So, Kobold Fight Club is shutting down...

[Lupine]

Exactly as the title says.
I don't know about anyone else, but I pretty much only used KFC for combat encounter generation. Was just super easy to look through KFC's filters, and pick out monsters.
But, it's down.
So, that makes me ask -- what good alternatives to KFC are there? I pretty much exclusively used KFC, and though I tried DnD beyonds encounter builder, I just don't like it's feel. Clunkier and less intuitive than KFC.

[Pex]

Sorry, we can't talk about Fight Club.

[Kane0]

Oh for real? That sucks, i use it a lot

Well donjon still has an encounter generator but not the challenge calculation, so not as good but i guess will have to do

[EggKookoo]

It's currently still running for me (https://kobold.club/).

But it's okay if it goes. After all, DnDBeyond has an encounter builder and they'll get it up and running any year now...

[Cheesegear]

So, that makes me ask -- what good alternatives to KFC are there?

A Google search [D&D Encounter Generator] will give you two or three (at least it did for me) with almost the same functionality that KFC has/had.

I hesitate to link them directly because I think they have copyrighted materials on them. But I promise you that you can find them just using a Google search.

[PhantomSoul]

It's currently still running for me (https://kobold.club/).

But it's okay if it goes. After all, DnDBeyond has an encounter builder and they'll get it up and running any year now...

I'm sure it'll be great.

[KorvinStarmast]

Did you and EggKookoo use blue text as an allusion to Viagra and the point of getting it up any year now? :smallconfused:

[P. G. Macer]

Did you and EggKookoo use blue text as an allusion to Viagra and the point of getting it up any year now? :smallconfused:

I’m pretty sure they’re referring to D&D Beyond’s encounter builder being in beta for a while now, and its progression rate meaning Pelor knows when it’ll be up and running officially.

[EggKookoo]

Did you and EggKookoo use blue text as an allusion to Viagra and the point of getting it up any year now? :smallconfused:

Seek development help if your new feature remains in alpha for more than four years.


I’m pretty sure they’re referring to D&D Beyond’s encounter builder being in beta for a while now, and its progression rate meaning Pelor knows when it’ll be up and running officially.

Indeed. DnDBeyond has a lot of incredible features, some of which exist!

[KOLE]

Indeed. DnDBeyond has a lot of incredible features, some of which exist!

This is one of the funniest comments I’ve ever seen on this forum. Can I sig this?

[loki_ragnarock]

Exactly as the title says.
I don't know about anyone else, but I pretty much only used KFC for combat encounter generation. Was just super easy to look through KFC's filters, and pick out monsters.
But, it's down.
So, that makes me ask -- what good alternatives to KFC are there? I pretty much exclusively used KFC, and though I tried DnD beyonds encounter builder, I just don't like it's feel. Clunkier and less intuitive than KFC.

WotC should just pay them for the code, hire someone to fix the JSON issue, and make it an official free product to help out DMs.

Because that tool - Kobold Fight Club - was what made DMing accessible and easy for me and likely countless other DMs.

And without DMs, this whole product they sell doesn't work.

Of course, I was of the opinion they should have just paid for MPMB, but a fillable, complicated, automated PDF character sheet isn't anywhere near as critical to their business model as making it as easy as possible for DMs to *let other people play the game.*

[MaxWilson]

WotC should just pay them for the code, hire someone to fix the JSON issue, and make it an official free product to help out DMs.

I agree, but (technical nitpick) it's not a JSON issue, it's a Google issue: the spreadsheets with the data are no longer available. Switching to JSON is a potential solution though so I see why you might call it a JSON issue. (I'm wading through the source code right now in fact trying to see how to do it. Edit: I hit too many annoying little issues like not being sure what format KFC wants its data in, and not knowing the Angular pattern for dependency injection. My attempt to plug the data right in is currently failing, and I'm out of time for tonight. My fork is at https://github.com/MaxWilson/kfc for anyone who is curious about the exact manner in which I failed.)

[Trafalgar]

It's currently still running for me (https://kobold.club/).

But it's okay if it goes. After all, DnDBeyond has an encounter builder and they'll get it up and running any year now...

Not working for me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seek development help if your new feature remains in alpha for more than four years. Alpha wishes it would remain in for that long ... :smallyuk:

Not working for me. Which is why that blue pill was sent to market successfully. :smalltongue:

[ProsecutorGodot]

Seek development help if your new feature remains in alpha for more than four years.

You write this as sarcasm, but isn't that exactly what they did when they restructured?

But really, I'm kind of shocked to see that the encounter builder hasn't changed in any noticeable way since the last time I looked at it... Gosh, I don't even know how many months ago. At least the mobile app has made some pretty noticeable progress, I'd probably be pretty comfortable using it as a standalone tool at a table game which is saying quite a bit.

[Dork_Forge]

So what is the issue and have they actually announced this?

Not only does it still work for me, I can access the Google Sheets with the data...

[MaxWilson]

So what is the issue and have they actually announced this?

Not only does it still work for me, I can access the Google Sheets with the data...

The issue is that Google sheets returns 404 for the data. If you have cached copies of the data, could you maybe send them to me? Then instead of trying to format my own data to fit the KFC schema, I can just directly plug in the data it was trying to retrieve.

I may try again tomorrow but for now I am stymied and need a break.

[Dork_Forge]

The issue is that Google sheets returns 404 for the data. If you have cached copies of the data, could you maybe send them to me? Then instead of trying to format my own data to fit the KFC schema, I can just directly plug in the data it was trying to retrieve.

I may try again tomorrow but for now I am stymied and need a break.

Yeah sure, I'll drop you some emails

[MaxWilson]

Yeah sure, I'll drop you some emails

Thanks, that is very helpful!

I can confirm that the issue is that trying to retrieve the data (e.g. https://spreadsheets.google.com/feeds/list/182Yo3lCbH4m9qmeqKIhUQunntAY06eNuumZVDnR6NNM/1/public/values?alt=json for the main KFC sheet) intermittently and often results in 404s instead of good data.

My plan is to clumsily modify KFC's source code so that these JSON responses are built in to the app instead of coming from Google docs. Same data, different source, should require fewer code changes.

Edit: It's not the same data. I can get Google sheets to spit out JSON, and clumsily modify that into JSONP, but KFC wants something called JSONP-in-script that I haven't figured out yet.

[GooeyChewie]

No more KFC? Great, now I'll have to go to THAC0 Bell!

[Hytheter]

No more KFC? Great, now I'll have to go to THAC0 Bell!

I was going to make a joke like this but it wouldn't have been nearly as funny.

[MaxWilson]

FYI, some work (https://github.com/Asmor/5e-monsters/pull/223) is underway to get Kobold Fight Club up again:

It hasn't been checked in to github yet, but I was able to get it up and running on my own fork (https://maxwilson.github.io/kfc/) (named "Kobold Fight Cemetery" just in case KFC never comes fully back online).

Anyway, for now I'm using https://maxwilson.github.io/kfc/ and hopefully it will work for you too. Remember that you need to set sources the first time you use it:

https://i.postimg.cc/9FJYSn0w/Screen1.png

https://i.postimg.cc/Jz05W5H6/Screen2.png

I claim no credit for the actual work done, and hopefully KFC itself will eventually come back online, but the Cemetery version is better than nothing at least for now.

[Kane0]

Kudos, much appreciated

[Libertad]

It's back on a new URL! (https://koboldplus.club/#/encounter-builder)

[EggKookoo]

The original link (https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) has never stopped working for me.

[MaxWilson]

The original link (https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) has never stopped working for me.

That's because of caching. If you try from a different computer it probably won't work.

[Yakk]

There is a quick and dirty way to build encounters from any monster-by-CR list.

First, calculate total PC levels. You can stop here, or you can give some bonuses to make it a bit more accurate:

Then add a "bonus" of 0.25 in T1, 1 in T2, 2 in T3 and 3 in T4.

If you want to go into details, also add 1 for every tier-appropriate attuned magic item they have.

Second, add up monster CRs. Now, to make this more accurate, some tweaks.

1. For monsters over CR 20, add (CR-20)*2 bonus.
2. Double CR under 1. Add 1 for each monster CR 1 to 4, and 1 for each monster CR 5 to 20.

Compare.

Monsters add up to 1/5 PCs: easy
Monsters add up to 1/4 PCs: medium
Monsters 1/3 PCs: hard
Monsters 40% of PCs: deadly

Be careful if a single monster's effective CR is more than double your PCs individual level.

Now, really, you should be able to work out what the multiplier of PC total level your PCs have been able to handle.

For simple encounters (like "one big monster" or "10 CR 1/8 monsters") this gives results similar to, but not identical, to standard encounter building. For cases like "one big monster with lots of CR 1/8 allies", this gives (in my opinion) superior results.

It is also really linear.

CR 1/8: 0.25 points
CR 1/4: 0.5 points
CR 1/2: 1 points
CR 1: 1.5 points
CR 2: 2.5 points
CR 3: 3.5
CR 4: 4.5
CR 5: 6 points
...
CR 20: 21 points
CR 21: 23 points
CR 25: 35 points
CR 30: 50 points

Party of 4, no items:
L 1: 5 (2+ deadly (2 CR 1/2), 1+ easy (CR 1/2))
L 2: 9 (3.6+ deadly (CR 3), 1.8+ easy (CR 1))
L 3: 13 (5.2+ deadly (CR 5), 2+ easy (2 CR 1/2)
L 4: 17 (6.8+ deadly (CR 6), 3+ easy (CR 3))
L 5: 25 (10+ deadly (CR 9), 5+ easy (CR 4))
L 6: 28 (11+ deadly (CR 10), 5.6+ easy (CR 5))
L 7: 32 (13+ deadly (CR 12), 6.4+ easy (CR 5))
L 8: 36 (15+ deadly (CR 14), 7+ easy (CR 6))
L 9: 40 (16+ deadly (CR 15), 8+ easy (CR 7))
L 10: 44 (18+ deadly (CR 17), 8+ easy (CR 7))
L 11: 52 (21+ deadly (CR 20), 10+ easy (CR 9))
L 12: 56 (23+ deadly (CR 21), 11+ easy (CR 10))
L 13: 60 (24+ deadly (CR 21), 12+ easy (CR 11))
L 14: 64 (26+ deadly (CR 22), 12+ easy (CR 11))
L 15: 68 (27+ deadly (CR 22), 13+ easy (CR 12))
L 16: 72 (29+ deadly (CR 23), 14+ easy (CR 13))
L 17: 80 (32+ deadly (CR 24), 16+ easy (CR 15))
L 18: 84 (34+ deadly (CR 24), 16+ easy (CR 15))
L 19: 88 (35+ deadly (CR 25), 17+ easy (CR 16))
L 20: 92 (37+ deadly (CR 26), 18+ easy (CR 17))

Adding 3 level appropriate items to a single PC boosts the groups deadly CR by 1.2 and easy by 0.6 (for sub-20 CR foes, and 0.4 for post-20 CR foes).

3 level 20 PCs with level-appropriate attuned items has deadly at CR 27 and easy at CR 20.

You can also tweak effective party level for character optimization.

The fun thing about this system is that it is linear. You can do stuff like ask "I have a blackguard. How many skeletons should I add to make the skeletons as big a problem as the blackguard?"

(Blackguard: CR 8, so 9 points. Skeletons CR 1/4 so 0.5 points. So about 18 Skeletons. Hmm, that is too many. How about 3 ghouls (CR 1, so 1.5 each) replacing ... 1.5/0.5 ... 3 of the Skeletons. 1 Blackguard, 3 Ghouls, and 9 Skeletons, total 18. Deadly encounter for L 9 party of 4, each with two level-appropriate attuned items.)

It ain't perfect.

Traditional (DMG) encounter builders multiply the "big beefy" dude's XP by a multiplier based on the number of skeletons, which is nonsense. This is closer to Tasha's.

[EggKookoo]

That's because of caching. If you try from a different computer it probably won't work.

Works fine from my work laptop as well. Of course now I'm going to get flagged by HR...

I've also tried on a third computer and it works fine there as well. The site doesn't just load (from the kobold.club domain), it's fully functional.

Edit: Now it's stopped working. Weird that it took that long...

[MaxWilson]

There is a quick and dirty way to build encounters from any monster-by-CR list.


...

Monsters add up to 1/5 PCs: easy
Monsters add up to 1/4 PCs: medium
Monsters 1/3 PCs: hard
Monsters 40% of PCs: deadly

...

It is also really linear.

Hmm, interesting! I'll have to look at your numbers more closely, but I've been trying to puzzle out the base assumptions behind DMG difficulty ratings for a while now, and maybe your method will help me spot some patterns.

Thanks for sharing.

[EggKookoo]

Hmm, interesting! I'll have to look at your numbers more closely, but I've been trying to puzzle out the base assumptions behind DMG difficulty ratings for a while now, and maybe your method will help me spot some patterns.

Thanks for sharing.

In my experience, it's more complicated than that.

Party of 4 PCs, average party level = 5.

They'll make mincemeat out an individual CR 5 creature most of the time.

They'll have a slightly harder time but still most often do okay against 2 CR 2 creatures + 1 CR 1 creature.

They'll have a "fun" fight against 5 CR 1 creatures.

They'll get pretty bruised up by 3 CR 1 creatures + 4 CR 1/2 creatures.

They'll deal well with 10 CR 1/2 creatures but expect to burn some healing.

Within a range of CR, action economy dominates.

Edit: Well, okay, Yakk might be saying the same thing in their post...

[Yakk]

Take the DMG table.

Do AC/10 * (10+ATK)/10 * Damage * HP / 8.

It is pretty close to the XP value of the monster. I mean, it is off by +/- 20% at some levels, so not *that* close, but pretty close.

The point is that monster XP is very roughly offence times defence.

If you have 1 monster with 4X offence and 4X defence, it is worth 16 times the XP of a monster with X offence and defence. But 16 of those small monsters, barring amazing AOE, are going to be much more dangerous.

On the other hand, facing those 16 monsters one at a time is going to result in roughly the same amount of damage. They last 1/4 as long, and do 1/4 as much damage while around; 1/4 * 1/4 is 1/16 as much damage per monster you fight.

The DMG encounter size multiplier attempts to thread this needle. It is roughly N^gamma, where gamma of 2 would be a situation where multiple monsters are effectively fuzed into one, and gamma of 1 means multiple monsters are fought one at a time, and one where the PCs are assumed to single-target damage each monster in turn, then move onto the next, while all of the enemies attack gives a gamma around 1.7.

The neat part is, if we map the XP back to CR, the gamma of encounter size multiplier is similar to the root we raise the XP to get a decent approximation of CR. The non-linearity of the threat-by-CR (it is affine, not linear) makes a power function a decent fit for most levels where the calculation is sensitive.

It is most sensitive to cases where you have lots of small foes, and measuring easy/deadly in those cases. This only mostly happens with CR 1 and below enemies, hence the fudge factors there.

You can improve the fudge factors.
CR/Level:threat
0 : 1/8
1/8: 1/4
1/4: 1/2
1/2: 3/4
1: 1.25
2: 2
3: 3
4: 4
5: 6
6: 7
7: 8
8: 9
9: 10

Then, starting at 10, add +2 threat per CR/level instead of +1.

10: 12
11: 14
12: 16
13: 18
14: 20

Starting at 15, add +3 threat/level instead of +2
15: 23
16: 26
17: 29
18: 32
19: 35
20: 38

Starting at 21, add +4 threat/level instead of +3

21: 42
22: 46
23: 50

Starting at 24, add +10 threat/level instead of +4.

24: 60
25: 70
...
30: 120

Using the 2x multiplier for a group of 5 and the above threat levels we get a match:
5 CR 1/8 monsters is 250 XP, about CR 1
5 CR 1/4 monsters is 500 XP, about CR 2
5 CR 1/2 monsters is 1000 XP, about CR 4
5 CR 1 monsters is 2000 XP, about CR 5
5 CR 2 monsters is 2 * 5 * 450 = 4500 XP, about CR 9.
5 CR 3 monsters is 2 * 5 * 700 = 7000 XP, about CR 11.
5 CR 4 monsters is 2 * 5 * 1100 = 11000 XP, about CR 14.
5 CR 5 monsters is 2 * 5 * 1800 = 18000 XP, about CR 17.
5 CR 6 monsters is 10*2300 = 23000 XP, about CR 19
5 CR 7 monsters is 10*2900 = 29000 XP, about CR 20
5 CR 8 monsters is 10*3900 = 39000 XP, about CR 22
5 CR 9 monsters is 50000 XP, about CR 23
5 CR 10 monsters is 59000 XP, about CR 24
5 CR 11 monsters is 72000 XP, about CR 25
5 CR 12 monsters is 84000 XP, about CR 26
5 CR 13 monsters is 100000 XP, about CR 27
5 CR 14 monsters is 115000 XP, about CR 28
5 CR 15 monsters is 130000 XP, about CR 29
5 CR 16 monsters is 150000 XP, about CR 30

This boost to CR 10+ monster's threat matches the DMG chart a bit better, but is also more fiddly.

[Cheesegear]

it's fully functional.

As usual...

A party with 3 or less characters has their encounter difficulty modifier increased by 1 row.
A party with 6 or more characters has their encounter difficulty modifier decreased by 1 row.
Is this taken into account? ...Nope.

I derp'd.

Also, I still can't select a filter for monsters that can possibly be found in Every Environment.
Or, perhaps more accurately, if you select an environment Filter, it wont take into account those monsters that can be found in - literally - 'any' environment, because the source data - that is, the DMG - has a flaw in it. Most people aren't going to program what isn't on the page.

:smallsigh:

[MaxWilson]

As usual...

A party with 3 or less characters has their encounter difficulty modifier increased by 1 row.
A party with 6 or more characters has their encounter difficulty modifier decreased by 1 row.
Is this taken into account? ...Nope.

Yes it is. E.g. set number of players to 1 and load 1 Fire Giant. Adjusted XP is 7500. Change players to 4, and it drops to 5000.

You might be looking at Total XP instead of Adjusted XP. Total XP is 5000 regardless of how many players there are.

[Cheesegear]

Yes it is...

I actually derp'd.

I thought the rule was three or less.
The rule is less than three (i.e; Two or less)
...I've been playing that rule wrong for a long, long time. :smallsigh:

[jaappleton]

Seek development help if your new feature remains in alpha for more than four years.



Indeed. DnDBeyond has a lot of incredible features, some of which exist!

I have been cackling for several minutes at this point.