Should War Clerics get Smite spells?

[Saelethil]

That’s it. What do y’all think?
Should War Clerics have access to a couple of Smite spells?

[Seekergeek]

There was an older UA prior to Xanathar's guide that added wrathful and branding smite to the base cleric list. My table still plays with those adds and it hasn't hurt anything by any means. Bonus action competes with your spiritual weapon and yields worse results typically, not to mention that a war cleric is already using his bonus action for an extra weapon attack from time to time, so I'd say go for it. Shouldn't break anything.

[PhantomSoul]

There was an older UA prior to Xanathar's guide that added wrathful and branding smite to the base cleric list. My table still plays with those adds and it hasn't hurt anything by any means. Bonus action competes with your spiritual weapon and yields worse results typically, not to mention that a war cleric is already using his bonus action for an extra weapon attack from time to time, so I'd say go for it. Shouldn't break anything.

The smite Spells are also Concentration, which is a big issue for use!

[stoutstien]

They should get extra attack.
**Ducks under desk**

[Kuulvheysoon]

They should get extra attack.
**Ducks under desk**

I'm down for it. Clerics need all the help that they can get trying to match the Monk's sheer DPS and versatility. Give 'em Divine Smite while we're at it.

[PhantomSoul]

I'm down for it. Clerics need all the help that they can get trying to match the Monk's sheer DPS and versatility. Give 'em Divine Smite while we're at it.

I mean, who thematically should smite if not the cleric?
(I don't even know if that should be blue or not... xD)

[stoutstien]

I'm down for it. Clerics need all the help that they can get trying to match the Monk's sheer DPS and versatility. Give 'em Divine Smite while we're at it.

I know this is blue text but in the end giving them extra attack is a side grade at best and being the most weapon focused caster without a direct path to extra attack as one of their subclass options. If it breaks the game to have clerics with extra attack then Bladesinger/sword bards should be destroying games which isn't the case.

As for monks your actual correct that clerics can't keeps up with their versatility. Both are hearty but mobility holds back the cleric more often than players realize. We are just very good at colouring in out experiences in certain shades.

[Corran]

They should get extra attack.
**Ducks under desk**
This is what I came here to write.

=====================

Smite spells on top of that wouldn't be too bad. I'd prefer something different, something new that they wouldn't have to borrow from another class, but smite spells wouldn't be bad, on top of extra attack. Weapon using clerics need help, and relying on scagtrips gets old really fast.

[RogueJK]

They should get extra attack.
**Ducks under desk**

Agreed. Or at very least remove the WISMOD/day limit on their BA attack, starting at 5th level.


I think War Clerics getting the Smite spells would be fine. As it is, Smite spells don't tend to see as much use with Paladins anyway (with a few exceptions, like Wrathful Smite on a Conquest Paladin), since simply using the spell slot for a standard Divine Smite is almost always the better option that doesn't cost your BA, doesn't interfere with Concentration, and doesn't run the risk of being disrupted and wasting the slot. So it'd be nice for them to have a chance to shine more often.

But even on a War Cleric, they wouldn't see a whole ton of use, because Clerics tend to have better things to Concentrate on anyway, and Spiritual Weapon is generally going to be a better use for your Bonus Actions anyway.

[Mastikator]

They should get extra attack.
**Ducks under desk**
Yeah but should they get it with the level 6 or 8 Divine Domain feature?

[stoutstien]

Yeah but should they get it with the level 6 or 8 Divine Domain feature?

Lv6 would work. Shift the second CD down to 2 and reword it to apply to anyone

[JackPhoenix]

I know this is blue text but in the end giving them extra attack is a side grade at best and clerics are the only full casters without a direct path to extra attack as one of their subclass options.

Druids and sorcerers say hi. So half of the full caster classes.

[Saelethil]

Druids and sorcerers say hi. So half of the full caster classes.

Well, Moon Druids can make 2 attacks in a round pretty early through their wildshape I guess..? I think @stoutstien forgot about sorcerers unless they're considering a UA I'm not aware of. Although I wouldn't mind giving one to Draconic.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, Moon Druids can make 2 attacks in a round pretty early through their wildshape I guess..? I think @stoutstien forgot about sorcerers unless they're considering a UA I'm not aware of. Although I wouldn't mind giving one to Draconic.

Yeah, but you can't cast and Extra Attack as a druid, which is I think the point that's trying to be made. You can't really count as a gish if your spellcasting is cut off.

I had honestly thought that Stone Sorcerer had gotten Extra Attack (though Stone Aegis is a pseudo-Extra Attack, I guess?), but when I went to check, it turns out that they didn't. So I guess that no Official or UA sorceror gets it. Which is a shame - I'd prefer to see it on them than Wizard (via Bladesinger).

[Hytheter]

I know this is blue text but in the end giving them extra attack is a side grade at best and clerics are the only full casters without a direct path to extra attack as one of their subclass options.

I know Sorcerers have their limitations but excluding them from the list of full casters is just rude. :smallamused:

[Thunderous Mojo]

Yeah but should they get it with the level 6 or 8 Divine Domain feature?

I'm going to Zag from Stoutstein, and opine that I would make Extra Attack the 8th level portion of Divine Smite, and move the extra 1d8 damage to 14th level, and have it apply to the Extra Attack as well as on other Attack on the same turn.

This way the War Cleric maintains it's own identity and subclass progression.

Just my opinion, of course, and the thought that leaped to mind.

[Gtdead]

I'd say that every cleric should get them. War would already be 50% better at using them compared to other domains due to War Priest and can use the CD if the occasion arises.

IMO cleric list needs a major rework or at least a serious effort to add something to it. From all the books released, Cleric got 12 new spells (cantrips included), the least of all other casters. Melee oriented domains still don't have native access to BB and GFB..

[Kane0]

Sure why not. Rangers get a smite spell now, Hexblades have had four for ages, plus clerics are light on melee and heavy on concentration already.

[stoutstien]

Yeah, but you can't cast and Extra Attack as a druid, which is I think the point that's trying to be made. You can't really count as a gish if your spellcasting is cut off.

I had honestly thought that Stone Sorcerer had gotten Extra Attack (though Stone Aegis is a pseudo-Extra Attack, I guess?), but when I went to check, it turns out that they didn't. So I guess that no Official or UA sorceror gets it. Which is a shame - I'd prefer to see it on them than Wizard (via Bladesinger).

For some reason I also thought stone sorcerer had extra attack. Either way it's not like putting extra attack on any full casters has done much.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, Moon Druids can make 2 attacks in a round pretty early through their wildshape I guess..? I think @stoutstien forgot about sorcerers unless they're considering a UA I'm not aware of. Although I wouldn't mind giving one to Draconic.

Multiattack is not the same thing as extra attack, because it limits you to specific options. I think that's why druid will never get Extra Attack: WotC doesn't want them to use the most effective options from the wildshape forms repeatedly instead of mixing stronger and weaker attacks, like most multiattack beast do.


For some reason I also thought stone sorcerer had extra attack. Either way it's not like putting extra attack on any full casters has done much.

Even if it had, stone sorcerer doesn't exist outside UA.

[stoutstien]

Multiattack is not the same thing as extra attack, because it limits you to specific options. I think that's why druid will never get Extra Attack: WotC doesn't want them to use the most effective options from the wildshape forms repeatedly instead of mixing stronger and weaker attacks, like most multiattack beast do.



Even if it had, stone sorcerer doesn't exist outside UA.

Ok I recant my statement. Just under half of the full casters have direct excess to extra attack without upsetting anything. Half depending on how you view warlocks.

[Mach T-Rex]

I had honestly thought that Stone Sorcerer had gotten Extra Attack (though Stone Aegis is a pseudo-Extra Attack, I guess?), but when I went to check, it turns out that they didn't. So I guess that no Official or UA sorceror gets it. Which is a shame - I'd prefer to see it on them than Wizard (via Bladesinger).

Nice thing about any sorcerer though is they can booming blade twice in a turn with quicken. Kinda makes up for not having any extra attacks.

[Gignere]

Nice thing about any sorcerer though is they can booming blade twice in a turn with quicken. Kinda makes up for not having any extra attacks.

The sorcerer UA that had extra attack was favored soul? That was eventually replaced with the Divine soul when it was released and extra attack was removed.

With haste and quicken plus extra attack a sorcerer with extra attack is hitting like a level 20 fighter at around level 6. Noway they can allow that.

[JNAProductions]

Multiattack is not the same thing as extra attack, because it limits you to specific options. I think that's why druid will never get Extra Attack: WotC doesn't want them to use the most effective options from the wildshape forms repeatedly instead of mixing stronger and weaker attacks, like most multiattack beast do.

But if it was a subclass feature, you couldn't combine it with Moon Druid WIldshape.

Without Moon Druid, as a reminder, you're limited to CR 1/4 till level four, where it jumps to CR 1/2 till level eight, where it finally hits CR 1.

Not exactly OP.

[tKUUNK]

I'm down for it. Clerics need all the help that they can get trying to match the Monk's sheer DPS and versatility. Give 'em Divine Smite while we're at it.

"...trying to match the Monk's sheer DPS..." I see what ya did there. genius. :D

to the OP: I can't see you breaking anything by giving clerics smite spells. Adds more flavor than power, imo.

[sambojin]

But if it was a subclass feature, you couldn't combine it with Moon Druid WIldshape.

Without Moon Druid, as a reminder, you're limited to CR 1/4 till level four, where it jumps to CR 1/2 till level eight, where it finally hits CR 1.

Not exactly OP.

Until you get your hands on or reskin something like a Frilled Deathspitter at lvl4, which has 3x Multiattack, and a ranged attack (which would be pretty good with Extra Attack for pewpew). Dire Skunk reskin, for non-dino, non-Ixalan world's ftw.

Even a Warhorse, Cow or Jaculi can pump out some reasonable DPR with Extra Attack, and stuff like Constrictor Snakes and Crocodiles get a lot more reliable with restrain-on-hit with two goes of it landing (the first possibly being at advantage if you WS in a familiar for help actions). Doesn't have to be exotic, Druids get plenty of normal good-stuff that you can take for granted that they've seen at some point in their life

Extra attack can make them, well, not OP, but certainly better than they were before. Little Wildshape isn't nearly as bad as people seem to think it is at lvl2-5. Free HP and big attacks with riders is never a bad thing, considering it's class, not sub-class based. All druids can do some pretty great melee contributions at lvls2-5 if they want to. They're awesome casters from that point on, but never underestimate what they can do in combat up until the lvl3 spells kick-in and slots will last your entire day easily.

(Oh, and they get an "extra attack" as a concentration spell at lvl3 through Summon Beast, it just does more than that too. Stars and Wildfire also get bonus/summon/ mini-extra-ranged-attack through wildshape charges. So that'd be 5 attacks per round as a Frilled Deathspitter at *level four*, even if it does cost you both wildshape charges and a lvl2 spell slot to do it. I think druids are covered without proper Extra Attack for now :) )

((I'm now starting to look at Summon Beast/Fey as "I cast: Unoptimized Monk!"
Would you ever use a level 8 spell slot for an AC20, 80HP, teleporting, 4 attack, +10to-hit 1d6+11+d6(force) damage mini-me-Monk? Ummm... Maybe. If you were bored. Or needed someone smart and charismatic in the party to talk too. They could even ride around on your shoulders if you wanted, just so you could do melee while being hilarious. Lol))


(((And to answer the original post: yeah, sure, why not? More options that would interfere with other things you could be doing with your bonus/action/concentration/slots isn't going to hurt anything. I'd even put them on the list for all Clerics, and give them to War as free preps, just so people can vary up their spell loadout and combat style from time-to-time if they want. One attack, but with options, sounds fun, and would let you characterize yourself a bit better by what you do/prep each day, rather than being so vanilla-listy with touch of domain/CD flavouring.
It's not like Pallies use them all that much, even though they're sometimes the better option, because divine-smite works so well and requires no thought or planning.
More Cleric fun is good, so why not?)))