Is regeneration (good) a fun mechanic to deal with?

[Boci]

So two players, with an NPC, recently fought a devil. None of them had knowledge planes, so I threw them a bone and had the NPC give a vague, "Some fiends can only be properly killed with holy magic". So fast forward, a not too difficult, but tense fight, I've described how it keeps healing and drawn attention to the one time they druid used a spell with the good descriptor. The fiend is now unconscious, but not dead, and they have no source good damage left. Neither of them know the regeneration mechanic enough to know a work around. They were near a portal to hell, so they just tossed the unconscious but still healing form into it and then moved a distance away to rest, and hoped it didn't come back and attack them during the night or the next day. Luckily for them, it didn't.

Was regeneration making that experience better? Unlike a troll, where fire can be accessed in some form by most parties, if you don't have good damage, you don't have good damage. Future editions of D&D removed regeneration's ability to work at 0 HP barring a special ability (called I believe Troll Healing in both). Should that be adopted here? The fight was over, they won, all regeneration was doing at this point was denying them the satisfaction of doing anything but temporarily inconveniencing the devil.

There are also work around, which the players didn't know of. Should I have told them one, maybe with a check?

This is the second time this has come up. Previously, a different group of players fought a devil in the sewers beneath a city, and where unable to over come its regeneration, so one went up to the marked and bought...a holy weapon or two scrolls of some good spell, whilst the rest of the party stayed down taking turns stabbing it so it wouldn't regain consciousness. So, not as impact but ultimately still just busywork after the fight was done, I guess it did force the party to split, but nothing came of it that time at least.

[Darg]

There are other ways to kill a creature with regeneration and if they didn't listen to the hint you gave, then their dissatisfaction is theirs to own. Let them live with the consequences. It's part of the fun of the game. Sometimes I wish I could go back and not have the knowledge myself about creatures. The first time my group faced one of these creatures, we camped out in shifts to keep the creature unconscious while the group spent a couple days experimenting with different things to try and kill it.

To put the experience into perspective, with this encounter they learned that they can and should experiment. Your group learned that outcomes may not be what they want. On the positive end, you can have this villain make a comeback and threaten them once again. Honestly, it's so much more fun to have comebacks when it's the party's actual mistakes that led to it. It makes it personal and something that seems obvious once you learn what is happening. I'm actually excited for you and your group.

[Teth]

Regeneration is great at making things harder on your opponents when the fight is otherwise somewhat balanced, but it doesn't do you jack good when you're helpless. Nothing is stopping the people that can't figure out how to make you stay dead from shoving a spike through your head to keep you down, tying you into a meatball, then hauling you back to town to ask what the heck they're doing wrong. Or else burying it and letting it be the problem of whoever thinks it's a bright idea to dig up sealed ancient evils a thousand years later.

[Particle_Man]

We once killed a troll by drowning it. There are ways.

[Jack_Simth]

We once killed a troll by drowning it. There are ways.
From the OP: "None of them had knowledge planes" and "Neither of them know the regeneration mechanic enough to know a work around"

Yes, there are ways to kill a devil when you don't have any [Good] weapons or spells. Absolutely. The OP is fully aware of it, that's not the question. The problem is that the players didn't know them, in or out of character. The questions are essentially "Is this good for the game?" and "Should it be handled differently?"


Or else burying it and letting it be the problem of whoever thinks it's a bright idea to dig up sealed ancient evils a thousand years later.
The problem isn't necessarily that someone thought digging it back up was a good idea... it's that all the warning signs were destroyed by time & weather, or perhaps simply weren't understood due to language changes. It's quite plausible for the "digging back up" to be completely accidental.

[Emperor Tippy]

Regeneration is a perfectly fine mechanic. Hell, you could have done an entire quest with the party having to wail on the devil regularly to keep it at negative HP while they drag the unconscious fiend back to town to figure out how to permanently end it.

D&D is not, and should not be, a game where "I hit it with a stick" can solve all problems.

[Vaern]

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace.
Once they've managed to drop the target, finishing it off shouldn't be an issue.

[ciopo]

Once they've managed to drop the target, finishing it off shouldn't be an issue.
The coup the grace still needs to be dealing lethal damage iirc, to trigger the save or die

[Boci]

Yeah, I feel there are several potential problems with thew RAW. Notable, yes, you can deal with regeneration good without good weapons or spells, but then its the riddle problem. You're no longer testing the character's abilities, you're testing whether the players know the fine points of the regeneration mechanic. (And unlike riddles which can at least have any number of answers, this one is always the same).

Then there's also just, the counter intuitiveness. As mentioned, the players had one good spell, they used against the fiend as it tried to hack their faces, and did negligible amount of lethal damage to it. Had they waited until they had dropped the fiend, the single spell would have then killed it properly, but I feel we can forgive the players for not realising the correct sequencing.

As for the idea of making the devil a reoccurring villain, I hadn't planned for that, it was a random encounter, and whilst I'm fine with reoccuring villains rising organically, a sdand devil has 6 int, so I'm not sure they're the best material for this. I understand you couldn't have known this Darg, just clarifying that angle.

I'm not saying regeneration (good) should never be used, but I do see some problems, its doesn't look like the mechanic that is good for all players, and I'm not surprised future editions dropped the undying aspect of regeneration on pretty much everything that wasn't a troll or terrasque.


D&D is not, and should not be, a game where "I hit it with a stick" can solve all problems.

Oh don't worry, the player's weren't like that. If was a sand devil, and it has halo of sand that abrades creatures within it for 2d6 damage per round. Of of the players conjured water, reasoning that wet sand would fall rather than swirl, and I felt that was clever enough and so I halved the aura's damage to 1d6. So they were thinking, it wasn't just a slog fest, but they couldn't figure out a way past the regeneration.


Once they've managed to drop the target, finishing it off shouldn't be an issue.

Not by RAW, the follow up sentence of the rule you quoted is "The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage." so you can only coup de grac it unless its with a damage type that overcomes the regeneration. Yeah I know, weird wording.

[ciopo]

Then there's also just, the counter intuitiveness. As mentioned, the players had one good spell, they used against the fiend as it tried to hack their faces, and did negligible amount of lethal damage to it. Had they waited until they had dropped the fiend, the single spell would have then killed it properly, but I feel we can forgive the players for not realising the correct sequencing.
Not really, they would still need to deal lethal damage equal to the devil total HP. Just because a creature is unconsious because nonlethal damage is more than their current HP doesn't make them suddenly keel over from a single point of lethal damage. Especially if whoever attacks isn't declaring a coup de grace.

This in part is a matter of presentation, was it well telegraphed that *that* attack left a mark that wasn't healing *at all*?

Lacking the IC resources to "learn the thing", I feel they did good by throwing it back in a portal and hope for the best

[Boci]

Not really, they would still need to deal lethal damage equal to the devil total HP. Just because a creature is unconsious because nonlethal damage is more than their current HP doesn't make them suddenly keel over from a single point of lethal damage. Especially if whoever attacks isn't declaring a coup de grace.

Right you are, I was thinking of pathfinder, where they tweaked regeneration to have it shut off for a round when you overcame it.


This in part is a matter of presentation, was it well telegraphed that *that* attack left a mark that wasn't healing *at all*?

Yes, I mentioned it a few time midfight, so I think they picked up on it, and the NPC with them mentioned needing "holy magic", so they players definitely knew by then, they even discussed it OOC, but didn't have a source of good damage, the druid had used their only good spell already in the fight.

[Fizban]

Without things that are supernaturally hard to kill or keep dead, a lot of the supernatural threat that makes PCs necessary is lost.

The main hack around regeneration, as noted, is suffocation. Unless the creature also doesn't have to breathe, beating it unconscious virtually guarantees the PCs can kill it, if they try everything. Or beheading/dismemberment and separation- many or even most can regenerate limbs, but it takes a special note to let them regenerate a head/from just a head/survive beheading.

It sounds like while your players did try different types of damage, they didn't try assaulting basic bodily functions once it was unconcious. If my players were stymied, I would first remind them that with an unconscious foe they are no longer limited to combat actions, and if they gave up and wanted their characters to solve it for them, I'd make up some amount of time it takes for them to realize they forgot something on the list of ways to make things die.

[Emperor Tippy]

Again, just keep beating it unconscious and drag it back to town if all else fails.

Regeneration means you can stack up all the negative HP that you want on the subject. A few minutes of the whole party wailing on the unconscious fiend and you can stack up enough damage to keep it out for a very long time. Even Regen 5 means that every round you deal 10 points of damage to it buys you an additional round of not having to attack it. A party of four who can average 20 points of damage each per round to the unconscious (and thus helpless) creature would, after ten minutes (100 rounds) have enough excess damage to keep the creature unconscious for more than two and a half hours.

[Thurbane]

I don't feel calling out the players as "playing the game wrong" for not having multiple sources of good-aligned damage is particularly helpful.

Given that they didn't fully understand the mechanics of regeneration, probably safe to assume they are new-ish to the system.

Yes, D&D promotes having a golf-cart (or at least golf-bag) of weapons/items (or a full caster with system mastery) to deal with DR, regeneration and the like - but I call that more a system issue, than the fact newer players who haven't achieved system mastery may not have X, Y and Z ready for every contingency.

[Darg]

As for the idea of making the devil a reoccurring villain, I hadn't planned for that, it was a random encounter, and whilst I'm fine with reoccuring villains rising organically, a sdand devil has 6 int, so I'm not sure they're the best material for this. I understand you couldn't have known this Darg, just clarifying that angle.

Unlike earlier editions, Int above 3 has no real effect on the actual intelligence of a character in 3rd. You don't become dumber by taking int damage/drain. At worst, your int skill checks drop and you lose access to spells. It only has an effect when you drop below 3 where you are as smart as an animal to 0 where you are functionally brain dead.

That said, I also like to put emphasis on the stats as character influencing traits. It helps keep people from dumping stats because their character can't be how they imagine them if they do. I get where you are coming from.

I still think it was an ok thing to have occurred. It wasn't the main villain so they aren't robbed of the big payoff. A lot of people when playing games don't realized that we are creating stories. While this may not be an extremely memorable story, it's the failures and lack of conclusion that can contrast with a successful ending to make it really pop and be memorable. It's these small events that will make a story unique and unlike the story of someone else when thought back upon. Is the ability actually fun? No. However, it does create scenarios where certain characters can shine which is fun. Just because it didn't happen this time around doesn't mean it can't happen in the future.

[Bohandas]

In the computer adaptation of Temple of Elemental Evil the game let you kill regenerating creatures with a voup de grace attack

Maybe use that rule?

[Boci]

Again, just keep beating it unconscious and drag it back to town if all else fails.

This thread isn't about how to deal with regeneration, its about what to do if players don't know these or figure them out IC, and how much of a problem that is, if at all.


Without things that are supernaturally hard to kill or keep dead, a lot of the supernatural threat that makes PCs necessary is lost.

I disagree with this, in that regeneration counts. As mentioned, once the regenerating creature is unconscious, is basically down to whether or not you know how to "hack" it, and that applies equally to PCs and NPCs. Regeneration necessitates PCs in that it allows a monster to kite a larger number of weaker enemies more reliably, which fast healing would be just as good at.


Or beheading/dismemberment and separation- many or even most can regenerate limbs, but it takes a special note to let them regenerate a head/from just a head/survive beheading.

This I feel is a reasonable take, but maybe not the only one. Vorpal doesn't mention it either way, so it comes down to the DM to decides how scientific they're going to be. I assume you're going off the logic that regeneration doesn't stop suffocation, and a decapitated head can't breathe without lungs, but I feel some Dms might decides that too technical. Is there some hard RAW I missed?

Similar is the previous idea that lodging a spike in its brain will prevent regeneration. Perfectly reasonable, but i feel some DMs may allow the monster to regenerate regardless and pull the spike out (though if its chained up that might be less of an issue, depends on what other abilities they have).


It sounds like while your players did try different types of damage, they didn't try assaulting basic bodily functions once it was unconcious. If my players were stymied, I would first remind them that with an unconscious foe they are no longer limited to combat actions, and if they gave up and wanted their characters to solve it for them, I'd make up some amount of time it takes for them to realize they forgot something on the list of ways to make things die.

Yeah, I might try dropping these hints next time. Another idea is to have them roll knowledge (other creature with regeneration), so local for trolls, maybe dungeoneering since one aberration is bound to have one, and then tell them how those monsters can be defeated, and maybe the same applies to fiends.


I don't feel calling out the players as "playing the game wrong" for not having multiple sources of good-aligned damage is particularly helpful.

So what would you do if some players stumped by a defeated enemy they couldn't stop regenerating? Give them an OOC hint, or let them live with it and maybe arrange a future encounter with an NPC who can share a story of how they over came such predicament themselves?


I still think it was an ok thing to have occurred. It wasn't the main villain so they aren't robbed of the big payoff. A lot of people when playing games don't realized that we are creating stories. While this may not be an extremely memorable story, it's the failures and lack of conclusion that can contrast with a successful ending to make it really pop and be memorable. It's these small events that will make a story unique and unlike the story of someone else when thought back upon. Is the ability actually fun? No. However, it does create scenarios where certain characters can shine which is fun. Just because it didn't happen this time around doesn't mean it can't happen in the future.

This is fair. As I noted they were able to walk away victories and in one piece, and yeah the desert devil (not sand devil as I said earlier, that was my mistake) isn't meant to be a major player in the game, but the fact there there is a portal to hell nearby is, so the players likely will be back, and when they return they will likely be better prepared.


In the computer adaptation of Temple of Elemental Evil the game let you kill regenerating creatures with a voup de grace attack

Maybe use that rule?

That's an idea if I feel going through the final touches would just be busywork.

[Thurbane]

So what would you do if some players stumped by a defeated enemy they couldn't stop regenerating? Give them an OOC hint, or let them live with it and maybe arrange a future encounter with an NPC who can share a story of how they over came such predicament themselves?

If anyone has Knowledge (the planes), I might fudge a roll to let them remember how the regeneration works for the devil.

Or maybe after the adventure, telling tales at a tavern, a crusty old retired adventurer overhears, and chimes in with how he and his party used to deal with regeneration "back in the day".

If neither of these are feasible, maybe have a quick chat with the players, and say they might want to OOC brush up on a couple of the more common monster special abilities and attacks, and think about ways they can deal with them, given their resources.

[icefractal]

The counters to regeneration are a bit unintuitive, IMO.

Like - just beating on for a few minutes, repeat as needed. This works great, but if I didn't know the mechanics I probably wouldn't expect it to work. Continuing to pound on someone that's already been reduced to a chopped up pile of meat doesn't seem like it would really make a difference.

Likewise, suffocation. I don't even know whether this was intended, seems like more of an oversight, but either way it doesn't entirely make sense. Not breathing is a problem, but having your organs cut into pieces is an even bigger problem. Something like a D&D Troll which can survive having most of its body shredded - that seems to imply independent, self-organizing cells powered by magic / zero-point energy. At which point breathing seems pretty optional.

Both of those would make more sense if Regeneration was just "can't die from normal injuries sustained in combat, still dies if someone cuts it into pieces", but it explicitly isn't. IMO, "normal" Regeneration should work that way, and a few creatures like Trolls/the Tarrasque/etc can have "Total Regeneration" which comes with immunity to most other physiology-based effects.

[Fizban]

I disagree with this, in that regeneration counts. As mentioned, once the regenerating creature is unconscious, is basically down to whether or not you know how to "hack" it, and that applies equally to PCs and NPCs. Regeneration necessitates PCs in that it allows a monster to kite a larger number of weaker enemies more reliably, which fast healing would be just as good at.
Low level NPCs generally don't survive long enough or have the ability to reliably outpace the monster's per round healing (high level NPCs are NPAdventurers). A bog-standard naked Troll takes something like 12+ hits to down while itself downing 2-3 warriors per round and recovering 1 hit per round. It can be killed by normal people, if they have a small army and favorable terrain or the morale to lose a whole lot of people. The devil with regeneration/holy I see most often is the Abishai (because Tiamat has her own special line of semi-draconic "devils" and zomgDragons!), and even the weakest of them (as presented in FC2) has flight, DR/Good, and AC 22 (originally /+1 and 17 in MoF). Good luck having normal people with normal weapons shoot that thing down- and even if they do have say a 5th level bruiser/archer who can hit the AC to hide behind, if they don't have a specialized Good weapon they may just sit there desperately unable to keep the damage on it.

Thus, the need for PC adventurers. Who eventually have around 3x the gear of same-level NPCs (presumably the PCs are assumed to win because of their ridiculous wealth?) while making adventuring their day-job so they should be investing in anti-DR/regeneration weapons, and, with the standard party after the 3.5 update, the ability to cast Align Weapon via their Cleric. Note that the PCs shouldn't have to make a skill check to know about these things: the existence of monsters that get up when they should be dead should be a foundational known fact, and since people sell those fancy weapons that deal with X, and the PCs shop in shops and commission items from people who make those fancy weapons, they should be aware if for no other reason than the sales pitch. Walk into a weapon shop and the dealer is likely to ask if you're buying for personal defense or monster hunting, and if it's the latter, immediately recommend buying a nice mace or short blade in case of skeletons or zombies, or some cold iron or silver depending on which dangerous part of the woods you're going to.

It's the X/good that is the limiting factor, since the constant material for beating that is hidden in Book of Exalted Deeds, still costs 2,000gp, and is usually ignored because you can cast Align Weapon/higher level monsters want both material and alignment while Frystalline is incapable of having both. But it can theoretically be found in any Small Town, so PCs that have shopped for weapons at any city of such size could be aware of it.

Oh, and now I finally remember Holy Water, the core consumable that can coup de grace X/Good. Technically since "good aligned weapons and spells" is not actually a centralized damage type "Holy," each monster's retelling can be different and some will mention Holy Water and some not, but I would not allow such a backwards ruling against. If a prepared adventurer carries a few flasks of holy water, they should have a number of effective coup de grace uses (Sneak Attack can pump up the DC). Holy Water is explicitly sold at zero profit to adventurers, by the same people who cast the healing spells and make the healing items, so again any adventurer that hasn't been living under a rock can justify already knowing this (including passing the information on to the player without a roll, if they don't know).


This I feel is a reasonable take, but maybe not the only one. Vorpal doesn't mention it either way, so it comes down to the DM to decides how scientific they're going to be. I assume you're going off the logic that regeneration doesn't stop suffocation, and a decapitated head can't breathe without lungs, but I feel some Dms might decides that too technical. Is there some hard RAW I missed?
I'm going off the logic that Regeneration says nothing about surviving without a head- I in turn find the ruling that the lethal damage requirement prevents beheading (or that a creature which regenerates limbs will also regenerate its head or entire torso) to be the overreach- that rule is clearly there to prevent coup de grace (and probably Death Attack) from automatically finishing things, but Vorpal has its own special rules that call out the exceptions which can survive, and yet make no mention of regeneration or regenerating limbs. Vorpal doesn't even care about DR. And in either case, dismemberment is not an attack: it's something that can be done (only) when there is no reason you couldn't do it, and it has whatever effects it should have. The DM can decide that regeneration is so pernicious even beheading doesn't work, but when dismemberment, separation of the pieces, and destruction of the head have all been standard tropes for permanently putting things down since before DnD existed, cutting off (heh) that option without explicit support from the rules is done at their peril.


Similar is the previous idea that lodging a spike in its brain will prevent regeneration. Perfectly reasonable, but i feel some DMs may allow the monster to regenerate regardless and pull the spike out (though if its chained up that might be less of an issue, depends on what other abilities they have).
Now this is one I'd never heard until that tv show Heroes, though it was probably in comic books long before then, and I would say this does go against the DnD aim. This trope is rooted in the idea that whatever heroic/supernatural/etc ability is keeping the thing alive comes from the brain, which is not DnD regeneration. Extraordinary regeneration does not come from the brain: it comes from a body that can partially regrow itself, something that some real animals can do, but now at fantasy speeds. Supernatural regeneration comes from a body that does so via magic so innate that it cannot be interrupted except by certain anathemic materials or properties. Maybe for a psionic monster, but nothing else, and it would set a bad precedent if the players happened to spike a psionic regeneration and then last had to fight a monster with regeneration and no head to spike.

If you remove the head of a regenerating monster, its body drops to the floor. And yet, it should keep regenerating, until it is dead- which with no brain to trigger the lungs will likely be yes, via suffocation in a few minutes. For a body that doesn't rely on brain triggered lungs, it would last until it died of thirst or starvation, which could allow quite a bit of "free food" as it were. A body (and head) that doesn't need to eat, drink, or breathe, and has supernatural regeneration to excuse an infinite violation of conservation of mass, could survive being separated indefinitely and regenerate the head even if physically mangled, but going by basic creature types this only possible for Elementals.

So if you happen to find an Elemental with regeneration, I suppose that could survive being beheaded indefinitely until its body was brought back together, as long as one or the other isn't destroyed completely by an effective means first.



Like - just beating on for a few minutes, repeat as needed. This works great, but if I didn't know the mechanics I probably wouldn't expect it to work. Continuing to pound on someone that's already been reduced to a chopped up pile of meat doesn't seem like it would really make a difference.
This requires the DM to get gory in their description. The damage is nonlethal for the creature, but still horrifically lethal to anything else. "Beating" it hundreds or thousands of hit points past unconscious is basically smearing it into a bloody paste across the floor, and watching as the bits crawl back together and new flesh bubbles up out of nowhere.


Likewise, suffocation. I don't even know whether this was intended, seems like more of an oversight, but either way it doesn't entirely make sense. Not breathing is a problem, but having your organs cut into pieces is an even bigger problem. Something like a D&D Troll which can survive having most of its body shredded - that seems to imply independent, self-organizing cells powered by magic / zero-point energy. At which point breathing seems pretty optional.
The Troll's Ex regeneration is beyond realistic, but by being non-magical is still supposed to draw from somewhere non-magical. It can regenerate limbs, but no mention of creating a new torso from the head- so the torso must contain a reservoir of ridiculously dense energy which its cells can spin into new mass. But it still needs to breathe- and for the generation of new mass, might be said to be consuming huge amounts of carbon dioxide (for carbon) to supplement their reserves, as well as the oxygen needed to burn the stored troll-fats. That can even be why the concept of "troll fat" as an alchemical/magical/whatever component is a thing. So trolls should be heavier, suffocate faster if anything, and produce a non-magical fantasy substance that stores ridiculous amounts of energy and mass (and consume ridiculous amounts of food to do it).


Both of those would make more sense if Regeneration was just "can't die from normal injuries sustained in combat, still dies if someone cuts it into pieces", but it explicitly isn't. IMO, "normal" Regeneration should work that way, and a few creatures like Trolls/the Tarrasque/etc can have "Total Regeneration" which comes with immunity to most other physiology-based effects.
It would be sensible to simply draw the line at magical/non-magical, but since they want a bunch of "alignment" regeneration and the general allowance of any possible supernatural conceit, while Ex abilities are often still physics breaking, it all comes down to how regeneration is written. Regeneration is one of those not-actually-very-standard standard abilities with a shared core mechanic, but every individual monster also needing its own re-definition and explaining of that monster's specific rules. Basically what you're asking for is already supposed to be done by the monster entry itself: that's why they specify whether it can regenerate limbs, and if so how fast, and then the Tarrasque has its super absolute no not even then description. Though it might not seem like this since for some reason there are very few monsters with regeneration that don't regenerate limbs- like everyone writing such a monster immediately says "yeah of course my monster is too cool to not regrow limbs!," nevermind that it has no mechanical advantage and makes them all look the same. Well, that and a massive portion of regenerating monsters are Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Trolls or Crazy Dave's Discount Formula-Generated Outsiders.

[Thurbane]

As much as I kind of despise D&D and it's reliance on gear/items, trollbane (Dungeonscape) is quite handy. Creatures lose their regeneration against a single attack delivered by a weapon treated with trollbane. So beat something unconscious, then CDG it with a scythe or whatever that has trollbane applied.

Might be useless for devils, though. The description of trollbane says it "functions as injury poison", and devils are immune to poison.