Spell resistance item pricing

[Biggus]

I came across an item in Magic of Faerun called Aribeth's Ring, which gives SR17 and costs 50,000GP, and it occurred to me that by the time a character could afford that, it'd be almost entirely useless. Then I looked at the other SR items and they're all priced similarly highly, the only exception being the Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance (the linear pricing given in the DMG for non-armor SR items means that at high epic levels they eventually become quite cheap...).

Is this deliberate? Should SR items be largely kept out of the hands of PCs (if so, why include them at all...?)

If not, any thoughts what would be a better pricing structure for them?

[Teth]

Generic spell resistance items are "10,000 gp per point over SR 12; SR 13 minimum."

Or else, it's a 5th level spell with minimum CL 11 for SR 12 + CL. Taking SL * CL * 2000 for a continuous item, or in other words 10000 * CL, and CL is 1-20 we get the same equation as above. The difference is that you're not normally allowed to use a CL below the minimum needed to cast the spell, which the explicit costing implicitly makes an exception for.

I won't get into daily or consumable versions, they're cheaper but the rational response to somehow knowing the boss is casting a big spell on you is never going to be "stand there for a round while you buff SR."

SR exists largely so high-end beings get an extra layer of defense before having to save. It's not supposed to be trivial to get as a constant effect, and constant magic items in general are quite expensive unless you out-level the spell effect in question. Mind you, wondrous items with even 0th-level spells on demand can provide meaningful qualitative benefits.

Also, throwing this out there, but the easiest way for a party to access SR isn't magic items, it's a cleric with persistent spell and some way to barrel roll out of the +6 SL cost (Divine Metmagic, Illumian with Naenhoon, etc.). More so if you've got someone with a Runecaster PrC and they end up shoving it in a pet rock.

[Crake]

I won't get into daily or consumable versions, they're cheaper but the rational response to somehow knowing the boss is casting a big spell on you is never going to be "stand there for a round while you buff SR."

The spell resistance spell lasts long enough that it would likely be a buff you cast beforehand when you know you're going into a fight with a caster.

[Teth]

The spell resistance spell lasts long enough that it would likely be a buff you cast beforehand when you know you're going into a fight with a caster.

It does, but then it's competing with every other 5th circle spell (or lower) you could be buying a wand of with that money. And if it's strong enough to help you, any caster that isn't an idiot is going to change tactics, at which point you get a dispel magic, or a rock to mud, or an orb of acid, at which point SR is meaningless.

It's not that there aren't situations where it's useful. But because of limited budgets / WBL, those amount to having external funding for a climactic battle against some big bad, or else having found the thing in a chest and getting in a fight where you need every edge you can get before you've had a chance to sell it.

[Fizban]

Spell Resistance items are potentially quite useful if the DM wishes to throw lots of low level monsters with at-will SLAs at the party: it doesn't matter that the SR is less effective (but still some percentage effective!) against monsters at or above their level, it matters that the SR can dramatically reduce the effectiveness of groups of much lower level monsters with innate magic which is otherwise unavoidable. And if the DM likes using mobs of PC-classed NPCs? It's hilariously easy to field a "level appropriate" encounter where enough of the casters will win initiative and just blast a PC out of existance even without much optimization, using a variety of no-save spells that they cannot possibly have an individual resistance or immunity to for each. Or even just with magic items of attack spells, which use minimum caster level. Spell resistance items (and keeping lol-nonmagical-magic out of the game) is an option that allows a passive defense.

For example, Avorals might be considered a usable summon due to their spam of Magic Missile, and even at CR 12 a high level party could face four or more. But with only CL 8, a item of say SR 19 cuts that in half. Even monsters with CL 12 (such as a Succubus or Erinyes, more easily blocked with Magic Circle) or 15 still need to roll a 7 (so 30% chance of complete failure) or 4 (still 15% chance of complete failure). Mephits are CR 3 (much like Shadows) and thus supposedly no threat at all to someone high enough level to buy a serious SR item, even by the dozen, but a dozen spells is a dozen spells. Several monsters have PC spellcasting approximately equal to their CR, which means that even without PC-classed NPCs you could still face four or more "trash mobs" spamming unblockable spells. Mind Flayers in paticular have CL 8 on their psionic Charm Monster and Suggestion SLAs, or 9th level manifesting, and their Mind Blast is also marked as an SLA.

A standard Mantle of Spell Resistance's SR 21 (90k) is still capable of causing failure on even a caster of 9th level spells (unless they're specifically packing Spell Penetration), basically giving you a chance to "crit-dodge" some of the nastiest things in the game even if your saving throws are so bad they're unsalvageable and you haven't had time to buff, as well as a 40% miss chance against the outsized caster level on some CR 8ish foes like the Succubus/Erinyes, 60% vs Mind Flayers, 85% against swarms of CR/CL 3 foes like Mephits, and of course 95% against basic 1st level casters.

So the high level character with an SR item is much like the high level character with a high end Ring of Energy Resistance (Greater for 30 points is 44k): specialized against a certain type of foe which they presumably fight often. I might even take an SR item over say, a Ring of Spell Turning, which only works on directly targeted spells and only for 9 levels per day, where the SR again works on anything every time.


Spell Resistance the spell is just a good solid-to-possibly-required buff for fighting high level foes with SLAs. Greater Spell Immunity is the best defense against say, Blasphemy, but Spell Resitance gives a defense against almost anything even if you don't know exactly what you'll be facing.


It does, but then it's competing with every other 5th circle spell (or lower) you could be buying a wand of with that money. And if it's strong enough to help you, any caster that isn't an idiot is going to change tactics, at which point you get a dispel magic, or a rock to mud, or an orb of acid, at which point SR is meaningless.

It's not that there aren't situations where it's useful. But because of limited budgets / WBL, those amount to having external funding for a climactic battle against some big bad, or else having found the thing in a chest and getting in a fight where you need every edge you can get before you've had a chance to sell it.

If you don't consider the standard, expensive, always-on passive items the game was written with "competitive" against consumables and later printed daily charge items and spells which deliberately break basic foundations of how magic is supposed to work, then yeah you're never going to like the standard SR items.

As for the enemy changing their tactics- you presume that they have all those spells available. Which they don't. They have whatever the DM actually built them with, if they're a caster, or whatever else is written in their statblock if you're looking at monster SLAs. Foes with low level casting are the primary thing an SR item would defend against, and sure it's most useful in the first round before they realize you've got SR. And then you get to take your turn, after which these much lower level foes might very well not get a chance to "change tactics," assuming they even have some spell that would be appreciably useful, when they should have been using their most powerful spell on that first turn. And monsters tend to have very themed abilities that don't include most lol-nonmagical-magic spells at all.

[Maat Mons]

Fairly pricing SR is tricky. Many spells ignore it. Assay Spell Resistance gives a +10 bonus to overcome it. It blocks beneficial spells from allies.

Daazzix’s Vest seems to represent some reconsideration on pricing by WotC. It's 25,000 gp for +5 to your existing spell resistance. That's half what it would cost to bump the SR of another item up by the same amount.

And if you play a creature with innate racial SR that automatically scales with level, Daazzix’s Vest synergizes with it. Baruars have SR = 11 + character level for +1 LA. And Drow have the same SR for +2 LA. So with the vest, you could wind up with SR = 16 + character level, which would be like a 75% chance to avoid spells from equal-level casters... except for how it's easy to get bonuses to overcome SR, and many spells ignore it outright.

If your group uses LA buyoff, playing a Drow or whatever would eventually stop being crippling. And then when you can spend 25,000 gp, you'll have a fairly effective way to stop your allies from being able to buff you in combat. ... And also it might do a little bit against enemies, depending on poorly-optimized they are.

[Teth]

As for the enemy changing their tactics- you presume that they have all those spells available. Which they don't. They have whatever the DM actually built them with, if they're a caster

I assume they're aware of the basic vulnerabilities of their class, like SR, and have tactics to deal with it, particularly when they're high enough level that their enemies have enough wealth that a party decked out in matching cloaks of spell resistance is a legitimate concern.

It doesn't have to be those specific spells. If nothing else, a sane caster should have escape tactics ready if it turns out that their prepared or remaining spells are insufficient to solve the situation they find themselves in.

If neither of those things are true, then the DM has thrown a caster-shaped punching bag at you so that you can have fun knocking it down, in which case all of this is kind of moot anyway.

[Biggus]

SR exists largely so high-end beings get an extra layer of defense before having to save. It's not supposed to be trivial to get as a constant effect, and constant magic items in general are quite expensive unless you out-level the spell effect in question.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that I want SR to be trivial to get as a constant effect. If you spend your entire wealth on a SR item, it will prevent about 30% of spells from a similar-level caster, and if you spend a more realistic 25% of your wealth, about 10% of spells. As far as I can see, at the current prices it's not only not trivial, it's so expensive that it's only use is against monsters who have SLAs with low caster levels.


Spell Resistance items are potentially quite useful if the DM wishes to throw lots of low level monsters with at-will SLAs at the party: it doesn't matter that the SR is less effective (but still some percentage effective!) against monsters at or above their level, it matters that the SR can dramatically reduce the effectiveness of groups of much lower level monsters with innate magic which is otherwise unavoidable. And if the DM likes using mobs of PC-classed NPCs? It's hilariously easy to field a "level appropriate" encounter where enough of the casters will win initiative and just blast a PC out of existance even without much optimization, using a variety of no-save spells that they cannot possibly have an individual resistance or immunity to for each. Or even just with magic items of attack spells, which use minimum caster level. Spell resistance items (and keeping lol-nonmagical-magic out of the game) is an option that allows a passive defense.

Good point, this isn't something I do much to my players, but SR is a lot more useful if the DM does this a lot.



A standard Mantle of Spell Resistance's SR 21 (90k) is still capable of causing failure on even a caster of 9th level spells (unless they're specifically packing Spell Penetration)


...or a Third Eye Penetrate for only 8,000GP, or they have Assay SR, or True Casting, or Create Magic Tattoo, or a Ring of Arcane Might, or an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, or...

This is part of the reason I think SR items are overpriced, there are lots of ways to increase your caster level and by the time they can cast high level spells most casters will have one or more of them.



Daazzix’s Vest seems to represent some reconsideration on pricing by WotC. It's 25,000 gp for +5 to your existing spell resistance. That's half what it would cost to bump the SR of another item up by the same amount.


Good point, I hadn't thought about DV. Half their current price seems a lot more like what SR are worth to me.

[Crake]

It does, but then it's competing with every other 5th circle spell (or lower) you could be buying a wand of with that money.

Well, wands only go up to 4th level, so you'd be buying just a scroll or two, which are far cheaper and less of an impact on your total wealth.

[Fizban]

...or a Third Eye Penetrate for only 8,000GP, or they have Assay SR, or True Casting, or Create Magic Tattoo, or a Ring of Arcane Might, or an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, or...

This is part of the reason I think SR items are overpriced, there are lots of ways to increase your caster level and by the time they can cast high level spells most casters will have one or more of them.
Only one of those items is core (I was expecting Robe of the Archmagi as the counter, which is itself an SR item worth far more on the pricing table than what it's given*). A bunch of spells and items printed later because people couldn't handle the idea of their spells actually ever failing, as always, don't affect the original intent and goals. If the SR items are overpriced because someone added a bunch of items that beat it, it's not the SR item that's wrong. And even if you do consider those anti-SR items fairly priced based on your expectations of PCs vs monsters, that still doesn't affect the use of SR items in PCs vs monsters. Unless you're turning your monsters' treasure into optimized items. It also seems a little weird to me to not only optimize your low level NPC gear vs the PCs, but so hugely against a specific type of defense that is almost never granted except via item. And even a high level NPC caster has much, much less gear than a PC, to the point that I would find spending heavily on caster level bonuses very questionable when they need to actually survive the PCs first.

And wow, really? They actually priced a spell penetration bonus that low in XPH? Yup, they sure did. Given how often people claim psionics is just fundamentally more balanced, I find it all the funnier when something busted shows up.

*Checks; Yup, that's a massive 3.5 buffing. The original item was actually pretty bad: a +5 AC when you could either cast Mage Armor or buy a higher Bracer bonus, Spell Penetration as the feat so it doesn't stack if you already took the feat (which was a pretty solid idea back when it was the only way to increase that check), and a +1 resistance on saves that doesn't stack with the cloak you should have already had- it's basically best for NPCs and the starting gear of high level characters. . . who want its SR 18.


Good point, I hadn't thought about DV. Half their current price seems a lot more like what SR are worth to me.
There have been several items to increase innate spell resistance, though since that's not a normal PC ability and I don't care for Drow, I couldn't tell you what their prices are without trawling the books to find them first.

Let's look at some break points: Halving the price means SR 13 is 5k, and SR 21 is 45k. This means a 7th or 8th level character can have SR 13 after their essentials without much trouble (around 25% gear), and SR 21 shows up by 15th. A 10th level character might go for SR 16.

Even at half price, if you're assuming anti-SR items and spells, I'm not seeing it as worth. It's obviously that much better against SLAs though.

[Emperor Tippy]

SR isn't exactly bad, but it runs into the issue of competing for a finite amount of WBL space.

[Teth]

Well, wands only go up to 4th level, so you'd be buying just a scroll or two, which are far cheaper and less of an impact on your total wealth.

There are ways to make a 5th level spell be 4th level. Also wand-equivalent options with no level limit. But we're both picking nits at that point, when the meat of the argument is that options don't have to just be useful on their own, they also have to be better than the other stuff that could be occupying your WBL.

[Biggus]

Only one of those items is core (I was expecting Robe of the Archmagi as the counter, which is itself an SR item worth far more on the pricing table than what it's given*). A bunch of spells and items printed later because people couldn't handle the idea of their spells actually ever failing, as always, don't affect the original intent and goals. If the SR items are overpriced because someone added a bunch of items that beat it, it's not the SR item that's wrong.

There are other ways in core to boost your caster level: Bead of Karma if you're a divine caster, or spell power from Archmage, Red Wizard or Hierophant. But you're right, in later books they came out with a plethora of ways to boost it, making SR much less valuable. Tbh I don't mind the fact there are lots of ways to get a +1 or +2, if you want to put a lot of resources into beating SR you should get what you paid for. But True Casting and Assay SR make SR into a joke for those classes that can cast them, I'm considering banning or nerfing them tbh.


SR isn't exactly bad, but it runs into the issue of competing for a finite amount of WBL space.

This is part of what I was thinking, if I'm going to spend 25% or more of my total wealth on an item, it needs to be really useful. Unless you're in the kind of campaign Fizban mentioned where you're fighting a lot of mobs of low-level opponents who spam you with spells or SLAs, at the current price SR items aren't even worth considering.