

So for all of those utility things, you have two that you get levels later than when you start needing them, two that are only sort-of covered, and a whole bunch of things that you just won't have unless you can get them through your own casting, feats, or class features; or if your party casts them for you. Flight, in particular, is a really egregious thing not to have. Getting a pair of angel (or Fae, or whatever) wings, whether permanent or x rounds/day, seems like a pretty obvious thing to tack on.

Can you have a "playable" character that doesn't fill all of those needs? Sure. But it really hobbles you if you have a character that can barely fill any of them. Any fix to VoP should give at least several of them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Extradimensional Storage Space? No. (You might think this isn't necessary, but you've got to haul all of that loot back to the orphanage somehow). That's another thing I'm wondering, now that I think about it. The poverty restrictions say you're allowed to carry a few different things, such as some nonmagical simple weapons, a sack, a bit of clothing, food, and such, indicating that carrying other things is verboten, by implication, if not explicitly. If that's the case, how are you supposed to carry a +3 sword of dragon-slaying back to town to give to Little Orphan Annie? Do you have to force the party to carry it back for you? And what stops them from simply keeping it, instead?

[Gnaeus]

I think that Fixing Vow of Poverty should center around this idea: the feat is not about making a super-powerful character. It's about making an otherwise-unplayable concept (somebody who has sworn off material possessions), playable.

One thing it tries to do decently well, is get the basic numbers to (more or less) match up. Somewhere around the time the rest of the party is looking at +3 weapons, VoP gives you +3 Exalted Strike. It's not perfect, and it might not even be equal, but it's at least within shouting distance.

Where the feat really fails, is in giving out the utility stuff that most characters would get through magic items. The List of Necessary Magic Items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) is a good start to compare. Does VoP give you the equivalent to any of this?

Flight? No.
Mind Blank? Kind-of. Mind Shielding prevents detect thoughts, but it doesn't stop you from being possessed.
Stun negation? No.
Daze negation? No.
Fear immunity? No.
True Seeing? Good news: Yes. Bad news: Not until 18th level.
Miss Chance? No.
Tactical Teleportation? No.
Immunity to Death Effects/Drain/Negative Energy? No.
Freedom of Movement? Yes, at 14th level.
Extradimensional Storage Space? No. (You might think this isn't necessary, but you've got to haul all of that loot back to the orphanage somehow).
Dispel Magic? No.
Initiative? Kind-of, if you pump Dex.
Special Senses? No.

So for all of those utility things, you have two that you get levels later than when you start needing them, two that are only sort-of covered, and a whole bunch of things that you just won't have unless you can get them through your own casting, feats, or class features; or if your party casts them for you. Flight, in particular, is a really egregious thing not to have. Getting a pair of angel (or Fae, or whatever) wings, whether permanent or x rounds/day, seems like a pretty obvious thing to tack on.

Can you have a "playable" character that doesn't fill all of those needs? Sure. But it really hobbles you if you have a character that can barely fill any of them. Any fix to VoP should give at least several of them.

Let’s say we are using tippy’s suggestion and allowing general feats for the bonus feats.

Say we are in a T5 class that can’t do much innately and has little to build from. The worst to me look like knight, samurai.

So, 10 bonus feats. Let’s throw out a few
Fey Heritage/legacy. Gives DDoor, flying pet, Area control spell 1/day each. And a bonus versus enchantment.
Improved Initiative
Blind Fighting
That’s 4 feats that mostly solve 4 of those and help with a 5th.

Now let’s take survivors luck, advantageous avoidance, and a couple other luck feats. Not exactly stun negation, daze negation, fear immunity, death negation. But 4 uses of luck per day to reroll saves or enemy attack rolls should significantly mitigate.

I’m not suggesting those are the 8 best feats. I’m sure we could do better. But those seem like they would slow the bleeding quite a bit, and by the time we creep to the mid ranked T5s like soul born and divine mind we start having chassis we can build on with incarnum feats, psionic feats, and tricks available to casters.


That's another thing I'm wondering, now that I think about it. The poverty restrictions say you're allowed to carry a few different things, such as some nonmagical simple weapons, a sack, a bit of clothing, food, and such, indicating that carrying other things is verboten, by implication, if not explicitly. If that's the case, how are you supposed to carry a +3 sword of dragon-slaying back to town to give to Little Orphan Annie? Do you have to force the party to carry it back for you? And what stops them from simply keeping it, instead?

I think any reasonable fix has to start with an agreement with the DM not to screw the player who is operating within the spirit of the feat, like by carrying treasure to a place where it can be donated.

[Darg]

You may want to give VoP access to Ancestral Relic; the character can choose one nonmagical item that they can channel spiritual energy into; that item now works as a magical item of their choice, but does not act as such for anyone else, making it essentially worthless to others (and thus not worth giving away). Alternatively, they can use their body as the "nonmagical item," essentially magically enhancing themselves in some fashion. For instance, a monk enhancing their unarmed strikes, which allows for, say, Throwing and Distance so that they can literally hurl themselves bodily through the air like what happens in a lot of wuxia. It might not be true flight, but it's a great substitute.

I'd say donation of wealth is a sacrifice as the feat doesn't mention what sacrificing entails. You could stand out on the street corner donating your wealth to the needy and then meditate/pray during or after. The issue is that RAW states that a magic weapon is a weapon with a +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls. This means that even a soulknife's mindblade is considered a magic weapon at level 4, by definition at least. This automatically disqualifies the ancestral weapon from being used by the vowee. At the same time the exalted strike feature also breaks the vow soo... I don't see why this couldn't be a thing


And Wizards cast spells that make the monsters Fighters are fighting dead. That's being a team player. You're the one making it out to be a demand when you declare someone else not automatically using their resources to solve problems you create "not a team player". You don't have to contribute in a specific way to be a team player, you just have to contribute.

And buffing your ally to make the creature dead is a valid tactic too. The way you are looking at the situation is warped. It's not the player causing the problems, it's the system. When you make it the player's fault the game ceases to be a game of players vs environment and turns into players vs players. By YOUR definition, any player not choosing a t1 class is specifically causing problems for everyone else. That isn't how the game was designed to be viewed. A person who takes a vow of poverty will probably be well liked by those lacking in resources as they give away everything. That is extremely valuable in and of itself. So, in fact, the vowee is contributing in a way that other players wouldn't be able to. You never said how much they have to contribute.

[Gnaeus]

That isn't how the game was designed to be viewed. A person who takes a vow of poverty will probably be well liked by those lacking in resources as they give away everything. That is extremely valuable in and of itself. So, in fact, the vowee is contributing in a way that other players wouldn't be able to. You never said how much they have to contribute.

That doesn’t seem correct, since the feat says that other players don’t get bigger shares. Really the only benefits party members would see from that are general public goodwill and a convenient way to dump trash gear they were going to sell anyway.

[Psyren]

So reading through a lot of the threads on Vow of Poverty fixes and ignoring the stupid rules like not being able to use doors or roads and so on that can be fixed simply by cleaning up the text. The two big issues with VoP seem to be that first VoP doesn't do a great job of representing WBL and second it isn't flexible enough to work well for all classes. Milling this over I was wondering If I took the Soulborn Meldshaping and chakra binds progression with soulmeld alignment restrictions and opened up the bonus exalted feats to include incarnum feats as well how much would this addition help to fix the down falls of VoP. Also removing Sacred Vow as a prerequisite for all Vows since it is pretty worthless.

Is this enough to fix the down falls of VoP or does it fall short? If it falls short what else would you add or change to balance out VoP?

While I don't see a problem with the "any feat" approach, restricting it to incarnum (or vivicarnum?) makes some amount of thematic sense as well.

I agree that you need to word it properly to avoid locking out non-[incarnum] incarnum feats like Shape Soulmeld.

I would consider a clause that lets you get more juice out of Bonus Essentia so that those soulmelds can actually be used properly.

[Gnaeus]

While I don't see a problem with the "any feat" approach, restricting it to incarnum (or vivicarnum?) makes some amount of thematic sense as well.

I agree that you need to word it properly to avoid locking out non-[incarnum] incarnum feats like Shape Soulmeld.

I would consider a clause that lets you get more juice out of Bonus Essentia so that those soulmelds can actually be used properly.

I think it would go a long way to fixing it for most classes. Incarnum checks some of the boxes on the list. I think it would wind up quite strong for some classes (like soulborn) but no problem there. Classes with modular abilities like spells could work around it.

The worst hit as always would be the bottom of the tier barrier. Is it functional on Knight or Samurai? Unsure. What I would expect is to see is a few important items boxes checked with incarna, but most incarnum feats just improving numbers to replace general combat feats, so that the normally available general feats that would otherwise be fixing the numbers get retasked to checking things on the needed powers list. Which is fine also I guess.

[Telonius]

Let’s say we are using tippy’s suggestion and allowing general feats for the bonus feats.

Say we are in a T5 class that can’t do much innately and has little to build from. The worst to me look like knight, samurai.

So, 10 bonus feats. Let’s throw out a few
Fey Heritage/legacy. Gives DDoor, flying pet, Area control spell 1/day each. And a bonus versus enchantment.
Improved Initiative
Blind Fighting
That’s 4 feats that mostly solve 4 of those and help with a 5th.

Now let’s take survivors luck, advantageous avoidance, and a couple other luck feats. Not exactly stun negation, daze negation, fear immunity, death negation. But 4 uses of luck per day to reroll saves or enemy attack rolls should significantly mitigate.

I’m not suggesting those are the 8 best feats. I’m sure we could do better. But those seem like they would slow the bleeding quite a bit, and by the time we creep to the mid ranked T5s like soul born and divine mind we start having chassis we can build on with incarnum feats, psionic feats, and tricks available to casters.



I think any reasonable fix has to start with an agreement with the DM not to screw the player who is operating within the spirit of the feat, like by carrying treasure to a place where it can be donated.

I like the idea, but I really dislike shoehorning a character concept into a particular ancestry. I know this is a strong personal preference, and other people may not care about it as much or at all, but it just feels wrong to me. It would be simple enough to houserule a change to the feat's fluff. But if we're going for a more general solution I'd prefer flight to be a power that's granted by the feat itself, not by the bonus feats that you get to select because of the feat. (Getting wings directly by divine power is just too thematic for me to want to pass up).

[liquidformat]

I think it would go a long way to fixing it for most classes. Incarnum checks some of the boxes on the list. I think it would wind up quite strong for some classes (like soulborn) but no problem there. Classes with modular abilities like spells could work around it.

The worst hit as always would be the bottom of the tier barrier. Is it functional on Knight or Samurai? Unsure. What I would expect is to see is a few important items boxes checked with incarna, but most incarnum feats just improving numbers to replace general combat feats, so that the normally available general feats that would otherwise be fixing the numbers get retasked to checking things on the needed powers list. Which is fine also I guess.

I think the addition of soulborn's meldshaping and chakra binds progression in and of itself fills a lot of the boxes Telonius presented. Enough anyway to really help bring VoP up to par. By then also changing the bonus feats to 'Any" with the restriction of no evil, vile, and so forth it should be pretty powerful for most classes. Changing VoP to a trait and adding in Ancestral Relic; maybe specifically calling out Weapon of Legacy feats and abilities to work with said Ancestral Relic or item familiar I think you end up with something that is versatile enough to work well as a fix without going into the crazy complexity of analyzing magic items and creating a janky point buy system of items.

On a side note I noticed that there is a table vs text inconsistency in bonus exalted feats. By the text you get a bonus feat at level one and every even level there after which would give you 11 bonus feats instead of 10.

[Gnaeus]

I think the addition of soulborn's meldshaping and chakra binds progression in and of itself fills a lot of the boxes Telonius presented. Enough anyway to really help bring VoP up to par. By then also changing the bonus feats to 'Any" with the restriction of no evil, vile, and so forth it should be pretty powerful for most classes. Changing VoP to a trait and adding in Ancestral Relic; maybe specifically calling out Weapon of Legacy feats and abilities to work with said Ancestral Relic or item familiar I think you end up with something that is versatile enough to work well as a fix without going into the crazy complexity of analyzing magic items and creating a janky point buy system of items.l.

Given that I thought opening up the bonus feats to any was already sufficient, obviously I have to agree that adding soulborn progression to that would work too.

By the time you start adding in ancestral relics also you might be exceeding normal WBL (remember, normal VOP already exceeds normal WBL, just spent poorly) and entering the point where most players wouldn’t use items. Whether that is a good thing would vary.


I like the idea, but I really dislike shoehorning a character concept into a particular ancestry. I know this is a strong personal preference, and other people may not care about it as much or at all, but it just feels wrong to me. It would be simple enough to houserule a change to the feat's fluff. But if we're going for a more general solution I'd prefer flight to be a power that's granted by the feat itself, not by the bonus feats that you get to select because of the feat. (Getting wings directly by divine power is just too thematic for me to want to pass up).

Fair. But that’s just one solution. I’m not even claiming it’s best. You could get flight via incarnum I think, then get your teleports from shadow hand. Or your immunities from iron heart surge or diamond mind. It seems like there are multiple ways to approach it once you open up the bonus feats.

[Darg]

That doesn’t seem correct, since the feat says that other players don’t get bigger shares. Really the only benefits party members would see from that are general public goodwill and a convenient way to dump trash gear they were going to sell anyway.

I don't see why it wouldn't increase disposition toward the character. The players don't get bigger shares, but the share the VoP holder has goes to donations or some such thing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't see why it wouldn't increase disposition toward the character. The players don't get bigger shares, but the share the VoP holder has goes to donations or some such thing.Technically, the VoP character only has to give away 1cp more than 50% of their share to not break their vow; the party can keep the rest of it, or it can be "donated" to someone who agrees to perform a service in return (such as casting some spells for the VoP character or enhancing his body magically).

Hmm. Sapient creatures themselves are worth money, due to slavery rules, if nothing else. It'd suck if a VoP character got captured by slavers, since they'd automatically be in possession of their own bodies and minds, which are now technically valuable...

[Kuulvheysoon]

Technically, the VoP character only has to give away 1cp more than 50% of their share to not break their vow; the party can keep the rest of it, or it can be "donated" to someone who agrees to perform a service in return (such as casting some spells for the VoP character or enhancing his body magically).

Hmm. Sapient creatures themselves are worth money, due to slavery rules, if nothing else. It'd suck if a VoP character got captured by slavers, since they'd automatically be in possession of their own bodies and minds, which are now technically valuable...

Isn't the point of being enslaved that you don't own yourself, though? A VoP character wouldn't be able to own a slave, but being enslaved in and of itself shouldn't count against your WBL (and isn't that just messed up to think about).

RAW, a free VoP character would be more likely to count as worth cashy money.

[Darg]

Technically, the VoP character only has to give away 1cp more than 50% of their share to not break their vow; the party can keep the rest of it, or it can be "donated" to someone who agrees to perform a service in return (such as casting some spells for the VoP character or enhancing his body magically).

Hmm. Sapient creatures themselves are worth money, due to slavery rules, if nothing else. It'd suck if a VoP character got captured by slavers, since they'd automatically be in possession of their own bodies and minds, which are now technically valuable...

Take advantage of the leadership feat and have a private buff bot that you "donate" your share to?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Isn't the point of being enslaved that you don't own yourself, though? A VoP character wouldn't be able to own a slave, but being enslaved in and of itself shouldn't count against your WBL (and isn't that just messed up to think about).

RAW, a free VoP character would be more likely to count as worth cashy money.They're possessing themselves in the same way a ghost does, at the very least.

[Gnaeus]

Technically, the VoP character only has to give away 1cp more than 50% of their share to not break their vow; the party can keep the rest of it, or it can be "donated" to someone who agrees to perform a service in return (such as casting some spells for the VoP character or enhancing his body magically).
.

It entirely blows my mind that you would seriously advance this as a possibility while worrying about whether it would violate a vow to carry a +3 sword back to a temple to donate it. The point of that paragraph was that other players don’t get a windfall because Joe the hermit took VoP.

If a player advanced this argument I would explain that having “donated” their treasure they now have the benefits of a “vow of poverty” which has none of the benefits of a vow of poverty, but which lets you keep whatever part of your wealth you want. If you cheat, and I don’t mean by using a doorknob or walking on a road or using your spellbook or a soul blade, but if you try to game your holy vow, you get what Willie Wonka gives rotten children. “so you get... NOTHING!!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY, SIR!!!”


Take advantage of the leadership feat and have a private buff bot that you "donate" your share to? And here Violet Beauregard joins Augustus Gloop

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It entirely blows my mind that you would seriously advance this as a possibility while worrying about whether it would violate a vow to carry a +3 sword back to a temple to donate it. The point of that paragraph was that other players don’t get a windfall because Joe the hermit took VoP.

If a player advanced this argument I would explain that having “donated” their treasure they now have the benefits of a “vow of poverty” which has none of the benefits of a vow of poverty, but which lets you keep whatever part of your wealth you want. If you cheat, and I don’t mean by using a doorknob or walking on a road or using your spellbook or a soul blade, but if you try to game your holy vow, you get what Willie Wonka gives rotten children. “so you get... NOTHING!!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY, SIR!!!”

And here Violet Beauregard joins Augustus GloopConsider it both ends of "VoP's Advocate." The devil's in the details.

[liquidformat]

Isn't the point of being enslaved that you don't own yourself, though? A VoP character wouldn't be able to own a slave, but being enslaved in and of itself shouldn't count against your WBL (and isn't that just messed up to think about).

RAW, a free VoP character would be more likely to count as worth cashy money.

Technically a VoP character who has become enslaved or escapes or is bought and freed by someone now owns themselves which would in fact violate their oath by RAW...

[Quentinas]

Technically a VoP character who has become enslaved or escapes or is bought and freed by someone now owns themselves which would in fact violate their oath by RAW...

I'm not sure because he would have gained his freedom , and I don't think freedom is a material possession or something with a cost , and even before being enslaved he had his freedom (because he lost his freedom when he was enslaved) so if before he didn't break his oath he should not break the oath after the enslavement (or at least not only for being freed)

[gijoemike]

Back to the point of the thread of how to FIX VoP....


VoP basically prevents a character from obtaining and using items that make them a contributing party member. It isn't something that a buff can fix. Notice the use of the word 'a' in that sentence. Layers of buffs usually from multiple party members are required to 'fix' VoP.


Simple scenarios that are difficult for a VoP user to handle

Fighting a Shadow which requires a magic weapon, something they cannot own.

Fighting a Werewolf or anything with DR X/special mat. They are limited in what they can own and most likely don't have that item type.
Fighting anything with DR/axiomatic/holy/evil.

Fighting a Dragon flying in the sky who cast displacement on itself. Vop character has issues flying, using true sight/miss chance reduction, and don't have a good enough magic weapon to fight the thing in general.


In each situation it takes a spell or three to overcome it. So giving a VOP character the abilty to overcome DR and movement abilities fixes some of the issues. But as stated above it doesn't fix everything

[ThanatosZero]

I dunno if the following has been suggested, but what if a VoP character gains their own spellcasting/invocations for to gain the tools to overcome the stated issues?

If it is spellcasting I suggest spells per day and known akin that of a bard, but uses the cleric spell list with specific access to exalted spells as a spontanous caster.

If it is invocations, we go the path of the warlock but need more homebrewed celestial alternatives.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I dunno if the following has been suggested, but what if a VoP character gains their own spellcasting/invocations for to gain the tools to overcome the stated issues?

If it is spellcasting I suggest spells per day and known akin that of a bard, but uses the cleric spell list with specific access to exalted spells as a spontanous caster.

If it is invocations, we go the path of the warlock but need more homebrewed celestial alternatives.Out of those options, I think invocations would be much better than the others. It'd stack better with warlock invocations (assuming VoP were alignment-agnostic), spellcasters, and muggles, and having at-wills would be more in-line with most magic items, since most items that players want are all-day affairs anyway.

Also, there's just some je ne sais quoi about it that really piques my interest, for some reason -- and this is from someone that doesn't really have much interest in warlocks.

[Thurbane]

Flight? No.
Mind Blank? Kind-of. Mind Shielding prevents detect thoughts, but it doesn't stop you from being possessed.
Stun negation? No.
Daze negation? No.
Fear immunity? No.
Miss Chance? No.
Tactical Teleportation? No.
Immunity to Death Effects/Drain/Negative Energy? No.
Extradimensional Storage Space? No. (You might think this isn't necessary, but you've got to haul all of that loot back to the orphanage somehow).
Dispel Magic? No.
Initiative? Kind-of, if you pump Dex.
Special Senses? No.

OK, so going with the general feats solution, let's take a looksee, although Gnaeus covered off a fair bit, I'll have a look myself for others. Trying to avoid feats that are class or class feature reliant.


Flight: there's a few, but most are somewhat race or ancestry related. Dragon Wings, Starspawn etc.
Mind Blank: Deformity (madness) would be great, but unfortunately it is a vile feat. Celestial Bloodline (RoF) gives Protection From Evil as an SLA 3/day. Binding Brand gives PFE as an SLA 1/day. PFE is no Mind Blank, but it helps a bit.
Stun negation: nothing I could find. Closest would be Strong Stomach, which gives immunity to Sickened, and reduces Nauseated to Sickened.
Daze negation: ditto for stun.
Fear immunity: Defender of the Homeland (while in your home region only).
Miss Chance: Cloak Dance (costs a move or full round action) [if you are a martial adept using standard action strikes, and you don't need to move more than 5 feet, can be handy]; Radiant Flicker (designed for Drow).
Tactical Teleportation: Martial Study (various Shadow Hand stuff); Ethereal Sidestep (but you have to be a Ghostwalk ghost).
Immunity to Death Effects/Drain/Negative Energy: Font of Life lets you save to avoid negative levels; Lasting Life lets you keep making saves to remove negative levels.
Extradimensional Storage Space: nothing really, but Natural Heavyweight doubles your carrying capacity.
Dispel Magic: Pierce Magical Protection (very limited scope of spells it affects); Lolth's Blessing gives Dispel Magic SLA 1/day, but has an obvious alignment conflict.
Initiative: as well as Improved Initiative - Quick Reconnoiter; Danger Sense; Thug; Blooded; Gifted General; Warrior Instinct (a large number of these are regiona;l/ancestor feats)
Special senses: Martial Stance (hunter's sense); Blindsight, 5-foot Radius; Combat Awareness; Draconic Senses; Hear The Unseen; Scorpion's Sense; Nemesis; Earth Sense


...not a full list, I suspect; and also, obviously not as effective as access to magic items.

[RandomPeasant]

At a certain point, what you're writing is no longer really a "Vow of Poverty fix", it's some entirely novel sort of character that simply happens not to need items. Notionally, Vow of Poverty is supposed to allow you to play a viable character of any class (or at least a reasonably wide range of classes) without buying items. When you start asking questions like "what if we solved this problem by stapling most of a Warlock to it", you're no longer really talking about that.

Similarly, while there probably is some way to fill the gaps by taking specific feats, demanding that every character do that goes against the premise of Vow of Poverty. The Vow is supposed to give you adequate replacement for the magic items it costs you, not require you to do a separate round of dumpster-diving for that.


And buffing your ally to make the creature dead is a valid tactic too.

Sure. If you want to buff people, buff people. If buffing people is the clearly-best tactic, buff people. But the choice to buff belongs to the player casting the buff, and not making that choice doesn't make him "not a team player" any more than choosing to play a Fighter instead of a Warblade makes someone "not a team player".


You never said how much they have to contribute.

Then how can you tell that I think everyone who isn't a T1 isn't contributing enough? Because you're right, I didn't say how much characters need to contribute. What I said was that "you can make someone else solve this problem for you" is a terrible reason not to solve a problem. And I stand by that. If you have the option to do something that creates a problem for someone else (in this case "the party beatstick needs flight"), that problem is your fault. It's not the system's fault. It's not the other player's fault for "not being a team player". It's not my fault for looking at things wrong. It's your fault for intentionally and knowingly creating a problem. So maybe don't go around creating problems for other people, then blaming the problems on them?

[Bohandas]

Isn't the point of being enslaved that you don't own yourself, though? A VoP character wouldn't be able to own a slave, but being enslaved in and of itself shouldn't count against your WBL (and isn't that just messed up to think about).

I agree. (that said there might be issues if they bought their freedom)

[Soranar]

I don't like a handful of things with VoP

you can only use simple weapons means that certain combat styles are just not an option, that bugs me

change it so that you can use/carry any non magical weapon

same for clothing, technically you can't even have holsters for daggers or crossbow bolts otherwise

I really dislike the feat tax too, I'd say give VoP for free but remove the bonus feats

Move up every ability as if you were 5 levels higher , everything comes in too late otherwise

Also step up every maximum bonus by an extra +1

Thus, by level 15, you have +5 to hit and damage but add that you can +6 by level 20 (so you bypass epic DR)

Finally clear up the non functional interpretations (using a door by turning the handle, etc)

In the end vow of poverty is supposed to be a debuff (much like playing a rogue is weaker than player a wizard), I'm fine with that.

[Kuulvheysoon]

OK, so going with the general feats solution, let's take a looksee, although Gnaeus covered off a fair bit, I'll have a look myself for others. Trying to avoid feats that are class or class feature reliant.


Stun negation: nothing I could find. Closest would be Strong Stomach, which gives immunity to Sickened, and reduces Nauseated to Sickened.
Daze negation: ditto for stun.

...not a full list, I suspect; and also, obviously not as effective as access to magic items.

It's obscure, but in Dragonmarked there's a feat called Mark of the Dauntless. Requires any true dragonmark (so at least 1 prerequisite feat, in addition to being locked into a PHB race), but it gives immunity to stun and daze (in addition to being able to remove either condition with a touch).

EDIT: You could combo it with the Heir of Siberys PrC (requires a human) to get mind blank as an SLA, twice per day if you take all three levels. You wouldn't have to take a regular dragonmark feat that way, but you would need to take a different prerequisite feat.

[Thurbane]

It's obscure, but in Dragonmarked there's a feat called Mark of the Dauntless. Requires any true dragonmark (so at least 1 prerequisite feat, in addition to being locked into a PHB race), but it gives immunity to stun and daze (in addition to being able to remove either condition with a touch).

EDIT: You could combo it with the Heir of Siberys PrC (requires a human) to get mind blank as an SLA, twice per day if you take all three levels. You wouldn't have to take a regular dragonmark feat that way, but you would need to take a different prerequisite feat.

Well, that is definitely a handy feat.

I did a bit more digging, and found Quick Recovery: while it doesn't give immunity, if you start a turn dazed or stunned, you get a new save as a move action to end the condition. Not as good as Mark of the Dauntless, but it has no reqs, and isn't as campaign specific, in cases where that matters.

[Darg]

Then how can you tell that I think everyone who isn't a T1 isn't contributing enough? Because you're right, I didn't say how much characters need to contribute. What I said was that "you can make someone else solve this problem for you" is a terrible reason not to solve a problem. And I stand by that. If you have the option to do something that creates a problem for someone else (in this case "the party beatstick needs flight"), that problem is your fault. It's not the system's fault. It's not the other player's fault for "not being a team player". It's not my fault for looking at things wrong. It's your fault for intentionally and knowingly creating a problem. So maybe don't go around creating problems for other people, then blaming the problems on them?

And you seem to be under the impression that any martial is supposed to be able to solve any problem themselves. You contradict yourself. Either it's ok for a party member to need assistance, or it's not ok at any point. While assistance can be needed and given in varying degrees, saying it is the players fault requires a non-character build reason. WotC made the feat, not the player. The player just wants to play a flavorful character. There's just no reason to give a VoP holder access to every thing on the "necessity" list.

Good to know that you believe it's the player's fault for choosing fighter. By knowingly picking a class that doesn't natively possess flight that player created a problem that the system doesn't allow for the player to solve on their own on every occasion. I mean, what happens in an adventure that you don't see civilization for years to buy magic items? Ignore the system inequalities all you want because you can put band-aids over the issues, but don't spout that the system isn't designed with these inequalities on purpose. If the wizard wants to cast overland flight on themselves to fly over mountains or teleport without their party, good on them, but don't put the onus on the other characters to keep up with the unreasonable when the wizard's options are hundreds of times cheaper on average than anything another character can use.

[Morphic tide]

As I have stated a remarkable amount of times, I've gone over the numbers and VoP pretty often has more raw GP equivalence than WBL. The underlying problem is simple: VoP is one-size-fits-all, and Exalted feats do very little. It actually handles your base load very well, it's in the enormous breadth of layered situational defenses seen primarily in heavy-duty optimization. It handles the Big Six functions well enough to meet the game's internal math, but not nearly as well as players getting to magic-mart them just from Core, and the progression's all kinds of skewed.

The vast majority of that list of "necessary" magic items is specific to take-all-comers assurance as you start walking into Epic. Stun and Daze are such a pain to get immunity to because they are such extremely marginal conditions. Simply put, you don't actually need them because they very nearly never will show up. Miss Chance is solely a "stack every defense" function. That entire list is "but sometimes" or "stack every bonus" optimization. Sure, flight's pretty common, but it is both not absolute (Underdark, lol) and something an operational party is expected to have a spellcaster for.

You're supposed to see the Wizard and Cleric be covering the bulk of this for the party, either as pre-emptive buff spells or undoing the effect afterwards, not handle all of this internally on every character. The game is designed to be played in a party, and different classes are supposed to have different roles. Consequently, Vow of Poverty could never have been printed, and should never be reworked, to actually do all of these things as locked-in guarantees.

Because the vast majority of what's "missing" is "but sometimes", and all of it is handled by one class or another. VoP Druid can run into this issue when you look at the combat math as is, because even at 6th level they've got +7 AC over what is already an entirely viable statline where normally getting bonuses into Wild Shape demands some hefty surcharges, and Druids can deal with the vast majority of the "necessary" utilities as one of the casters who's job is to be dealing with those things.

Consequently, the only solution that makes sense is to make better Exalted feats, stripping down some existing edge-case answers for more feat power budget and the table space to fully handle basic numeric requirements on time. Then have the answers specifically require going deep enough to end up being limited in how many you can take. Because normal characters don't get to do all of this at once with items. Actual WBL doesn't work out for that without the most extreme of RAW-twisting penny-pinching, you have to cover with class features to get it all.

It'd also be useful to have VoP get a fixed list that includes just the feats relevant to filling for its functions, not being limited wholly to [Exalted] feats nor wholly open-ended. Both for keeping from overpowered nonsense and for avoiding the eternal bane of trap options. In fact, having limited breadth and slight disadvantages in application would be quite sensible for VoP, being as how it stacks with a bunch of things that really don't need the buffs and that it's meant to be a cost.

It should be functional for pretty much every character archetype, but should only be worth considering as optimal for those who already are supposed to have little care for material wealth. So specific care to be a positive but not overwhelming proposition for Druid and a perfectly fine but not Must Have option for Monk needs taken.

[astrerouge]

There is an optional system on the spheres of power wiki i quite like that is quite nice to represent vow of poverty, amongst othe things: oaths

Basically, you can have oaths, restrictions on yourself like never speaking, always staying in a nation, never owning stuff over a certain worth and so on and they each offer oath points depending on their impact.

These points can then be traded for bonuses like bonus feats, weapon or armor enhancement bonuses, stats boosts or even effects from certain magic items.

Of course, it is pathfinder so the power/price ratio might have to be adjusted where it to be ported to 3.5 but still i find it quite thematic and interesting

[ThanatosZero]

In regards to martial weapons and armor, I remember that weapons and armor worn by outsiders like a Solar and a Marilith are actually a part of themselves and will dissolve upon death.
A character with VoP may gain gradually access to martial weapons and heavy armor due the fact they manifest them by the power of their very soul. This again adds flavour to incarnum.

[rel]

To my mind the functional vow of poverty needs to achieve the following:

self reliance - when the party wakes up in prison and the mage is worrying about their spellbook while the fighter is crying about their custom tooled aptitude kukri, the vow of poverty character should be able to shrug and take on the big bad's army at full effectiveness using only the jawbone of an ass

power - the vow of poverty costs two feats and comes with RP restrictions. the vow of poverty character shouldn't be equivalent to a character with a full xmas tree of magic items, they should be Significantly stronger

play-ability - the vow of poverty needs to be entirely functional by RaW. No rule zero, no special table agreements, the vow of poverty character should be able to complete an adventure without running into impassible vow restrictions.

uniqueness - the vow of poverty character should feel unique and different to moneybags the walking item shop. The abilities provided shouldn't map to magic items and should feel and function differently in play

As a final and optional point, an effort should be made to divorce the vow of poverty from the do-gooding and divine themes. Ideally, I should be able to make the joker as a vow of poverty character, channeling primal chaos by watching the world burn

[Telonius]

As a final and optional point, an effort should be made to divorce the vow of poverty from the do-gooding and divine themes. Ideally, I should be able to make the joker as a vow of poverty character, channeling primal chaos by watching the world burn

For what it's worth, I think that keeping the standard Vow of Poverty, as-is (doorknob silliness and all) works great as a Faustian pact (swapping Evil stuff and Vile feats for Good and Exalted). It seems perfectly in-line with how devils operate: give the mortal a bunch of options that sound great (bonus feats, extra stuff). But you're completely beholden to the devil (they get all your future earnings), and you lose everything and end up worse than before if you violate the fine print.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For what it's worth, I think that keeping the standard Vow of Poverty, as-is (doorknob silliness and all) works great as a Faustian pact (swapping Evil stuff and Vile feats for Good and Exalted). It seems perfectly in-line with how devils operate: give the mortal a bunch of options that sound great (bonus feats, extra stuff). But you're completely beholden to the devil (they get all your future earnings), and you lose everything and end up worse than before if you violate the fine print.Sounds suspiciously like working for a corporation.

Or getting married.

[Darg]

As I have stated a remarkable amount of times, I've gone over the numbers and VoP pretty often has more raw GP equivalence than WBL. The underlying problem is simple: VoP is one-size-fits-all, and Exalted feats do very little. It actually handles your base load very well, it's in the enormous breadth of layered situational defenses seen primarily in heavy-duty optimization. It handles the Big Six functions well enough to meet the game's internal math, but not nearly as well as players getting to magic-mart them just from Core, and the progression's all kinds of skewed.

The vast majority of that list of "necessary" magic items is specific to take-all-comers assurance as you start walking into Epic. Stun and Daze are such a pain to get immunity to because they are such extremely marginal conditions. Simply put, you don't actually need them because they very nearly never will show up. Miss Chance is solely a "stack every defense" function. That entire list is "but sometimes" or "stack every bonus" optimization. Sure, flight's pretty common, but it is both not absolute (Underdark, lol) and something an operational party is expected to have a spellcaster for.

You're supposed to see the Wizard and Cleric be covering the bulk of this for the party, either as pre-emptive buff spells or undoing the effect afterwards, not handle all of this internally on every character. The game is designed to be played in a party, and different classes are supposed to have different roles. Consequently, Vow of Poverty could never have been printed, and should never be reworked, to actually do all of these things as locked-in guarantees.

Because the vast majority of what's "missing" is "but sometimes", and all of it is handled by one class or another. VoP Druid can run into this issue when you look at the combat math as is, because even at 6th level they've got +7 AC over what is already an entirely viable statline where normally getting bonuses into Wild Shape demands some hefty surcharges, and Druids can deal with the vast majority of the "necessary" utilities as one of the casters who's job is to be dealing with those things.

Consequently, the only solution that makes sense is to make better Exalted feats, stripping down some existing edge-case answers for more feat power budget and the table space to fully handle basic numeric requirements on time. Then have the answers specifically require going deep enough to end up being limited in how many you can take. Because normal characters don't get to do all of this at once with items. Actual WBL doesn't work out for that without the most extreme of RAW-twisting penny-pinching, you have to cover with class features to get it all.

It'd also be useful to have VoP get a fixed list that includes just the feats relevant to filling for its functions, not being limited wholly to [Exalted] feats nor wholly open-ended. Both for keeping from overpowered nonsense and for avoiding the eternal bane of trap options. In fact, having limited breadth and slight disadvantages in application would be quite sensible for VoP, being as how it stacks with a bunch of things that really don't need the buffs and that it's meant to be a cost.

It should be functional for pretty much every character archetype, but should only be worth considering as optimal for those who already are supposed to have little care for material wealth. So specific care to be a positive but not overwhelming proposition for Druid and a perfectly fine but not Must Have option for Monk needs taken.

Well said. Wish I could be so eloquent as to voice my thoughts on the matter, but you taking them pretty much out of my head is just as good.


To my mind the functional vow of poverty needs to achieve the following:

self reliance - when the party wakes up in prison and the mage is worrying about their spellbook while the fighter is crying about their custom tooled aptitude kukri, the vow of poverty character should be able to shrug and take on the big bad's army at full effectiveness using only the jawbone of an ass

power - the vow of poverty costs two feats and comes with RP restrictions. the vow of poverty character shouldn't be equivalent to a character with a full xmas tree of magic items, they should be Significantly stronger

play-ability - the vow of poverty needs to be entirely functional by RaW. No rule zero, no special table agreements, the vow of poverty character should be able to complete an adventure without running into impassible vow restrictions.

uniqueness - the vow of poverty character should feel unique and different to moneybags the walking item shop. The abilities provided shouldn't map to magic items and should feel and function differently in play

As a final and optional point, an effort should be made to divorce the vow of poverty from the do-gooding and divine themes. Ideally, I should be able to make the joker as a vow of poverty character, channeling primal chaos by watching the world burn

Power) I don't think it's reasonable to have VoP be stronger than full x-mas tree mode characters as what that means varies extremely between characters and classes. You'd need to create variations based on the classes used to make it anywhere near balanced.

Playability) The feat does work by RAW. It just depends on how you read the English language. Being reasonable, solves this problem pretty easily. It's quite obvious that the feat is not referring to doors, roads, or other such mundane "possessions" just because the word can be used to fit a wide application.

Uniqueness) A VoP holder is unique. While the abilities aren't unique in and of themselves, the playstyle and interaction with the world is definitely different from the typical adventurer.

You last point is easily doable as a houserule which is what any "fix" is going to be anyway. Really though, is a chaotic/evil character going to give away their wealth when you become more selfish the further from good you become?

[Morphic tide]

To my mind the functional vow of poverty needs to achieve the following:

self reliance - when the party wakes up in prison and the mage is worrying about their spellbook while the fighter is crying about their custom tooled aptitude kukri, the vow of poverty character should be able to shrug and take on the big bad's army at full effectiveness using only the jawbone of an ass
Healing feat tree building out from Stigmata, which is actually already a pretty decent bit of healing for pure feat access, plus the bog-standard Big Six functions VoP already good enough at. Then you have what you've decided to do with your Bonus Feats, which shouldn't be an all-encompassing toolbox. Of course, then you look to classes that might fill that toolbox the rest of the way (Sorcerer, Beguiler, Bard, etc) and things are liable to get nasty. And also classes with fully overlapping toolboxes possibly distending into t2 specialists.

Just normal optimization things, though, shouldn't be strictly better than just itemizing for the same outside the very firmly in-theme stuff like healing and protection against Undead.


power - the vow of poverty costs two feats and comes with RP restrictions. the vow of poverty character shouldn't be equivalent to a character with a full xmas tree of magic items, they should be Significantly stronger
Agreed, but within the context of being different power from what items tend to get you. You're giving up items, you shouldn't be getting to be better at all the same things as the Christmas Tree people. It shouldn't be much past the precedence for the value of a feat or two above the item cost, depending on if the Sacred Vow prerequisite is axed or not. Even if we specifically go out of our way to look at the most extreme outliers of feats as the comparison point.


play-ability - the vow of poverty needs to be entirely functional by RaW. No rule zero, no special table agreements, the vow of poverty character should be able to complete an adventure without running into impassible vow restrictions.
I disagree, but it should be a matter of sensible impassable scenarios. Stuff like running into a situation where you can't use an item to deal with a utility you can't handle internally, whether from being a gap in the feat set (a weakness in hauling loot is many kinds of fitting), or from being left unchosen due to opportunity costs. Not the madness of not being able to use doors, but a matter of the campaign natively asking for something you actually need expensive tools to deal with.


uniqueness - the vow of poverty character should feel unique and different to moneybags the walking item shop. The abilities provided shouldn't map to magic items and should feel and function differently in play
*coughs in Monk/Paladin pseudo-gestalt*


As a final and optional point, an effort should be made to divorce the vow of poverty from the do-gooding and divine themes. Ideally, I should be able to make the joker as a vow of poverty character, channeling primal chaos by watching the world burn
My opinion on this is making flavorful alternatives, where the [Vile] equivalent is based on how much you destroy rather than a mandate, the version sends your Meldshaping through the roof but allows Magic Items that work without slots, the [Wild] version allows you to become a murderbeast full-time while also upgrading Animal Companion scaling, then the Lawful version is just literally becoming the Christmas Tree and the Chaotic version is less a [I]disallowance and more the logistical issues of every choice having unpredictable particulars of how it is you get the bonuses. Sure, you get a natural attack, but what it is is and consequently which item slot it demands special care for is completely up in the air.

The one-size-fits-all version should be like Item Familiars or Pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression, an outright variant rule to make it so the Fighter's handling Great Wyrm dragons from truly and fully personal beatstickery, give or take functionally indestructible, visually impressive, but really just +1-+3 basic gear, like real Legendary Heroes. A +1 Returning Shocking Spear is little different from a bolt from Zeus to 80% or more of the population when thrown by a guy with 24 Strength, and +8 Natural Armor instead of the tricked-out Mithral Full Plate is similarly mechanically indistinguishable most of the time, but looks vastly more impressive to waltz around shrugging at Hydras in a toga.

[RandomPeasant]

Either it's ok for a party member to need assistance, or it's not ok at any point.

That is the literal definition of a false dichotomy.


WotC made the feat, not the player. The player just wants to play a flavorful character. There's just no reason to give a VoP holder access to every thing on the "necessity" list.

WotC made everything that makes Pun-Pun possible. Yet most people agree that it's a faux pas to show up with Pun-Pun at a random table. The reality is that, in a game as imbalanced as 3.5, not all content is appropriate for all games. No one has any difficulty with that premise when it's time to tell off the guy who happens to love polymorph any object or Incantatrix. Why is it that the Fighter can never be told "no"?

[hippo]

I can't help but feel if the game wasn't designed at least partially around casters buffing party members, a lot more buff spells would be Range: Personal.

While it's true 3E places a heavy reliance on magical gear (especially for mundanes) and VoP messes with that, it's not an unreasonable expectation that a certain amount of the party's spell pool will go on buffs each day, and not just for the casters themselves. At least IMHO.

While I do agree with that sentiment in gerneral, I don't think it applies to flight very well. At a certain level, flight becomes a very basic utility that almost every character can obtain by himself with limited effort. Locking your character out of those options by choice is crippling the whole party and should thus be avoided; therefore I do think that providing a way to aquire flight for a VoP-character is a valuable buff to VoP. Any character should be able to get utilities like flight (or equivalent substitutes), that are almost mandatory, in some way without relying on others. Buffs should be reserved for effects that either can not be obtained with a reasonable investment in items or are only needed situationally, making a permanent investment for them not worthwhile. If a build relies on others for "bread-and-butter"-effects the build is flawed.

Well, my take on VoP: I don't think you can fix it by adjusting it's effects across the board, because the impact of VoP varies from Class to Class. I view VoP as a broken concept, not just a broken feature: It tries to substitute a very flexible and broad progression system (items) with a very unflexible and narrow set of bonuses. Any broad fix has to address that issue somehow, creating other problems in the process - you'll either end up with items in disguise or with bonuses whose impact will vary wildly from one build to another. You might do better then the original VoP, which sucks for any build, but there is a very high chance that it will still be too weak (or too strong) for many builds.

I'd rather sit down with a Player that considers using it and homebrew something that suits his overall character concept then try to apply a "one size fits all"-fix. That's not as satisfying as fixing a fundamentally broken concept, but it is doable and that's good enough for me.

[Morphic tide]

I view VoP as a broken concept, not just a broken feature: It tries to substitute a very flexible and broad progression system (items) with a very unflexible and narrow set of bonuses. Any broad fix has to address that issue somehow, creating other problems in the process - you'll either end up with items in disguise or with bonuses whose impact will vary wildly from one build to another. You might do better then the original VoP, which sucks for any build, but there is a very high chance that it will still be too weak (or too strong) for many builds.
I mean, VoP's framework does have a perfectly valid way of handling variety... It's just that Exalted feats are terrible. You don't even have to make that many more, you largely just need the existing ones to do their freaking jobs. Four of the six restrictive Vows are just partial save bonuses, and Sacred Vow is literally half the benefit of a rather large feat group. The list has two feats for replacing item charges with Turn Undead uses with a metamagic thrown on, that are themselves both just Good-aligned damage metamagics that reduce collateral, but one gets an extra bump when used against Evil outsiders while halving damage vs. Neutral and shutting it off fully for Good and the other makes half the damage typeless but only dealt to Nongood.

Stigmata lets you trade Constitution for health, while Hands of a Healer +2's a Paladin's Lay on Hands. There's four Santify effects that do the exact same thing in slightly different conditions: +1 damage to Evil creatures, raised to +1d4 against Outsiders or Undead that are Evil, and it counts as Good-aligned for DR. Oh, and the Ki Strike and Martial Weapon ones take 15 Charisma, while the Natural Attack and Align Weapon ones don't have any ability score requirement. Of them, only Sanctify Ki Strike has any follow-up in Holy Ki Strike, which gives a further 2d6 damage to all Evil creatures.

Then we have a separate feat for each of Special Mounts, Familiars, Animal Companions, and Wild Shape, with the first two adding specifically and only the Celestial template to the normal options, while the latter gives a small specific list of Magical Beasts that's the same for both as well as the Celestial template on the normal options. And separate feats for improving Smite, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, Rage, Wild Empathy, Stunning Fist, Divine Grace, Turn Undead, and Bardic Music, in addition to those already mentioned.

It's ridden with permutations and class-specific effects with liberally-applied ability score minimums. But VoP gives you ten picks of them so there is the space, assuming you took it at 1st-level because for some reason the feats aren't retroactive like virtually every other thing that scales by character level in the game, including the rest of Vow of Poverty. It's not like you get to keep the items you already have. And, importantly, vanishingly little of it gives any benefit whatsoever against Neutral creatures. The Ultimate Evil Slaying Specialist is just as screwed the moment it's revealed the Lich has Constructs as their final layer of defense instead of the entire campaign segment being valid Smite targets. Largely the same for an Evil Druid beginning the Bear spam.

[Thurbane]

What exactly are the other exalted feats beyond BoED? Six in Champions of Valor, several of which are mutually exclusive due to group/deity reqs.

There's literally no others, is there? Did Dragon print any?

[pabelfly]

What exactly are the other exalted feats beyond BoED? Six in Champions of Valor, several of which are mutually exclusive due to group/deity reqs.

There's literally no others, is there? Did Dragon print any?

I only found Purify Summoning, which gives summoned creatures the good subtype.

[Tzardok]

There are two in Player's Guide to Faerûn, in the appendix. One of them (Gift of Insight, I think) allows you to take a Free Action to determine wether any given action will have a negative effect on your alignment (similiar to that prayerscroll magic item).
The other is called Llira's blessing and grants +2 on Escape Artist, +2 on saves against any effect that Freedom of Mobility protects against and an additional save against those effects.

[Aquillion]

I would completely redesign it from the ground up. There's nothing interesting or salvageable in the current implementation.

My thoughts:

1. The vow restricts you from benefiting from wealth, property you own, or valuable items, perhaps with a few limited exceptions.

2. You gain the ability to sacrifice wealth in some way (donating it, destroying it, etc) and get benefits based on the total value of wealth sacrificed in this way, which you essentially buy from a list. Wealth has to be something you could reasonably have claimed and productively used or sold for it to count - you can't eg. smash a giant idol that you had no way of taking with you, since you never really had it and are therefore not "sacrificing" it.

3. The benefits shouldn't be too similar to magic items, but they do roughly include the essential things you'd normally have to use items for; generally speaking you get a bit less, and more limited options, in exchange for the value of never having to worry about losing them, some flexibility in terms of no longer having item slots, and guaranteed accessibility to the entire list.

4. If you break your vow somehow you lose the benefits temporarily. You can't lose it permanently (it's just not something that makes for an interesting story), though severe and deliberate violations might require an atonement spell.