Build Help: Hobgoblin (Feywild) Tactician

[Khrysaes]

So,

I will be playing a new character in a little more than a week. The DM is allowing UA and homebrew that is not game-breaking, so with permission.

That said:

We are starting at level 7 and even before the Feywild hobgoblin came out, when UA73 - 2020 Feats came out, with Tandem Tactician, I had thought about combining it with Mastermind Rogue. For reference, I never got to play this character.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616459-Mastermind-Rogue-build

Now, I am not the only one who had this thought.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25039854&postcount=1108

So I am starting at level 7, and was thinking:
Feywild Hobgoblin
17 Dex, 14 Con, 15 wis, whatever else
4 fighter Battlemaster, 3 rogue Mastermind.
Dueling Fighting Style, Rapier and Shield
Tandem Tactician Feat

Is there any way to make this better at level 7?
Or, should I take Fighter 5 or rogue 4 at level 8? Level 9? Level 10(fighter 6?)
Any thoughts?

[Sorinth]

I'd probably go Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 and wait until the next level up for Mastermind. The Extra Attack is going to be more useful then the range boost from Mastermind. This is especially true if you plan on using Maneuvering Attack.

[Unoriginal]

I'd probably go Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 and wait until the next level up for Mastermind. The Extra Attack is going to be more useful then the range boost from Mastermind. This is especially true if you plan on using Maneuvering Attack.

I think OP wants to focus on the "use your action to help others" concept, though

I agree that which manoeuvres OP wants to use is an important factor in deciding this build, however. OP, which manoeuvres do you want to have/use?

[Sorinth]

I think OP wants to focus on the "use your action to help others" concept, though

I agree that which manoeuvres OP wants to use is an important factor in deciding this build, however. OP, which manoeuvres do you want to have/use?

The feat gives BA-Help, so they will still be able to action Attack, BA help two allies. The difference is the extra rogue level increases the range from 15ft (From feat) to 40ft. Getting that 40ft range is obviously useful but most cases I would expect the player to be targeting an enemy within the 15ft range anyways since they are going Rapier and Shield.

[Zhorn]

Plus how long OP will be sitting on lv7 would be a pretty big factor.
If it were levelling up from lv1, you wold be trying to hit Mastermind 3 before anything else, being the Bonus Action ranged Help with the Fey Hobgoblin is the primary gimmick.
I agree extra attack is really good, but the flavour being what it is; having to wat till lv8 for that gimmick to come online won't be as fun.

[Sorinth]

Plus how long OP will be sitting on lv7 would be a pretty big factor.
If it were levelling up from lv1, you wold be trying to hit Mastermind 3 before anything else, being the Bonus Action ranged Help with the Fey Hobgoblin is the primary gimmick.
I agree extra attack is really good, but the flavour being what it is; having to wat till lv8 for that gimmick to come online won't be as fun.

The BA Help with Fey Hobgoblin works without any levels of Rogue since the feat mentioned makes Help a BA and increases the range to 15ft.

Master mind is just changing that 15ft to 40ft. Useful but not likely to be build defining unless the player was intending to be staying at range themselves which doesn't appear to be the case.

[Man_Over_Game]

The BA Help with Fey Hobgoblin works without any levels of Rogue since the feat mentioned makes Help a BA and increases the range to 15ft.

Master mind is just changing that 15ft to 40ft. Useful but not likely to be build defining unless the player was intending to be staying at range themselves which doesn't appear to be the case.

Agreed. I'd get the feat or Mastermind but not both.

[LordShade]

This is a super interesting concept for an Expert Sidekick (which already gets to add Inspiration dice to the Help action at no resource cost).

Thanks for posting.

Edit, to elaborate...

The Expert gets:

Level 1 - Help as a bonus action
Level 6 - Help 30' range, and +2d6 damage if the Expert succeeds on an attack against the same target the Helped ally is attacking
Level 11 - free +1d6 Inspiration to the d20 roll that is receiving the Help; if an attack roll, can choose to substitute +1d6 damage instead
Level 20 - Inspiration dice increase to 2d6

So a maxed out Expert would get...

40' Help on two allies, +2d6 to the attack or damage roll, +1d6+prof HP to your two allies, OR +10 movement, OR the target receives disadvantage on the next attack roll

Pretty nice overall. The Expert's Inspiration can't help with saves like a bard, but on the flip side is unlimited use and already more efficient than Bardic Inspiration from an action economy perspective (since the Expert combines Help + Inspiration into a single bonus action, whereas a Bard or Mastermind would have to apply them separately). Multiplying this effect with Tandem Tactician now gives 4x the effect from an action economy perspective.

And since this build can also use the Help action as a normal action, it can provide the bonus to four party members, right? And if the Hobgoblin were to use the Ready action to hold its Standard Action Help on a preset condition, it could give the Help action a second time in a turn to a single party member, right? Say a PC fighter that has Extra Attack, takes one swing with Help+Inspiration, and then the Hobgoblin's Readied Help triggers and the fighter gets helped on the second attack as well? Does this work?

[Khrysaes]

Since I don't want to reply multiple times with quotes.

Thinking about it, I agree that the Extra attack is more immediately useful than the +25ft for the help action since the feat will do most of the heavy lifting.

That said, If going so heavy into rogue immediately was for that extra reach, then I could do 6 fighter, start with 2 feats, and 1 rogue. I do lose cunning action, but I still have my Bonus Action help. So while I lose versatility I am not losing an action.

Alternatively, I was talking to my DM and thinking about taking the "Ranger with no spells" option from WAY back at the beginning of UA, where they get maneuvers instead. 2 levels gets 2 maneuvers and 4d8 dice, and other goodies.

[DaFlipp]

Not enough of a 5e pro to give much optimization advice, but just wanted to chime in that I'm currently playing a Battlemaster with Tandem Tactician and it's very fun to be able to toss Advantage left and right to your buddies. Personally, instead of going Dueling, I went Defense. He's still rapier-and-shield most of the time, but I find it easier to switch back and forth between short- and long-range as the situation demands if I don't feel like I'm "wasting" my fighting style every time I pick up a longbow.

Of course, our table is very lax about item interactions (people can generally switch from one weapon to another *and* don/doff their shield without issue), your table might be a bit stricter about switching between ranged and melee, making more sense to specialize further.