What if everyone got Extra Attack at character level 5?

[GeneralVryth]

This was an idea spawned when I looked at the Cleric getting smite spells thread, and kind of in some form or another has been rattling around in my head for awhile when thinking about martial or caster abilities. Now I this sounds like a pure buff to casters with martial classes getting short changed but hear out the full thought.

Right now every martial or half caster (besides the Rogue) gets Extra Attack at level 5, as well as every full caster with some form of a gish option (Bladesingers, Valor Bards, Swords Bards, all Weapon Pact Warlocks). In other words pretty much every class that it would make sense for gets it besides Rogues and martial Clerics. It's also relatively boring, and as was seen in the changes to the Bladesinger version isn't a great way to turn a full caster into a gish because it doesn't allow for the mixing of the martial and magic. So it's an important ability, most get, and boring, this sounds like a perfect example of an ability that should be available to everyone. So by tying it to character level everyone gets it as natural boost for having weapon training, just like anyone with a combat cantrip gets a damage bonus to the cantrip when they hit character level 5.

Most importantly though this now unlocks a slot to give a more class oriented ability (or maybe some kind of martial and narrative ability) to the various martials that would have gotten it. That cold be as simple as another Fighting Style (with the new ones in Tasha's most martials would love to have at least 2 or 3), maybe mixed with a single instance of expertise or learning a new skill. Of course there are much more flavorful ideas that can go there as well.

For the full casters that would have gotten it as a sub-class ability you can now replace it with something similar to the Bladesinger level 6 ability. In terms of actual improvement this simply gives casters more options and is only really a bonus to casters that would prefer to keep using a weapon instead of a cantrip for their base attack at level 5+. Where as for martials they should all be getting some kind of full level ability (ideally with some narrative use) in addition to what they would have had otherwise, likely making them stronger in combat and hopefully giving them more options outside of it (kind of an inverse to casters who are simply gaining an in-combat option).

As an interesting change you could make alongside this, you could make weapons with the "Loading" property require spending an attack to reload them, and then giving them a subsequent increase in damage. This would create a natural flow where you can only attack with them every other turn at low levels for a heavy hit, and then at level 5+ you can attack once a turn with them with a single more powerful shot (which fits elegantly into a Rogue style and their base proficiency with them as ranged weapons).


D&D 5.5e/6e Evolution:

The above could be retrofitted into 5e without too much trouble if someone wanted. The next part I am not so sure about but I like the idea of anyways as it fixes another weakness I think exists in the martial sphere. What if every weapon was made similar to a cantrip? I don't necessarily mean a basic effect with damage increases at levels 5, 11, and 17. But instead a stat block that gives some kind of bonus at character levels 5, 11, and 17, and maybe an optional "expertise" bonus or ability.

For most weapons the easy level 5 ability is an extra attack option and works with any weapon you are proficient in. The exception might be weapons that are meant to be slower to fire if they start with a higher base damage then the level 5 ability could be a method to reload them faster. The expertise abilities could be special attacks usable only once per initiative roll, Baldur's Gate 3 already has some ideas there, and level 11 and 17 abilities would be some combination of a damage bonus and rider (likely the rider gained at 11, and a damage bonus at 17).

There is lots of room to play here, but most importantly it's a way to make ones choice of weapon more meaningful by making them more distinct. It also divorces basic martial ability from class level in the same way basic spell caster ability is either based on character level (for cantrips) or a combination of all spell caster levels (for spell slots). Which allows the various martial classes to not need to supply as much of the power here, instead allowing them to focus on more class oriented abilities. Not to mention this makes multi-classing much less penalizing. Finally, one change that could also be done with this is instead of giving characters proficiency with large groups of weapons, they would instead only gain proficiency with X number of weapons chosen from a list of options, as weapon choice now matters a lot more in the same vein cantrip choice does (you could include an option to retrain a weapon proficiency on level up or something).

[Grod_The_Giant]

It would heavily encourage martial characters to multiclass-- something like Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 1 would be significantly better than a single-class Fighter 5 if it still gets Extra Attack. Non-casters tend to get their main schtick up and rolling by level 3 at the latest, and picking up a second one for such a low cost is very, very tempting.

Is that a problem? That's harder to say. If you view classes as distinct identifies, you're not going to be happy with anything that muddles the waters so much. If you're concerned about balance, you're going to have headaches about all the potential combinations. On the other hand, if you enjoy the character building side of the game and/or like to play concepts that don't quite fit the standard classes, you're going to have a great time. And if you cut your teeth on 3.5 (where weapon-users could multiclass freely without slowing down their offensive growth), it'll feel like coming home.

#

As for the latter idea...it's a fun one. I experimented with something similar in my Grimoire-- I've got a system there where a weapon has certain properties based on its weight (light, medium, heavy) and what kind of weapon it is (axes, maces, etc). I definitely didn't go as far as attaching unique maneuvers to different weapon types, though I like the idea...

... I actually kind of want to work on that idea now, DAMM IT.

[quindraco]

Right now every martial or half caster (besides the Rogue) gets Extra Attack at level 5

Someone should tell Artillerist and Alchemist Artificers that.


, as well as every full caster with some form of a gish option (Bladesingers, Valor Bards, Swords Bards, all Weapon Pact Warlocks).

Someone should really tell Clerics and Druids that.

[Toadkiller]

I might consider letting a cleric get extra attack - if they lost the scaling on cantrips.

[Gtdead]

My suggestion would be for classes with access to extra attack, to be allowed to pool their levels together, so a Fighter 3/Ranger 2 gets the second attack.

If one of the classes gets it at lvl 6, then the multiclass gets it at level 6 too. For example a Fighter 3/Valor Bard 2 won't get it, it will need either Fighter 4 or Bard 3.

For everyone else, I'm not entirely against the idea of them getting extra attack, but to get it much much later, like lvl 10 or 12.

[Notafish]

The next part I am not so sure about but I like the idea of anyways as it fixes another weakness I think exists in the martial sphere. What if every weapon was made similar to a cantrip? I don't necessarily mean a basic effect with damage increases at levels 5, 11, and 17. But instead a stat block that gives some kind of bonus at character levels 5, 11, and 17, and maybe an optional "expertise" bonus or ability.

For most weapons the easy level 5 ability is an extra attack option and works with any weapon you are proficient in. The exception might be weapons that are meant to be slower to fire if they start with a higher base damage then the level 5 ability could be a method to reload them faster. The expertise abilities could be special attacks usable only once per initiative roll, Baldur's Gate 3 already has some ideas there, and level 11 and 17 abilities would be some combination of a damage bonus and rider (likely the rider gained at 11, and a damage bonus at 17).



I like this idea quite a bit, and I think "weapon-proficiencies-as-cantrips" could even replace "extra attack" if weapon proficiencies were limited to 1-5 proficiencies-per-character (increasing with martial class level) rather than gaining a full category of training. Generally, I would think level-1 proficiency would grant just the standard proficiency bonus to attack, while the level 5/11/17 bonuses could provide an extra attack and/or a damage rider depending on the weapon. Status effect riders might be more complicated, since they might overlap with class features, but would make sense in some cases. The "expertise" bonus seems like a good thing to have in reserve for characters who get into the higher Fighter levels in place of their lost extra extra attacks.

[KorvinStarmast]

What if everyone got Extra Attack at character level 5?
Then the "let's crap on martial characters" inclination by Wizards of the Coast would be complete. :smallyuk:
The genre is Swords and sorcery. So how about let's let swords be swords, and sorcery be sorcery. :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

1) If you are taking a class feature and giving it to everyone based on character level, then you will want to replace the class feature with a level appropriate new feature.

No, getting another Fighting style would not be enough. Think "better than an ASI".


2) Different classes were designed around different offense math. You noticed the Rogue but did you remember Spiritual Weapon? Clerics get bonus damage per hit and get Spiritual Weapon as their martial model. Adding Extra Attack for free gives them a 3rd attack that also has a damage boost. In contrast Rogues get an extra attack they don't really care about.

So different classes will benefit more (Cleric) or less (Rogue) to this change, if they are effected at all (what about Sorcerer?). Maybe most classes another feature at 5th to compensate for the bias some classes get?


You could do this change, but doing it right would require generating several new features for the classes.

[KorvinStarmast]

You could do this change, but doing it right would require generating several new features for the classes. And that requires actual work. :smallwink:

[Eric Diaz]

I don't see any obvious downsides except por making a ranged rogue even better. Spellcasting classes usually have better things to do with their actions, but if they find a cool weapon and want to use it...

Also devalues fighters, rangers, and barbarians, classes that don't deserve this, but IMMV.

[Bobthewizard]

How about letting any class that gets extra attack at level 5 take the first set of features from another subclass from their class. So if you are playing an Eldritch Knight, when you reach level 5 in fighter you could also take the Battle Master maneuvers. You wouldn't get scaling of the second subclass though.

[BigRedJedi]

I've always allowed any class that gets Extra Attack, if it gets a second iteration of Extra Attack from another source, it picks which version of Extra Attack to keep (only relevant with the Bladesinger, at this point, I believe), then gets to choose a Feat (but not an ASI).

Hasn't encouraged any additional multiclassing at my tables, more than normal, and gives martials an extra toy or two (maybe? How many builds are taking 5 levels in 3+ classes?). The most popular picks are Magic Initiate and Fighting Style, so... YMMV

[sambojin]

I would never play anything other than a druid. Extra attack works *really well* with some wildshape forms. Even little wildshape.

Cows/Oxen/(Deep)Rothes/Stench Kows, Warhorses, Elk, Constrictor Snakes, Crocodiles, Wolves, Apes, Giant Goats, Jaculi, Frilled Deathspitters, you name it, they're better. A lot of these aren't even "exotic", everyone has seen them. And they're all quite good with Extra Attack. Druid usually contains some "unintended consequences", so it's probably best to not add to them.

[Pex]

My suggestion would be for classes with access to extra attack, to be allowed to pool their levels together, so a Fighter 3/Ranger 2 gets the second attack.

If one of the classes gets it at lvl 6, then the multiclass gets it at level 6 too. For example a Fighter 3/Valor Bard 2 won't get it, it will need either Fighter 4 or Bard 3.

For everyone else, I'm not entirely against the idea of them getting extra attack, but to get it much much later, like lvl 10 or 12.

Something would still need to be done about double Extra Attack, i.e. Fighter 5/Barbarian 5. If Fighter keeps exclusivity of getting more than two attacks at higher level, not unreasonable, then something else. As it stands now it's a dead multiclass level, so people don't do it. Whatever level 6 and above give, to go 5/6, 5/7, 6/6, etc. it's not worth the Nothing from the second level 5.

[jas61292]

I'd be concerned about paladin dips. A Charisma caster dipping in paladin has a ton of spells to smite with, but only one attack to use them with unless they dedicate 5 levels to it (or are a specific bards or warlocks). With this, they get pretty much all the benefits of 5 levels in 2, and become stupid smiting machines.

[GeneralVryth]

It would heavily encourage martial characters to multiclass-- something like Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 1 would be significantly better than a single-class Fighter 5 if it still gets Extra Attack. Non-casters tend to get their main schtick up and rolling by level 3 at the latest, and picking up a second one for such a low cost is very, very tempting.

Is that a problem? That's harder to say. If you view classes as distinct identifies, you're not going to be happy with anything that muddles the waters so much. If you're concerned about balance, you're going to have headaches about all the potential combinations. On the other hand, if you enjoy the character building side of the game and/or like to play concepts that don't quite fit the standard classes, you're going to have a great time. And if you cut your teeth on 3.5 (where weapon-users could multiclass freely without slowing down their offensive growth), it'll feel like coming home.

#

As for the latter idea...it's a fun one. I experimented with something similar in my Grimoire-- I've got a system there where a weapon has certain properties based on its weight (light, medium, heavy) and what kind of weapon it is (axes, maces, etc). I definitely didn't go as far as attaching unique maneuvers to different weapon types, though I like the idea...

... I actually kind of want to work on that idea now, DAMM IT.

Multi-classing is certainly a major concern. Ideally you combine this with a slight reduction in the strength of low level abilities, with some new high level ones for for pretty much every martial and half-caster. As has been discussed elsewhere the multi-classing being popular with martials is because their high level abilities suck.


1) If you are taking a class feature and giving it to everyone based on character level, then you will want to replace the class feature with a level appropriate new feature.

No, getting another Fighting style would not be enough. Think "better than an ASI".

2) Different classes were designed around different offense math. You noticed the Rogue but did you remember Spiritual Weapon? Clerics get bonus damage per hit and get Spiritual Weapon as their martial model. Adding Extra Attack for free gives them a 3rd attack that also has a damage boost. In contrast Rogues get an extra attack they don't really care about.

So different classes will benefit more (Cleric) or less (Rogue) to this change, if they are effected at all (what about Sorcerer?). Maybe most classes another feature at 5th to compensate for the bias some classes get?

You could do this change, but doing it right would require generating several new features for the classes.

I agree with the idea that a Fighting Style isn't enough, ideally I would want a feature that is either flexible, or flavorful that is helpful in the non-combat pillars, maybe mixed with a minor combat bonus (like a second Fighting Style). You make a good point about Clerics and Spiritual Weapon, in general Clerics would need a slight re-work with the damage boosting abilities they get at level 8. The ideal form of this requires building a half dozen new abilities at a minimum (not counting the weapons as cantrips like things), and if I was going to really do it in a game I run (or was getting paid to do mechanics) that's what I would do.


And that requires actual work. :smallwink:

Yep... :)


I don't see any obvious downsides except por making a ranged rogue even better. Spellcasting classes usually have better things to do with their actions, but if they find a cool weapon and want to use it...

Also devalues fighters, rangers, and barbarians, classes that don't deserve this, but IMMV.

The point isn't really to make Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians worse, if it worked the way I imagined with proper replacement abilities the end result should actually be a net boost for those classes. Obviously just doing the top line change is a net negative to them.


I'd be concerned about paladin dips. A Charisma caster dipping in paladin has a ton of spells to smite with, but only one attack to use them with unless they dedicate 5 levels to it (or are a specific bards or warlocks). With this, they get pretty much all the benefits of 5 levels in 2, and become stupid smiting machines.

That is a good point. Given how often smite comes up as a problem like this, it really seems like it needs a rework in general. Probably a combination approach between the smite spells and the smite effect. You learn smite effects as you level up as a paladin and you can spend an X size spell slot up to a maximum limited by the ability (which increases as you level up as a Paladin).

[Stangler]

I think it is too late to do that in 5e but 6e should definitely do something like this. If anything the action economy should be more established level one. Being only able to attack once per round messes with the early game math as it means bigger swings down from potential effectiveness. Plus waiting a round to swing and miss isn’t fun.

2 actions and movement are my ideal action economy set up

[OldTrees1]

Multi-classing is certainly a major concern. Ideally you combine this with a slight reduction in the strength of low level abilities, with some new high level ones for for pretty much every martial and half-caster. As has been discussed elsewhere the multi-classing being popular with martials is because their high level abilities suck.

Well replacing the removed features would help with the multiclassing issues. This is the main reason the new 5th level class features need to be better than the 4th level class features.


I agree with the idea that a Fighting Style isn't enough, ideally I would want a feature that is either flexible, or flavorful that is helpful in the non-combat pillars, maybe mixed with a minor combat bonus (like a second Fighting Style). You make a good point about Clerics and Spiritual Weapon, in general Clerics would need a slight re-work with the damage boosting abilities they get at level 8. The ideal form of this requires building a half dozen new abilities at a minimum (not counting the weapons as cantrips like things), and if I was going to really do it in a game I run (or was getting paid to do mechanics) that's what I would do.

Yep... :)

Recognizes the work required and is willing to do that work? I am confident you would have it be a reasonable change

Here are some quick insights on current offense math


Artificer:
Barbarian: Extra Attack + Extra Damage(+Prof)
Bard(valor/sword): Extra Attack(6th) + Extra Damage(Limited Resource, +1d12)
Cleric(nature): Shillelagh + Spiritual Weapon + Extra Damage(+2d8)
Druid(moon): Wildshape Multiattack -> Wildshape Extra Attack with best attack.
==>For example Dire Wolf Bite (no multiattack) -> Dire Wolf 2 Bites
Druid(spore): Shillelagh + Halo of Spire x2 + Extra Damage(+1d6)
Fighter: Extra Attack(2) + Extra Damage(various)
Monk:
Paladin: Divine Smite, Extra Attack, Extra Damage(+1d8)
Rogue (Arcane Trickster): Steady Aim + SCAG Cantrip + Sneak Attack per turn + Haste(2 Sneak Attacks per round).
Sorcerer:
Warlock(Hexblade): Eldritch Blast (Scaling number of Attack) + Extra Damage(+Cha, +1d6, +Prof)
Wizard(Bladesinger): Extra Attack + Extra Damage(+Int)



Artificer:
Barbarian: Rage Damage, Reckless Attack
Cleric: Shillelagh + Spiritual Weapon
Druid(moon): Shillelagh + Extra Attack Dire Wolf
Druid(spore): Shillelagh + Halo of Spire(2d4) + Extra Damage(+1d6)
Fighter: Fighting Style + Action Surge + Battlemaster Extra Damage (4d8 per short rest)
Monk:
Paladin: Fighting Style + Divine Smite
Rogue: Expertise + Sneak Attack(1d6/turn) + Cunning Action
Sorcerer:
Warlock(Hexblade): Hex Warrior + Extra Damage(+1d6, +Prof) vs Eldritch Blast (Scaling number of Attack) + Extra Damage(+Cha, +1d6, +Prof)
==> Note: While Hexblade multiclasses have some weapon based goodies, the Eldritch Blast goodies scale. This means the multiclass has to have weapon synergy that exceeds Eldritch Blast before you need to worry about it. This is more obvious in Tier 3.
Wizard:




Insights:
Extra Damage scales with Extra Attacks. However additional damage (Sneak Attack, Spiritual Weapon, Halo of Spores) doesn't.
Nature Clerics get Shillelagh + Spiritual Weapon(1d8+Wis) and +2d8 Extra Damage
Spore Druid gets Shillelagh + Halo of Spores(2d4 => 2d10) and +1d6 Extra Damage
Moon Druids can choose battle forms with 1 strong attack. Thus have perfect synergy with Extra Attack. Giant Elk at 6th level upgrades from 4d6+4(Strength DC 14 prone) to 4d6+4d8+8(assuming they fell prone) or 8d6+8(2 saves) by switching targets and taking an AoO.

[Witty Username]

As an interesting change you could make alongside this, you could make weapons with the "Loading" property require spending an attack to reload them, and then giving them a subsequent increase in damage. This would create a natural flow where you can only attack with them every other turn at low levels for a heavy hit, and then at level 5+ you can attack once a turn with them with a single more powerful shot (which fits elegantly into a Rogue style and their base proficiency with them as ranged weapons).

Why are we nerfing rogues at levels 1-4? It seems arbitrary to me.

Generally, I think everyone getting extra attack is unnecessary since it buffs characters that are already good, and does nothing or nerfs the characters that already get extra attack.

[DwarfFighter]

Extra attack at level 11 sounds more wise.

[Xoronis]

I'd be concerned about paladin dips. A Charisma caster dipping in paladin has a ton of spells to smite with, but only one attack to use them with unless they dedicate 5 levels to it (or are a specific bards or warlocks). With this, they get pretty much all the benefits of 5 levels in 2, and become stupid smiting machines.

It's not a perfect solution, but restricting Divine Smite to once per turn could help balance this. I'm honestly surprised that it's not like that already, considering how many other similar features (Sneak Attack, Eldritch Smite, the College of Whisper's Psychic Blades) are only once per turn (or even once per round).

[sambojin]

What if all martial characters got Magical Initiate: whatever at level 5, as well as Extra Attack? I think that'd be better for the game than giving everyone Extra Attack at that point.