Building Some NPCs

[Lukalaly]

I'm running a gestalt game (or will be, stopped at the moment) and in my downtime, want to make actual stats for some of the characters my players will/have already met. Normally I would just do this myself, since I like making characters, but I don't have much experience with making gestalt characters. So I'm asking for a bit of help from the playground.

Currently I have a partially built divine bard//cleric (nothing concrete but I've got an idea), a not at all built truenamer//artificer (because I hate myself), a domovoi with no build in mind at all, and a wildshape ranger//??? (maybe something from ToB to use maneuvers in wildshape, if that works)

The divine bard//cleric is focusing more on the bard side, using inspire and other buffs to be a cheerleader, and taking cleric mostly for other buffs. Level 11
The truenamer//artificer is focusing more on the truenamer side, but I know that artificer is going to be pulling the weight. Level 8
No build in mind for the domovoi, and I'm also not sure how it's two levels of fey would work in gestalt. Would the first two levels be fey 2//fey 2, or would it be fey 2//class levels 2? Not really expecting anything for this one, but I figured I'd put him on there anyway. Level 6
The wildshape ranger//??? is obviously gonna be focused on wildshaping. If I do go the ToB route, which now that I'm thinking about it is very tempting, I would just use claws and bites or whatever natural attack they get for the maneuvers they use. Also level 6

Also, I remember seeing some sort of combined creature template? Something that could be more than one creature at a time, but shoved into one body, or taking parts of individual creatures and "stitching" them together, literally or otherwise. I found symbiotic, but that's not really my preferred method of making the npc I'm making (with homebrew being even less preferred, since I want my players to be able to guess the class/race of every npc they meet). I know that grafts are a thing, but I don't remember where they're from nor what most of them actually do.

Any input on any of this would be incredibly appreciated. Even just "here's a feat/magic item that might be good" or "here's a prc that's interesting." Items that would normally be out of the price range of characters that level are also still appreciated (partially because they're all friends with the artificer).

[Maat Mons]

Personally, I find Inspire Courage to be the only really compelling Bardic Music ability. You can get Inspire Courage with Paladin levels and the From Smite to Song feat. I'd give that some consideration. You get a stronger chassis and Cha to saves, which can be converted into Wis to saves via the Serenity feat.

Cloistered Cleric // Paladin gets you full strength Inspire Courage (albeit fewer times per day), 6+Int skill points, full base attack bonus, d10 hit dice, and full proficiencies. Oh, and full casting. But I mean, it's gestalt. Of course you're getting full casting.

If you go the Cloistered Cleric // Paladin route, you'll want to trade away one of the instances of Turn Undead for something else. I'm fond of Aura of Sanctity (Dragon 349, p93), which gives you immunity to Death effects. It goes well with Paladin of Freedom, which gives immunity to Compulsion effects.

If you stick with Bard, It probably makes sense to use regular, non-cloistered Cleric.



I can't give you any advice on Truenamer, since I've never actually read the class.



I'm not sure about Wild Shape Ranger in gestalt. It's Wild Shape isn't as good as a Druid's Wild Shape. And if you're looking to combine Wild Shape with a Tome of Battle class, Warblade // Druid has less overlap than Warblade // Ranger.

But I guess if you're planning to go into Master of Many forms, Ranger is as good a base as any. Not sure what that would wind up looking like though. Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 1 // Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 4? Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 1 // Fighter 4 / Warblade 2? Replace Fighter with Feat Rogue?



The interaction between gestalt and LA/RHD is undefined. Different DMs implement it in different ways.

[pabelfly]

For your Truenamer/Artificer, I don't know much about Artificer, but I have played a few Truenamer characters. I presume you're doing a standard caster build.

Build should look roughly like this:
1) Skill Focus Truespeak
3) Mortalbane
6) Extend Utterance
9) Quicken Utterance

Item Familiar is worth considering for 3rd but I'm not a fan.

With 4 + INT skill points, your character is going to be the Knowledge guy. Maybe skills in concentration.

Gear - medium or heavy armor (doesn't interfere with Truespeak but makes you slow), custom ring of Truespeak, Amulet of Silver Tongue, intelligence item, assorted other Big Six items. Your priority is pumping that Truespeak check. You might also be a member of the Paragnostic Assembly to get another +5 or +10 to Truespeak.

If the character is Evil, pump Knowledge Religion and get into daily sacrifices. You should get +15 to this from your utterances even before you get into skills or class abilities.

You haven't mentioned race but if it's humanoid consider human (bonus feat) or Illumian for bonuses to INT and DEX checks.

Stats - similar to Wizard. INT for Truespeak, DEX for Initiative, some CON, CHA if you want to do save throw utterances (an option but not necessary). Maybe some WIS for your Will Save.

Any other questions, check out the handbook by Zaq, which is invaluable, but I be happy to try answer questions.

[Lukalaly]

For your Truenamer/Artificer, I don't know much about Artificer, but I have played a few Truenamer characters. I presume you're doing a standard caster build.

Build should look roughly like this:
1) Skill Focus Truespeak
3) Mortalbane
6) Extend Utterance
9) Quicken Utterance

Item Familiar is worth considering for 3rd but I'm not a fan.
Sounds pretty solid, I may go for a flaw get both mortalbane and item familiar. I'm also not normally a fan of item familiar, but given the artificer gestalt I think it works nicely with the fluff, along with not really needing to worry about it being broken/stolen unless my players want to be mean. So only a little less than if I were actually playing.

With 4 + INT skill points, your character is going to be the Knowledge guy. Maybe skills in concentration.
That's why I went for truenamer. Besides, not like there's much else to put the ranks into.

Gear - medium or heavy armor (doesn't interfere with Truespeak but makes you slow), custom ring of Truespeak, Amulet of Silver Tongue, intelligence item, assorted other Big Six items. Your priority is pumping that Truespeak check. You might also be a member of the Paragnostic Assembly to get another +5 or +10 to Truespeak.
Hmm. As much as heavy armor would probably be a bit more optimal, it really doesn't...feel like truenamer, at least to me. All the rest sound good though. What do you mean by "custom ring of truespeak" though? The regular "bonus squared x 100" cost in the creating magic items table? I assume so, but no harm asking.

If the character is Evil, pump Knowledge Religion and get into daily sacrifices. You should get +15 to this from your utterances even before you get into skills or class abilities.
You haven't mentioned race but if it's humanoid consider human (bonus feat) or Illumian for bonuses to INT and DEX checks.
Stats - similar to Wizard. INT for Truespeak, DEX for Initiative, some CON, CHA if you want to do save throw utterances (an option but not necessary). Maybe some WIS for your Will Save.
Yeah, the reason I didn't say races is because I have those already, and for whatever reason I thought that it wouldn't matter much. Also, the races are...not exactly optimal. Not taking an int penalty on primary stats or anything, but I'm using a drow for the divine bard//cleric, for instance. Just not really using a race that's actively beneficial.


Any other questions, check out the handbook by Zaq, which is invaluable, but I be happy to try answer questions.
Much appreciated! I already read through the handbook and...well, I'm probably gonna have to read it again. I think what you said along with the handbook is probably gonna be enough though.



Paladin and cloistered cleric stuff
I had considered that, though more for one of my players. I honestly think that's a pretty good idea.

I'm not sure about Wild Shape Ranger in gestalt. It's Wild Shape isn't as good as a Druid's Wild Shape. And if you're looking to combine Wild Shape with a Tome of Battle class, Warblade // Druid has less overlap than Warblade // Ranger.
I was initially going to use druid as the base, but when I realized I was only going to be using the wildshape, I figured I would just go wildshape ranger instead. Plus I want this guy to not be a full caster.

But I guess if you're planning to go into Master of Many forms, Ranger is as good a base as any. Not sure what that would wind up looking like though. Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 1 // Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 4? Wild Shape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 1 // Fighter 4 / Warblade 2? Replace Fighter with Feat Rogue?
I completely forgot about feat rogue! Question about the fast movement from wsr/barbarian, would they stack? And also apply in wildshape? I assume they would work in wildshape, but I'm kinda used to 5e wildshaping where you basically just put your character sheet under the table for a bit lol. If they stack (which I assume they do, given that you suggested it) then I'm definitely gonna go with the barb level. (Also yeah, Master of Many Forms is probably my favorite prc in the game, especially in gestalt. Once I had a gm let me cheese my way into it early with that one template that gives you wildshaping as a druid but only for specific animals, can't remember the name of it rn, and I was turning into dragons by like level 12. Good times.)


The interaction between gestalt and LA/RHD is undefined. Different DMs implement it in different ways.
Ugh, that's exactly what I wasn't hoping for. Makes sense though. I think I'll split the first level into the two fey hd, and then from there start taking actual classes. Hmmm. Swordsage//Rogue is probably pretty easy. There any more...interesting combos I could go with? I guess monk technically exists but...monk.

Thanks very much to both of you! That's pretty much the truenamer done, and a good amount of progress with the rest. That's probably enough for me to finish them up in a couple hours each, but if anyone has any more suggestions that would be much appreciated!

[pabelfly]

Sounds pretty solid, I may go for a flaw get both mortalbane and item familiar. I'm also not normally a fan of item familiar, but given the artificer gestalt I think it works nicely with the fluff, along with not really needing to worry about it being broken/stolen unless my players want to be mean. So only a little less than if I were actually playing.

That's why I went for truenamer. Besides, not like there's much else to put the ranks into.

Hmm. As much as heavy armor would probably be a bit more optimal, it really doesn't...feel like truenamer, at least to me. All the rest sound good though. What do you mean by "custom ring of truespeak" though? The regular "bonus squared x 100" cost in the creating magic items table? I assume so, but no harm asking.

Yeah, the reason I didn't say races is because I have those already, and for whatever reason I thought that it wouldn't matter much. Also, the races are...not exactly optimal. Not taking an int penalty on primary stats or anything, but I'm using a drow for the divine bard//cleric, for instance. Just not really using a race that's actively beneficial.

Much appreciated! I already read through the handbook and...well, I'm probably gonna have to read it again. I think what you said along with the handbook is probably gonna be enough though.

You can also take feats, etc to get more class skills if they suit the character. I'd also consider "Improved Initiative" and "Knowledge Devotion" (and skill trick Collector of Stories).

Item familiar helps but it's not a necessity if you don't want it. Quick calc based on having 27K gold at level 8:

5 - Intelligence
11 - Ranks
3 - Skill Focus
10 - Custom Competence Item
10 - Amulet of Silver Tongue
5 - Paragnostic member bonus

That's a check of 42 against 15 + 2 x 8 (CR), and you still have around 5K for other assorted gear. Item Familiar will (admittedly) give you a pretty nice additional bonus and when you reach level 9, you'll be able to start the day with 100% quickened utterances, but you'll do okay without it.

If you don't like heavy armor, you can go light or medium and pump DEX.

Good luck with the characters, interested to hear how your Truenamer/Artificer turns out.

[Maat Mons]

The fast movement would definitely still apply when Wild Shaped. But I don't believe that Fast Movement from Barbarian stacks with the Fast Movement from Wild Shape Range, since it's "as Barbarian." I was actually figuring on using Spirit Lion Totem to exchange the Barbarian's Fast Movement for Pounce. Some of your animal forms would already have Pounce, but getting it regardless of form seems like it would be nice. And getting Rage (or Whirling Frenzy) isn't bad either.

I like the idea of a Drow cheerleader (https://www.deviantart.com/drow-of-darkness/art/You-can-do-it-544481372).

[Lukalaly]

The fast movement would definitely still apply when Wild Shaped. But I don't believe that Fast Movement from Barbarian stacks with the Fast Movement from Wild Shape Range, since it's "as Barbarian." I was actually figuring on using Spirit Lion Totem to exchange the Barbarian's Fast Movement for Pounce. Some of your animal forms would already have Pounce, but getting it regardless of form seems like it would be nice. And getting Rage (or Whirling Frenzy) isn't bad either.

I like the idea of a Drow cheerleader (https://www.deviantart.com/drow-of-darkness/art/You-can-do-it-544481372).

Ahhhhh yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, the rage is pretty nice, and fits the character (fairly standard snow goblin, but my players have never seen one so any goblin that's actually intimidating is gonna be pretty memorable). Normally I'd go whirling frenzy, but I'm not sure how the extra attack would work in wildshape. Just an extra attack with the primary natural weapon? Probably that, actually. Whirling is tempting again.

That drow is lovely, also. Not...quite what I'm going for, but definitely something I'll keep in mind. Too good to pass up.


Good luck with the characters, interested to hear how your Truenamer/Artificer turns out.

Thanks! Also, sorry for ignoring this thread for a bit. Been working on stats and didn't wanna post here again until I finished, but then I realized that would probably still be awhile. I'll post the finished sheets here once I'm done with them, provided I don't take so long that it would end up as a thread necro, lol.