Switching Around Spell Casting Stats?

[Sergeantbrother]

I have been giving some thought to casting stats and have long wanted to switch around which attribute different magical classes use as their primary magical stat:

Wizards: Intelligence, as canon.

Clerics: Charisma. The cleric has a connection with deity, through that they gain their powers. They represent the will of the deity on earth, they win converts, their magic is tied to their force of personality almost like a holy aura that others can detect from them.

Druid: Wisdom, as canon.

Bard: Charisma, as canon.

Sorcerer: Wisdom. A sorcerer’s magic comes from within, it requires force of will to master, and Willpower is tied to Wisdom. It also represents a greater connection with themselves, more intuition, and so on: something that seems to go along with intuitive magic.

Warlock: Intelligence. As was originally planned, the Warlock uses intelligence. As a wizard, the warlocks studies ancient forgotten tomes and uses the knowledge he finds to contact and bargain with patron entities.

Lesser magic users:

Ranger: Wisdom (like a druid)

Paladin: Charisma (like a cleric)

Eldritch Knight: Intelligence (like a wizard)


This gives 2 Wisdom casters, 2 Charisma casters, and 2 Intelligence casters. Then the lesser casters use the same attribute as the full fledged caster of that type of magic uses.

Does anyone have thoughts about this:

[Mastikator]

I really like the idea of having it switchable (you choose when you make the character/take a level), but IMO it should depend on the sub-class. For example I'd give Sorcerer: Divine Soul the choice between charisma and wisdom. Aberrant mind and clockwork get to choose between intelligence and charisma.
Clerics with arcana, knowledge domain could choose between wisdom and intelligence. Trickery and Tempest I'd like them to choose between charisma and wisdom
All warlocks should get to choose between intelligence and charisma IMO

[Saelethil]

I’m with you on Wizards requiring Int.
Artificers and Eldritch Knights should stay Int. as well.
I feel like the rest could fit any mental stat. if it fit the character. I could see an Int. Cleric who spends most of their time studying ancient tomes. Cha. Druids with very fey like ways of interacting with those around them. Depending on the world building and rp I could even see a Wis. Warlock who was approached by a patron seeking observant followers.

[P. G. Macer]

I have been giving some thought to casting stats and have long wanted to switch around which attribute different magical classes use as their primary magical stat:
*snip*
Sorcerer: Wisdom. A sorcerer’s magic comes from within, it requires force of will to master, and Willpower is tied to Wisdom. It also represents a greater connection with themselves, more intuition, and so on: something that seems to go along with intuitive magic.

*snip*

Does anyone have thoughts about this:

Sorcerers don’t simply master and create an inner control to manifest their magic; on the contrary, the in-world stereotype about sorcerers is that they have difficulty controlling their magic. Also, willpower is not exclusively the domain of Wisdom. Charisma is about exerting your presence upon the world around you. The logic behind Sorcerers using Charisma, a default I agree with, is that they by sheer force of personality exert themselves to warp reality to their whims. “I want there to be a fireball at that point, and so a fireball there will be”.

[Saelethil]

Sorcerers don’t simply master and create an inner control to manifest their magic; on the contrary, the in-world stereotype about sorcerers is that they have difficulty controlling their magic. Also, willpower is not exclusively the domain of Wisdom. Charisma is about exerting your presence upon the world around you. The logic behind Sorcerers using Charisma, a default I agree with, is that they by sheer force of personality exert themselves to warp reality to their whims. “I want there to be a fireball at that point, and so a fireball there will be”.

The in game reason for it to be Cha. makes sense. I just feel that variety is the spice of life.

[Sergeantbrother]

Well, really, I could see just letting people choose the casting stat just like combat characters can choose Strength or Dexterity to attack and damage with. Then the player(s) and DM can come up with the justification for why your caster uses a particular attribute. Mental attribute anyway, choosing a physical attribute might be unbalancing even though I could see Constitution being used.

I still don’t really see Charisma for sorcerers. Of course, if people want to use Charisma for their sorcerer, that’s fine, but I think that what Charisma means has been really stretched into something that doesn’t really mean anything like Charisma. Because interaction with other humans isn’t really forcing your will on reality. A person with demonic ancestry having demon related powers might manifest superhuman charisma or even mind control powers, but that is only one aspect of such powers, if they instead manifest fiery powers I don’t see any reason why their Charisma should be related to those abilities. Willpower, which is tied to Wisdom, does make sense as a way to manifest any sort of innate power.

It seems like Charisma just basically became the default magic stat for every new magic type or user, not just in 5th edition but other D&D variants.

[Kane0]

My post from last time this came up:


I have an established houserule allowing:

Int Clerics
Int Warlocks
Wis Paladins
Wis Sorcerers
Cha AT Rogues
Int or Wis Bards (this one hasnt been tested as thoroughly, largely comes down to choice of subclass)

And one of my next character concepts if I ever get out of the DM chair is a Str Sorcerer which has me really excited.

Not sure if I would go for a Con full caster just in case my eyeball for balance fails me, but something like a Con 1/3rd caster (say for example an AT/EK analogue for the barbarian) or maybe even Ranger sounds fine IMO.

[Stangler]

I think the warlock should be totally reworked so that it isn’t about the stats of the pc at all but the gifts of the pact. So they can dedicate points based upon what they want to do. Certain abilities then depend upon what stats they chose. You could even make constitution their primary stat.

[GeoffWatson]

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters should have the option of Charisma based casting; part-Sorcerer instead of part-Wizard. Maybe restrict them to the Sorcerer spell list instead of Wizard.

[Saelethil]

I still don’t really see Charisma for sorcerers. Of course, if people want to use Charisma for their sorcerer, that’s fine, but I think that what Charisma means has been really stretched into something that doesn’t really mean anything like Charisma. Because interaction with other humans isn’t really forcing your will on reality. A person with demonic ancestry having demon related powers might manifest superhuman charisma or even mind control powers, but that is only one aspect of such powers, if they instead manifest fiery powers I don’t see any reason why their Charisma should be related to those abilities. Willpower, which is tied to Wisdom, does make sense as a way to manifest any sort of innate power.

It seems like Charisma just basically became the default magic stat for every new magic type or user, not just in 5th edition but other D&D variants.

I’ve heard people describe Cha. in D&D as innate Presence more than simple people skills which goes along with some of the spells that require Charisma saving throws (e.g. Banishment). The more presence you have the more people will notice you but unless you’re Proficient in any of the Charisma skills you’re edge is less about being good with people and more about just being noticeable.

[Kvess]

Sorcerer: Wisdom. A sorcerer’s magic comes from within, it requires force of will to master, and Willpower is tied to Wisdom. It also represents a greater connection with themselves, more intuition, and so on: something that seems to go along with intuitive magic.

3rd edition’s Will Saves still colour some players’ understanding of what Wisdom is. Willpower isn’t a stat in 5e — it is not mentioned in the descriptions of ability scores (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Ability%20Scores#content) — and Wisdom doesn’t make sense as it’s representation in most contexts.

Wisdom seems to be about awareness — tied up with insight, perception and connection to the gods or the natural world. It’s not what most people think of as willpower. Wisdom saves could be explained as focusing on those connections to the world around you to foil spells like Hold Person, which attempt to interfere with that connection.

Charisma might be closer but isn’t a perfect fit either. It used to refer to appearance or something like animal magnetism, but (with paladins and warlocks, as well as dragons, liches and vampires) I have the impression that it’s morphed into something more in line with wrath, conviction or righteousness, which is more interesting, but it’s generally not used to represent the persistence that we would associate with willpower.

Constitution, on its face, represents physical health and vitality, but it also allows spellcasters to maintain concentration on their spells after experiencing harm. That persistence in the face of harm sounds a lot like willpower to me.

I think the takeaway should be that ability scores in D&D are an arbitrary representation of characters for use in a game, and never were intended to represent a unified or deep philosophy of how the mind and body work.

I don’t think swapping in Intelligence or Charisma as a casting stat would particularly hurt game balance, but you might want to be careful with Wisdom — Wisdom saves are more common and perception (wisdom) allows characters to avoid surprise. I suspect that Wisdom's broader benefits are the reason why Clerics and Druids get access to less flashy spells by default, when compared to Wizards and Sorcerers.