Simulacrum and the Divine Soul

[RSP]

So noticed a couple of interesting interactions between the DS and Simulacrum (other classes/subclass might encounter these as well, I just thought of them in terms of the DS), and was curious what the Playground thought of them.

- a Simulacrum, RAW, recovers Sorc Points, just as any other Sorc would (same as a Simulacrum of a Monk would recover Ki Points). Sorc Points can be made into spell slots per Flexible Casting. Spell slots made in this way are not recovered spell slots but are their own separate slots (a Sorc can have full slots and then create new ones with SPs if they were so inclined), so, RAW, the Simulacrum’s inability to recover spell slots doesn’t impact this.

A level 20 Sorc regains 4 SPs each SR and so, a Simulacrum of that Sorc could, in theory, just keep adding 1st-5th level slots.

Note: this is different than a Wizard’s Arcane Recovery as that specifically “regains” spent spell slots, which a Simulacrum cannot do.

- Unless I’m missing something, RAW, a Simulacrum can be healed. Technically, they just have an additional means of recovering HPs (“If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains” doesn’t prevent gaining full HPs on a LR or magical healing - it’s just a statement of another way to get its HPs back). Do people play this as a restriction on healing? I assumed it was originally, but RAW, it doesn’t.

For those that play it as a restriction, how do you see class abilities like the DS’s Unearthly Recovery working with it? Seems Unearthly Recovery should still work even if Simulacrams can’t heal through normal means (as it is not a normal means). Other abilities, like Second Wind seem like they should work as well.

[Hytheter]

I suspect it to be a hilarious oversight but yeah, nothing prevents simulacra from being healed. They can even spend and regain hit dice, so the whole bit about magical herbs and stuff just seems like wasted ink.

[kazaryu]

So noticed a couple of interesting interactions between the DS and Simulacrum (other classes/subclass might encounter these as well, I just thought of them in terms of the DS), and was curious what the Playground thought of them.

- a Simulacrum, RAW, recovers Sorc Points, just as any other Sorc would (same as a Simulacrum of a Monk would recover Ki Points). Sorc Points can be made into spell slots per Flexible Casting. Spell slots made in this way are not recovered spell slots but are their own separate slots (a Sorc can have full slots and then create new ones with SPs if they were so inclined), so, RAW, the Simulacrum’s inability to recover spell slots doesn’t impact this.

A level 20 Sorc regains 4 SPs each SR and so, a Simulacrum of that Sorc could, in theory, just keep adding 1st-5th level slots.

Note: this is different than a Wizard’s Arcane Recovery as that specifically “regains” spent spell slots, which a Simulacrum cannot do.

- Unless I’m missing something, RAW, a Simulacrum can be healed. Technically, they just have an additional means of recovering HPs (“If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains” doesn’t prevent gaining full HPs on a LR or magical healing - it’s just a statement of another way to get its HPs back). Do people play this as a restriction on healing? I assumed it was originally, but RAW, it doesn’t.

For those that play it as a restriction, how do you see class abilities like the DS’s Unearthly Recovery working with it? Seems Unearthly Recovery should still work even if Simulacrams can’t heal through normal means (as it is not a normal means). Other abilities, like Second Wind seem like they should work as well. spell slots generated by sorc points disappear on a LR. so, yes, a simulacrum could use sorcery points to regain some spell slots, it can't fully recover them.

[RSP]

spell slots generated by sorc points disappear on a LR. so, yes, a simulacrum could use sorcery points to regain some spell slots, it can't fully recover them.

Not regaining, technically. And nothing says they (or anyone at any given time) needs to LR.

[Kvess]

The spell doesn’t specifically preclude other forms of healing, but I suspect a typical DM would rule that repairing the simulacrum is the only means of restoring its hitpoints. Consult your DM before you take the spell.

If they rule that the simulacrum can only be repaired, then Unearthly Recovery likely also wouldn’t be allowed. If they are more permissive then anything goes.

Getting a duplicate party member with limitations on healing and spell recovery is still an insane benefit from a Level 8 spell.

[Gignere]

The spell doesn’t specifically preclude other forms of healing, but I suspect a typical DM would rule that repairing the simulacrum is the only means of restoring its hitpoints. Consult your DM before you take the spell.

If they rule that the simulacrum can only be repaired, then Unearthly Recovery likely also wouldn’t be allowed. If they are more permissive then anything goes.

Getting a duplicate party member with limitations on healing and spell recovery is still an insane benefit from a Level 8 spell.

It’s actually a level 7 spell but only way a sorcerer can get access to simulacrum is via wish. So a 9th level spell slot cost.

[RSP]

The spell doesn’t specifically preclude other forms of healing, but I suspect a typical DM would rule that repairing the simulacrum is the only means of restoring its hitpoints. Consult your DM before you take the spell.

If they rule that the simulacrum can only be repaired, then Unearthly Recovery likely also wouldn’t be allowed. If they are more permissive then anything goes.

Getting a duplicate party member with limitations on healing and spell recovery is still an insane benefit from a Level 8 spell.

I see it as Specific over General. General rule is Simulacrums need to repair to recover HPs, but the UR (or Second Wind, etc.) are specific exceptions to that general rule.

For instance, if in the Monster Manual they had a section on Simulacrum, and gave the general rule for how they regain hit points, but then had a bunch of example stat blocks that included Second Wind or UR, I believe the sensible approach would be “oh these are specific exceptions to that general rule.”

Just my take but that’s how I see it.

[Mitchellnotes]

Mike Mearls at one point implied that there may be future errata that simulacrums wouldn't be able to recover any expended abilities (easiest way of doing this maybe just not allowing them to benefit from rests?), but that was in 2018 and that hasn't materialized so... it's probably good to go.

Perhaps even more broken is that a simulacrum of a warlock could get mystic arcanum back. A genie lock could wish a simulacrum of themselves that could recover it's ability to wish (and limited wish)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Mike Mearls at one point implied that there may be future errata that simulacrums wouldn't be able to recover any expended abilities (easiest way of doing this maybe just not allowing them to benefit from rests?), but that was in 2018 and that hasn't materialized so... it's probably good to go.

Perhaps even more broken is that a simulacrum of a warlock could get mystic arcanum back. A genie lock could wish a simulacrum of themselves that could recover it's ability to wish (and limited wish)

I run that implication as fact. Only way a sim can regain anything is the alchemical healing. Anything else with limited uses is one and done.

Plus it's an NPC under my control. With its own initiative. It will obey orders, but won't innovate or try anything clever. So close coordination isn't guaranteed. I'll do my best to follow the spirit of the commands, but micro management isn't going to happen without you spending your actions to give detailed commands, which happen on its turn.

[JNAProductions]

I run that implication as fact. Only way a sim can regain anything is the alchemical healing. Anything else with limited uses is one and done.

Plus it's an NPC under my control. With its own initiative. It will obey orders, but won't innovate or try anything clever. So close coordination isn't guaranteed. I'll do my best to follow the spirit of the commands, but micro management isn't going to happen without you spending your actions to give detailed commands, which happen on its turn.

I agree with some parts of that-namely, limited resources are irrecoverable, save for the HP with the alchemy.

But the rest... I dunno. I'd honestly rather just outright ban Simulacrum or, at a minimum, not allow it to simply be learned on leveling up without some kind of quest than make your 20 Int Wizard copy not be smart.

Grod's Law and all that.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I agree with some parts of that-namely, limited resources are irrecoverable, save for the HP with the alchemy.

But the rest... I dunno. I'd honestly rather just outright ban Simulacrum or, at a minimum, not allow it to simply be learned on leveling up without some kind of quest than make your 20 Int Wizard copy not be smart.

Grod's Law and all that.

Ok, I was mistaken about one thing. It does act on the caster's turn. Which does allow some micromanagement. But note: it obeys your spoken orders. That's not the same as, say, dominate person's micromanagement option. And you've got a sharp limit on how much you can say in 6 seconds and still do your own thing, especially if you're also casting spells. So something like "fireball that group" or "cast <X> on me" is fine. Anything with complex conditional logic is right out unless you spend your action. And it is still an NPC under my control.

I do also use the AL rules (he is you and so are you). And my general dislike for minionmancy means I'm going to ask you not to go crazy with summons summoning things. Not as a rule, but as a table courtesy.

I am strongly against loosening or ignoring the limits of spells as written. Spells do exactly what they say, read narrowly (because they're so powerful). Contrarily, non-spell actions are much more generously read and allowed. Basically, if there's a good faith reading that disallows a spell use in a circumstance, the spell shouldn't work. If there's a good faith reading (of the situation, the ongoing fiction, or the rules) that allows a non-spell action, I'll let you at least try, and I won't set the DC out of range. Doing that solves a majority of the caster/non-caster disparity in my experience.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ok, I was mistaken about one thing. It does act on the caster's turn. Which does allow some micromanagement. But note: it obeys your spoken orders. That's not the same as, say, dominate person's micromanagement option. And you've got a sharp limit on how much you can say in 6 seconds and still do your own thing, especially if you're also casting spells. So something like "fireball that group" or "cast <X> on me" is fine. Anything with complex conditional logic is right out unless you spend your action. And it is still an NPC under my control. Thanks for clearing that up, hadn't had that point register so far (and since Sim is elsewhere it won't come up for a while). Will discuss with you off line.


I do also use the AL rules (he is you and so are you). And my general dislike for minionmancy means I'm going to ask you not to go crazy with summons summoning things. Not as a rule, but as a table courtesy.Yes. As player and as DM, working together on minions is critical to not slowing play down. (The Shepherd druid I DM for is great about the collaborative approach). We have packages in that game, just as you and I worked out packages for my bard's magical secrets with conjure animals.

[RSP]

I run that implication as fact. Only way a sim can regain anything is the alchemical healing. Anything else with limited uses is one and done.

Just curious, with the one-and-done rule, does that mean abilities like Unearthly Recovery and Second Wind work, or are they just ignored?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Just curious, with the one-and-done rule, does that mean abilities like Unearthly Recovery and Second Wind work, or are they just ignored?

Don't work. Cure wounds does nothing. Cannot be healed except via the alchemical method.

[RSP]

Interesting other thing about Simulacrum: Wizards can ultimately have at least two, without having Simulacrum chains. Simulacrum states “If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed.” But if you cast Simulacrum, then cast Wish and use it to duplicate the effects of Simulacrum, you’ve still only cast Simulacrum once and this clause is moot in that regard.
Now, you might have to hold off on casting Wish again, but it’s a RAW way to have two active Simulacrums.

[Chronos]

The rule actually states
The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain spell slots.
That "so" is crucial. The fundamental limitation is that it cannot become more powerful. Not regaining spell slots is one example given of what would count as "becoming more powerful", but it also can't become more powerful in any other way. It's a list of examples, not exhaustive. And if regaining spell slots is an example of becoming more powerful, then so is regaining sorcery points, or ki, or HP (except as specifically excepted with the repair ritual in the next paragraph) or any other expendable resource.

[KorvinStarmast]

The fundamental limitation is that it cannot become more powerful. Not regaining spell slots is one example given of what would count as "becoming more powerful", but it also can't become more powerful in any other way. It's a list of examples, not exhaustive. And if regaining spell slots is an example of becoming more powerful, then so is regaining sorcery points, or ki, or HP (except as specifically excepted with the repair ritual in the next paragraph) or any other expendable resource. Which includes bardic inspiration (per my DM's ruling) and once he explained why it made good sense to me.

[stoutstien]

Never knew people cared about the recovery of something that can be renewed daily.

[KorvinStarmast]

Never knew people cared about the recovery of something that can be renewed daily. BI is renewed at level 5 on short rest, FWIW.

[PhoenixPhyre]

BI is renewed at level 5 on short rest, FWIW.

I think he meant the simulacrum itself. But that's a) expensive unless you wish for it, b) carries a really long time cost, again unless you wish for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think he meant the simulacrum itself. But that's a) expensive unless you wish for it, b) carries a really long time cost, again unless you wish for it. Oh I see. Since I got sim at level 13, I have not internalized the concept of having a new me every day of the week if I want to once I hit level 18 and get wish as a magical secret.
The loveliest bard in the north country can sing two part harmony with ... herself. :smallyuk:
And I have better uses for wish than a daily sim.
There's all of those clones.
Summoning dragons
And so on.

[Bardon]

Oh I see. Since I got sim at level 13, I have not internalized the concept of having a new me every day of the week if I want to once I hit level 18 and get wish as a magical secret.
The loveliest bard in the north country can sing two part harmony with ... herself. :smallyuk:
And I have better uses for wish than a daily sim.
There's all of those clones.
Summoning dragons
And so on.

And of course the awesome fun of using Wish to cast an instantaneous Simulacrum that requires no material components ... of the BBEG. You have to be in Touch range but that's it.

You get a friendly copy of the bad guy (no saving throw or legendary resistance possible!) with all their abilities (okay half the HP) and even better, all their knowledge! So you get your wizard friend to teleport the party away (or your cleric can Word of Recall or whatever) and you have a version of the BBEG who can tell you all their plans, their resources, their contacts, their backup hidey holes..... :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[JackPhoenix]

Don't work. Cure wounds does nothing. Cannot be healed except via the alchemical method.

Cure Wounds wouldn't do anything anyway. A Simulacrum is a construct, and Cure Wounds (just like most healing magic) doesn't work on constructs.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Cure Wounds wouldn't do anything anyway. A Simulacrum is a construct, and Cure Wounds (just like most healing magic) doesn't work on constructs.

Good point.

[Sigreid]

I think the real way to abuse a caster's simulacrum is to give it things like wands and staves. it's not becoming more powerful, it's using a tool it has the power to use.

[Hytheter]

And of course the awesome fun of using Wish to cast an instantaneous Simulacrum that requires no material components ... of the BBEG. You have to be in Touch range but that's it.

Wishcasting Simulacrum on powerful enemy humanoid (or beast, I suppose) is definitely a dream of mine. Unfortunately I see very few such enemies in high level games.

[RSP]

The rule actually states
That "so" is crucial. The fundamental limitation is that it cannot become more powerful. Not regaining spell slots is one example given of what would count as "becoming more powerful", but it also can't become more powerful in any other way. It's a list of examples, not exhaustive. And if regaining spell slots is an example of becoming more powerful, then so is regaining sorcery points, or ki, or HP (except as specifically excepted with the repair ritual in the next paragraph) or any other expendable resource.

“The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain spell slots.”

I actually read this differently.

The middle clause is a clarification on what it means to be more powerful, while the third part is a separate standalone inability of the simulacrum.

For clarity, I read it thusly:

The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful (so it never increases its level or other abilities) nor can it regain spell slots.

[KorvinStarmast]

And of course the awesome fun of using Wish to cast an instantaneous Simulacrum that requires no material components ... of the BBEG. You have to be in Touch range but that's it. If it's a humanoid or a beast. Not sure how many high CR creatures are either.

You get a friendly copy of the bad guy (no saving throw or legendary resistance possible!) with all their abilities (okay half the HP) and even better, all their knowledge! So you get your wizard friend to teleport the party away (or your cleric can Word of Recall or whatever) and you have a version of the BBEG who can tell you all their plans, their resources, their contacts, their backup hidey holes. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: I think that one can use dominate monster to get them to talk about their plans, once legendary resists are burned through. (Or suggestion...)

For clarity, I read it thusly:

The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful (so it never increases its level or other abilities) nor can it regain spell slots. Which, I think, still leaves ambiguous the matter of recovering most short rest resources (ki, second wind, channel divinity, etc) so each DM will need to rule on that.

[RSP]

Which, I think, still leaves ambiguous the matter of recovering most short rest resources (ki, second wind, channel divinity, etc) so each DM will need to rule on that.

Sure, was just offering my .02 on how I’ve always read the RAW on it. I’ve always believed (and my tables, even when I play, always played) the simulacrum can regain other, non-HP and non-spell slot abilities.

Chronos and others seemed to have been trying to put in RAW stone that that wasn’t possible, so I offered my take, to show it was.

[Mitchellnotes]

Sure, was just offering my .02 on how I’ve always read the RAW on it. I’ve always believed (and my tables, even when I play, always played) the simulacrum can regain other, non-HP and non-spell slot abilities.

Chronos and others seemed to have been trying to put in RAW stone that that wasn’t possible, so I offered my take, to show it was.

For what its worth i would agree with your take that that is how its written. I think the intention is that they wouldn't benefit from a rest (like getting hp back, regaining slots or regenerating other abilities), but RAW is much different. I don't know of sny other place where s creatures "power" is connected with fetting more uses of abilities. I would read it how you would, but would understand and think it very fair to be more limited.

[strangebloke]

man we can heal undead in this edition