The Sacred Outlaw feat

[CopperElfCleric]

By far my favorite feat in all of 3.5ed.

It's amazing that a Rogue 24/ Cleric 1 can turn or destroy undead as a 25'th level cleric.

It's also amazing that a Cleric 22/ Rogue 3 can sneak attack as a 25'th level rogue.

Does anyone have any cool PC's that have used this feat to maximum effect? I'd love to hear the stories.

[noob]

By far my favorite feat in all of 3.5ed.

It's amazing that a Rogue 24/ Cleric 1 can turn or destroy undead as a 25'th level cleric.

It's also amazing that a Cleric 22/ Rogue 3 can sneak attack as a 25'th level rogue.

Does anyone have any cool PC's that have used this feat to maximum effect? I'd love to hear the stories.

Epic level characters are going to be epic regardless of the multiclass feat.

[Thurbane]

I was going to say this would combine well with Skullclan Hunter, so you could dip Cleric 1; but it wouldn't do much to help the PrC itself, only the Rogue levels you use to enter.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Most of the X/Y feats from Complete Adventurer are mediocre. Devoted Tracker is useful for Super Mounts due to how much you can stack onto your Special Mount/Animal Companion. Ascetic Mage helps a Monk/Sorcerers avoid some MAD issues, but only slightly. Master Spellthief can also lead to some shenanigans.

Almost all of the rest though? You probably could have done something similar or better with a Prestige Class instead and saved yourself the feat.

[CopperElfCleric]

Most of the X/Y feats from Complete Adventurer are mediocre. Devoted Tracker is useful for Super Mounts due to how much you can stack onto your Special Mount/Animal Companion. Ascetic Mage helps a Monk/Sorcerers avoid some MAD issues, but only slightly. Master Spellthief can also lead to some shenanigans.

Almost all of the rest though? You probably could have done something similar or better with a Prestige Class instead and saved yourself the feat.

I cannot recall any PrC that allows a 24'th level skill monkey to turn or destroy undead as a 25th level cleric.

I also cannot recall a PrC that allows a 22'nd level cleric to sneak attack as a 25th level rogue.

[redking]

I cannot recall any PrC that allows a 24'th level skill monkey to turn or destroy undead as a 25th level cleric.

I also cannot recall a PrC that allows a 22'nd level cleric to sneak attack as a 25th level rogue.

This is a beefy feat. Also, don't forget rebuke and command, which are going to be a lot more useful for a rogue. Take your Cleric 1 Rogue 24 for example. He can command undead and use the undead as assistance and fodder for his criminal activities. Perhaps the rogue/cleric is a guild master. Good luck trying to overthrow him with his undead guards and assassins.

[CopperElfCleric]

Epic level characters are going to be epic regardless of the multiclass feat.

I disagree but respect your disposition. A 24th level rogue/ 1st level cleric without the feat will find intelligent undead hard to kill, as the undead are immune to sneak attacks. Vampire Lords, Mummy Lords and Lich Lords would be immune to the turning effects of a 1'st level cleric. Laughable actually. But with that feat, that PC can turn or destroy undead as a 25'th level cleric. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Most of the X/Y feats from Complete Adventurer are mediocre. Devoted Tracker is useful for Super Mounts due to how much you can stack onto your Special Mount/Animal Companion. Ascetic Mage helps a Monk/Sorcerers avoid some MAD issues, but only slightly. Master Spellthief can also lead to some shenanigans.

Almost all of the rest though? You probably could have done something similar or better with a Prestige Class instead and saved yourself the feat.

Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter are also both pretty good.

[CopperElfCleric]

This is a beefy feat. Also, don't forget rebuke and command, which are going to be a lot more useful for a rogue. Take your Cleric 1 Rogue 24 for example. He can command undead and use the undead as assistance and fodder for his criminal activities. Perhaps the rogue/cleric is a guild master. Good luck trying to overthrow him with his undead guards and assassins.

My sentiments exactly. Thank you. My last PC (now retired from game-play) was a Wood elf male Rogue 24/ Cleric 1 of Erevan Ilesere... The elven god of Mischief, Trickery, Rogues and Change. He is CN in alignment and did whatever he wanted without a lawful sense or morals. He would steal from the rich as much as he would steal from the poor. He only cared for himself, his friends and loved ones. Everybody else was a potential mark. He was mostly noted for robbing tombs of powerful undead and walking away with a smile and his life.

He never had those evil intents to command undead or use undead to further his gains, but he would often strike bargains and treaties with powerful undead to again, further his goals.

Like you said.... I can totally see this NPC as a guild master using intelligent undead to make his guild so terribly powerful it would be nuts. Instead of your assassin being another elf in your guild.... it's a Vampire Lord.

[redking]

Like you said.... I can totally see this NPC as a guild master using intelligent undead to make his guild so terribly powerful it would be nuts. Instead of your assassin being another elf in your guild.... it's a Vampire Lord.

The only issue is finding the undead, or getting a cohort that can cast create undead. Also, why stop at undead? Pick up some domains that allow you to rebuke certain other creatures (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11391.0), like creatures with the fire subtype. At level 28, you can pick up intensify turning (https://web.archive.org/web/20160317233034/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20031115a), which makes even higher order undead an option for you to command.

If you are a thieves guild master, some types of undead, like flesh eating ghouls, will probably be considered to be in bad taste. You don't want them as your henchmen. But you could probably have a "ghoul pit" where you throw recalcitrant thieves into to be fed upon.

What you want is humanoid creatures with the vampire template. They have exactly the skill set you need for maintaining your iron grip on the guild. You've got these vampires commanded, so they will follow ANY order from you, including suicidal orders. In turn, they have the ability to dominate other creatures, great ability scores, ability to turn into gas and infiltrate virtually any place, and so on.

[CopperElfCleric]

The only issue is finding the undead, or getting a cohort that can cast create undead. Also, why stop at undead? Pick up some domains that allow you to rebuke certain other creatures (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11391.0), like creatures with the fire subtype. At level 28, you can pick up intensify turning (https://web.archive.org/web/20160317233034/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20031115a), which makes even higher order undead an option for you to command.

If you are a thieves guild master, some types of undead, like flesh eating ghouls, will probably be considered to be in bad taste. You don't want them as your henchmen. But you could probably have a "ghoul pit" where you throw recalcitrant thieves into to be fed upon.

What you want is humanoid creatures with the vampire template. They have exactly the skill set you need for maintaining your iron grip on the guild. You've got these vampires commanded, so they will follow ANY order from you, including suicidal orders. In turn, they have the ability to dominate other creatures, great ability scores, ability to turn into gas and infiltrate virtually any place, and so on.

If this said NPC at those levels can command intelligent undead, then why stop at Vampires? Mummies, lich's, Ghosts, Ghasts, Nightstalkers... all of these have greater versions of themselves available if you can find and dominate them.

A Ghast Lord is a wicked creature that would take a party of 4, 5th level PC's to even hurt. At higher levels, that Ghast Lord will destroy your same party.

a 24'th level rogue/ 1'st level cleric of Erevan Ilesere (with the Sacred Outlaw feat) would most likely own that particular city by sheer skill and combat alone. Between subterfuge, mischief and fear, that NPC would command the underbelly of said city. Add in the command of intelligent undead and stuff gets wonky and unbeatable. A 12 HD Ghoul lieutenant, with a 12 HD Ghost commander, with a 12 HD Mummy Lord, with a 15 HD Vampire Lord, with a 15 HD Lich Lord is epic and beyond defeating.

Unless you're Elminster, or Larloch, or Queen Amlaruil, you will not smash that.

That NPC can backstab anything living under CR 15 without much effort and put them down. Add the 25 levels of Cleric turning-destroying-or commanding with all the undead above and you are Peerless.

[Anthrowhale]

You can have only one level of spell advancement loss via Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cleric <n>.

The biggest drawback to these feats is that they tie you into taking many levels of cleric rather than other prestige classes. That's certainly ok---cleric is a very solid class. You can even advance multiple classes key abilities via cleric (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?598645-Party-of-one).

[redking]

If this said NPC at those levels can command intelligent undead, then why stop at Vampires? Mummies, lich's, Ghosts, Ghasts, Nightstalkers... all of these have greater versions of themselves available if you can find and dominate them.

Its not quite as good as you are hoping. Check out what is possible at what given level (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.msg31818#msg31818) (although intensify turning helps).


That NPC can backstab anything living under CR 15 without much effort and put them down. Add the 25 levels of Cleric turning-destroying-or commanding with all the undead above and you are Peerless.

Yes. You made a good find. I don't think I've seen sacred outlaw discussed much.

[CopperElfCleric]

You can have only one level of spell advancement loss via Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cleric <n>.

The biggest drawback to these feats is that they tie you into taking many levels of cleric rather than other prestige classes. That's certainly ok---cleric is a very solid class. You can even advance multiple classes key abilities via cleric (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?598645-Party-of-one).

Huh? I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. If you're going for a 25'th level build using the classes above, then Shadowbane stalker doesn't mix with this build. The Sacred Outlaw feat only works for Rogue/Cleric builds.

[redking]

Also, why not rogue 20, cleric 5? That nets you third level cleric spells.

[CopperElfCleric]

Its not quite as good as you are hoping. Check out what is possible at what given level (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.msg31818#msg31818) (although intensify turning helps).



Yes. You made a good find. I don't think I've seen sacred outlaw discussed much.

After playing this said PC, I realized that a 24'th level rogue by it'self can put down anything under 15CR by itself, as long as the enemy is living. You can do this with sneak attack alone. But undead cannot be affected by sneak attacks, so what do you do? If your party strolls into an ancient elven graveyard full of elven zombie Werewolves, what do you do?

You take the Sacred Outlaw feat next time you get a feat and turn, destroy or rebuke or command the powerful intelligent undead. Chances are you will slay skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghasts, ghosts, mummies, vampires and the occasional Lich with little effort in a party of 4.

If you were to play the trap filled, horror show module of Tomb of Horrors without a master rogue you would all die. And if you survived at all... who would slay the Lich? The 12'th Level cleric in your party? or the 24'th level rogue/ 1'st level cleric who can destroy undead of 9'th level or less without even rolling the dice?

This feat is amazing!

Alternatively... A 22'nd level cleric is pretty bad-arse by itself. Add the ability to sneak attack as a 25'th level rogue and pretty much anything under 15'th level is done and dead.

Either way, you're a massive skill monkey grandmaster with destroy undead abilities that can put down a Lich, or you're a divine casting spell monkey that can sneak attack like a grandmaster assassin.

[CopperElfCleric]

Also, why not rogue 20, cleric 5? That nets you third level cleric spells.

That is actually a great build. Rogue 20/ Cleric 5 of Erevan Ilesere is a very fun PC. Turn undead as 25, and sneak attack as 25.

[hamishspence]

After playing this said PC, I realized that a 24'th level rogue by it'self can put down anything under 15CR by itself, as long as the enemy is living. You can do this with sneak attack alone. But undead cannot be affected by sneak attacks, so what do you do?

There are a few ways to sneak attack undead. The Skullclan Hunter PRC from Miniatures Handbook springs to mind. The Greater Truedeath Crystal from Magic Item Compendium is probably the best way outside of classes, PRCs, and feats - an item, that can be swapped from weapon to weapon, that allows you to sneak attack all undead, including incorporeal ones.

[ff7hero]

The 12'th Level cleric in your party? or the 24'th level rogue/ 1'st level cleric who can destroy undead of 9'th level or less without even rolling the dice?


Why are these two characters adventuring together?

[CopperElfCleric]

Why are these two characters adventuring together?

Good question.... Many reasons.... Rogues are versatile. They can be thieves, assassins, scouts, skill monkeys, arcane or divine casters.

Clerics can be anything your deity wants or needs. Are you evil or good or neutral? Are you lawful or chaotic? Maybe you're CN and just don't care about anything except yourself.

If you're a cleric of Corellon Larethian you may not want to take rogue levels as a cleric.

If you're a cleric of Erevan Ilesere then you will absolutely want to take rogue levels.

It all depends on your deity.

They mesh well and are great to play together because a rogue and a cleric separately are powerful by themselves. Add them together in a multi-class with the Sacred Outlaw feat and you have solid gold.

[Maat Mons]

Well, bear in mind that, on the arcane side of things, it's pretty easy to combine Sneak Attack with spellcasting. A Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 10 has +10d6 Sneak Attack and casting as a 24th-level Wizard.

So the fact that a Rogue 1 / Cleric 24 has +13d6 Sneak Attack and casting as a 24th-level Cleric is nice and all. It's +3d6 Sneak Attack over the Wizard. And the Cleric gets +14 base attack bonus to the Wizard's +11. Plus the Cleric gets more health and a better Fortitude save.

But while the Cleric gets more Sneak Attack and forms a better base for fighting with weapons, I don't think it's so much of a power-up as to be out of line, balance-wise. The Cleric's greater toughness than the Wizard is a preexisting condition. And +3d6 Sneak Attack is nice, but I feel it's more-so an advantage that should be given to the class that's intended to be more focused on weapon use, and not an indication that the +13d6-Sneak-Attack Cleric is over-all more powerful than +10d6-Sneak-Attack Wizard.

So the Sacred-Outlaw approach is, in my view, a reasonable alternative to the Unseen-Seer Wizard, and vice versa. That means Sacred Outlaw is appropriately-balanced to other existing content. A good option, yes. But not unreasonably good.



As far as using the feat, I'd go with Rogue 1 / Cloistered Cleric X. Take the Rogue level at 1st for the extra skill points, and the Able Learner feat so you effectively have all Rogue skills as class skill for your Cleric levels. The choice of Cloistered Cleric gives you 6+Int skill points per level. It might be worth considering the Academic Priest feat, if it's allowed.

The reduced base attack bonus of Cloistered Cleric can be made up for with Persisted Divine Power.

And if it seems like Persisted Divine Power invalidates my previous comparison of the relative strengths of the Cleric and Wizard approaches, bear in mind that the Wizard gets access to the Hunter's Eye spell from Unseen Seer, which gives him +8d6 Sneak Attack damage. So both sides have substantial self-buffing options.



All that said, I actually think Sneak Attack can be a bit of a weak option. 5 out of the 15 creature types give immunity to critical hits, and by extension, immunity to Sneak Attacks. And Heavy Fortification becomes increasingly affordable as you get to higher levels.

You can use the Penetrating Strikes ACF to help with this. And the Golem Strike, Grave Strike, and Vine Strike spells help too. Then there are some magic items. But all-in-all, it takes a fair bit of investment just to get Sneak Attack to work reliably. I'd rather start with something that's reliably effective out of the box, and then spend those resources elsewhere.

[noob]

I disagree but respect your disposition. A 24th level rogue/ 1st level cleric without the feat will find intelligent undead hard to kill, as the undead are immune to sneak attacks. Vampire Lords, Mummy Lords and Lich Lords would be immune to the turning effects of a 1'st level cleric. Laughable actually. But with that feat, that PC can turn or destroy undead as a 25'th level cleric. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

By level 24 you should have acquired a magic item that allows to sneak attack undead(it actually exists: get a wand of that spell that allows to sneak attack undead) due to overinflated wbl in epic the wand is going to be negligible and allow you to kill undead as a rogue for 50 encounters.
Regardless dipping in cleric is strong even without that feat due to the domains you get from dipping into cleric.
You could also turn lich lords with a single cleric level if you get enough +X to effective cleric level for turning things (there is a scary amount of those if you are willing to read all the manuals)
That feat is good if turning matters to you specifically but I think that usually turning's usefulness depends vastly on the campaign.
Trying to qualify for cool rogue prcs that adds spellcasting is going to be overall more useful than that feat if you plan to be a rogue in spirit. (of course if you are going to be a cleric you could never take that feat or the rogue levels and be stronger because the added usefulness of sneak attack is very low when you are a cleric)

[Anthrowhale]

Huh? I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. If you're going for a 25'th level build using the classes above, then Shadowbane stalker doesn't mix with this build. The Sacred Outlaw feat only works for Rogue/Cleric builds.
The Sacred Outlaw feat has a prerequisite of:

Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Rogue 1 gives 1d6 sneak attack and Shadowbane Stalker 3 gives 1d6 sneak attack, so you qualify. A Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cleric 17 will have caster level 24, turning level 22, and sneak attack +12d6.

A third approach is to take Martial Stance[Assassin's Stance] increasing the feat tax to 3. The result there is plausibly caster level 25, turning level 25, sneak attack +15d6, although it requires a DM to agree that:

Your cleric ... levels ... stack for ... your sneak attack bonus damage.
makes sense without rogue levels.

[Darg]

Its not quite as good as you are hoping. Check out what is possible at what given level (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.msg31818#msg31818) (although intensify turning helps).



Yes. You made a good find. I don't think I've seen sacred outlaw discussed much.

Dragon magazine content is a lot easier to game and create extremely strong combos (one feat and one level equals full HD of a class added to a tier 1 when multiclassing is hardly balanced). It's not as fun debating something that is obviously powerful. It would have probably been discussed more if it were a rogue/paladin combo feat instead.

[redking]

Dragon magazine content is a lot easier to game and create extremely strong combos (one feat and one level equals full HD of a class added to a tier 1 when multiclassing is hardly balanced). It's not as fun debating something that is obviously powerful. It would have probably been discussed more if it were a rogue/paladin combo feat instead.

That makes sense. People will stop mentioning it of the response is always "no dragon magazine".

While the feat is powerful, it does require a hell of a commitment to the two base classes.

[pabelfly]

That makes sense. People will stop mentioning it of the response is always "no dragon magazine".

While the feat is powerful, it does require a hell of a commitment to the two base classes.

I think of Dragon Magazine like any other sourcebook - it's worth weighing up what the player wants to do and how that works with the rest of the party. There's plenty of broken stuff even without Dragon Magazine. I personally don't think Sacred Outlaw is too bad - you lose three levels of spells, since you need 2d6 sneak attack, or you lose one level of Rogue to get some Turning on your Rogue.

I don't think Rogue is a problem with Sacred Outlaw, and if the party cleric wants to trade 3 levels of spells for sneak attack, I don't see much of a problem with that, especially when compared to having a cleric with full casting and possibly abusing various PrCs instead.

[Metastachydium]

After playing this said PC, I realized that a 24'th level rogue by it'self can put down anything under 15CR by itself, as long as the enemy is living. You can do this with sneak attack alone. But undead cannot be affected by sneak attacks, so what do you do? If your party strolls into an ancient elven graveyard full of elven zombie Werewolves, what do you do?

You take the Sacred Outlaw feat next time you get a feat and turn, destroy or rebuke or command the powerful intelligent undead. Chances are you will slay skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghasts, ghosts, mummies, vampires and the occasional Lich with little effort in a party of 4.


BUT! Neither of those works on PLANTIES (and incorporeal non-undead, constructs and oozes)! Planties rule!

[Darg]

I don't think Rogue is a problem with Sacred Outlaw, and if the party cleric wants to trade 3 levels of spells for sneak attack, I don't see much of a problem with that, especially when compared to having a cleric with full casting and possibly abusing various PrCs instead.

It's not an issue at lower levels no, but at high levels the power balance gets wacky. I'm not much of a fan for the multiclass feats and much prefer a PRC solution instead where the "balance" is preserved at all levels instead. That said, I'm actually not a fan of 10 level PRCs that are able to be gotten at level 6 either. I prefer PRCs that have as many levels as the lowest level intended entry to level 20. Mystic theurge should have 14 levels as an example for continuity's sake. Considering the stance WotC professed on PRCs, it's surprising they kept the 10 level PRCs when players have to stop looking at their class title after 10 levels.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I cannot recall any PrC that allows a 24'th level skill monkey to turn or destroy undead as a 25th level cleric.

I also cannot recall a PrC that allows a 22'nd level cleric to sneak attack as a 25th level rogue.

Honestly, at those levels, it doesn't even much matter. At lower levels, if you really wanted to spend the feat(s), you could instead go something like Rogue 1/Spellthief 1 (or anything else with +1d6 SA at first level)/Cleric X. Or, feats permitting, you could have instead just grabbed Assassin's Stance and taken it on a straight Cleric.

I don't think there's a way to grab it on a straight Cleric, but there's also the Hunter's Eye spell. It's only 1st level and gives +1d6 SA/CL, and is easily persisted.

It's just hard to overstate just how good full casting is, but Turn/Rebuke Undead? Eh, it's more useful to fuel other abilities. Any creature that would be instantly destroyed likely wouldn't be a threat worth noting. Undead also tend to have a lot of HD for a given CR, so that's another mark against the ability.


Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter are also both pretty good.

Daring Outlaw is probably one of the better ones. Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 12 is I think old standard there.


It's not an issue at lower levels no, but at high levels the power balance gets wacky. I'm not much of a fan for the multiclass feats and much prefer a PRC solution instead where the "balance" is preserved at all levels instead. That said, I'm actually not a fan of 10 level PRCs that are able to be gotten at level 6 either. I prefer PRCs that have as many levels as the lowest level intended entry to level 20. Mystic theurge should have 14 levels as an example for continuity's sake. Considering the stance WotC professed on PRCs, it's surprising they kept the 10 level PRCs when players have to stop looking at their class title after 10 levels.

You need to either be a Druid or grow thorough hoops to get Trackless Step as a class feature some other way, but Arcane Heirophant can progress a character past MT 10. Even so, it's best to pretend that the Epic Mystic Theurge gives full casting rather than alternate between arcane and divine casting every other level.

[Buufreak]

It's just hard to overstate just how good full casting is, but Turn/Rebuke Undead? Eh, it's more useful to fuel other abilities. Any creature that would be instantly destroyed likely wouldn't be a threat worth noting. Undead also tend to have a lot of HD for a given CR, so that's another mark against the ability.

This has been my thought on most all of this thread. What 25th level divine full caster cares about sneak attack when they are usually wading with heavy armor and/or (far more importantly) casting a 10th or 11th level spell, or even an epic spell, that ends an encounter outright?



Daring Outlaw is probably one of the better ones. Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 12 is I think old standard there.


I'm a fan of swift hunter on scout 5/ranger 4/bard 2 when going into the cluster that is foluchan lyrist. Ends with ranger casting 9, bard 10, decent skirmish, decent favored enemy, tons of skill points, and I think 16 bab at 20. Not high power by any means, but good allrounder.

[Thurbane]

I don't think Rogue is a problem with Sacred Outlaw, and if the party cleric wants to trade 3 levels of spells for sneak attack, I don't see much of a problem with that, especially when compared to having a cleric with full casting and possibly abusing various PrCs instead.

You can get away with 1 level of rogue, using items to meet the reqs (something like a Rogue's vest, for instance). Once you self-qualify using the feat and level stacking, you can ditch the item if you want.

Or Martial Stance (assassin's stance), which will require a dip in a martial adept class, or another feat.

I mean, a single classed Cleric can get 2d6 sneak attack with no Rogue levels, but then you have nothing for the feat to stack.

As others have mentioned, the opportunity cost in PrCs is one drawback of the feat; especially if the majority of levels are Cleric, since Cleric gets no class features past level 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tashalatora from Secrets of Sarlona is a really good multiclassing feat, I think. The monk's AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage stapled onto a psionic manifesting class of your choice? Booyah.

My only real issue is that it requires a nigh-useless prereq feat. I mean, you want one or two levels in monk and then never want to touch it again. Why would you want to waste a feat on going back to taking monk, which nobody ever does anyway? Not only are monk levels largely crap after that, but you're burning manifester levels for them, which is even worse! I guess that's the price to pay for not actually requiring monk levels to take it (ironically making Monastic Training as a prereq even more awful), but bleh.

So, yeah. Kill Monastic Training with a FOOFthrower, but aside from that, Tashalatora is pretty great.

[CopperElfCleric]

Well, bear in mind that, on the arcane side of things, it's pretty easy to combine Sneak Attack with spellcasting. A Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 10 has +10d6 Sneak Attack and casting as a 24th-level Wizard.

So the fact that a Rogue 1 / Cleric 24 has +13d6 Sneak Attack and casting as a 24th-level Cleric is nice and all. It's +3d6 Sneak Attack over the Wizard. And the Cleric gets +14 base attack bonus to the Wizard's +11. Plus the Cleric gets more health and a better Fortitude save.

But while the Cleric gets more Sneak Attack and forms a better base for fighting with weapons, I don't think it's so much of a power-up as to be out of line, balance-wise. The Cleric's greater toughness than the Wizard is a preexisting condition. And +3d6 Sneak Attack is nice, but I feel it's more-so an advantage that should be given to the class that's intended to be more focused on weapon use, and not an indication that the +13d6-Sneak-Attack Cleric is over-all more powerful than +10d6-Sneak-Attack Wizard.

So the Sacred-Outlaw approach is, in my view, a reasonable alternative to the Unseen-Seer Wizard, and vice versa. That means Sacred Outlaw is appropriately-balanced to other existing content. A good option, yes. But not unreasonably good.



As far as using the feat, I'd go with Rogue 1 / Cloistered Cleric X. Take the Rogue level at 1st for the extra skill points, and the Able Learner feat so you effectively have all Rogue skills as class skill for your Cleric levels. The choice of Cloistered Cleric gives you 6+Int skill points per level. It might be worth considering the Academic Priest feat, if it's allowed.

The reduced base attack bonus of Cloistered Cleric can be made up for with Persisted Divine Power.

And if it seems like Persisted Divine Power invalidates my previous comparison of the relative strengths of the Cleric and Wizard approaches, bear in mind that the Wizard gets access to the Hunter's Eye spell from Unseen Seer, which gives him +8d6 Sneak Attack damage. So both sides have substantial self-buffing options.



All that said, I actually think Sneak Attack can be a bit of a weak option. 5 out of the 15 creature types give immunity to critical hits, and by extension, immunity to Sneak Attacks. And Heavy Fortification becomes increasingly affordable as you get to higher levels.

You can use the Penetrating Strikes ACF to help with this. And the Golem Strike, Grave Strike, and Vine Strike spells help too. Then there are some magic items. But all-in-all, it takes a fair bit of investment just to get Sneak Attack to work reliably. I'd rather start with something that's reliably effective out of the box, and then spend those resources elsewhere.

Cloistered cleric doesn't mesh at all with a CG, CN PC. Or NPC for that matter. I'm kinda using the trickster god of the elves to make a point. Cloistered cleric is good for N or CG or LN or LG PC or NPC.

I'm talking about a Cleric-Rogue of a Trickster deity. You cannot have a Cloistered cleric of a Trickster deity full of chaos and deception and change. lol.

Well, I mean, you can... it's just against the rules. And that's ok. Even though we all break rules in our games and campaigns, you kinda want to stick to the rules.

It goes against the dogma and portfolios of all Trickster gods and goddesses. From Erevan Ilesere to Baravar Cloakshadow, to Brandobaris, to Vergadain. From Garl Glittergold to every Archfey on the Plane of Faerie.

[Buufreak]

Cloistered cleric doesn't mesh at all with a CG, CN PC. Or NPC for that matter.
...
You cannot have a Cloistered cleric of a Trickster deity full of chaos and deception and change. lol.

... why not? CC is an overall great class, mountain of skills, lore, casting, extra domain. Nothing in it says they can't be chaotic. Any god can have a cleric, and by extension, a cloistered cleric.


Well, I mean, you can... it's just against the rules. And that's ok. Even though we all break rules in our games and campaigns, you kinda want to stick to the rules.

It goes against the dogma and portfolios of all Trickster gods and goddesses. From Erevan Ilesere to Baravar Cloakshadow, to Brandobaris, to Vergadain. From Garl Glittergold to every Archfey on the Plane of Faerie.

Got any citation on that?

[Kuulvheysoon]

... why not? CC is an overall great class, mountain of skills, lore, casting, extra domain. Nothing in it says they can't be chaotic. Any god can have a cleric, and by extension, a cloistered cleric.



Got any citation on that?

Quote from UA:
Most cloistered clerics are nonchaotic, since they believe that a disciplined lifestyle lends itself better to learning.That's as far as it goes, really - it's not like the Bardic Sage variant class, which actually does prohibit chaotic (and lawful) bards.

[Maat Mons]

I always kind of figured any deity that offers the Knowledge domain is a good thematic fit for Cloistered Cleric. Boccob, Dallah Thaun, Mouqol, Oghma, and Xan Yae are all deities that offer both the Knowledge and Trickery domains. I'd think any of them would be good candidates for patron of a tricksy Rogue / Cloistered Cleric multiclass character.

But a Rogue / Cloistered Cleric multiclass character doesn't necessarily have to go the tricksy route. Nor does any Rogue of any kind. I feel that the class has several facets. My various attempts to quantify those facets have never been completely satisfactory, but here's my latest one:

Acrobat: Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble
Mechanic: Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Use Magic Device
People Person: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Knowledge (local)
Scout: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Swindler: Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Sleight of Hand
It's actually really hard to fill all of those rolls, even with a Rogue's prodigious number of skill points. So I'd expect any individual Rogue to pick some areas to focus on, and forgo others. And they all seem equally valid to me.

By the way, does anyone have a better name for what I currently have labeled as "People Person?"

[Buufreak]

Generally the term i see is "face."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would the plural of "people person" be "people people"?

[Darg]

Would the plural of "people person" be "people people"?

Nah, we just call that an insurrection.

[CopperElfCleric]

I always kind of figured any deity that offers the Knowledge domain is a good thematic fit for Cloistered Cleric. Boccob, Dallah Thaun, Mouqol, Oghma, and Xan Yae are all deities that offer both the Knowledge and Trickery domains. I'd think any of them would be good candidates for patron of a tricksy Rogue / Cloistered Cleric multiclass character.

But a Rogue / Cloistered Cleric multiclass character doesn't necessarily have to go the tricksy route. Nor does any Rogue of any kind. I feel that the class has several facets. My various attempts to quantify those facets have never been completely satisfactory, but here's my latest one:

Acrobat: Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble
Mechanic: Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Use Magic Device
People Person: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Knowledge (local)
Scout: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Swindler: Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Sleight of Hand
It's actually really hard to fill all of those rolls, even with a Rogue's prodigious number of skill points. So I'd expect any individual Rogue to pick some areas to focus on, and forgo others. And they all seem equally valid to me.

By the way, does anyone have a better name for what I currently have labeled as "People Person?"

People person = Charlatan. Scoundrel. The most likeable people, people are liars and swindlers. You know, normal people. lol.

[CopperElfCleric]

... why not? CC is an overall great class, mountain of skills, lore, casting, extra domain. Nothing in it says they can't be chaotic. Any god can have a cleric, and by extension, a cloistered cleric.



Got any citation on that?

A follower of Erevan Ilesere would NEVER be cloistered. Like ever. lol. They are adventurers and wanderers. For some very odd reason I always imagine a Wererat moon elf cleric 22/ rogue 3 of Erevan Ilesere. lol. Holding the Midnight Gambol in the gutters once a month, lol.

[LordofBones]

Lacking the dexterity and approachability of his peers, a shy cleric who reveres Erevan's whimsical and open nature decides that the best way to honor his god is to collect stories, fables and jokes to entertain feasters and revelers during Erevan's Gambols.

There, a cloistered cleric of Erevan.

[JNAProductions]

Lacking the dexterity and approachability of his peers, a shy cleric who reveres Erevan's whimsical and open nature decides that the best way to honor his god is to collect stories, fables and jokes to entertain feasters and revelers during Erevan's Gambols.

There, a cloistered cleric of Erevan.

Also, it's a word in the class name.

Unless you run a world similar to that of Order Of The Stick, where classes, feats, and whatnot are tangible, in-world things, it's a collection of abilities with a general theme.

If you play a devout and pious Fighter, you could be called a Paladin, Knight, or Crusader in-world. If you play an Archivist who crusades, they could be a Paladin, a Cleric, a Crusader, or other terms in-world.

[CopperElfCleric]

By level 24 you should have acquired a magic item that allows to sneak attack undead(it actually exists: get a wand of that spell that allows to sneak attack undead) due to overinflated wbl in epic the wand is going to be negligible and allow you to kill undead as a rogue for 50 encounters.
Regardless dipping in cleric is strong even without that feat due to the domains you get from dipping into cleric.
You could also turn lich lords with a single cleric level if you get enough +X to effective cleric level for turning things (there is a scary amount of those if you are willing to read all the manuals)
That feat is good if turning matters to you specifically but I think that usually turning's usefulness depends vastly on the campaign.
Trying to qualify for cool rogue prcs that adds spellcasting is going to be overall more useful than that feat if you plan to be a rogue in spirit. (of course if you are going to be a cleric you could never take that feat or the rogue levels and be stronger because the added usefulness of sneak attack is very low when you are a cleric)

Huh and what? You just answered my question that you were trying to articulate the difference.I disagree 100%

[CopperElfCleric]

{Scrubbed}

[CopperElfCleric]

Also, it's a word in the class name.

Unless you run a world similar to that of Order Of The Stick, where classes, feats, and whatnot are tangible, in-world things, it's a collection of abilities with a general theme.

If you play a devout and pious Fighter, you could be called a Paladin, Knight, or Crusader in-world. If you play an Archivist who crusades, they could be a Paladin, a Cleric, a Crusader, or other terms in-world.

You repeated yourself twice.

Just saying.... you cannot beat the combination of Rogue 24/ Cleric 1 with the Sacred Outlaw feat

OR

Cleric 22/ Rogue 3. In game terms it's a broken lovable uncle.

Once again... you can destroy undead as a 25th level cleric and sneak attack as a 25'th level rogue. A slayer of the undead and the living.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Huh and what? You just answered my question that you were trying to articulate the difference.I disagree 100%

Gravestrike is a 1st level spell Cleric spell that let's someone sneak attack undead for a round. It doesn't scale with caster level, so (eternal) wands of it are cheap. As a Cleric, you could also just prepare it, and, even without DMM: Persist, have it up all day long.


You repeated yourself twice.

Just saying.... you cannot beat the combination of Rogue 24/ Cleric 1 with the Sacred Outlaw feat

OR

Cleric 22/ Rogue 3. In game terms it's a broken lovable uncle.

Once again... you can destroy undead as a 25th level cleric and sneak attack as a 25'th level rogue. A slayer of the undead and the living.

Or you could be a Cleric 25 and take the feat. You don't even need any Rogue levels. You just need +2d6 or more sneak attack. Numerous classes and other abilities grant that, and once you take Sacred Outlaw, you self-qualify. So there's never a moment where you run into potentially losing access to it.

Beyond that, Turn Undead isn't even that strong of an ability. It really isn't. Hordes of undead are going to be weak even before [Epic] levels that just attacking them with a mace should destroy them. Undead strong enough to pose a threat will typically have a ton of HD, because undead HD honestly aren't that great. Any undead that fits between those extremes, like a lich, is then also a powerful spellcaster with enough resources to protect against Turning.

Really, the biggest benefit of Turn Attempts is to power various [Divine] or [Devotion] feats, and practically none of those care a spit about how high your effective Cleric level is.

[CopperElfCleric]

... why not? CC is an overall great class, mountain of skills, lore, casting, extra domain. Nothing in it says they can't be chaotic. Any god can have a cleric, and by extension, a cloistered cleric.



Got any citation on that?

Nope, lol.

[CopperElfCleric]

Quote from UA: That's as far as it goes, really - it's not like the Bardic Sage variant class, which actually does prohibit chaotic (and lawful) bards.

Well, "dar she blows". lol

I agree... It's kinda hard to be a chaotic, mischievous vagabond, if you're nose is stuffed in a Library.

Key word = Cloistered. lol.

[CopperElfCleric]

Gravestrike is a 1st level spell Cleric spell that let's someone sneak attack undead for a round. It doesn't scale with caster level, so (eternal) wands of it are cheap. As a Cleric, you could also just prepare it, and, even without DMM: Persist, have it up all day long.



Or you could be a Cleric 25 and take the feat. You don't even need any Rogue levels. You just need +2d6 or more sneak attack. Numerous classes and other abilities grant that, and once you take Sacred Outlaw, you self-qualify. So there's never a moment where you run into potentially losing access to it.

Beyond that, Turn Undead isn't even that strong of an ability. It really isn't. Hordes of undead are going to be weak even before [Epic] levels that just attacking them with a mace should destroy them. Undead strong enough to pose a threat will typically have a ton of HD, because undead HD honestly aren't that great. Any undead that fits between those extremes, like a lich, is then also a powerful spellcaster with enough resources to protect against Turning.

Really, the biggest benefit of Turn Attempts is to power various [Divine] or [Devotion] feats, and practically none of those care a spit about how high your effective Cleric level is.

Semantics and power gaming is what that sounds like.

None of our gaming group, nor any of my fellow gaming friends play for power, or who is the better PC. To us... and I would imagine most folks who play D&D, do so for the flavor and thrill. Not so much about Maxing out your character.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Semantics and power gaming is what that sounds like.

None of our gaming group, nor any of my fellow gaming friends play for power, or who is the better PC. To us... and I would imagine most folks who play D&D, do so for the flavor and thrill. Not so much about Maxing out your character.

...Uh, your entire OP was about the (perceived) power of the feat in question?

[Thurbane]

Or you could be a Cleric 25 and take the feat. You don't even need any Rogue levels. You just need +2d6 or more sneak attack. Numerous classes and other abilities grant that, and once you take Sacred Outlaw, you self-qualify. So there's never a moment where you run into potentially losing access to it.

I was going to say the issue there is if you don't have Rogue levels, there's nothing for the feat to stack - but now that I re-read the wording, a pure Cleric could still benefit.

I would say not RAI, but pretty solid as RAW.

Now I'm wondering if there a similar ways to exploit the other theurge feats?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was going to say the issue there is if you don't have Rogue levels, there's nothing for the feat to stack - but now that I re-read the wording, a pure Cleric could still benefit.

I would say not RAI, but pretty solid as RAW.

Now I'm wondering if there a similar ways to exploit the other theurge feats?Tashalatora, for sure. You don't need monk levels to gain Tashalatora's benefits, since Monk 0 + Psion X = X. Unfortunately, it requires an entirely useless trash feat as a prereq.

[RandomPeasant]

None of our gaming group, nor any of my fellow gaming friends play for power, or who is the better PC. To us... and I would imagine most folks who play D&D, do so for the flavor and thrill. Not so much about Maxing out your character.

People make this argument all the time, and like so many arguments people make all the time, it is always wrong because it misses the point. People aren't concerned purely with power or purely with flavor. There is (almost) no one who would take an option that runs completely counter to their character's concept simply because it gets them a 2% power boost. And there is (again, almost) no one who would take an option that completely cripples their character simply because it's a good flavor match. Just because someone wants to play a character who is mechanically competent doesn't mean they don't care about flavor because, as Stormwind pointed out, flavor and mechanics are not opposed.